233 - 2019 Review of Bourbons and 2020 Predictions
The Bourbon Pursuit team takes a minute to look back on some of our favorite podcasts we recorded this year. We also look at all the bourbons that were released in 2019 (around 55) and Ryan and Kenny vote on their favorite while we have to wait for Fred. Then we take some time to look into 2020 with what we think is going to happen with TTB labels, marijuana, tariffs, and the 3 tier system in 2020. We wrap up the show giving our individual 2020 predictions about barrel programs, secondary markets, and other legalities. Happy New Year! Show Partners: At Barrell Craft Spirits, they spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. Joe and Tripp meticulously sample every barrel to make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: Barrel Picks: https://www.patreon.com/posts/jack-daniels-wow-32305844, https://www.patreon.com/posts/eagle-rare-with-32446056 This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about barrel char. What was your favorite episode of 2019? What was the most awkward episode? Bourbons released in 2019. What do you see on the horizon for tariffs and the export market? Do you think we will see a marijuana or CBD infused whiskey in 2020? Will TTB crackdown on new COLAs in 2020? Do you predict a shakeup in the 3 tier system? Will we see the rise of the big secondary groups in 2020? Other predictions for 2020.
26 Dec 2019
245 - COVID-19 Effect on Bourbon and Blanton’s Hysteria on Bourbon Community Roundtable #42
On this episode, we discuss two topics that are top of mind. First, is the Coronavirus and how it's impacting the bourbon industry. Then we take a look at the hype and hysteria that surrounds Blanton's. We dive into the recent news of Blanton's Gold making its way to the US and if we think $120 SRP is a deal you should jump on. You will hear a new voice for a few minutes and that is Aaron Goldfarb. You may have seen his work on various publications around the web. He wasn’t able to stay on due to some technical difficulties, but we hope to have him on again soon. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Barrell Craft Spirits has a national single barrel program. Ask your local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: Barrel Shortage: https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-there-a-bourbon-barrel-shortage-on-the-horizon This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about taxes. What are distilleries doing for coronavirus? History of Blanton's. How did Blanton's become so popular? Will limiting the purchases of allocated items work? Why don't distilleries use technology to manage this problem? Blanton's Gold coming to the US. Is it because of tariffs? Are they taking away from the European allocation? How can you make more product with only one warehouse? Will quality suffer with increased production? What other companies have a similar strategy to Blanton's? What do you think of the price point? Will Straight from the Barrel ever come to the U.S.? Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com, Jordan from BreakingBourbon.com , Brian from sippncorn.com, and Aaron Goldfarb for joining.
19 Mar 2020
224 - 2019 Bottled-in-Bond Showdown
Bottled-in-Bond. It’s one of the revolutionary moments of American history, but has also become near and dear to many bourbon drinkers with good reason. We covered the in and outs of bottled-in-bond with Bernie Lubbers back on Episode 089 and it's part of our Bourbon 101 podcasts. Since we know why bottled-in-bond is important, it’s time to find out who Bourbon Pursuit is going to claim as the best bottled in bond bourbon in 2019! We blind sample our way through 12 heavy weight contenders and put them in the Bottled-in-Bond Showdown. Who is going to be crowned champion? Listen and find out. Show Partners: * Hotel Distil on historic Whiskey Row is set to open October 29th in Downtown Louisville. Book now to experience it for yourself at HotelDistil.com. * The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/pursuespirits. * At Barrell Craft Spirits, they spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. Joe and Tripp meticulously sample every barrel to make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. * Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. * Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: Elijah Craig Launching Kentucky Straight Rye Whiskey: https://www.instagram.com/p/B3wt1feHdlZ/ Amazon Gin: https://www.beveragedaily.com/Article/2019/10/21/Amazon-launches-its-own-spirits-brand-Tovess This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about premium pricing. What is Bottled-in-Bond? Blind tasting of the following (in no particular order): Heaven Hill Bottled-in-Bond 7yr Henry McKenna Single Barrel Bottled-in-Bond George Dickel Bottled-in-Bond Old Bardstown Bottled-in-Bond Old Grand Dad Bottled-in-Bond 1792 Bottled-in-Bond Evan Williams Bottled-in-Bond Jim Beam Bottled-in-Bond JW Dant Bottled-in-Bond Early Times Bottled-in-Bond New Riff Bottled-in-Bond Wilderness Trail Bottled-in-Bond 0:00 I love bourbon, but I'm not ready to restart my career in be a distiller. I have a bachelor's degree and I want to continue to use those skills in the whiskey industry. So check this out. The University of Louisville now has an online distilled spirits business certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry like finance, marketing and operations. This is perfect for anyone looking for more professional development. And if you ever want to get your MBA their certificate credits transfer into Ul's new online MBA program. Learn more about this online program at U of l.me. Slash pursue spirits. How fast can you go through like 15 Bourbons? I'd be done. Now if you aren't asking me so many questions. 0:55 Welcome back. It's Episode 224 of bourbon pursuit. I'm wanting to host And here's your weekly bourbon news roundup. Last Thursday, heaven Hill announced Elijah Craig is launching their Kentucky straight rye whiskey. This is made from heaven hills only right Nashville which is 51% rye, 35% corn and 14% malted barley, the same Nashville that you're going to see for Rittenhouse as well as Pikeville with an SRP of only 2999 Elijah Craig Kentucky straight rye whiskey will first launch unlimited markets of North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia and Oregon in January of 2020. Now, when you hear about a release like this, we typically hear about most people, especially in Kentucky, being kind of upset about its lack of market penetration. So we actually reached out to our contacts at heaven Hill to see what the response was. And this was a decision by the brands to focus on markets based on a variety of needs. This could be from building a brand on premise competitiveness and a particular market or too slow roll a product based on age inventory. For this release, there was no one single reason but you can read more about this post on Instagram with the link in our show notes. Jim Murray's whiskey Bible has announced that last week his top whiskey of 2020 was 1792 full per second was the 2018 William drew Weller and third was the 2018 Thomas HND, meaning that Sazerac swept all top three whiskeys of the world for Jim Murray's whiskey Bible. Now continue on the trend of Buffalo Trace, they are also releasing their next installment in the old charter oak series called Canadian oak. In late 2018, Buffalo Trace announced its old charter oak series, it's a collection exploring the different taste profiles of barrels obtained from trees grown in different countries, climates and soils. For this newest release, Buffalo Trace obtained a small number of barrels from Canada and filled them with mash number one. This is the same Nashville us for Buffalo Trace and Eagle rare Canadian oak trees differ from a American oak trees that they are harder and have tighter grain structure, which affects the bourbon as it ages. The old charter oaks Canadian oak was aged for 10 years and will be available in retail in late October. The suggested retail price will be 6999. While we're talking about new releases, let's not forget about angel's envy and their annual cask strength release. angel's envy cast drink begins West standard angel's envy bourbon, it's made with a Nashville of 72% corn, 18%, rye and 10% malted barley, aged first in new charred oak barrels, but finished in barrels at once held port wine. As these barrels are tasted throughout the year. A few are set aside to age longer MB bottled at cash drink for its special annual release. This year's release will clock in at 122.4 proof with seven different ages as port finished bourbon of 689 10 1314 and 15 years old, that are missing To create this final blend, the bottle will come in a packaged in a wooden Art Deco style box for a suggested retail price of around $200. And the last release we're going to talk about isn't actually bourbon. It's not actually even whiskey. It's a gin and it's called tow service. And it's only available in the United Kingdom, France and Germany. This is a big deal because the owner of this brand is none other than Amazon. Yes, Amazon is getting into the spirits business. And this is now available to order firstname.lastname@example.org this is another one of those things that we may see as a small ripple but could potentially end up being a tidal wave years down the road. You can read more about this with the link to beverage daily com in our show notes. Bottled in bond. It's one of the revolutionary moments of American history but has also become near and dear to the hearts of many bourbon lovers and with good reason. We covered the ins and outs of bottle and bond with Bernie lovers back on episode 89, and it is also part of our bourbon one on one podcast on our website. But now, since we know why bottle and bond is important, let's move on to what bourbon pursuit is going to claim as the best bottled in bond bourbon in 2019. We take a total of 12 heavyweight contenders and put them in a blind and what we're calling the bottled in bond showdown who's going to pull ahead and become the champion this year? Well, just wait and find out. All right, let's get down to it. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 5:36 Hi, Joe from barrell bourbon here, myself and our master distiller triple Stimson spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. We meticulously sample every barrel make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. lift your spirits with barrell bourbon. 5:50 I'm Redman Aiken. This is above the char this week's idea comes from Patreon subscriber Brian Shabbat. He asks should bourbon enthusiasts stop complaining and embrace premium pricing for premium bourbon. MacAllan. 25 year old for $2,000 is acceptable. But 1500 for Pappy 20 is considered price gouging. Brian also wants to know what's the possible economic implications for premium pricing. Now this story really goes it's really goes back to the 1960s when bourbon is kind of changing its business model up until the 1960s. You saw bottled in bond bourbon and even straight bourbon is really kind of competing with scotch as a premium on the shelf even cognac so cognac would have been you know another brand he's would have been considered the creme de la creme and scotch and bourbon were kind of, you know, neck and neck scotch was also dubbed more blends they were so this was when scotch was predominantly a blended category. Now the 1960s scotch starts going toward a more premium ization and they focused on single malts, while bourbon decided to do things like lower their proof points from like 100 or 107, to 86 and 80. And they started becoming the everyday man's whiskey. And so they were basically setting the market up to take on the blue collar workers, the people who were fixing sinks and doing construction and in the military, everything that they were doing was really geared around people who had a budget. Well, scotch was focusing on the people on Wall Street and bankers and people who own businesses. They put a lot of effort into, you know, building this esteem. At the same time, they were also putting away whiskey. They were putting away a lot of whiskey, though at age up to you know, 50 years and today we see him coming on the market for a million or more at auction. Now today, bourbon is so popular that distilling have had to increase your prices to kind of deal with demand and it's often gets pushed back. And there's one brand that always comes out as unpopular in this conversation. And that's Pappy Van Winkle. Now, when we when Brian asked about 1500 dollars for Pappy 20 it always has to be pointed out that the distillers are not the one setting that price that is not the MSRP for Pappy Van Winkle. And so the argument can be made that the MSRP is for these premium Bourbons don't necessarily reflect what people are willing to pay. So the question is, should people increase their suggested retailers price? Yeah, I don't know. I think it's still pretty cool to have a glimmer of hope that maybe you can get a bottle of four roses limited edition for the MSRP of 100 or 150, or whatever it is versus 500 to 1500 that you'll find it in some retail stores, but it also gives bourbon a little bit of a black guy. As It's never good to increase prices 200 400 600% year after year after year, and that's essentially what's happening right now. So there is a way to increase prices, and I just don't know what the best way is. scotch on the other hand, doesn't seem to be short of those million dollar bottles anytime soon. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char become a Patreon subscriber and share with me your ideas you can check us out at bourbon pursuit on Patreon. Until next week, cheers 9:41 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon and today Yeah, yeah boy. We are the trio we're back here again with an awesome as can be a fun episode. But first, you know, I gotta say that shout out to hotel distil. This is where we're recording today. We're actually in the barrel room here and this is located on historical Whiskey row is going to be opening on November 1 here in downtown Louisville. It's going to be a place that has, you know, first we talked about it on the last podcast, it is used to be the home of JTS Brown. It's got an exciting history and it's now transformed into this beautiful beautiful space. So it's going to be designed to really ignite your passion for discovery and will be the anchor for levels revitalization and refinement of bourbon culture. You can book a your true authentic experience and stay at Hotel distil.com 10:31 So is it that is it is it is very nice. 10:34 Yeah, very sweet. Excited now I'm excited to kind of see what's going to happen if you're watching this on video they talked about so they haven't these barrels behind us and they've got taps on them they're gonna be having barrel aged tap cocktails like right here with inside of this room. So I'm kind of I'm kind of stuck. Yeah, they 10:48 will actually be aging in the barrel. They're going to be in like a sleeve or a bladder, because that's the only way you can technically do that legally. 10:58 Like Like a bottle of wine. So They'll 11:00 be they will be pre like Franzia. Yes, it's like the bag. 11:04 Yep, front front. 11:06 The back before 11:09 I've done it on a boat once or twice. Yeah. So if you've never played that game before, ask somebody that has a boat on the lake in front. Franzia. 11:17 Alright, so that's the bag. Let's go 11:19 All right, let's go. So what we're gonna do today is we're going to slap the bottle and bond This is going to be the bottled in bond showdown. So we are selecting what we can find as one of our favorites have 12 different bottle of bond every day and I think we got one that's outside of Kentucky we got one George decal, but the other ones these are all Kentucky. And you know, this was a combination of grabbing stuff in our basements heading to go into the liquor store and, and, and finding these and, you know, I think it's gonna be kind of fun to kind of go through this because, you know, Ryan, I'm the I'm going to test your knowledge real quick because you know, we've We've talked about bottle on the bottom on the show before we've had Bernie lovers on give folks an understanding of what the bottle and Bond Act and what it was really there for. Gosh, I 12:09 feel like that's a Fred question. I don't know. 12:12 I'm gonna put you on the spot here. Let's let's do flex some 12:14 civil so we'll get it we'll get him back. Okay. Well you know it has to be at least four years old right? 12:19 Huh? 12:20 It has to state the distilling season. Is that right? I don't know if it's 12:27 distilled in a singer to be distilled in a seagulls 12:29 Yeah. Okay. See I've already got it wrong keep going 100 proof obviously as being bonded warehouse now obviously. The what else am I missing? 12:41 So it has to be distilled at one distillery in one distilling? $1 one. Okay. And has to be 100 proof at least four years old. Gotcha. 12:50 Yep. So I hit them all. You 12:52 hit all the major points and then they need to disclose the the distillery and all that stuff where it's bottled. Yeah. And this is it. This is a Guys, I, I know we see this on the bottle and we look at it for like quality purposes. But I want people to realize how important the bottle and Bond Act of 1897 was it First of all, Grover Cleveland signed this into law. This was his last thing he signed in his in his first term. And he was the, you know, the bottle and Bond Act was really our very first consumer protection legislation as a country. So now we have all these protection measures to help us as consumers and it really begins with bottled in bond with the government trying to protect us from bad whiskey. And then, but medicinal circles and it's important to note that they've had a lot of backlash like the blenders and the rectifier. Canadian whiskey makers were very much against the bottle of Bond Act. So this was one of the first times that the Kentucky distillery community banded together for a single cause and that was to get this passed. Now they just Sue each other. 13:55 They still help each other here and there but they still reasonable This is a 14:00 true part of part of the game. Now the way I feel like I'm looking at the longest shot ski ever, like I feel like I'm about to do like my 21st birthday it is we've got we've got 12 different Bourbons that are lined up and these were, these were ones, you know, we've got one that is kind of the newest addition to this, which is the new seven year old bottle and bond. And you know, there was, it was funny because I was actually going trolling to the liquor store last night and I was I was actually flabbergasted. I was like, man, I forgot how many bottle of bond Bourbons there were out there. And then Natalie that is a great values to well, and that's what they usually are typically good values. But you know, some of the ones I selected, you know, I was going through and I was looking, you know, there were also you know, there's there's bottle of bonds that are coming from Oregon and other places. But I said let's focus on some of the stuff that's pretty regional that or should I say not regional, but pretty national can be found on a national level. at the same exact time. You know, there's also a lot of Bourbons out there that are hundred proof, but it doesn't actually say bottled in bond or bond. The word bond is not on the package. So I just overlooked it and said we'll go on that Yeah. And then you know probably there's there's probably two more that should be in here that just couldn't bring it to get our hands on it because this is Louisville and people go crazy because it's bourbon is the EH Taylor brands so the small batch and the single barrel are not a part of this big idea. I saw that bottle and I was going to bring it in but I was like, I'm not gonna share that those fuckers 15:25 I'm kidding go the value for giving me the other side of this is we didn't choose any of the highly allocated releases. You know, the old Fitzgerald spring and fall releases the Parkers 24 year bottom bond also we also didn't bring any media samples. So these are all things that we actually physically purchased and that's very important to note because most competitions are they get their whiskey from the supplier, so the distilleries will send it into the competition. So these are guaranteed all have came from a retailer. 15:58 Well, Justin full full disclosure this seven Hill bottle and bond did come from heaven Hill really this was the media sample they sent everything else though has been purchased by us in some way in some way shape shape or fashion it's a it all goes in the bourbon pursuit credit card 16:15 right that's right so so that's why we're not getting checked on this person. 16:21 Alright, so let's go ahead Well, we got we got 12 to go through so we'll dive in kind of start with the first kid I 16:27 remember we I said wanted to talk a little bit about the the 16:32 smell my glasses, so I'm just trying to make sure that there's the same because they're not number. First of all this tasting is is is flawed because we don't have the same glass for every one of them. So we will now have to like take into account some of them are neat pores are neat glasses. I would say we've got 95% majority Fiverr and the Glen Campbell and Karen but this is that this is close enough. 16:57 fault brought the nega Lazarus That's the only thing I can tribute it was the wrong glass. 17:02 But it's okay but so that's the it's the only thing and this is this is actually a pretty small flight for like a for like a blind tasting this is all blind we don't know what we know that these brands report but we don't know in what order and as we're tasting you know we're gonna find out what we gotta gotta eliminate all you gotta eliminate and everything but I think we should we should also give our notes to the audience as we're as we're thinking. 17:27 Absolutely. So we'll go with number one I you know, for me, I'm going to be excited to kind of see how this is going to go down because what, two years in a row, Fred's over there talking about Henry McKenna being the best there is in the world and yet now we're let's see, now we're going to now we're going to 17:43 that was in that was in a competition by the way, I was just one Judge of like, 40. Now I'm one of three. 17:51 We're narrowing it down. We're making the competition better though. 17:54 The first one, I'm definitely picking up some grainy notes. 18:00 These are gonna be Yeah, they're all gonna be young. 18:02 So when they're gonna, you know, there's there's definitely going to be some 18:06 that are. Most of 18:08 them I'd say are probably for younger, right, you know, we brought in. They can't be younger than for for older. Yeah, yeah. So the one thing that I think is we're going to find unique as we go through here is there's gonna be one that's going to be sort of an outlier. And that's going to be the 1792. Because the bottle and bond that the 1792 pick is actually a store selection, right? So it is a single barrel, it's a one off, it's not going to be some of the the normal 1792 UCO. Let's just 18:36 take that I know what do we want to do are we want to rank them one through three, or we want 18:40 to say best, I'd say you pick your top three. 18:43 Let's pick our top three. Okay, so by tasting number one, I'm eliminating it from my round, it's just too grainy. It's very alcohol forward. 18:52 If you were to if you were to try to pinpoint number one 18:54 and number two, number two, if it's not the decal one 18:59 I'll be sure Then you shouldn't be at San Francisco anymore. Yeah, 19:04 that's number two's nose. Yeah, 19:06 that's, that's deco all right? Yeah. But you know, and the thing is like, this was a the decal is a recent entrant to the market. And I think it's it's gone over fairly well with the community of people that are, you know, getting into it trying Tennessee bourbon and stuff like that. And so there is an opportunity to actually have George tickled, so be a part in here. 19:27 So what's our teen year in it? 19:28 So this is so this George decal doesn't have an age statement on it. They do have it they have a 13 year release. Okay. And this is the non age dated version though. Yeah. 19:40 actually enjoy it. 19:41 Yeah, I mean, one one thing I would say about decal Is it is it is often flawed and competition because it that particular note, that kind of like morality, the Flintstones a note really can stand out in a bad way for a taste Yeah, so if you're in if you're tasting a sea of things that are very Carmel forward and vanilla, and you get that note it can be very off putting or it can be very good and can help it stand out and yeah, so it's like it's one of those it's either love it or hate it in competition. 20:16 Yeah, that one I didn't get the vitamin D on the front end but it's really there on the finish 20:21 on I would recommend I would recommend Also make sure you rent when you get like some of that lingering, 20:26 lingering taste in your mouth and kind of rinse it out. Yeah, I could see that. I mean so frightening number one was read. 20:32 Just Yes. 20:33 I would say if I'm if I'm and this is the hardest part of a blind tasting is picking out what it is right. But I would say it's definitely one of the younger ones. I probably put it in a league of like JW dance or, you know, maybe, maybe the Evan Williams but I don't know. 20:52 Okay, kind of the month ago, it had like a cinnamon spice finish that I usually get an old old markdowns, maybe that could be way off. 21:00 I'll tell you to it it is like, if you're focusing on what it is instead of right what is best in the flight, then you're not then you're not focusing on the tasting. So I will will start I would recommend like trying to like figure out what they are later because that can actually be fun and I'm already 21:18 moving on to number three is notebooks like a notebook so you can pick one of them just said negative negative that's how I that's how I did it. 21:26 Now I just moved on to number three now I love the nose on number three I thought of this that's great care Marburg can move forward. Yeah, nice to the taste ended up being a little I don't want to say bitter but kind of thinned out and a little astringent towards the end. So I like you give the thumbs up in the nose. The taste is like in the middle and the finishes kind of 21:47 blow I actually think the the the palates got it like this kind of a cool lady. That's got like a KoolAid aftertaste. 21:55 Yeah, like fake sugar. Yeah, like, kinda it's process flight. Kinda we hack Kool Aid packs like when you take a Crystal Light pack and just 22:05 you just spoon Did you forgot to 22:07 put water in it? 22:08 Three put three is a maybe 22:12 it's a maybe 22:14 it's a maybe it's a maybe when we go down here and 22:17 there's a chance 22:18 there's it there is a chance that it could it could go somewhere. Yeah. So Fred kind of talk about, you know, when we got all these bottles of bonds up here. I know you've got a you've got a hard on from McKenna a little bit, but kind of 22:33 blind tasting candy. There was 22:36 help. That's what he told 22:37 me. It'd be like a $10,000 scotch. Wow, it's just one vote in that I'm bad at them. 22:43 You know, I guess Fred, you know, one one new entrant that we actually have up here that I think is might hopefully blow some socks off. And it's kind of a riff, new riff, right, 22:54 focus on what it is focus on the whiskey. No, 22:56 no, no, but I kinda want to talk about you know, new riff and You know how they got late You guys are just like we're trying to work here. He's like 23:08 now I'm gonna think it's a new roof now. 23:10 Well, I mean, I just kind of want to talk about you know, their bottom and bond, you know, coming into the market and actually having that be their first entrant. Right and I think wilderness trail did the same 23:18 exact number four was new rip and while he's talking about it just happened to be it now. 23:25 Now that I actually do like number four, I gotta days like new roof. 23:31 I like butterscotch kinda like no 23:33 it's like he planted 23:35 like a cinnamon note on the back of 23:37 their cinnamon but it's like a lot of 23:40 it it's got that fried pie crust that I love fried pie crust man you got you got some awesome tasty between you and Ryan I I gotta I gotta up my game on it that's for sure. You've got to eat a lot. That's why do eat 23:52 a lot. The thing is, is none of its fake. I know people want to say like it's it's hate but this is like I mean I've really trained and stuff And really tried to connect to everything I've ever tasted. And it all goes back to when I'm trying to get better from Iraq and I was using mindfulness techniques and tasting and I would use to one of my therapy things was I would break down what barbecue potato chips tasted like and felt like on my tongue and that would help keep me grounded and I just applied that to bourbon and so that's kind of been my my technique. 24:25 So start off with going down your local local grocery aisle finding different kinds of chips and pulling the real thing Yeah, and you mean you got to gain 10 pounds automatic 24:36 the risky take 24:37 grab like 10 varieties of fried apple pies, you know those? 24:40 Well, I'll grab 10 different varieties of like hot pockets and we'll start 24:43 right then you're born You 24:46 know, I'm not a hot soccer guy now back in college Pop Tarts and like crucibles Yeah. 24:50 You know, I used to be I did love toasters turtles because you get to design your own art on there. Yeah. 24:56 Oh man. But the thing is, is like with the Pop Tarts like I only go two flavors. It's brown sugar, cinnamon and then the wild berry like those are the only two that I would actually go for beyond that, like I'm not a strawberry jam person like, clones 25:09 never really did like number four by the way. Yeah, four is really good. Okay, there's a check for me. Where's the checkbox? Yeah, 25:15 going to five Alright, moving on to five here like that. 25:18 It's hard to analyze color in here because it's so dark. Yeah. But 25:24 yeah, I mean you got we got it. We got a variety variety really grainy. 25:29 You mean on the nose? It's getting a little too grainy for him. 25:32 It also but it does have like, it does have like that. 25:37 You go to the fairgrounds and they're serving the cotton candy you go to the cotton candy booth is 25:42 that cotton candy so I got some raw notes or something. I mean, when I just had a taste and I think you kind of get some of that that cotton candy and a little bit on the back of it. You get some grape Kool Aid. 25:53 Yeah, it does kind of kind of funky. A lot of raw notes on that. For me anyways. 25:58 So all that's pretty Though I'll ask you all When was the last time you all had some some of these other bottle of bonds that are just you know, regular kind of shelf stuff so like old Bardstown old grains. 26:11 Like this is old Bardstown. Yeah, you think? Yeah, I think this is old Bardstown. Number five. 26:16 Yeah, I now think it is. 26:18 Because it has that like a particular oak note in there that I get from their, from their stuff. 26:23 I mean, I've always early times for me like an always 26:27 early, early times. I mean it's, 26:30 I haven't spent a lot of time with early times. 26:34 But of what we have up here that I've been drinking the shit out of his new riff and I've been I've been drinking so much of their cash drink stuff, you know? That was so good. It is I it's 26:48 It is incredible. What they've been able to accomplish. Okay, so we go to the 26:53 glass, it's not 26:54 a Glencairn. Well, I think we we definitely made a mistake of not labeling these glasses either because now me and you are literally like three four little accounting like what's we're on number six already and we're trying to like go through these yeah 27:08 so I do like the nose on I do like this a lot 27:12 this is probably my favorite knows this far everything you want in America knows oh my god 27:17 that's good that's kind of full package right there yeah that's a full package that's a that's a check check plus from what what else 27:23 so let's when we say full package What are you what are you putting that in reference to what is your What is your baseline that in bourbon I'm talking about in life in life? What's your baseline for a full package? Can you 27:33 want me to just hit solid Are you referring to package 27:37 Gosh, last time I'm drinking with you all and again 27:40 often by now maybe I'm so glad we picked this over like lawsuits or something. They were like texting last night and I like put my phone down for like an hour and I come by or 30 texts and I'm like, we're not doing these. We're gonna do the bomb bomb. 27:53 It'll be much more files wave. 27:55 So anyway, my full package will be like what I kind of think of it is like it just hits the checkboxes Got the nose, it's got the flavors. And when I think of flavor, like it's nothing that's it's nothing that's crazy. It's nothing that is off the wall. It's a one off like it is it is hitting, you know, most of the high notes that you get on a bourbon flavor will you've got caramel, you've got oak, you've got pepper, you've got some of those things, and it still lingers just a little bit now all these being 100 proof. We're not going to see something that's going to sit there and just like the finishes, keep going and going and going, right? I mean, I think we will, maybe we will, but I would think with 100 proof and I'm not going to act like I've got a refined palette by any means. But I think that I typically only see that happening with barrel proof whiskey is something that like I could still sit back like 30 seconds later and it's still like those flavors are still coating my mouth my tongue 28:49 sometimes I get on that. If you have like, I've had a lot of good for roses, like the hundred proof. What is it? 28:58 Single barrel single barrel, sorry. VOB SV 29:01 Yeah, that like, you can tell the spices from the grains and not from alcohol and the finish just kind of lingers on there. And so that I really liked that one. The finish was a little flat for me, but it hit all the checkboxes on 29:15 Friday night solid six had some layers to it. I would say revisit that one. We like when we're done here, because that's definitely a contender. 29:23 Yeah. Hopefully we're not doing like confirmation bias on each other. And we're just like, Oh, yeah. Oh, no, 29:28 I disagree with you. I will totally tell you. Yeah, but that and I know that Ryan will be quick to say, Yeah, fuck you, you know. So but in his own way, 29:39 own heartwarming way that thumbs down. 29:41 You know, he'll be like, well, I don't really. I don't really agree with you on that. But I know where you're coming from, though. Yeah, Fred. I agree to disagree with you. And then Kenny will be like, well, I just don't get that. Yeah. 29:55 It doesn't have 29:56 to be that or I'll say it. Let's change this. Let's change the subject real quick. 29:59 What does that mean? The next one, what 30:00 does that look like? But seriously on to the next one? 30:03 I got my first Neagle, SB to number seven, I think we all got new glasses changing everything. You know if I'm 30:09 gonna if I'm going to go on a limb if we're gonna if anybody's gonna guess on one thing I'm going to say number seven is gonna be the old granddad bottle and bond. I just I think it's, it's okay. It's basic. It's either me that or it's Evan Williams. It's one of the other, but I feel like it's just, it's cool. It's like there but I don't think 30:26 like I don't think it's all green. I don't either know, this. I think this is 1792 that's what I was gonna say from the nose. It's got that you talking about Nana's guys that you're bananas. 30:36 You know, as there's one thing that Ryan brought up a second ago when you talk about four roses, you know there's a there's a few distilleries out there that that don't come out with a bottle and bond product for roses and wild turkey or or two of them that kind of come up to mind. 30:51 You want to know why? 30:52 Yeah, I'd love to know why the books 30:54 on the distilling season, actually and not bringing them in is very difficult. So like knob Creek, which is 100 proof that could have six different distilling seasons in the the actual audit of a bottle of bond it's actually very costly. Heaven Hill has it down because they've been doing it for so long. And they, you know, they don't really change a lot of those older methods. 31:16 Do they still audit for vault and bon 31:19 Oh, if they if the federal government wants to audit, they will audit and occasionally they will come in and out and they what they do they just look at paperwork, that's all they do. You know, it's not like they're going in there and 31:28 taking dramaturgy. Yeah, they're not doing anything like that. 31:31 But it's, it's it's pretty fascinating 31:34 to see. Really getting finished, kind of lingering. 31:38 So do you think do you think that creating a bottle and bond product is it just more paperwork nowadays at the end of the day, and maybe that's why wild turkey for roses and people like that, just don't worry about it. 31:50 It always comes down to position in the marketplace. And when you look at where bottle of wine Bond was 15 years ago, heaven Hill owned it. Nobody was getting near it. No one cared. Then Bernie lumber starts kind of striking striking the bar to me he changes he changes. That man changed the perception of the bartender community for bottle of bond. And then so other people started tacking on the new distiller started coming on. They're like we want to be bottled bond, we want to be old school. And then people like brown Forman said we need to get back into bottle the bond cc early times. You know, you see all kinds of efforts from a lot of places and people like four roses and wild turkey have always been about four roses and wild turkey. You know, so they don't want to necessarily get and kind of like a categorical lump with those particular brands. And maybe they will maybe they will and I don't know, but Wild Turkey has kind of been very anti 100 proof, you know, so the 100 it for them. It's comes out their one on one absolutely like their entire branding is around one on one. Yeah. And that's very specific. Absolutely. 33:05 Yeah, I think ball and bonds are like perfect for cocktails by the way to like 100. Like, you know, it's just it's a lot of them are young enough and like and there's enough proof there that they stand up to a lot of sweet ingredients 33:20 and like the nose on a it is. It's really nice. 33:23 And the other thing about the cocktail side is that yes, it's got enough proof that keeps it there but you know the bottle and bond this market of what we're looking at, we're looking at anything from a $15 bottle up to a $50 bottle I think 50 is the high when I was going through this so wilderness trail bottle and bond is the highest near it was 50 I believe it was between the Evan Williams bottle of bond and the Jim Beam bond and maybe the JW dan, as hitting some of the the lower lower price point therapy. Medic. Medic. Medic Ryan just Ryan just choked out over here. 33:57 Yeah, I'm trying to spit but it went too far down. No point of return. 34:03 date was very green forward to me. And it had like kind of like an undercurrent of like develop grain like an cornbread, which is a note I often get in some of the beam product. I've got a real nice like cornbread like a like a touch of like honey butter on it. 34:19 See, the thing is I actually kind of still enjoy this one. There is there's something about it where I didn't like it finished. The finish is still there for me. I don't know. I'm just gonna go the check on that one, Brian, 34:30 and I don't like it. So it didn't matter. 34:32 Well, no, I don't know. Just, there's only it's only a 33% vote over here. So you know, that's how it is. That's right. 34:40 All right. So number nine. Number nine. We were rolling through these awful quickly, aren't we? 34:45 When you got 12 to get there? 34:46 Yeah, we can have two and so on. And so I got another question I'll throw at you all because I remember this from I think was in Houston bourbon society or one of the other was you know, 34:57 when it comes to my tastings, and I'm trying to be analytic I hate when people fucking talk to me. So this is like, throw me on. Focus hit me. Can you shut up? Can we but it may be terrible, but it's true. Let's let him have a 35:10 hard I'll try the zone. Okay, all right, right on 35:13 I'm not gonna taste what you asked a question. Go ahead, 35:15 we gotta gotta keep the conversation going, right? We got to keep the listeners engaged here, right? 35:19 But you can ask Jessica I like close the door and I'm like, I'm writing. I'm doing this let me allow, you know, 35:25 we gotta we gotta make you break out of the mold here. So you're hanging out with us. You don't wear mascots anymore. Right? So we're making the breakout you 35:32 fucking hot out there too. I don't have to be on stage. So. 35:36 So. So there was I think it was a question that brought up by Wade. You know, we love Wade friend of the show. He's got a lot of bourbon knowledge out there. And and he said, you know, is it true or false that is every warehouse, a bonded warehouse. It comes down to the law. 35:53 They not everything's stored in a warehouse, but in terms of like, you know, they've been Pay they have to have it It cannot be in a non bonded the government has to know where it is. And it is it is very much on the watch list now is it a marked bonded warehouse? No, no I mean there there's there was a artists in Kentucky arts and distillery was aging in containers shipping containers for a long time and then they were aging outside for a long time and they would later be Jefferson's the growth growth product but the government knew what those were and they had to be that paperwork had to be submitted. 36:44 Okay, well see there's an LG 36:46 even have to have like a bonded Kenny and I've rented this like when when you buy do a transfer and bond from 36:52 one to another. You have 36:54 bonded transfer like so much now. This 36:56 isn't bond. This isn't anything that you have like Can I just go got, I got an f1 37:01 fit no one comes in and inspects it per se, but, but the paperwork has to be there. And if it's not, then you know, they get and when that audit comes, which the audits don't come, you know, they don't always come so like you could get away with, you know, doing that and, and I know people who, who distill, you know, illegally and then had a distillery and they added their old stuff into it. That was illegal. 37:25 But it happens. It does happen. So I'm going to go on a limb here, and I'm going to say number nine, it might be my least favorite of everything we've tried so far. 37:36 I really like the nose. But Gosh, the the finish on this, it just tastes like grass and, like, dirt. I don't know 37:46 it. Yeah, I'm just, I'm just not a fan of it. I'm ready to move on to 10 Yeah, I mean, it was just like, okay, can this one be over because I can't deal with it anymore. I don't know. We might burn a bridge there. But you know, it's just not there for me. 37:58 You got to stop worrying about the bridge. Yeah yeah they're engineers 38:04 I don't hate it as much as you guys but it's not it's not a contender for me there it's grainy Scott alcohol undertones to it got some sweetness but it's not it's not it's not an end of the world bourbon like it's not making me mad like you 38:23 I mean he's fuming yeah right here 38:24 I am off my rocker right now just going crazy. All right, number 10 yeah my guess moving on to number 10 we're we're rolling through these, I guess the thread for you Do you do these tastings a lot? Like how often or how fast can you go through like 15 Bourbons. From forest to still Bull Run distillery whiskeys are using some of the best water in the US. 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Like I don't. It depends on what I'm doing. Like if I'm doing it. I'm doing it in competition. It depends on the competition. I have to adhere to the rules. I'm doing it for myself. My own little fucking thing I do whatever it is whatever it is I do or I'm just trying to taste you know the big part is is like do I have someone there helping me because I don't always have someone helping me and it's hard to pour for yourself and I mean we do 200 products difficult yeah but I can you know I usually try to spend two minutes with the glass thing is I my whole thing is I want to give I want to give every glass its chance you know it's not you know someone put a lot of time and attention and effort to make it if I'm going to taste it in analytically I need to give that same kind of time and attention at least 41:38 if you do something different you you tastings multiple times if you give it a rating, right, 41:42 that's right. I will I will taste three times because right now I'm just coming off a cold memory. I texted you guys yesterday that I lost my palate. I was like I don't know if I can do this. I lost my palate. I woke up I went out that's good. Anyway, bars and found 41:55 it. I feel like we're on a level playing field and now 41:58 we're down Last night, I wouldn't read it is late. I went out with drinking with my friend and I woke up this morning. I'm back, baby. It's like all that whiskey, like, cleared it. It was like so I'm just coming off the three festivals and I've been pretty worn down and now I'm back. And I mean today I could tell it was back but, but, you know, if you have an onion, if you whatever you have for breakfast, influences your palate, our surroundings influences. Right now we're on we're in a construction area that that little bit of, you know, dust smell that's out there can influence what you're picking up. The lights can have something the fact that someone's saying, you know, talking out there can influence I mean, there's so many influences so that when I'm actually tasting by myself, I like to be in a kind of like as much of a soundproof room as possible. No music, nobody bugging me. And it's just me and the glass. You can do a whiskey quickie can take three days to 42:57 give it a thumbs down 43:00 The way you all do, that's great. 43:01 And I guess I'll kind of give you I'll throw one back at you here, Fred, because, you know, we, we catch some heat every once in a while because people think that, oh, 60 seconds that's not long enough for whiskey review in and I kind of go on the other side of that and I'm like, well, soon as you taste something you kind of realize if you like it or not, 43:19 yeah, how many times does it take? Like, do you ever come back and you're like, 43:23 yeah, there's no way there's there's not actually as many how many times I would think that you went from something that you're just like, this is like a 65 to 95. Right? Not that big not understand we're not scoring it on a on a on a, on a point scale here. We're just saying like, thumbs up middle ago. Thumbs down, 43:40 right. So there have been 43:44 there been a few that went from like 80 to 85 or 88. Something like that. 43:53 Just a few points, then yeah, 43:54 I mean, it's not it's never really, you know, too much but It is there. And you know the big thing I think, you know, we have to what you have to what you have to determine as now that you all are kind of getting in the critic role is like what is your base? What is your base? And for me, my base has always been Evan Williams Black Label. That's an 86 point whiskey. You know and the thing is is like when someone rates that when someone says that is 60 points or 45 points or something, you're essentially saying it's undrinkable. Evan Williams Black Label is very drinkable. And you know, it can be enjoyed sip, it can be a cocktail, it's it's very, you know, versatile and like that is my base. So if I if I find myself in a situation where I am being very low, I like I was I was writing some stuff really, really low for a long period I went back to taste Evan Williams Black Label to make sure I was not crazy crazy. And I was like, I was like No, I'm right. Because these are not better than Evan Williams Black Label and it was like it was the one that did it for me it was like three years ago it was Eagle rare 17 year old and and then that also the Parkers heritage came out that was really, really bad. And I was like, God, I mean, I'm about to write these two things under an ad. And it was like, that's like really, really low for for those two products. And so I went back and taste that my base and it was like, Okay, yeah, I feel firm in that. So you have to like come to your base of like, what is your throne? What what barely makes your thumb up? And then what barely makes your thumbs down that that will always help you as as a reviewer, because you have to have something to lean on. Because if you know, you know you, you want to be consistent. That's the main thing. Absolutely. Thanks to you our basis and McKenna 46:02 realize like if it's better than here McKenna we like, yeah, 46:06 it's not, then it's true. That's true. I mean, that's that's kind of what started us down our path of launching pursuit series was like a well, if this is better than here, McKenna will do this. Yeah. And so we had a first barrel sample and that's for you. Well, that's, I mean, good for you. That's another story here or there. But I kind of want to talk about maybe 46:21 I should flip the podcasts on YouTube about why you started. 46:26 Well, we can we can we can definitely do a podcast about that one. 46:29 I did that last night. But then I was like, I don't want to 46:33 sell but it's all about a hotel to stall 46:34 and they won't be self promotion. When I'm asked questions. It's good. God, 46:38 by the way, before we go to this number 10. Yes. And I was I was I was I put check check. plus, plus, I was away. I was really, I enjoyed number 1010 46:49 was very woody for me. And see, that's me. I like 46:54 my pain. And I'm just I'm writing that and one of these ones that Fred doesn't like his hitter McKenna. Like 47:01 getting old so no so here so this is this is I'm not getting that So the one thing here about here McKenna is that it's a single barrel right? It's nothing that is it's batch it's not it's not celaire age it's not whatever it is. It is it is a single barrel offering it's nothing else like it you know we have the opportunity to catch up with Josh Hey for one time and talk about after it one San Francisco and say like, Listen, we all pick and cherry barrels like we all just sending two bottles that you knew that are three bottles that you knew that were just like Primo pristine, like going to knock the socks off. And he said he said Kenny This is exactly what happened. I make one phone call down to the warehouse. You know right now we've all been in the warehouse at heaven Hill. There's just pallets stacked up just boxes and things are moving everywhere. made a phone call. said hey, I need you to take three bottles out of a box. Here's the address the ship them to. That's it. There was there was no cherry picking. There is nothing like that. 47:59 Henry McKenna won Best bourbon the year before 48:02 Yes, I wouldn't believe that but like everyone you talked to it heaven Hill had the same exact story like it same exact like it's like they fed it to them like this. Well we need to do 48:12 I went back in the judges and you know what, when we unveiled the bottles, all the bottles for the same barrel number and, and you know so that makes it that makes that a little bit more believable is because they were they said it came from one case and you know as far as I know they case up their their barrels all the same, they don't intermingle. Yeah. And so that is that is the only thing I can think of, and also the year before they won with with Henry McKenna. And the second thing is what nobody ever wants to give any credit to is that there are more than 40 judges there from around the world, the greatest palettes in the world and I'm not just saying that because Guys, you're on it. But like I'm talking about people who run the hotels in Macau, people who run Wynn Las Vegas these are the these people are ultra respected for their palates. And they are human guess what they think is a honey barrel at heaven Hill. Could be a shit turd 49:25 over there. 49:26 Yeah. I mean, I gave two years in a row on my panel. I did not metal Pappy two years in a row. And you know, YP is you know Pappy is good. I mean, I didn't metal it. So what does that say? What does that say? I mean, you don't know how the You don't know how the judges are going to react. And you don't know what panel they're going to get on. If they're on my panel, man. Like with my panel, 49:56 we submitted pursuit series and Fred was like, I didn't even get that on my panel. Yeah. 50:01 So you never you never have any idea. 50:03 So like, you know, so that I you know, there's there'll be two 300 Bourbons that come in. There's other judges I can't you know, and they split them out. And yes, they do make me drink vodka. 50:14 Oh god. Oh, you poor thing. The fourth thing, by the way, thanks for you making the sacrifice for doing that as well. You 50:21 bet 11th amazing. 50:24 11 so 11 I did a check minus that was good, but it wasn't all the way there for 50:28 me. Yeah, I thought was average for me. 50:30 I love 11 a lot. I'm already on 12 50:34 Yeah, I got some like floral Really? Because I'm the exact opposite. I am I'm unique. I'm putting it 12 is as one of the bottom of the buckets for me. 50:44 I don't know what it I'll try to 50:46 try to it smells like floor sweeping. 50:49 Yeah, I'm not I'm just not a throw up packets. 50:51 Like Can you talk about 50:52 I usually talk about that when I talk about rye whiskey that I always get this note with some rye whiskeys of of if you recall. Back in grade school and somebody would like he had a classmate that puked on the floor and you had a janitor that wouldn't put the shavings on top of it that's always a note for somehow that I always get off stuff. 51:10 Yeah that's that's a real note that green hand whiskey had that note for me 51:17 I don't like I don't like it enough to put them on top three so 51:21 so i think i think it Now it's time we go ahead but you we need to replace like your top five retail taste your tops for sure anything you got a checkbox or a yes or whatever it is that you go through I use arrows 51:35 I use arrows and like I'll do like one arrow if I'm excited about two arrows if I love it three arrows if I'm like, about to go in the room with it, you know, 51:45 there you go. I tell you what, you know I went to I went back to number three and like three is just like coming back from from 12 the kitchen just got like super caramel knows. I put a maybe check box next to it doesn't mean anything. me here yet as we keep going, 52:02 I left threes nose. 52:06 Three is got too much. It's over early for me. threes over early would mean he was over early. So like, think of herbs like deal. Oregano. Sometimes those are candy, some medicinal herbal. It's a no for me threes out now. 52:26 Yeah, that's pretty good. I get that I'm still kind of there. I don't know for me I'm still kind of there on it. But I'm going to exit for me. Well, I think that 52:34 if we need to report who's reporting for us we do not need a report. 52:37 There is there is way too much out here that we do not need a report. So I'm moving I'm going to go between like 3468 and 10, maybe 11. And I'll choose my top three out of that. 52:53 fours and for me from the nose. 52:55 I want to say it's one dimensional, but maybe we've gone through this 15 times. There's there's something that a taste that just doesn't have it there for me. And for me I'm looking for I'm looking for caramel I'm looking for oak, I'm looking for some of those things and for just doesn't have it there for me. So I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead and just kind of knock that one off my lips pulling for out of your list. I'm pulling for my 53:18 lot. It's in his top five Remember that? No, well, that's still good. Like, I mean, something 53:24 they might have even though they knew what it was. Anyway, I have to I had to know. 53:28 I think I think you know, you're right. I think it was too easy to take it out. I'll go back to it. Be only because I think it definitely deserves to be up there. It was too easy to pick it out. 53:44 And it is bourbon. It is bourbon. 53:47 And I guess you know, I'll look it to you guys and kind of kind of pose this question to you as a stock start depleting as you know, higher aged whiskies available in the market or not very anymore really the one thing that we see that's very common is we see 10 to 14 and 15 year old Tennessee product that is now available Do you think that's going to help change some consumers mind about their about actually having you know very aged product that's in the market versus something that's only like four to six years old? I mean, 54:21 what help Fred and then they've given barrels kind of proven that there's some really good stuff how many Yeah, I think I think barrel bourbon is an anomaly. They are such good blenders. Yeah. And they blend out a lot of that really unsavory note that I find in some medical 54:38 product but honestly, I just put a check plus next to deco like it was just it's too good. I don't know maybe. I know most of these pretty much all these except that one coming from Kentucky but there is there is something about it. That I think most people if you've never had that kind of product before, you gotta give it a try. Because if you haven't and you you just immediately Oh, Tennessee screw that I'm not going to drink it and you haven't tried it, then you're not really giving it a fair chance and a fair opportunity because there's there's a lot of good products that 55:09 that you can't get a question for both of you 55:11 know, here we go. 55:12 How do you put when you're tasting? Like I try to surround my mouth? I'm looking at my spit cup in comparison to Ryan's and it's like 55:22 oh, Kenny's been drinking the whole time empty. Yeah. Well, I mean, my mind is full. 55:30 I mean, I put a lot of my mouth to kind of surround How much do you put in your mouth to? 55:34 To find out before we talk no leaders around? 55:37 I'm doing I'm doing baby pores over here. Right? I'm just doing baby pores. It's just enough to like, maybe coat the tongue. I think I think what you're looking for is like an overall like, are you chewing it kind 55:49 of thing. So this is very important to me as a taster. Like I have to make sure that because if you just put a baby poor on there, you're getting a small snippet of what that was. He is Now you all been doing this long enough I don't have to worry about you you know discrediting at some because of a mouthful perspective but mouth field to me is it's so important that's why I like to make sure I can at least fill it down my jaw line 56:14 but there's also I think something that is you also miss by by also not consuming it and being able to say like okay if we spit it out are you missing something? Well 56:24 you know keep in mind I have to when I'm doing this I don't like 1500 so I I'd be dead which I know some people would like that but it's not going to happen 56:34 I got talking to him over here 56:37 I got my top three 56:38 you got your top three already I went out on a tangent here 56:42 and yeah, I'm still okay I'm going back to number six because I had a check check plus i probably doesn't mean actually going to go back to it but 56:48 yeah, I'm with you on six it's checks all around. 56:52 Good stuff. Missy when I when I do take a little baby poor though I still I still try to get it in my jaw line. I still chew a little bit Try to have a cover my tongue Yeah, but I also am not the way that it's just like it's not like a full like quarter round so my mouth either right it's I've got to have just enough that I can savor the flavor be able to get it to the to the point where I'm like actually chewing on my back molars 57:18 but other than that four and six are are wanting to for me or in that they're right there. I have a run off between seven and 11 and I need to be removed from from this I need you to like you need to be kicked off the panel. No, I need I need I need to be I need these to be given to me where I don't know what they are. is what I'm saying. 57:38 Well, you don't know what they are. 57:40 No, I know what they are. I know this is 11 57:42 right? I know this seven. Alright, well turn around or put your hands above your eyes and just give them to 57:48 get over here. sevens on the other glass. I'm already going to know Yeah, 57:52 it doesn't need God this is it. This is how I do things like if like if I get like really tied to a particular one. So now now what I have Do I have to like assess this from? Like, what I like more about it and so 58:05 I'm mouse like tingling right now. Yeah, he got again shot. 58:09 I need to find out which I like more seven or 11 and we may have like a tie. Well, 58:14 I don't like either, so I'll solve that for you. 58:17 There we go. No, I'm kidding. It's a it's a consensus, pursuit consensus. You know, sometimes you go back to something and you taste it. You're like, maybe I didn't realize I like that as much as the first time. 58:28 We're all drinking. 58:30 Yeah, maybe. 58:31 So I'm going to I'm going to go with 11 over seven. Due to a berry, berry accentuated note that I happen to love. Bananas. Not bananas. 58:45 What is it? 58:47 No. marzipan is not marzipan. 58:51 It's it's cornbread. 58:51 Like a like but a particular like the Gypsy cornbread not like the like the sweeter cornbread. So I'm going with 11 59:00 So my, my, my pics are four, 59:05 six and 11 59:09 four, six and 11. Okay, so we got Fred. 59:12 I didn't put that in order. You want me to order that? 59:13 Nope, that's fine. So Fred at four, six and 11. Ryan, you got your top three. 59:17 I have four, 59:19 six and 10. 59:21 Oh, gosh, you guys are on point over. So I'm going to go a little bit different. I've got six, of course. So I think so six is by far that's that's, that's in our top 11 was closed over me. I also had 10 Okay, and 11 so at 610 and 11. Okay, so six and 59:38 11 are definitely in the top two. 59:40 Yeah, absolutely. So with that, Are y'all ready? For the reveal? 59:44 What what what what's the what's the on the third? Do we want it because we want to do the third. So we all had like a 59:51 bullet. I had four. 59:52 And you know what he and you had four, 59:54 four. I had 1010 We're all waiting. Like it's kind of like a three weeks. Split right there. Yeah. So, so we basically had four 610 and 11. Were our favorites. Okay. Okay, that's three. So we'll just take those as the four. Are you ready for the reveal? Yeah, let's do it. Alright. So number one. All right, number one, everybody remembers this. 1:00:17 We all kind of put an X on it. This is the wilderness trail. Ah, bottom, the bond. 1:00:22 I said, and I said, I thought it might be JW dan. So remember that. 1:00:26 There we go. There we go. Number two, we were all right. GEORGE deco. But you know, the thing is, is that like, I really enjoyed it. I, I would, I would honestly put that out there as my top but you know, when we look at stuff that's across the market, people that are going for, I think we look at the Kentucky Bourbons of what people really want. The George decal note like you love it or you hate it. It's one or the other. It's okay. And so, you just got you just got to find it now. Here it is. Number three, Henry McKenna. Number three is Henry McHenry. I had XR 1:00:59 Look what I put I put a line through it. Like it and see. Let me replace it. It happens it happens. 1:01:06 I know I've had some McKenna's oh they're just 1:01:08 this is not this is not smell good. So but then again remember we talked about this so now I like it. No I don't like it single barrel offering now it's hits different cannonballs McKenna phone calls this one time. Number four. New Heaven Hill the new bottle and bond heaven Hill shit. Right. So 1:01:32 so it lands on the top four. Yeah, it 1:01:36 lands on the topic. I think that was number one because we were so I really liked it. 1:01:41 You did you both you both. We both put that as your number one. Yeah. CI There you go. 1:01:48 This was my second guess about it was was an old Bardstown number five. 1:01:53 You are on point. Bardstown old parts town is number five. Right? Yep. 1:02:00 I can't remember. 1:02:01 But listen, here we go this is the one that I'm most proud about because I thought I guess it and I love this brand. I love the proctor making number six is the early times 1:02:10 body. Yeah, that six was really good. 1:02:13 Yeah, it was great. 1:02:14 Yeah, yeah, right. Exactly. So I I still stand by it. I say that is the best one liter of bourbon that you find on the market for 27 1792 1:02:26 think you think that you like somebody just like mind reading over here. I'm just like sending you like notes of Allison happening. The texts of the I really, 1:02:34 I really for him, I really do drink for a living. 1:02:37 So 1792 the bottle and bond. This was a pic that was done by the wine rack here and local and global. So that was that one. Number eight. Might have a guests. 1:02:48 I didn't have a guest on not just a negative. Alright. 1:02:50 Well, this is probably the most common bourbon you're finding the market is the Evan Williams. bottle and bond. Right. So there you go. Number nine is the Jim Beam Yeah, so to access to Exodus, I mean, I, I literally literally wrote down I hate doing this because I love the book no family I it's just like I literally wrote down. I said the worst of all of it and I'm just not a fan of it. That's just that's just how it is. Sorry. Number 10. So for me, this was my second line. It was your third. This is new riff. Yeah, right. Okay. And like I said, this is one of the favorites that we all kind of love to 11 is JW. Dan. Fred, you had this is number three. Yeah. 1:03:39 Jayla dance. And my top five along with this is 1:03:44 this is 1:03:46 kind of one of the this is the this is what heaven Hill bottle and Bond was like a few years ago. And this is like that. Pretty close to that. 1:03:55 Yeah, absolutely. And so the last one number 12. We have narrowed it down Yet his old grand old granddad, which I actually put as the maybe the second word so so I'm sorry my sorry Jim Beam like it just for myself it was probably the bottom of the barrel for for myself 1:04:17 Can we go ahead and crown what we think is the best 1:04:21 bottle and bond from this tasting? Well would it be for if we're going to go by the numbers and say 1:04:27 that you took 46 you took four I took six as my number one then and with that we I took six as 1:04:33 well you did you take seven? Yeah, 1:04:35 we all three. We all took sex. We all took six and so we all took six that that means that early times bottle of bond I was gonna say that wouldn't be the one which is going to be our winner here that is And for me personally, I totally agree. I think Yeah. 1:04:50 And that is here's the thing to you competitions, you grab the bottle, and you like you go around and you pour a little bit more of it and you toast with it because 1:05:00 Really this anymore thanks they poured they poured some heavy pours This is anyway so this is work and congratulations boys we select 1:05:08 on our very first bourbon pursuit winner of a category I think we should do more of this and 1:05:15 I'm very happy with it too i mean i think we going into we kind of we've always talked about we talked about army anyways, 1:05:23 I know I get cut out of every fucking conversation 1:05:28 festivals now 1:05:30 I joke guys 1:05:31 I'm really I really do like working with you guys really do 1:05:34 absolutely it but I also want to say to the runner up the heaven Hill bottle and bond. I know. I'm not surprised as much as you might want to hate it, but it was the second runner up, you know, it came it came for you all to it was the number one. But you know, this one finished in everybody's top category. Right? So, 1:05:54 but it was like, I mean, it was I mean, it was my number one but I mean, let's be honest. It was like fraction of a point right? It was not it was not like super I had and you're looking at a 1:06:05 $25 price point I think maybe maybe 30 for one leader versus $40 for 750 1:06:12 not too crazy of a difference however if the newer is what video of so the question 1:06:17 is now do we like put it out on social media that we just did this? 1:06:21 We can't spoil the surprise I will will put it out that we did it but you don't want to put it out there. 1:06:26 Yeah, but I mean, I honestly all I will say though, as well is that new roof came as a pretty head contender up here. Yeah, it came in and the one that came to have our top three. 1:06:39 It did the one that shocked me was that wilderness trail didn't do better. 1:06:43 Yeah, that 1:06:44 was that went on a pic of theirs recently and I was pretty 1:06:46 Yeah, they're, they're whiskey is fantastic. Another one 1:06:50 that but they also they also did a small batch a lot of their stuff. I mean, if you if you look at if you look at the bottle, it actually has the bottle number and everything on there. So you know that It's just going to be continually getting you know a little bit older a little bit better as you continue to goes 1:07:05 and what else surprised me was that Jim Beam bonded didn't do better. Really? Yeah Why is that or Oh granddad by a lot of people love that those those been bonded they tend to be they tend to be pretty pronounced with some some notes that do well for me. And they were they were 1:07:26 flat out I love beam stuff but I think it just needs time like age like 1:07:30 those not or maybe proof Yeah, it might need proof and and that's not necessarily a good thing. Right 1:07:38 You know? Yeah, cuz from your above the char a few weeks ago he said like, proof can hide a lot of flaws. Yeah, I can 1:07:44 because you're it's beating up your palate. Well, 1:07:47 it's how it is. And so, everybody, thank you so much for tuning in. You know, this was an awesome episode. Thank you for listening. You know, we hope you enjoyed this episode that we recorded here at Hotel distill. You know, it's located here in downtown Lowell, and Whiskey row and for those that want to experience it find something new even find a space that you can actually be a part of with no whiskey row if you want to stay here like that's that's the actually unique experience of actually living and staying on whiskey row like I know it's a pretty cool thing so make sure you come check it out hotel distill it's an authentic global destination you can book your experienced for it now at Hotel distilled calm, and is going to be opening on September 1 of 20. November for November 1 2019. We've already been Thursday at 1:08:32 the end. If you all would like to see more blind tastings. Let us know. Let us know I had a good time with you all facing with you. This is fun. Yeah, actually, I thought Kenny did a good job kind of like going back and forth with us. He did Oh yeah. Without getting too much in my tasting head. He's 1:08:47 good at keeping the cadence going. Yeah, 1:08:49 that's what he's always good for. 1:08:50 Yeah, and doing the reeds I can do that right or now. 1:08:52 Well, we got a good job. We're gonna make sure we do that. We had to make sure that we, we we stay on point. We gotta make sure we get our listeners like all the information they want to hear. hear about it. So it's all it's all. It's all good for you. That's just part of the process. It is. So cheers everybody, make sure you follow Fred Minnick on social media you know Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, bourbon pursuit Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. If you like what you hear, make sure you support us patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. And with that, we will see you all next week. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
24 Oct 2019
052 - Kerry Bossak, Subourbia.com - Annoying Trends in Bourbon
Kerry Bossak, author of Subourbia.com, talks about how bourbon helps him lose weight and goes over his top 10 list of the most annoying trends in the bourbon world. Special guest co-host Blake from bourbonr.com shares his favorite release of the past few months. How did you get into bourbon? Also talk about your blog Then we dive into the top 10 most annoying trends in the bourbon world. Read his article here
16 Jun 2016
Most Popular Podcasts
220 - The Van Winkle Family and Bourbon Community Roundtable #37
This episode is a twofer. You get the Van Winkle Family and the Bourbon Community Roundtable all in one which took place at Bourbon & Beyond 2019. Julian gives history about the brand and the timeline of when it became a part of the Sazerac portfolio. One of Julian’s daughters talks about the emergence of Pappy & Co and how she is more of a tequila person and never really gets to drink any of the family bourbon. Preston talks about their involvement with crack down of the secondary market groups as a counterfeiting measurement. Fred keeps lots of good questions rolling along that you all will find interesting. The 2nd half of the podcast is a live recording of the bourbon community roundtable as we share thoughts on the festival, the news that broke the evening prior, and what we recommend for those who can’t get Pappy. There’s almost too much going on, but it’s timely and full of good info you all will enjoy. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/pursuespirits. Barrell Craft Spirits works with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America’s most curious cask strength whiskies. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. The 2019 Kentucky’s Edge Bourbon Conference & Festival pairs all things Kentucky with bourbon. It takes place October 4th & 5th at venues throughout Covington and Newport, Kentucky. Find out more at KentuckysEdge.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Bourbon and Beyond. What was it like when your dad was trying to sell whiskey when no one was interested? Did you ever sneak in and steal some whiskey from your dad? What was it like for bourbon in the 1980s? How did you barter with whiskey? Were you ever worried that you would have to close the company? When you were a child, did you feel the stress your dad was experiencing? Tell us about the moment you realized you wouldn't have to shut down. What was the thinking behind partnering with Buffalo Trace? What do you think about your haters? What is the relationship with Buffalo Trace like? Does Preston have the same palette as Julian? What's your favorite expression? Is it ok to drink Pappy 23 with coke? What does the future look like for the brand? Do you plan on increasing the price? What steps have you taken to curb the secondary market? What would happen if you were in the same room as an alleged counterfeiter? What did you learn from the sessions so far at Bourbon and Beyond? Thoughts on the Van Winkle session. Who caught up with Marianne Eaves? If you can't get Pappy, what do you recommend? 0:00 Everybody Are you interested in looking at the distilling process and pairing that with key business knowledge such as finance, marketing and operations, then you should check out the online distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. It's an online program. It can be completed in as little as 15 weeks. It's taught by both of you have all business faculty and corporate fellows. So you're getting real experience from real experts at the most renowned distilleries, companies and startups in the distilling industry. all that's required is a bachelor's degree, go to U of l.me. Slash pursue spirits. So Julian, after the seminar was over, he pulled out a pot big friggin pocket knife on stage and started cutting the labels. He's like, this is how he presented. I was like, How the hell did you get that through security? 0:59 Hey, everyone is 1:00 It's Episode 220 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny. And last weekend at bourbon and beyond, it was nothing short of incredible. We can't say thank you enough to everyone that came up and said hi to us and join us during our sessions. We met folks from bourbon societies from in shape coming from Chicago and St. Louis and everywhere in between. and if you haven't done so yet, please go check out our Instagram page as well as bourbon and beyond official Instagram to see all the awesome pictures. I hope you feel some photo and you will be there next year. And another huge shout out to Fred Minnick for including us as a regular part of the bourbon programming. It was an awesome experience. And anybody that has been there will tell you, it was one for the record books. All right, it's news time. So let's dig into this. Last week, we announced the press release for the 2019 Buffalo Trace antique collection on our Facebook page. It's one of the most highly anticipated releases that are coming out from the 2:00 all season amongst our enthusiasm. Maybe it's also one of the most frustrating but hats off the soundtrack for always keeping a level head and doing their best to price these at a $99 MSRP. For the past few years, however, odds are, it's gonna be really hard to find that in most retail locations. We will be getting our sample soon and we'll be releasing a five minute whiskey quickie when we get it recorded as soon as we can. New riff is releasing a new heirloom rye called Bow Bow rye. This was distilled in June of 2015 and will be four years old and bottled at 100 proof without chill filtration. That low rye is one of the first specialties New Roof made back in 2015. Their corn farmer Charles fog had been grilling heirloom rye on his family farm for many years. He's chosen a variety of was called Bow Bow rides and heirloom grain which dates back to the 1940s as a rye variety that's popular in Indiana. He offered it to new riff and they distilled it into rye whiskey probably the first time in 3:00 decades that Bow Bow has been made into whiskey. And quite surely the only example on the market today, Bow Bow grain is a little smaller than modern varieties with a lower output per acre of planting. So there's just a little bit more tidbit or fact about what is Bow Bow arrived. This will have a suggested retail price of 4999. As a side note, I was actually able to sample this when we recorded a podcast with Ken Lewis of new riff a few months ago and I'm telling you, it's going to be worth getting a bottle very quality ride. Kentucky out is going to be releasing batch nine and October. The latest introduction from the Wise Man's bourbon is the boldest highest proof addition to date from Master Blender Dixon Desmond, it's coming in at 127.6 proof. This release is made with four different disciplines from four different mash bills including a 15 year old, two different lots of 14 year olds, a 12 year old, a seven year old and a six year old 4:00 lid, Kentucky albertan. batch nine will be releasing 10,314 bottles into 42 US states with a suggested retail price of $299 and 99 cents. Alright, so today's episode, it's got a lot of things wrapped up in one. This is the first release of two of the bourbon seminars that took place during bourbon and beyond. It's also the first time that we've had the Van Winkle family on the show before. Julian gives some history into the brand about where they were sourcing and the timeline of when it all became part of the Aztec portfolio as well. Then some of the juicy details start emerging. One of Julian's daughters talks about the emergence of Pappy and CO and how she is more of a tequila person and never really gets to drink any of the family bourbon. Then Preston talks about their involvement with the crackdown on the secondary market Facebook groups, which he implied that was really there as a counterfeit money. 5:00 During now, the whole time, Fred keeps a lot of good questions rolling that you're going to find very interesting here. And the second half of this podcast is a live recording that we did at Burton beyond on stage of the Community Roundtable, we share our thoughts on the festival and what we loved about it, as well as the news that broke the evening prior. There's almost too much going on, but it's timely and chock full of good nuggets that you're going to enjoy. Now, I will be the first to admit that the audio experience here is probably not going to be the best as everyone on stage was holding a handheld microphone and when that happens, you know, it's going to be bumping into things. You're gonna have some sound bleed that was coming from the other stages. And when we were recording this, it was feeding off of a soundboard so we could just get the best as that we could. So sorry in advance that, you know, really, we hope that the effort that we want to actually bring this to you is worth it as well. And of course since we weren't always 6:00 too, there's not going to be any video available as a part of this as well. So you'll be able to just do a lot of listening. So if you're driving, then continue as normal or walking or working out or whatever it is. But if you're watching this on YouTube or Facebook will get you next time, I promise. All right, now let's dive in. We've got Joe over a barrel bourbon, and then you've got Fred Minnick with above the jar. 6:23 Hi, this is Joe from barrell craft spirits. We work with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America's most curious cask strength whiskies. Find out more at barrell bourbon com. I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. This past weekend was the conclusion of my Super Bowl. bourbon and beyond. Leon bridges Alison Krauss ZZ Top Foo Fighters john Fogarty. Zac Brown band. Oh my gosh, there were so many great headliners, including Robert Plant himself from Led Zeppelin. 7:00 He didn't just come out playing his stuff from his bluegrass days he was singing Led Zeppelin, bourbon and beyond was so amazing. And I am honored to be its curator and a co founder in the festival. My baby is the Kentucky gold stage. And what happened on the bourbon workshops is absolutely historic. You had Jordan from breaking bourbon. You've had Blake from bourbon or Kenny and Ryan were up there. Carla Carlton, the managing editor for bourbon plus, Susan regular Fon Weaver, Peggy know Stephens on and on and on. So many wonderful talented bourbon people were on that stage dropping knowledge and it was just fantastic. The crowds were packed, you could not get a place to get a tasting and people were just standing way in the back by the gates just listening to people talk about bourbon. This was unprecedented even in year 8:00 past we didn't draw these kinds of crowds around the bourbon workshops. And if you were one of those people, and you were there listening to the Van Winkle talk about their family heritage, you learn something so, so breaking for like our little world, this little bubble that we call bourbon. And that was when President Van Winkle said that his family worked with Facebook legally to take down the secondary markets. I was stunned by it. But I want to give you some context into this whole format of the festival. That Kentucky gold stage is to the left and about a half a football field to three quarters of football field away from our about a football field away from the main stages and while we are talking musicians are playing so their sound bleed into us now, because the panelists have their are speaking into the microphone. The people in the audience can 9:00 Hear them. But on the stage, we often depending on the musician, we can hear more of the music than some of the panelists who are left or right. And also, we were instructed by our stage manager to really get into the microphone and not yell, but speak very thoroughly and deeply. So the recording you're about to hear has, it sounds much, much different than what it was like for me on stage. So I was instructed to speak loudly into the microphone. And so it's going to sound like I'm screaming a little bit, but really, I'm talking to the crowd, not necessarily speaking to be recorded. So that over excitement, that's a stage voice that's that's kind of my way to speak to the crowd. And the van winkles, you know, they're also speaking a little louder, but they're not as loud as me. So as you will soon learn, so that this was recorded by bourbon pursuit at 10:00 bourbon and beyond festival and it's definitely a voice I would not use for normal recording. With that said, I have been working with the van winkles for two years to get them on stage bourbon and beyond. And last year we got rained out so they couldn't come on. This year they donated three bottles of Pappy Van Winkle, and told us a lot about their struggles coming through through the bourbon business and how he almost gave it up. But it wasn't until Preston Van Winkle started talking about how he feels about the secondary market and the counterfeiters and the flippers that my jaw just dropped. I was not expecting that on the stage, not at all. So sit back, enjoy and listen and just know that this was this was recorded around a couple thousand people. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram at Frederick 11:00 Nick again at Fred MC. Until next week, cheers. 11:07 Hey guys, my name is Jackie psych and I'm the master taster for old forester. And my dear friend Fred medic has actually been so nice to let me MC this stage for earning beyond this year and he's a man who has done so much for this bourbon industry. And he really is shaping how we are experiencing bourbon today, obviously look at all of us here together. But yet for Fred Mac. 11:32 And I mean, he's the only one that wears the mascot when it's 100 degrees outside. So you know, just for that alone, you deserve an applause Thank you very much just because I have a very ugly neck. 11:44 Well, Jackie, I am so excited about this particular seminar. Look at all the people who are here to get to hear the story about Pappy Van Winkle. All right. Joining me on the stage Carrie. greener Carrie. Come on. 12:00 Beco the son of Julian Van Winkle, her brother Preston Van Winkle. He's the guy who gets all the hate emails whenever somebody can't get happy. And the man, the myth, the legend, Julian Van Winkle, who brought his grandfather's name back, ladies and gentlemen, I want to introduce you to one of the greatest pallets of the 20th century, Julian Van Winkle. So Van Winkle, thank you very much for taking the stage with me at bourbon and beyond. And I met you backstage, and I was so disappointed in all of you 90 degrees for it. Were they drinking bourbon? Know where they drinking water know where they drinking Irish Whiskey scotch, Brandy or a beer know? What? What were they drinking vodka. 12:59 It's hot. 13:01 Julian, if Pappy had known that his grandson and great grandson and great granddaughter were drinking vodka, before they were going on the stage to talk about their family legacy, what do you think he would say? Smart, smart guy, hey, 13:20 I'm not a I'm a when I when I take a drink, I like a lot of flow into my throat when it's hot. So if I did that with bourbon or some other brown spirit, it would be an ugly afternoon or ugly evening. So, vodka is a little kinder to the brain than some of the other whiskey. So. All right, well, the bottle has gotten too much stage time as it is. Exactly. So let's move on. I want to talk about what it was like. what it was like growing up in the van Winkle household because your dad was out trying to promote American whiskey. When nobody wanted to drink it. What was it like seeing your dad out on the on the 14:00 pavement trying to sell whiskey. Well, it wasn't easy at all actually looking back it's he has scars on his head in 14:10 warehouses, right. Yeah from warehouses. So when we were little, you know, he'd leave really early in the morning he was into distilling the bourbon down to Lawrenceburg, Kentucky. And so 14:21 it was not anything pretty what you might imagine it was no Camelot from back at the stairwell or days it was full on grunt work. And, yeah, he would sprained his ankle and he would leave early and come home late and luckily on the weekends, we would go down there to learn to work with him. So for us, it was an amazing childhood. He wasn't gone all the time, because luckily we were able to be there with him and enjoy that. The bottling plant and it's right on a creek in Lawrenceburg, Kentucky. It was like a dilapidated building, but he was just working hard all day every day making it work, and we were there playing 15:00 Along with them so 15:01 now Preston, 15:04 I know you pretty well. Did you ever sneak in there and and steal a little whiskey from your dad when you were growing up? 15:12 Steal whiskey like from the liquor cabinet or from the bottling Hall. So there are multiple places you were stealing whiskey. 15:22 Actually, by the time I was able to appreciate it 15:29 I was it was 15:33 there wasn't really anything to steal. It was under lock and key pretty well and I was working for dad so 15:41 but I do remember 15:44 I do remember pinch in a bottle here. There are some some old stuff that was it wasn't anything good. It was stuff that was ultimately sold in Japan because that was the only place you could get rid of it. 16:00 $5,000 on the secondary market, there's none of it left. Thankfully, 16:05 we had our family had nothing to do with the distillation of that particular product but the labels were popping off of the bottles and they had been in the in the warehouse for a good many years. But in terms of stealing booze from dad and my sisters were not quite as good at it. Oh, frozen bottles of vodka in the freezer. 16:30 Okay, all right, let's all right, let's just go ahead and have Fred Yeah, I gotta say, it's true. That's fair. We drink bourbon if it was a cool September day, but it's just not that yet. So all right. Okay. All right. So Julian, did you ever have you you were on the road? A lot trying to make 16:51 Pappy Van Winkle or old Rip Van Winkle work. What was it like? 16:57 What was it like and bourbon and the 17:00 1980s and 1990s when nobody wanted it 17:05 well, it was, it was a struggle. My dad, 17:09 of course started working for him in 1977. And 17:13 at that point, 17:15 the bourbon part was not popular. So all the distilleries put their product in the Cantor's 17:21 and some ugly some fantastic but that's what it took with to sell the whiskey was put it in a figurine or an apothecary bottle or something. So that was the hard sell is to get a 17:34 liquor store and prospect Kentucky or wherever to pay 17:40 eight bucks wholesale for a bottle of whiskey back then which would sell for 12 or 15 maybe so that was the hard part and to sell a bottle of whiskey. We just RO written Van Winkle was next to impossible but it was bottle bottle and so forth. So it was a it was it was quite something it was it was an uphill battle. 18:00 To say the least. Now you also, you also use your whiskey as currency like you would you would barter with it, you would trade a couple bottles or a case for a magazine advertisement. And those days. Yes, we fellow that we end up meeting through the horse business and Lexington did some advertising was from New York. 18:21 He came down to this dairy and found out about her whiskey because his customer who was a horse farm owner, enjoyed the whiskey and found out about it. And he actually, he bought a case from the distillery and took a case of whiskey with him on the airplane and put it in the overhead. So that was hilarious. 18:40 But we did barter for advertising because I didn't have any money to pay for advertising. So we did barter, which was it worked. It was all I gotta say, what would you say? Would you say that there was ever a moment that you were in jeopardy of closing the company. I would say that what happened about once a month. 19:00 Wow, seriously, I'm not being facetious. I would say that 19:05 the timing was perfect on this. 19:08 But 19:09 it was I would, I was buying whiskey by the barrel. And occasionally the distilleries would turn, would change their mind and not sell me any barrels. And I was buying whiskey from several different distilleries as many distilleries did. Back then, there was a lot of whiskey being traded around. The label that you bought under that distillery was not necessarily from that the story. And that still happens today, obviously, too, but I did a lot of 19:36 got nixed on buying barrels. So I was turned down and I thought, well, this is it. I'm done here, but it's the only thing I knew how to do. 19:45 My dad wanted me to work for a banker or sell insurance or something. And I said, Well, that's no fun. I'm just gonna stick with this. And it was more tenacity than anything because I had no other choice and just stuck with it. They look obviously it kind of worked out. 20:00 What What do you all think? Are you all glad that he stuck with it? 20:05 Now I think I am. 20:09 President definitely is. Did you as a child, did you feel that stress that your father was going through? 20:20 That's hard to say. 20:22 I could tell that he was overworked a lot of times. But at the same time, even with the early mornings and late nights, he usually made it home for dinner. 20:37 A lot of times with 20:39 a sack of sliders or 20:43 box up 20:45 club sandwiches from men's cafe down on story Avenue, 20:50 but usually made it home for dinner. So I guess that felt the stress so much because when we go down and help them in the bottling Hall, it was 21:00 It was fun. He made it fun. We helped fill bottles, put labels on. I remember one day filling like 1000 Statue of Liberty 50 ml decanters 21:13 with a soda fountain gun with my cousins. So the stress was kind of taken out of it and he always made time for 21:24 going to Louisville Redbirds games and Louisville Thunder games and whatever the 21:30 the hockey team the 21:33 river frogs, so we always had 21:37 guys made time for us as kids. So I don't know that I felt the stress. I feel like the only time I really realized that things were getting tough was when a 21:50 group of Japanese buyers came over. And like if they didn't have a good time, that was it like that could have been a while to the 22:00 road but they had a great time we took them and play golf i i caddied for them. And it was 22:07 one of the most fun funniest experiences of my life but 22:13 that was probably the only time that I I really recognized that things could be a little bit you know, on thin ice. So Carrie Did you feel like your dad ever brought the work problems home? No. And I think I we actually learned that from him. It's like you just work hard Put your head down during the day and then you try to cut it off at night and yeah, so we just knew he worked hard, but did not feel that like Preston said he was he was there the night and on the weekends and I never never felt anything like that. 22:50 I think that's a testament to you, Julian. I admit I bring work home. I it's hard. It's really really hard. I think to when you're just when you don't have 23:00 Any other way of being and it's all you know that you don't really have any other way of doing it. So it was the only way you knew how and luckily it was 23:10 being a dad and being 23:13 a great family member and just working hard and, like all the whole theme here for me and all this is like it's all you know, it's all you do, and when you work hard, and you just do what's right and real, it all worked out. 23:27 Now Carrie is one of three she is a triplet. And I've actually never asked 23:36 I've never asked Julian This Has there ever been a moment with your triplets? That you miss just one of them for the other? 23:45 Mostly when they're walking down the hall from the back, I would always say you know, carry Lewisham or whatever and it would be the other one because from the front, that's I've known him since day one. It's a little easier, but I did have mistaken Amen. 24:01 And then on the phone up the phone conversation especially you know the last several years carry lives in Idaho and everybody lives here now but but they will call up and I think I'm talking to Louise and it's scary or something. So it's, it's, it is a little confusing we just a real quick story went to Target one day and they were really small and I'm checking out and so fellas checking me out going, is that three twins 24:27 because it's hard to describe, you know what you're looking at? Because triplets are a little different than twin lot of twins. But uh, we did get them confused. We had a magic marker on on one of the girls when they were first born on their heels. Not to mention he was 30 and he had four children. He had Preston and then within a year and a half he had three more and looking back at age 30 enough to see what he was able to do with his career and raise children and do it so gracefully. Please give your mother some credit for the raising 25:00 mature. Yeah, thank God he had her as a god, she should have come so she could have heard that. But she's babysitting some grandchildren. Yeah. You just mentioned that you were on the verge of closing your company. 25:14 And then something happened in the 1990s. You got you got a perfect score. 25:21 And everybody wanted Pappy, tell me about that. That big moment of when when you kind of turn the corner when you knew that you wouldn't have to close your doors. Tell me about that. Julian. 25:34 Well, the story was we sent our distributor in Chicago, unbeknownst to me sent a sample to the beverage tasting Institute for the beverage taste, the world beverage tasting, what they call it the beverage tasting Institute, world, world whiskey competition or something and we got a 99 and they publish that in the one in a Wired magazine called the wine enthusiast and 26:00 got out of the trade and then our phone started ringing. And that was really kind of the kickoff of I mean, you all know wine vodka, whiskey, anything. When it gets a good rating you want to you want it even though it has you have no idea if you like it or not because that guy over there might like something and that guy over there might like something and they're completely different tasting, but we got lucky and 26:24 got some publicity and that's kind of when it started so the phone started ringing and then it kind of not really took off but that was the that was the the the genesis of this whole thing I think when that when that was which was pure luck really as far as getting in that tasting and a lot of this is luck, believe me. And when what was what was the move over when you when you chose to partner with Buffalo Trace. What was your thinking behind going to partner with Buffalo Trace? 26:57 Well, they actually knocked on my door a year before 27:00 We hooked up and bought it because they own they own one of our brands WL well or was my granddad used to work for Mr. Weller here in Louisville. And the audio head on the brands, they ran all those brands brands into the brand, pretty much because they didn't sell well for them. So they sold them all off and Buffalo Trace bought WL Weller, and they had had it since 1999. So 2001 they asked me to do a joint venture with them. And I wasn't interested because I've been working by myself for myself except for my son for a long time. So 27:35 it was foreign to me to work with anybody for anybody and not especially for anybody. 27:41 But I finally smartened up after a little discussions with them, and I knew that I wasn't making whiskey for the future. I was buying aged bourbon, which was available back then but down the road. It's the way you have to think in the bourbon market. Our business plan is 23 years long. I don't know what you all 28:00 Do but we have the longest business plan and next next to a lumber person who grows an 80 year old white oak tree, it's pretty incredible. So I needed future whiskey to put down for the future. So that's why mainly we hooked up with them. Plus they were making Weller and same formula as ours, which was still our my grandfather's formula. So it was a it was a it was a great moment so it and it's been a great relationship and and there you know with their soon as we hooked up with them the marketing and the sales force and the promotion. That's, you know, it's a little bit overdone, I guess, because we really don't need to market this brand. But 28:40 we did back in the day and it's it's taken off and 28:45 it's it's it's been incredible. It really has but you know No, Sazerac Buffalo Trace has really been a big part of it. And it doesn't hurt that Harlan weeklies the best distiller of American whiskey. Now he's pretty good. He's won a lot of awards. 29:00 person wins a lot of awards. Yeah, he runs he runs a tight ship he's actually a real master distiller you know? Yes it's not it's not it's not the title that was given to him easily now I'm not a marketer. So one of the things with with with the rise of Pappy and everybody you know standing in long lines there's there's there's been a little bit of vitriolic kind of nature come your way and carry you and I have talked about this sometimes. How does that how does that make you feel when you see like people lamenting about the fact they can't get a glass of Pappy or you know they're throwing out some kind of crazy conspiracy theory don't get started. Well, that's why we're here. I'm here to get you started. Easy carry holder. Hold your lesson. I don't work for the distillery just so you don't 29:55 notice, I asked Carrie this question. 29:59 Well, I'll just say 30:00 I have my own company that I started six years ago with my sister's Pappy and Company, which is the merchandise side of our of our business. And so we get a lot of inquiries, just just because we're obviously within the family realm of business. And so there's a lot of haters out there, and it's very easy to respond to those haters. And my, what I say is that, you know, I think when people understand the nature of the business and the nature of our brand, it becomes very clear that, you know, I would love for you to be an appreciator and respect your of the brand and understand it. And so I think the easiest thing to tell people is that if you think about, you know, the youngest age that we bottle is 10 years and it goes up to 23 years so not many other people have to, to plan ahead in that kind of 30:54 increments. So when I think they realized that this is not an intentional thing that we 31:00 Done, we haven't intentionally held back product to increase demand we have not worked with or they have not worked with a marketing team to create anything. It's literally creating a product that you believe in and the rest happens naturally and organically. So we're no cold brand that we tried to create. It's literally like we've said from the very beginning putting your head down and working and so when people really understand that and see that it's nothing about marketing, you know, the world we live in is so faithful of just creating a brand and creating this fake story behind it and going out there and selling it. It's like, we are caught up in that and so I can understand that maybe if you don't know enough about the brand that that's your first instinct is to completely judge and say oh, it's, you know, there, it's intentional and you learn a little bit more. It's very easy to then be appreciator of the brand. Now Preston, you actually deal with the haters on a regular basis. What's it like daily 31:59 there 32:00 There are a lot of misconceptions with our brands. There's a lot of 32:06 there are a lot of people that I guess are, 32:09 for lack of a better term, but hurt that they can't get our product. So 32:14 they would rather spew hatred than just accept the reality that this has happened organically. It's not 32:23 it's it wasn't an intentional thing that we've created. Artificial demand people accuse of accuse us of creating artificial demand to increase prices will. We're not the ones benefiting from these crazy aftermarket prices. It's the retailers that are benefiting it's the the people that are illegally buying and selling via Craigslist and Facebook and stuff that are benefiting it's not us. And it would be asinine to hold that product 32:57 that we could profit from selling 33:00 In order to, again artificially create demand, it's just it is what it is. We're not making chairs or fidget spinners. We're making 10 to 23 year old bourbon. So it takes time. Nobody could have anticipated the explosion and demand for for bourbon in general, but especially premium Bourbons and our Bourbons, especially 33:25 1520 years ago, we would have mattered from a production standpoint. So we basically got caught with our pants down. So we can't, we can't catch up instantly. We're we are trying to catch up we've got more 1012 and 15 year old than we've ever had, but it's still a drop in the bucket compared to demand. Demand is going up like this while supply is kind of ratcheting up Yeah, at a slower pace and we are increasing production every year, but we're doing so at a 34:01 What you would what most would consider a pretty conservative rate, because of this whole thing goes to put if this whole bourbon boom goes bust, we don't want to be sitting on top of a Laker whiskey we can't sell we've been on that side of the coin. And that's basically what forced my grandfather to sell oil or in the early 70s was nobody cared about bourbon at that point. So we don't want to be on that side of the coin. And actually, Julian, your father gave an interview to the North Carolina newspaper in the 1970s saying that if you think you can, you can sell 5000 bottles, make 2000 if you think you could sell 10,000 make 5000 so it seems to be like very much ingrained in the DNA of the van winkles to make less than the demand is, it is it's obviously when you're when you grew up with something and that's in the back of your head. 35:00 You know, Pappy always said fine bourbon profit. You know, that Yeah, yeah. But always find bourbon profit loss, whatever, but 35:10 you, I don't care what you do and that's, I can't I gotta keep my mouth shut here a little bit but with any product if you make too much of it and the quality goes down 35:22 your your price that you're going to get for it also goes down. And if you keep the quality up there and the quantity reasonable, I think your business plan is a lot better. 35:33 You know, we're comfortable with the business we have. We don't want to, we don't have and it's different. We don't have stockholders behind us. You're looking at the stockholders or some some of them right here in our company, all three or four or five or six of us. 35:49 It's you, you, you know, you hit we don't have anybody to answer to so that's the problem with the big companies. They have to make money. Quality goes down. So that's 36:00 And we're not gonna, we're not going to do that. So what is the what is the relationship with Buffalo Trace from a business perspective? Can they dictate to you your whiskey supply where you store your barrels? It's complicated, but basically we we own the brand. We own 51% of our brands. So it's a it's a joint venture. So it's all one big happy family. So if there's big business decision to be made, we have the final word on it. So when they're when they're distilling the weighted bourbon recipe, is it Pappy Van Winkle day and they put it in there or is it all Weller and Pappy Van Winkle day and then you guys get barrels and you just choose where? How does that work? We production as we production and then within the Buffalo Trace campus, there are certain warehouses there are certain spots within certain warehouses that have shown over decades 36:55 that they produce the best 36:59 finished product 37:01 Especially at our age statements. 37:06 So we get first crack at the best of the best of the barrels. So when a barrel is produced at Buffalo Trace with the weeded recipe, it's not earmark necessarily for Weller, or 10 year old rip or 15 year old Pappy or 23 year old Pappy or whatever. It's more about where it ends up in a warehouse based on 37:28 space constraints and with they're building two new warehouses a year for the next 10 years. 37:36 So the tune of about $1.2 billion. So so what I just heard there is that William William Murray, well, our cash drink was not good enough to be happy. 37:49 Not necessarily. No, that's not what I heard. Okay, well, not necessarily. 37:55 There are guys giving me the evil eye. There are certainly barrels that we reject. 38:00 jack that on their own would be just fine. Yeah. But they're just not up to our I don't want to say standards. But our palates are very laser focused on 38:16 our products people have described both of us as having these amazing, amazing palettes but why we need to get involved. It's it's more that our palates are laser focused on 38:30 what we produce, and why we have what we like and what we like. 38:36 We're very fortunate that other people seem to enjoy the same things that that we like. I do. I do believe that there is a there is a gift and the palette of being able to blend be able to mingle, two or three barrels or five barrels, whatever, to make a batch. A lot of people can pick a single barrel but to create like a batch. That's again, 39:00 That's a gift. Julian does Preston have the does he have the types of the same touches you he's he's always had it and I noticed that from the get go but you will find this out someday as you get older your flavor 39:16 ability to smell and taste goes away a little bit so 39:21 and of course we're all different our DNA is different but he's really good at it and you know, I'm thankful to have him and the staff at Buffalo Trace who do it every single day taste different different whiskeys but it's quite a it's quite an honor. And he's got it. He's got a got a nice little palette. What about Carrie Have you brought her in on the phone? Not yet, but she's I think she's, she's looking forward to getting in there someday. What do we gotta do Carrie? What do we got to do? 39:50 I don't know but she lives in Idaho. 39:54 It starts with moving died for to provide a home to Kentucky don't Louise live here. So that's true. You can 40:00 Get to the triplets. Yeah, if you all died tomorrow What would you do? You know, we got to start learning. Oh, 40:06 thanks 40:09 Karen you got a plan we need to know about healer. 40:13 No, I know I just you know, the more she talks the more I think she's gonna bump us off 40:19 I just you know, I just know we have three valuable pallets on the sidelines we can always learn learn that palette you know I do it is or just all joking. Oh, here here's an idea. Here's an idea. You could you could get you could come out with a new brand. Call it triplet, Van Winkle, tequila, tequila. 40:42 Tequila drinkers before they drink bourbon, no triplet tequila brand. 40:48 carries why you're not being asked to join these paddles. 40:54 It doesn't taste like tequila. 40:57 In 2013 I was a 41:00 I was a rookie judge on the San Francisco world spirits competition. I tasted this bourbon and we tasted a lot of different Bourbons and our meditation one I was like, I bet that's Pappy it's really fucking good. I hope it doesn't win. Even though I voted for it to win it because of the Pappy hype, right? I didn't want more Pappy hysteria. And sure enough, it was it was the Pappy Van Winkle 15 year old. This happens to be my favorite expression that you all put out. Is it yours to carry? Do you have a favorite expression of Pappy that's 41:35 honestly I love bourbon. I love our bourbon, but I honestly don't get to drink enough of it to be able to give a really strong opinion on that. But she still would like to be a taster. Yeah. 41:48 I have a lot to learn. But I do appreciate it very much. I think I know someone you can learn from. Right, right. So you don't have a favorite expression of your family's heritage. I mean 42:00 Honestly, truthfully, I, I don't get to drink it enough to really be able to pick up on that. I do know that I think he drinks at all before she gets a chance to I think I've had most recently like the 20 year and I'm like, Oh yeah, I'm like, No wonder people love it. I like that is insanely delicious. It's like dessert to me. And so I think I probably would go not for the 15 year because it's a little hot for me. So I probably go with the 20 year if I had to give Okay, well, there we go. We have something to say. There we go. So, in the bourbon business, they like to say, when you ask them, How should you drink it? They usually say drink it however you like. So I'm going to ask everyone up here. Is it okay to drink Pappy? 23 year old with Coca Cola 42:50 maybe Mexican coke. It's pretty good with that. 42:54 But no. 42:57 No, pushing it. That's pushing it exactly. 43:00 But I don't know why you would. Fred, what are you doing? 43:06 Yes, if you've got a word, you're gonna push back. If you've got a 43:12 few cases of 23 year old Pappy, and you got the money to burn, hey, whatever. But otherwise why would you? Why would you want to do that? You could get a perfectly good bottle of four year old bourbon to mix with your go. I'll just say that I guess a lot of other people besides us take it a lot more seriously than we do. And so I'll just say you know people, especially with Pappy and company, we make cocktails and mixed drinks and people kind of can give us a bad rap for that. It's like you know what, we love old fashions. We love Manhattan's we like bourbon cocktails we like all kinds of mixed drinks and so there's no harm in that so people definitely will be will say that to mix anything with any of our products. Even ice is wrong, but it's so 44:00 not wrong. What's the future for? For old Rip Van Winkle? Can we see a distillery? Are we going to continue on the same model? Are you talking to dad and breasted or me? 44:12 Are you going to start a distillery? 44:15 It's way too expensive. 44:17 We're good. Thanks. I would have done it a long time ago. But 44:23 you know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I would like to. But 44:28 we're definitely could change some distilling at Buffalo Trace to differentiate the Buffalo. I'm in the van Winkle from the Weller for sure. We're working on that. So To be continued, but 44:42 it's a it's a huge proposition and tons of money and you can go broke aging whiskey for 23 years is all I gotta say. So there's a lot of craft distillers out there, and they will soon find out what it takes to hold on to whiskey for a long period of time. Well, no, not only that, 45:00 But like starting a distillery, you're looking at like an entirely new 45:06 machine making your product and you're like, it's a gamble. You know, who knows what's going to be any good? Exactly yeast distilling equipment, it's all changes everything. So people say well just make it over there. We made it there. You can't do that water used equipment, copper, stainless. It's a lot of variables. So staying on the future of Pappy, we talked about pricing a little bit. And I was just at an option. I emceed an option at the speed museum on Thursday, where a lot of Pappy went for $17,500 little bit of change there that someone wanted to spend on some Pappy. And the market continually shows that it will, it will bear 45:55 you could triple your your MSRP and the market would still accept it. 46:00 Is there any thought about increasing your price, your MSRP we've 46:06 we've taken price increases, 46:10 like every other year is kind of been our model. 46:14 At a, again, a pretty conservative rate. 46:19 Our feeling is these brands were built on the backs of people who were willing to spend them the money on a on a product that 46:30 was more expensive than the average bourbon. 46:35 And 46:37 now it's gotten to the point where you know when 50 or 60 or 80 bucks was kind of the top end that people were willing to spend on a bourbon. 46:49 Those people are now spending 200 300 400 $500 on a bottle. 46:57 We don't want to price those people 47:00 out of the market for our products. 47:05 So, but still Yeah, still a slim chance they're gonna give it though. Yeah, we want to leave it out there. We've actually just we've taken a very minor price increase that will hit stores this year. It's still nothing compared to the Craigslist prices and the aftermarket prices, whatever. 47:25 But it's the assholes in the retail shops and on Craigslist that are making all the money not us. So if if they're going to charge that they're going to charge whatever they're going to charge. We can't control it legally anyway. We're doing okay. 47:41 We're going to continue to price where we see where we think that the suggested retail price should be. 47:50 And hope that retailers will fall in line we've we in Buffalo Trace have taken some steps to kind of curb the the secondary 48:00 Market Wait, what? What steps have you taken? Like, there are a lot of lot of dollars being thrown from a legal standpoint and getting Facebook groups shut down. So you all you all contribute it to shutting down the Facebook secondary markets. Yeah. 48:22 It's illegal first Firstly, it's illegal. And secondly, it makes it harder for these folks to get a bottle at a fair price which also has no sat right with us. You also don't know what you're getting in a bottle because there are tons of counterfeiters. So if you take one thing away from this little loud conference here to having today 48:45 thank god Our music is good. 48:49 If you buy something on the secondary market, you cannot guarantee what's going to be in that bottle. So our business was spread on word of mouth, if you will, please spread this one. 49:00 Don't buy on the secondary market because you cannot guarantee what's in that bottle because the counterfeiters are really good if they would put their effort into a legal deal they'd be billionaires but they choose to be illegal and 49:15 you don't know what you're going to get because 1500 bucks to get one of those capsules spinners and it costs probably another three or 400 bucks to get a box of those capsules, foil capsules 49:28 and if you're selling 49:31 zero dollar whiskey for 49:35 three grand it's a pretty good investment if your if your account you could get on eBay right now and find empty bottles of Pappy 49:45 and they're gonna be filled someday. Yeah, so for sure anybody got a good eBay account I could partner with you on for these two bottles. 49:57 smashing. I was joking actually. I can 50:00 You are alive. What about that yet? You really take very seriously Yeah, I actually had a consumer email me the other day and said, Hey, I found a case of empties. 50:13 Can I send them to you for a second life? We don't have any there's nothing we can do with them legally. So I just asked them to either scrape off the labels or smash the bottles to avoid them ending up on the secondary market because there are countless instances of people selling a bottle on eBay and that exact same bottle ending up on Craigslist or in a Facebook group for sale again for selling an empty and then that full bottle reappears. If you could, if you could be in a room with a known counterfeiter, 50:50 one on one 50:52 who was reselling 50:55 Why would you say or do to that person 51:00 would get arrested 51:03 at the end of it 51:05 it would Yeah, I'd be ugly. Wow. 51:10 a gallon of Chautauqua 51:13 could shut 51:16 down his throat or her throat or so do Yeah, yeah, I just make him drink the whole bottle of whatever rock they put in the bottle and hope that it was voiceprints 51:28 Wow. We're like we're deadly serious about this. It is just trying to protect our customer. Yeah, it's all over and the week we put out of what we feel is a high quality product and for somebody else to 51:44 benefit from that assumed quality when there is none is disheartening. I hear that, you know, the other side is for a lot of like consumers. You know, there's a lot of people who will never get in reach or be able to 52:00 buy a bottle, it's just very difficult to buy one. And, you know, they're those secondary markets, you know, for some people that provided that opportunity in some ways. I mean, what do you think about that I gave in some ways it could have been like an extension it's real though right? if if if it's real so like, do you do you feel like there's a solution there because it because I know you want to protect customers, but there's not a lot of happy to get to the customers and that's that's been the hard part. It's a fine line it really is. We hate to turn down you know, hated the people don't get to enjoy our whiskey as it will go to a bar where they sell it for a decent price. You can try it, you know, because it's more, sometimes more available in a bar, but it is a fine line. We have to tread there. So we're just trying to convince people to be careful and not go to the secondary market cuz I mean, you know the thing in 52:58 Costa Rica or somewhere Haiti 53:00 Somewhere where it was somewhere in the Caribbean there were the people were poisoned by people literally dying for their thing. You know, a minibar, it was poison so that's the best the bad part. Well, it happens every day all over the world, somebody dying from illicit alcohol. It just doesn't get reported because it wasn't an American tourist at a no inclusive resort in the Caribbean. It happens every single day in the UK, India, Russia, all over the world. 53:31 Well, I've been giving the that sign which means I have to close in here and we were just kind of get in some good stuff. And Julian I always love being on the stage with you. You're a fun person to talk to on the stage. Pressing carry things is the first time we've interacted like this and you guys are awesome. How about it ladies and gentlemen for the van winkles. 53:55 Thanks for I thank you all for coming. I will say one thing. There will never be a box 54:00 And beyond I just put that in your pipe and smoke it thanks Julian for the for the vodka hate their 54:10 the 2019 Kentucky's edge bourbon conference and festival Paris all things Kentucky with bourbon. It takes place October 4 and fifth and venues throughout Covington in Newport, Kentucky. Kentucky's edge features of bourbon conference music tastings, pairings, tours and an artisan market. Kentucky's edge 2019 is where bourbon begins. Tickets and information can be found online at Kentucky's edge.com 54:35 there are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever. So how do you find out the best stories and the best flavors? Rock house whiskey club, it's a whiskey the Month Club and they are on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer rock houses box shipped out every two months. It's a 40 states and rack houses October box there featuring a distillery with an interesting ingredient water from 55:00 The bull run watershed that has been protected by Congress since the 1870s. Rock house whiskey club the shipping up two bottles for the bullring distilling company out of Portland, Oregon, including AP nor finished American whiskey, go to rock house whiskey club. com to check it out and try some for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. To 91 Colorado whiskey aims to create a one of a kind, bold and beautiful Colorado whiskey. rugged, refined, rebellious distillery to 91 is an award winning small batch whiskey distillery, located in Colorado Springs Colorado, nestled in the shadow of Pikes Peak owner and founding distiller Michael Myers grew up on the family farms in Georgia and Tennessee, across the country side defined by rolling hills, horses and whiskey. He set out to create a flagship whiskey that evoke the Wild West. A cowboy walk into a bar saying give me a whiskey in the bartender slamming down a bottle. A bottle of to 91 Colorado whiskey 56:00 Find a bottle near you at 291 Colorado whiskey calm, right like you stole it. Drink it like you own it. Live fast. Drink responsibly 56:12 All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to bourbon beyond this right here is the bourbon pursuit Roundtable. We are joined here with my podcasting partner Kenny Coleman. And we've got Brian sip of corn Blake that also known as Cal Ripken of bourbon or, and Jordan from bait breaking bourbon, and of course, our MC and master taster for old Forester, Jackie ziketan. What's up everybody? Yo, 56:43 hey, I mean, I don't know about you all. I think our age is starting to show my back's already hurt. And I know about you all. It's been a long few days. But last night is standing up for a while heard a little bit but 56:55 I'm wondering Hey Jackie does being barefooted help you with the backend stuff as it helps 57:00 ground and Sunday. Yeah, you know, the Barefoot the Barefoot movement is real. I learned about this and I these things are practically barefoot. So anyway, so we're at bourbon and beyond, and everybody out here has is on a panel or has been on the stage. And we've all been moderators or MC the whole time. And I just want to get a quick thought of what, what you've learned or what were some of your takeaways from your panels, or what you've listened to. I'll start with you, Brian. Sure. I did the whiskies dark past and the the amount of knowledge that we had from Chris Morris and Bernie lovers and Susan regular was just amazing. You I don't think you can get three more knowledgeable people on stage at once. And we focused on lawlessness, I sort of focus on the law. So it was the opposite of what I normally do. But it was it was great and a great opportunity to have that. So thanks, Fred. What what was a good juicy story that came out of there? Well, I thought Chris 58:00 was going to going to say that the prohibition style 1920 evoked the lawlessness and he actually went the opposite direction and said brown Forman is focusing on law on them being within the law during Prohibition and having one of the medicinal licenses. So that was the one thing that surprised me but the the juiciest things I think came from Bernie and Susan about George Ramis. And that's where you really get into the murders. You got a guy who goes to jail during Prohibition, gets out, murders his wife in front of everybody in Cincinnati, and gets off on one of the first uses of the insanity defense. So a lot of great stories on the lawlessness side of bourbon. That's what we consider a great story. Yeah. What one other thing is that brown, brown Forman actually bought bourbon from George Remus through his secretary after he was in jail. So the government would allow people what they would seize the bootleggers. 59:00 barrels and then sell them back to distillers. So I think that this the the government was really double dip and makin prohibition, probably triple dipping. Sure they would tax it after that. That's right or chance. So, Blake, what have you What have you learned out here today? Yes, today's my seminar is still to come this afternoon. So you'll get to hear me twice today which I'm sure is exciting. But so it's going to be on sweet match for sour mash. And we have Pat Heiss promoter and his trail and then Caleb from peerless, so. I'm excited for that one. But you know, all the seminars have been great. I think there was a lot of stuff that popped up in the master distiller paying on Friday as well as the Van Winkle one, you know, that one. 59:42 Definitely had a lot of cool details coming out of it. So it's been it's cool just to see people kind of up close and a little more laid back setting where give somebody some bourbon and you don't always get the same PR answer as you may get in a normal and you let the secret start flowing. Yeah, that's what we want. 1:00:00 That's that's kind of really that's kind of been my vision and curating these panels, get people drunk. 1:00:06 They would reinforce 1:00:09 people talk and you know it, they're they're very different. And you can't 1:00:15 it's not like a camera interview or anything like that. It's not to say that we're trying to get gotcha questions or anything. But, you know, I, the the, the distilleries don't always realize that their marketing goes against them, because they don't let the real stories come out. And the real stories to me are always so much better. I'm curious what you like I didn't get to catch the master distiller one was there, was there a good real story in there that really caught your attention? You know, I think just the question was brought up about should there be like a union of master distillers or what does that really mean? And you hear them all just kind of the respect is like, No, we don't need a union, but we don't want somebody just popping up and using the name as well. Like 1:01:00 masters just somebody has all this experience and then I think it was in this one but the kind of the quote that stands out to me is trip Simpson from barrel bourbon. He says you know garbage in garbage out like you gotta as a master you gotta know the process from beginning to end and doesn't doesn't just stop at distillation or in the barrel and so just you know they have to oversee the entire process which is interesting. It most of them say that the proof is in their whiskey Yeah, right that's what they want to say it and maybe they should also keep a shame list if they want to make sure that there's this list Yeah, well that take the name like this just all back back store kind of stories between him. Yeah, you MC the what is a master distiller? I did, what was that like for you? It was good. You know, it's it's a good melting of minds of everybody that we've had on the podcast before to come up and kind of talk but also in more of a laid back way. You know, for me, it wasn't more or less just getting answers out of them, but it was also seeing the crowd and kind of having them have an opportunity to build 1:02:00 Let's see like, Oh, these are the people like these are the stories behind that the whiskey that they're drinking every single day. And I think for me, I love being able to see the the crowd out here and be able to really harness and get some more those inside details. I think that's really the coolest part because we're able to bring a lot of the information from really what's happening inside kind of share that with the world. And they have an opportunity to really understand what goes on behind some of these doors that you know, when Jackie sitting here trying to taste and figure out Oh, what's this year's all for the birthday bourbon going to be like, you know, we can be able to share that. And that's really what the opportunity here is able to make that happen. Now, Jordan, I know you've been watching, you've got a panel today, right? Yeah, my panel is going to be right after this. Stick around. You got the old fashioned versus a Manhattan. I do. And this is one where everyone's always asking me like what's your favorite cocktail? And there's this huge debate in like the bartending world of what is better for bourbon. Is it the old fashion or Manhattan so where are you where 1:03:00 Are you going to take this? What can we expect you where you're going to push one way or the other? I don't know. You know, I think everyone really has their own favorite right personal preference. Both are great. But I think there's a lot of variation talks. There's no set until that party line. He's making a hard push for vodka soda, so that's gonna be okay, listen, no more. 1:03:20 The stage, it's better. We all need Manhattan. No, no, okay, no, no. Sorry, yeah, but I'm gonna say this. 1:03:28 Say this later. And I'm gonna cross that line and back and forth multiple times a day. But in my previous life before being a part of the old forester team, I was a beverage director and I had to train bartenders across different states across different bars. And I would always tell them what their Manhattan so and with any cocktail you stirred, you taste it to make sure your delusions correct, right. You taste you tasting, tasting, until you get to the point where the Manhattan where it tastes like absolute shit. And then you did it right. Because that's Manhattan. 1:03:56 Wow. We're starting 1:03:59 it 1:04:03 A dual behind stage here after this. And that concludes old fashioned Merce Manhattan. Wow. So you've also been watching the seminars what's caught your eye? Yeah, I think there's been you know, this festival has been great, great music, great talks. I think we had Kenny Europe here yesterday with Wes Anderson dropping some, some knowledge about the forthcoming bottle and bond ride for angels, me rock, angels me. And it's just been a great place to you know, here's the music in the background. You're gonna hear a lot of good influential bourbon things, but it's also one of the few festivals. Go back to the big bourbon 10 grab a bourbon master distillers just walking around, they just want to say hi, grab a drink. It's awesome. It's a definitely one of the few places that you can see something like this. So I'm glad we're all here to experience that. Now, the one of the panels I moderated was with the Van Winkle family, and they dropped all the juice 1:04:55 came out they of course Preston Van Winkle said that 1:05:00 They had hired lawyers and work with Facebook to shut down the secondary market. What's everybody's take on that? How long is this panel? 1:05:09 No, we're not on the radar. I'll jump in. It's something we've discussed a lot and that was always kind of the rumor you know, not the rumor in Buffalo Trace as our company would always say, you know, they hated the secondary market and all this stuff so to get the confirmation that Yeah, they're spending millions of dollars 1:05:31 i don't think you know, we are in the bourbon. I always call it nerd world of people who talk way too much about it, but I don't think they like that, you know, love it or hate the secondary market. It helped build a lot of these brands and build a lot of the hype and everything else. So then you're also attacking it at the same time and I always go back to if I can't find a bottle at retail, so my only option is just not to drink it at all because the supply is just so small compared to the demand. It 1:06:00 least you know, you could have that secondary market and nobody likes flipping but it was a lot more than that. Well, and I think people always assumed that they liked the secondary market because no one would buy well or special reserve if it weren't for the secondary market and the hype, the artificial hype. That's why I think it's important that we separate Sazerac from the Van Winkle family. I think, I think I think it's very important here because what I what I took away from, from that conversation yesterday, that they really felt the secondary market damage them and they felt that they were were victims of retailers jacking the prices up and everything and they didn't have a solution other than go to the bar, but at the same time, Preston kept saying, like, we're not the ones getting that money. We're not the ones getting that money. And, and then they brought up counterfeiting. So I think that was interesting, right? I think there was a little bit 1:07:00 is clear they want to get some of that money. But more so when you you know, when you read some of the blowback online today, it was a lot of folks were wondering and someone spending the money on lawyers shut down the secondary, put that money towards counterfeiting measures try and make bottles a little bit safer, it's going to take place no matter what you might as well make it safer for the consumers that they know what they're getting is actually going to be the product they put out, like put your resources towards something that's going to do well for the consumer. Katie, I've only like I haven't really been online to see what the response has been other than like a who's tagged me on Twitter, but what's it What's it been like? I know you track that stuff. Within a few hours after posting I think we had almost 200 comments on the picture of people kind of given their their take on it. And you know, I think what Preston said and being able to go against counterfeiting is is it's a real thing. If anybody actually tries to go out there, there's counterfeit bourbon on the market. People can buy foils from China and you can reseal and you can do a lot of different stuff. And they do that. Now when I look at it, I thought the the secondary market was healthy. 1:08:00 But it's also become unhealthy. You know, if he says that we're trying to stop counterfeits, and, you know, maybe that is one portion of it. And and I think another part is saying that he wants the money or somebody has to have that money. Well, the end of the day, the way this is going to work out, it's just the retailers are going to make the money because if they're going to be pricing it at secondary prices, they're the ones making the money. Now I see potentially the future of how this could eventually shift is if the three tier system has a rapid change, and there's more direct from the manufacturer to the consumer market available. Yeah, but the retail industry is going to block that and the wholesale industry will block that as much as they can. What one thing that I also took away from 1:08:46 from the van winkles was how how much anger there was toward this subject. I mean, I don't know if you could feel it, but I could feel I could feel it coming off. 1:09:00 I mean, it was 93 degrees out here. Yes, yeah. 1:09:03 Right. He was he was really. And he It's like he wanted to get that off of his chest. He really did, which I'm sure they get a ton of blowback from all of that of people mad that they can't find their bourbon. And then, you know, it's kind of the easy target is to say, Oh, I can't find Pappy Van Winkle. Because the secondary market, you know, whether or not that's true, I'm sure they, you know, I'd be frustrated too. I just think it was probably a, you know, maybe not where they wanted to aim the anger directly at the secondary market. I think there's a plug or a lot of other issues behind that. Then just recently, well, and you have to remember to so Pappy is about to drop pretty soon in the coming weeks and months. So there, you know, they must be going to constantly, we're not gonna be able to find it. It's too expensive, and that just probably boils up right towards the fall. So that's all bubbling towards the top of their mind right now. And it was it was just prime time for that to come out. I'm very glad they came on the stage because you know, they didn't 1:10:00 too, and you know, they knew I was going to. I didn't share the questions with them, but they've been with me before and they know that I asked questions so you'd like to throw a few curveballs once in a while. 1:10:13 But Preston did admit that he would probably commit a felony if he got in a room with counterfeiter. And Kenny. We have an upcoming podcast with a with a admitted counterfeiter who was caught. 1:10:31 Yeah, it's gonna be a juicy one. Yeah, it you know, when when we were having that conversation with press in that interview that we had with him just kept coming into my mind, you know, of like, of all the things that we saw in the secondary market on counterfeiting. Where do you think we are when it comes to counterfeiting? Is the secondary market going away help it or does it hurt it? I personally think it might hurt the efforts to stop 1:11:00 counterfeiting because there's a pretty good little police force out there. And that's what I think most people don't understand. If you're not deep into the bourbon world as we are that there are pockets of people that this is what they spend their time and their hobby doing is actually chasing counterfeits. Now they're no part of any legal entity or anything like that, like, that's what they do. They love to be able to shop around on eBay, because if you can go on eBay, you'll see empty bottles of Pappy Van Winkle that you can buy. nobody's buying bottles for $50 and make lamps out of alum sorry, right. They're not doing that right there. They're going away with a purpose. And so what you can do is they spend the time tracking those serial numbers and seeing where they end up and then they go and basically flame those people that end up ektron to sell them at some point, right? And they try to trace it back and figure out exactly where the route actually came from. So there is a there's already a good self policing community that's already with inside of bourbon today. So Julian after the seminar was over, he pulled out a pot big friggin pocket knife. 1:12:00 onstage and started cutting the labels. He's like, this is how we prevent it. I was like, How the hell did you get that through security? 1:12:08 But yeah, so I think I think this is a, this is going to influence our, our kind of our little community, you know, quite a bit. And for them to come out publicly that they helped shut it down was really something another thing that was a first this this was the first public appearance, Marianne eaves, since she had left castle and key. Did any anybody catch her talk to her while she was on stage? I got to talk to her back behind her a little bit. It seems like everything's going great. She's got an upcoming TED Talk, which is amazing, right? I mean, I think being able to have that honor is is it's an incredible experience and, you know, happy for her and be able to do that. And, you know, I think we're all excited to kind of just see what happens next. And she's had some great experience since she left 1:13:00 With with rum and tequila and traveling around and and I think we'll see here in a lot of different places in the future. And of course she's on a round table alarm so we're always rooting for Marianne. So I got a question for you all. So we got we got some people out here and you know, we were actually there was when we had the Van Winkle thing out there, there was the we sample 15 year, right? It was amazing opportunity, amazing experience now, not everybody's gonna be able to get that opportunity, right. So let's go ahead and everybody can kind of give a if you can't get Pappy, what's the next best bourbon that you can drink? There's always those articles that come out and they say, here's here's, here's five Bourbons better than Pappy or real talking accessible Bourbons. Yes, let's do that for the crowd. And for people who have been think that they want to try it, but they might want some some steps, they'll be able to like get down that path. So it's only in six markets. So maybe that doesn't make it completely accessible but for those of you who are here from out of state 1:14:00 Kentucky is one of the markets. Four roses has a new, small batch select is what they call it 204 proof, it's about $50. It's I think it's my top new bourbon of the year, you should be able to find it. And again, the six markets, it competes with some really tough Bourbons. My, maybe one of my second favorites is old forester 1920, which is a higher proof, then than that. So you you really got to go to which profile you prefer, but if you haven't had the small batch select yet, that's what I'd go for. Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's pretty tough comparison because when we're talking about weighted Bourbons with a lot of age on it, there's just not much on the market that compares or is anywhere near available. But what I would suggest is wilderness trail actually has a weeded bourbon that they're releasing. And it's, you know, obviously on the age there's, it's not even close because I think they're, they're bottling around for four to five years, but 1:15:00 We were there the other day and really great product. So if you need a weighted bourbon and looking for something a little higher proof, I'd say give wilderness trail a try. I think you also because you made poor man's Pappy famous. So you got to talk about Really? What is it make or what what are the components of Forman's, Pappy and then and can you even find those components? I know that's the thing you can't even make a ninja comes in Yeah, yeah so so this was I wrote a blog post probably I think it's around 2013 about the poor man's Pappy I don't know if I came up with the actual name I'm pretty sure I did but I definitely stole the blend from somebody else and put my own name on it but it's just 60 part or 60% well or 12 I what we just talked about counterfeiting 1:15:47 know so it's a it's a blend of 60% well or 12 and 40% well or antique and you know, you get somewhere around that 10 year mark and around the hundred and seven proof or excuse me 1:16:00 Hunger proof, whatever it is, I need to look at the article but so then 1:16:06 yeah, I tried to take things and 1:16:09 get it it's really hard to remember your own writing. So it is yeah. So take it a step earlier is I put a blind tasting together of the, you know a fresh Pappy or, you know fake Pappy. So and then you know well or 12 real Pappy and then version that I put in a Blendtec and blend it up. And every single time I've done this, the blended bourbon like literal blended bourbon has won the blind taste in so I don't know what it is the aeration, whatever it is, you know, also stole that from a master taster saying yes, it talked about what does aeration do to it because I it was funny because we had a blind taste off. And I think you sent us 10 samples, and we were like, Damn, this is really good. And then you pulled it out and it was literally like from a ninja blender. 1:17:00 bourbon in it. So if you want a 4000 gallon ninja blender, we need that. Yeah, so some of my favorite barrels in the warehouse are actually the lowest yield barrels because they've had so much headspace so much air space in there. And there are some arguments out there that once you've gone through the distillation process, your liquid in and of itself has been oxidized to the point that it could ever be oxidized after going through all of the industrial process. Once you get into the barrel, though, what they're not taking into consideration is the extraction of different compounds from that actual wood and creating new compounds that can then also the oxidized so I love the low yield barrels if I could just mingle all the low yield barrels together into a blend which may or may not be coming Monday, exactly what's going on. So the same way that you would decant a really heavy tannic red wine to soften out that tannin. The exact same thing that's going on when you're going through a blender at home with your By the way, I just want to I want to say something about Jackie she's a champion for the people wouldn't 1:18:00 Whiskey my pic for like one of the one of the every it's not a bourbon it's a rides the old forced to ride I'm just in love with the old forced to ride right now and I would buy that I do I buy cases regularly unfortunately. 1:18:15 And horrible problem. I have an old horse arrived problem. But one of the things that's really cool about that rye whiskey is it's $23 and her management wanted to actually make it be like double or triple the price right? And she bought for it to be $23 like she like intimidated presidents and vice presidents of brown Forman to keep it at $23 not that scary 1:18:44 now but I think it's very, isn't that awesome? The mafioso or the mafia? have voted for 1:18:51 Jackie O straight cut, you know it will not. 1:18:56 I know I know. But I think it's very important for us to stand strong. 1:19:00 is a brand that has always long been known as the sort of like, really great quality product but doesn't have to be a fuss about it. So old forester is known as like one of the best things for your buck, and we need to stay consistent with that, regardless of what the trends are doing. So it's locals house bourbon for those who aren't around here, that's what we call it. Yeah, but thank you for keeping it at 23 bucks. Jordan, I don't think you got a chance to say not because Jackie's here but you know, we get that question a lot from a lot of people and in terms of just available Bourbons, we often recommend 1920 it's, you know, it's about 60 bucks give or take right right around there and you can usually find in the stores and people just tend to love it. So it's one that you know, we tend to stock up on and breaking bourbon and introduce a lot of people to and you know, it's great, but really what we always tell people to is happy is going to be what you make up happy, right? So if you have a bourbon that you absolutely love, just stick with it. There's nothing wrong with that by what you love, drink what you love and, and don't let anyone else tell you what's going to be back to the damn brand. Change it like lower the age statement or 1:20:00 You know use a lesser quality barrels for something else. Oh god that pisses me off. 1:20:07 When they do that, I know we could have a whole grind your gears 1:20:11 never getting 1:20:14 any Coleman and this is grind your gears. Absolutely. So I'll kind of give my my take on that as well because you know, I think we had talked about some weeded Bourbons and stuff like that. I'm a big fan of the maker's 46 private select program, the fact that there are 1001 different combinations of what's out there, meaning that you can go to a lot of different stores, you can sample a lot of different ones. And they have a lot of different varying profiles. The one that Larry had brought in here yesterday and and I think most of us can say that today it is probably the only bourbon that's out there that can probably come close that tasting. dusty ish, right? So anybody that's unfamiliar, dusty, it's, you know, 70s 80s it's got a tax stamp on it. Nobody knows why it has this kind of flavor profile to it. 1:21:00 hates it we've been down this road before most of us up here enjoy it. However I think that the maker's 46 private select program gives any any consumer out there the opportunity to try something in a we did Nashville but have a lot of varying differences because they have all the different flavoring states and as a great pic. And unfortunately we're coming to the to the end of our 1:21:22 round table. Here we go. 1:21:25 Well, okay, okay, but you have to pick outside of old forester going to 1:21:32 catch it is. So in fairness, I drink the least of the 1920 because I drink barrel strength for a job on such a regular basis that I got to be kind of my liver. However, the 1920 1:21:44 No, it is what 1:21:49 it is. 1:21:52 But the 1920 is a very unique higher proof expression in that it actually holds balance as you dilute through it. So even if you're not 100 1:22:00 drinker, you can adjust it accordingly to where you want it to taste best that there's a lot of high proof whiskeys on the market that once you start watering it back they fall apart or defects starts to come. So tuition Yes, a lot of distillers will hide subpar barrels like you were saying they start putting someone like that just throw it in there and in some of these high proof blends because you cannot discern defects at high alcohol concentration. Now you have to pick something outside old forester 1:22:26 got to do it. 1:22:28 I wanted the single barrel pick from four roses It was a barrel strength single barrel pick it was with doc rose before I took this job and it had the best cordial cherry amazing flavor profile. It was exquisite of super super low proof it was tucked away in a nice cool spot. It's the Hunter S Thompson single barrel if you guys go into the docks and and try one but I have a case of it at home is it laced with LSD? No. Be cooler if it was. So we've got to start getting ready for 1:23:00 The next panel but as we do that let's go ahead and tell everybody where to find you like social media I'll start first so bourbon pursuit so you can find us We are a weekly podcast you can download open up your your phone open up the your podcasting app type in the word bourbon will probably be up there in the top results. Go ahead and subscribe. It's a weekly release and we have Tuesdays we come out of the 62nd was review as well. We talked about everything from having people like Jackie on the shows, multiple time alumni we've had master distillers talk about bourbon culture such as topics like today, and most of these guys are always regulars on it too. So it's always fantastic. So Jordan from breaking bourbon, you can find us at breaking bourbon or breaking bourbon. com We are the leading resource for whiskey reviews and bottle release calendars. Yeah, I'm Blake from bourbon or that's BOURBONR. I got made fun of last night by Lauren who has to edit this because of how I spell out the name every time. So I want to throw that out there but yeah, Facebook 1:24:00 Twitter Instagram just look for bourbon or 1:24:04 and I'm Brian with sip and corn you can find me that blog name is sip and corn and also twitter facebook instagram and also you search for bourbon justice calm and you'll go to my website as well bourbon justice 1:24:19 so I'm the curator of the festival and editor in chief of bourbon plus magazine and proud co co hosts on bourbon pursuit. But this is a to me this is the future of like whiskey media. I invited the everyone up here because I appreciate what they're doing to continue the whiskey education which is often lacking and so I I've been trying to use bourbon and beyond as a way to to help some some some great minds and whiskey share their knowledge what how do you find me? Well, darling, you can find me and seeing this stage for the rest of the day. Other than that pop down ZO force or distillery some 1:25:00 I'm there sometimes I'm I don't know somewhere else. But you can find me on Instagram at at Jackie's I can and peek into my personal like and like hiking. Hey, you know, I cannot believe I Oh, you know I just give you it's me I was very rude. Okay, you're gonna get sick of hearing from me by the end of the day. Jackie's the best everybody. Thank you all so much for coming. Have a wonderful day. Cheers everyone. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
26 Sep 2019
023 - Carol Perry, Stitzel-Weller's Jack of all Tradesman
Carol Perry, or just Perry, is a legend in his own right. Perry has worked at the Stitzel-Weller distillery in Shively for 45 years. He has held about every job you could possibly have and is currently working security and head greeter for the Bulleit Frontier Experience. - Give us an idea of what you have been doing here for the past 45 years - Talk about what life is like working at the warehouse - Why did they have windows open only during the day? - What other kinds of experiences did you gather from working at warehouse? - Drinking your own product on the job probably wasn’t uncommon back then - How automated were the processes back then? - What do you mean by dumping the glass? - Did you ever have any interactions with the Van Winkle family? - Wasn’t there a break room incident with Julian? - What were you doing when the distillery closed its doors? - Any security incidents in your time? - You’ve seen the ups and downs, is this the craziest time you’ve ever seen? - Is there a best memory that sticks out for you during this time?
10 Sep 2015
094 - Bourbon Truth, the infamous blogger and twitter persona who tells it like it is
Bourbon Truth, the infamous blogger and twitter persona known as Lloyd Christmas, gives a Bourbon Pursuit exclusive where no one is safe. He tells it like it is and let's you know not everything smells like roses. What made you start blogging? (spoiler alert, he has bone to pick with the Van Winkles) Let’s talk about distilleries and their non-sense tactics. Which ones stand out the most and why? Your latest blog post talked about the issues behind private barrel picks. Let’s talk because people are moving to these as the limited edition market is now flooded with people. Lets talk about marketing over the value of the bottles. What do you see consumers continually falling for? Distillers are continually pushing the envelope of cost. Bottles are increasing in price and even limited editions that were once $50 are now $350 at retail. These were always 15 year bourbons. What’s the long-term effect? Should a person that never drank Bourbon before 2017 take the precious bottles from those drinking it for 5 or 10 years? Are they worthy? Is there a problem with people “collecting” bourbon? Does Craft Whiskey stand a chance?
14 Apr 2017
044 - Fred Noe, Master Distiller at Jim Beam
Fred Noe, Global Ambassador and Master Distiller at Jim Beam, talks about the history of Jim Beam, his celebrity encounters and the new Booker’s Rye release. This episode is brought to you by the Kentucky Bourbon Affair that will be taking place in Louisville and Kentucky Bourbon Trail Distilleries June 14-19th. Packed with exclusive content, rare tastings, special bottlings, amazing food, and for the first time a Whiskey Live show—the Kentucky Bourbon Affair is the ultimate fantasy camp for Bourbon lovers. For more information and tickets, visit www.kybourbonaffair.com. You were born into this. Talk about your child hood and some Beam history What are some things your dad taught you about this business and made you appreciate what you do today? Your role is not only a master distiller but also a brand ambassador, do you ever sleep? What’s the short list of some of your favorite places you’ve been? What do you think has made Jim Beam grow to the #1 product in the world? You've probably done a lot since then, best and worst jobs of working at the distillery? The latest Beam ads feature Mila Kunis. Talk about your interactions with Mila. A question from one of our listeners, what did you think of Mila when she blew up one of the rick houses in the latest ad? What’s the current state of Jim Beam today? As more engineering programs expand and more universities offer programs. Do you think the future of distilling is more science than art? There's a lot of different bourbons under your portfolio, who are some of your right hand people to make sure every brand stays consistent? Another question from one of our listeners, what is the inspiration behind the Signature Craft series? Talk about Booker’s Rye that will be hitting the shelves soon. If you have to start a journey for drinking Jim Beam bourbons to get to the point where you drinking Booker’s neat, where do you start? Lastly, we need to get the Kentucky Chew.
15 Apr 2016
165 - It's Turkey Time with David Jennings of RareBird101
Is he the biggest Wild Turkey super fan out there? Without a doubt. David Jennings goes by the alter ego RareBird101. In this episode we explore his obsession with older dusty Wild Turkey and even some of the newest Russell's Reserve offerings. We also spend some time speculating on our theories on what has changed over the years and if Wild Turkey is headed in the right direction with premium offerings. Sponsors: Get upfront and honest life insurance quotes in less than 10 minutes with an online application from Ethos. Buy your tickets to the Speed Museum’s Art of Bourbon hosted by Fred Minnick Bourbon and Beyond Music Festival takes place in Louisville, KY on Sept 22nd and 23rd. Buy tickets and see the bourbon workshops we will be moderating. Show Notes: Before we dive right in, what's your bourbon story? What got you into Wild Turkey? What keeps you interested in Wild Turkey? Talk about your blog for a minute and what you do at Rarebird101 Think about some of those reviews you’ve done, because I’ve seen some real turkey unicorns in there from tradition to split labels to Christmas Rye. Do you have any standout favorites? What is it about cheesy gold foil? Jimmy says nothing has changed. But Be honest, do you think dusty Wild Turkey is better than today? Since you’ve tasted almost everything in the turkey lineup, any thoughts on recreating that dusty flavor profile? We posted on Instagram a while back about waiting in line for a Weller107 store pick because people like us are dumb. You were playing the angle that if everyone focused their attention on Russell's Reserve picks you wouldn’t have to stand in line. I know you have an article on the 10 reasons why you should be buying Russell's Reserve picks, what are some of those favorite reasons of yours? How many different Russell's Reserve picks do you have? It seems that Wild Turkey limited releases don’t get many accolades. From Diamond to Master’s Keep. What’s you honest opinion? Do you feel they don’t deserve the high dollar or do you? Did you sleep on Russell's Reserve 1998 like I did? When are you getting your chance to meet Matt McConaughey? Support RareBird101 on Patreon
6 Sep 2018
219 - Limited Edition Bourbon vs Single Barrel Picks with Mikey Conrad
Hunting for rare bourbon is hard these days so many people have gravitated to single barrel selections as a way to combat it in the hopes of getting a stellar bourbon that is less expensive and more appealing. On this episode, we blind taste our way through a series of five comparisons where we try to see if a single barrel store pick can compete with past limited editions. We see if Weller CYPB, Booker’s Rye, 2016 Four Roses Single Barrel, and Elijah Craig 18 are worth the price. We also talk about flavors we prefer over others and how to create your own small batch limited edition bourbon as well. If you’ve done something like this before, drop us a comment with your results. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/pursuespirits. Barrell Craft Spirits is always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. The 2019 Kentucky’s Edge Bourbon Conference & Festival pairs all things Kentucky with bourbon. It takes place October 4th & 5th at venues throughout Covington and Newport, Kentucky. Find out more at KentuckysEdge.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the return of bourbon. Is it worth waiting in line or camping out for bourbon? Tasting store picks vs. limited releases. Weller CYPB vs Weller 107 pick by Cork N Bottle Booker’s Rye vs Knob Creek Rye by Westport Whiskey and Wine 2016 Four Roses Limited Edition Single Barrel OESK vs North Atlanta Bourbon Society OESK Elijah Craig 18yr vs Elijah Craig Loch n Key Wild Turkey 17yr Decades vs Russell's Reserve by Cork N Bottle How many barrel picks have you been on? Is there something on the flavor wheel that you don't like to get out of a bourbon? Have you tried to create your own small batch before? 0:00 Hey everybody. If you have a bachelor's degree and live anywhere in the United States, there's now a way for you to take your bourbon education to the next level. The distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville is an online program that can be completed in as little as 15 weeks and will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry. It's offered by the AA CSP accredited college of business. And this certificate was developed in partnership with industry experts to be one of a kind and it's going to prepare you for your next adventure. Learn more about this online program at U of l.me. Slash pursue spirits 0:37 dry oak or the sweet Oh, I'm more of a circuit. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, that's what that's my nickname. So they call me Coleman sweet. Oh 0:56 what's up everybody? It is Episode 219 of 1:00 bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny, and we don't have a whole lot of news but it's festival season. And for bourbon pursuit, we are fortunate that we are going to be at some of the most prestigious ones around. We had a blast last weekend at hometown rising and now we are headed into bourbon and beyond weekend, the whole bourbon pursuit team is going to be there. And we have different sessions throughout the entire weekend. So make sure you go and check out the schedule so you can be there. bourbon and beyond.com. Of course Fred's gonna be there and he's scattered everywhere. But Ryan kicks things off on Friday at 1230 with beer drinkers bourbon, and I have the final session on Friday at six o'clock pm called what is a master distiller. On Saturday, I kick off at 1225 with barrel finished versus traditional bourbon. And we're going to be joined on stage by all the personalities that you've heard on the podcast before. So we would love to see you all there and please come say hi to us. There's always going to be bourbon pursuit t shirts. 2:00 Hats available at the Fred MC merchant so make sure you take a second and stop by their last week mark 65 years as Jimmy Russell being an active master distiller and now he is considered the longest tenured master distiller around Happy Anniversary Jimmy from the whole bourbon pursuit team. Maker's Mark is unveiling its first ever limited release bourbon that won't require a special trip to Loreto Maker's Mark wood finishing series 2019 new release, RC six will be available nationwide this fall. It marks the first of many upcoming whiskeys in the wood finishing series. As Maker's Mark plans to release a new one for a limited time nationwide each year. You probably already know about maker's 46 and the private barrel selection program that utilizes flavoring staves. This release was finished and secondary barrels containing 10 wouldn't staves dubbed RC six the staves made from Virgin America. 3:00 Or season for a year and a half and then baked in a convection oven. Before being introduced to the cast drink bourbon, Maker's Mark made 255 barrels, it's bottled at 108.2 proof. And you'll be able to find it nationwide in October with an MSRP of around $60. Not only is it festival season, but it's also release season. And release season means all the crazies come out. And for today's podcast, we look at really what that means because they're going to be bourbon lotteries that happen around the nation folks are camping out in parking lots. And there's a lot of hate around flippers and liquor store owners that are trying to get the most money out of these secondary values for these allocated Bourbons. So our goal in this episode was to see if we can help folks out there not feel the fo mo or the fear of missing out. We did our best to blindly set up samples of past limited edition Bourbons and compare them to single barrel private pics. The results are interesting, but the best part about this is that you can do this 3:59 At home, find a group of friends and get together and have a blind taste off and use some limited edition Bourbons versus some single barrels out there. Heck, if your taste buds prefer stag Junior over Big Boy George t stag, you're going to save yourself a lot of headache and money in the process. But you can do this as well for things like ego or 17 versus just standard single Eagle rare store pics. And there's a lot of them that spread the whole gamut of a lot of the big distilleries are out there. And if you ever get around to doing something like this, we would love to hear your results. Drop us a line on our Facebook page or mentioned us in your Instagram or your Twitter posts. All right, it's time to dive into the good stuff. Let's hear from Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. Hi, Joe from barrell bourbon here. We're always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Find out more at barrell bourbon.com. 4:53 I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char want to take you back in time, a time and bourbon will 5:00 wasn't cool when bourbon wasn't selling when Julian Van Winkle had to trade bottles of 23 year old Pappy, just to get a magazine advertisement. I'm talking about the 1990s. In the 1990s there was a very important event that happened that would shape the bourbon economy for the next 20 or 30 years. And that is the Japanese market crashed. You see up until that point the Japanese market was the number one thing kind of keeping bourbon alive. You had brands being specifically developed for the Japanese such as Blanton's Booker's know as mill the entire small batch collection essentially anything that was a an ultra premium of that time was being sent to Japan because the Japanese absolutely loved and continue to love bourbon. When the market crashed. You saw how the company's decided to deal with it. You had some 6:00 Who decided to put their efforts on domestic sales. So heaven Hill basically shifted their efforts to focus on the southeast and throughout the United States. Jim Beam really tried to double down and like places like New York and Chicago and San Francisco, they had really concentrated programs there and united distillers, now the CEO decided to sell. Up until that moment, they had actually been making more of their weeded bourbon to sell to Japan under the Rebel Yell label to compete with jack daniels. They had this excess of weeded bourbon and they decided to sell it and they also decided to sell their brands. They sold Rebel Yell eventually to the company that is now Lux go. They sold it old Fitzgerald to heaven Hill, and they sold Weller the Weller brand and the stocks and the archives to SAS racks. 7:00 Those are three companies who really wanted the bourbon and they really wanted to promote it. And as we all know, that particular whiskey was quite good and made an impression on anybody who ever tasted it. And I often wonder what would have happened if united distillers decided not to sell their whiskey and their labels to three companies who really did care about promoting bourbon? I've thought about that a lot. And I've come to the conclusion that I don't think bourbon would have ever has been as hot as it is today. The reason why united distillers has always been a scotch centric company and they've never put much effort into American whiskey. The exception being bullet and you know, George decal is kind of like barely, barely gets any budget, you know, at least they're now they're, they're paying attention to it, but that particular company has never really put a whole lot of focus on 8:00 American whiskey. So I look back on that time today as we celebrate bourbon Heritage Month. And we enjoy this incredible growth and all the fandom that we have in bourbon. I look back to the 1990s as the people who truly made the right decisions that got us to where we are today. 8:22 And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you want to learn more about the history of bourbon, check out my book bourbon, the rise fall and rebirth of an American whiskey. Until next week. Cheers 8:37 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny and Ryan here in our secondary recording studios in my basement if you're watching the video you you may notice the background it looks familiar. And we have a new guest on today and I'm sure usually when people come here they're always like, I can't wait to see Kenny's basement through all his bottles, bottles, bottles. I like upstairs studio better. We got more room. 9:00 On the dining room table, you were a little tight down here, but we'll make it work. So you can see the bottles. Yeah, so when I was planning the basement I never really planned this to be like a recording space. But it kind of turned out that well now you have lights and the whole shebang. You know, it's like, real deal. We'll make it work. We'll make it work in the cramped space. It'll, that's how to happen. But, you know, today, today's topic really came as it was a good suggestion by our guests. Because when we think about the significance and what it really takes to go in chase after unicorns and limited edition releases, it's becoming almost it's been it's difficult. Yeah, it's very, very difficult. It's either your, I don't even do it. I just gave up on it. Like two or three years ago. It's like no, not camping. Yeah, you're either camping or you're paying secondary prices, or, you know, CP and other people are kind of like, Oh, yeah, well, I've got a great relationship with the store manager. I buy everything there. And and that's great. But sometimes you also need to take a step back and think like, Okay, well, I 10:00 If I just keep buying a bottle of bourbon every two weeks, and I keep buying a 12 pack of beer odds are I'm probably spending almost two months as well and I could just bought off a secondary and in my case my store relationship it caused me a probably about five to $600 in tickets to like concerts and football games and all that stuff per year so I need to add that tax on to my math whenever I'm like I'm getting these a cost Yeah, maybe not. Yeah, I was like that big man. We've a lot be actually cost you more than the second Yeah. No doubt. That's definitely how it happens. But So with that, let's go and introduce our guest today. So today we have Mikey Conrad Mikey, welcome to the show. Welcome. Glad to be here. Yes. beautiful, magnificent basement. Yeah. See, we like to hear that it's all about the ambience. Right. That's the town. So Mikey, you know, first off, thank you for coming up with this idea because this is this is great because we get to kind of look at more of the bourbon culture side of things here. We get to look at really what does it take to look at a 11:00 Very good store, pick somebody that is from a Baroque barrel selection group, or whether they're stores that are very well known for it, versus chasing after those limited releases, which sometimes they're pretty much the same exact thing as those barrel selections just either aged longer or selected by the master distiller for various reasons, something like that. So kind of what was your your reasoning behind bringing an idea like this? Yeah, I mean that the main reason is kind of already been hinted at, like, it just got really almost ridiculous to camp to spend time, energy effort, money into chasing things that you weren't always sure if they were going to pan out to be what you think they're going to be because of everyone else telling you that you got to get this bottle. It looks pretty, you know, whatever it may be. And so you know, you start to take store pics or single barrel pics from clubs or stores or bars and you're like man says really 12:00 Good, this tastes better than you know the special release that came out. And so it really is just come to a simple like reality that time is something you don't get back. And so for a guy who's married, you know has three daughters. I'm like, Man Am I am I just spend too much time trying to always chasing bourbon. Yeah, man. I mean, come on. So Miss three genetics and glasses of the past. 12:25 I mean, that's where some of the really practical I mean, thought came into play as like, really, like, how much time should I be spending and it's like, man, there's access to so many great stores in this area alone, Kentucky, Indiana, like man, there's gotta be some a better way. So yeah, that's what and Ryan always talks about opportunity costs. Being when you say yes to something you're saying no to something else. Yeah, you definitely always gotta think of the opportunity costs. It's that and then it's also you know, in the value of your time, you know, Ryan being an entrepreneur and owning a few businesses. He he has this sort of level. 13:00 Thinking, because I go back and I think of like my 2014 days of camping in front of liquor barn and being like one of the first three people there and coming away with a 23 at the end of the day. Yeah, sure. It was fun. They were good times. And now if I think about it, like what I ever do that again, like, is my time more valuable than actually waiting in line? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you gotta look at like your salary or what your earning potential is like as someone and and you're like, all right, I just invested nine hours to get this bottle. And it's, you know, 1300 1500 bucks, you're like, wait a minute, I could have just done my regular job and you know, done a lot better. But you know, but it's also fun to you got it. You can't discount that there's something in about going to the store going out for the hunt, hanging out with people to you know, get those bottles so that you can't totally just make it a numbers thing, but it's a Yeah, yeah. And nine hours is probably on the short end of the stick. Yeah, exactly. So it's even lower cut, you know, or even bigger opportunity costs. So, so I'm going to talk you know, we're going to talk a little more about these topics as we go but one of the 14:00 things that we're doing today is we are going to be kind of going into a double blind here. And this is going to be store pics versus limited releases. And these are store pics that I've had access to that I've purchased as well as limited editions that I purchased. And honestly, I told my wife I said, Let's set these up. We don't want to know if this is an Elijah Craig pairing. If this is a four roses pairing, I don't really know what it is. She really want to expose us. Oh, I mean, this is gonna make us look real bad. Yeah, okay. So so we're going to not not only know what the brand name, the mash bill, whatever it is, but then inside of that we don't know which one either one or two is the limited edition or is the store pick? Yeah, so we're going to go through and we're going to start off with our first one here. We were going through so we always know number one is on our left and number two is on our right. So we've got a lined up. So let's go ahead and kind of start 15:00 The process of nosing through these and figuring out I know what it is. Oh yeah, just by that. You're so fast, huh? Think it's a well or one of seven. You think you're going straight with the leader off the bat, huh? So I actually I have no idea I can I that was the first thing in my peripheral vision. 15:22 So I'll give you some ideas of what we have up line today. So we've got on the store pick side we've got a Russell's reserve from cork and bottle. We've got a knob Creek pick that was done to knob Creek right pick that was done by Westport whiskey and wine. We've got a nine year nine month OESK that was done by the North Atlanta bourbon society, which I chose that one because we're pairing that against a Brent face bottle which was the 20 1614 year old SK in addition to that, you know, we already said we got a well or 107 which is also cork and bottle pick versus a Weller 16:00 After perfect bourbon, which was a sample sent by Matt q six So Matt thank you so much for sending that along and hopefully we don't disappoint you here or hopefully hopefully we can yeah yeah 16:12 I really enjoyed the nose on this one I wasn't in love with the taste or finish or anything about it Mona maybe it's just cuz my first one 16:22 I'm kind of with you on that one. The nose is there but what taste might be a little weird Yeah, I mean we all profile on any of those on so they're trying to register in my head so this is also kind of the the issue with some store pics too is that a lot of people and a lot of stores? They will they always go and they want to find something unique. Yep. And so they try to find that that off profile one and so that could be the one here that is that is the off profile side of things about you Mikey need to have a guests on me and my guess is going to be way off. That's okay. It's got my brain. Ivan land I totally just glanced over. 17:01 But there is a big drop off on the back end of this thing. Yeah. The only thing I noticed up front when I first knows it was like some cherries and always get cherry out of like Weller's. But 17:13 that's the only reason why I said that. 17:16 I don't know. Wow, this is actually pretty hard if I just tasted the second one. 17:22 The taste is a lot better than the SEC. Oh, yeah. The second one's the first one. I'm going to go back to it because it was a little, like musty gonna, like funky? I don't know. Yeah, a little bit. I mean, it kind of had that weird finish to it, but I'm like some like I said, that's that's one of those things where you know, you go into a store and that's what they try to do they try to differentiate it by having some unique pick like that. They taste totally different, which is crazy, like did Laurin do these right? I hope 17:52 I can't be 100% on that one. But I hope so. 17:57 Mikey, how many barrel pics Have you been on? I know you came with 18:00 On one. Yeah, I think, right around five, and maybe, maybe one or two more, but at least five. Yeah. Have you found to find those like off profile ones? Have you found them before, I have felt small profile ones. And my brains always go in toward the masses. Unless there happens to be a large group of folks that just wants something really off profile. But if that's off profile can be off putting to someone that has an expectation of something that they want to, they want to sip or drink that's, that's within their, you know, their taste, right? And so we even at a place like New riff, like we, we got down to our two, we did them blind, and one was just significantly different. And my thinking was, man, guys, if we pick this one, people are going to think we're crazy. Yeah, they're not going to want to ever again, right, but the other one was just it was great, had a great nose, super sweet on the front, and this long lasting kind of sweet oak. And so we chose that one. So 19:00 But usually when that barrel picks I'm pretty simple like I have this very like Check. Check. Yes, yeah. Minus or check plus and yeah, if the nose on something is really weak I have a hard time putting it into the the check plus category but 19:15 I do like the nose on a second one a lot better than the first there's Yeah, like everything about the second one better. So I'm not entirely sure what it is. Yeah, I'm gonna put my vote for two on this one. I agree as well. But I mean, we've had so Ryan lands he's been on the show before he sent us a sample. A blind sample once Brian if you remember that. Yep. And we were we were dumbfounded by it. We were going through because we were like, is this a ride? Like it's got this minty flavor. It's like, totally, that means we couldn't pin it down. And then he was like, No, just a nine year Buffalo Trace. 19:50 Like, yeah, we're like, I didn't expect that when we were thinking I was like, some will have families day, like eight years or something from MTV, you know? But it was 20:00 Buffalo Trace Oh yeah, it was a crazy one. So I think I got my vote in number two Yankee what's your vote in? Yeah number two hands down all right all right so i think you won't do the reveal I'm already on the guess oh how about just trade them off you guys can you guys can both do reveals about that so you're real all right Mikey go ahead all right I'll reveal all right so here we go here we go number a number a number 20:27 oh boy sorry guys a one number one is Weller craft your perfect bourbon OC at least now I new 20:39 stuff right 20:41 the craft your own bourbon you whoever crafted it did not 20:46 you screwed up 20:49 yeah, that's I mean that kind of goes to show you right i mean we're out of the gate we already just said that doesn't work yeah, I mean and go me wrong like store pick one oh sevens like they trade upwards of 21:00 Like $100 now, but the crappy perfect bourbon i think is somewhere around 300 400. So you know, yeah, I mean, it was a limited release. It came in a fancy white label, but I'm just like, thrilled. I got it right on the nose. I was like, you should just leave now. Yeah, I'm done. See? 21:19 My drop word done? Well, let's uh, let's go ahead and refresh or reset here and he does dump dump bug it Here we go. Here's a here's a dump glass that you can use. Just go ahead and do that. All right. Have you done a 107 pic? I have not me either. 21:35 on the list though, I had the opportunity to do it. Which you know the Yeah, I mean, the honest weird thing about doing Yeah, we're going to have a just a big ol Weller mix mix, right here. So we'll just do that. We'll save that one for later. Is it pretty similar to like doing a Buffalo Trace where you know, you get it's 46 barrels and it's very similar. I don't need that here. So one 22:00 So when you do the when you do the well everyone oh seven pick. I mean, it's there's literally no difference than what you were doing with a Buffalo Trace or anything like that. 22:09 Except you have you have this high anticipation going into it. Yeah. Right because you're like, we did it like we're here like we're getting the Mecca. Yeah. I mean, you think like, it's going to be like crazy and like off the wall. Like you're super excited for it like you get it takes more than a little Yeah. You got barely a taste there. 22:30 And then so and so we're going to use it. So like I said, you go in like super, super amped for it. However, 22:38 when we did ours, I was actually sitting there with a few of the guys and I'm kind of like, it might be like one of the few times in my life where you're like, like so crazy going into it. That you say 22:53 can we get some new barrels? Because life's all about expectation? Nothing. No, yeah, nothing was like you 23:00 We're over the moon about any of them. I mean, so it was just kind of like Well, I guess we'll just choose one of these. Yeah, I mean, they were also kind of doing us a favor of giving this group that I'm in a 107 pick at the story behind it was this is all part of the the bourbon cartel as we've had on the show before doing a 1792 foolproof pick. And we are the team that was there chose the barrel and come to find out that barrel was already pre sold. And everybody had already left like guys came in from California for this all this other kind of stuff. And they were like, Oh, I'm so sorry. What can we do? What can we make it up for you? I don't know exactly how you want no seven pick and they're like, okay, let's make it happen. Yeah. And I guess when that happens, you might get the the last barrels all the rejects right into the year. Yeah, it's like when Eddie Russell was that the Russell's pig and they're like, well, operations is on air. Nevermind. 23:59 So we got 24:00 UV here. So with BO buddy. Oh, here we go again. So I feel like this is filling 24:10 or something logic correct maybe 24:13 behind you might be, you might have he's got this he's got his senses dialed in every night. Every night he goes home and just practice I actually do now ever since we've done pursuit series like I've kind of like trying to not take it seriously but really 24:30 put some effort into it. I can train my nose and palate. I don't know. I mean, it's I don't know I enjoy it and you know, so I've really, I'll probably with on this one so I don't hide me up too much. 24:44 But I just know it's like an alleged occurred to me up the gate. All right. I can tell you after the taste. I don't think it's Elijah Craig. Oh. 24:52 I think it's a rye. Oh, yeah. Because I had one Rive blind set in here. Maybe it's like a 25:00 bourbon and then you get four roses and some of the different recipes you get some of like a minty profile to it as well so yeah there's this earthy 25:10 earth you bite at the end 25:13 yeah it's definitely like you said get the ride and it's really standing out 25:20 we are more like a kind of peanut II nutty kind of, well, one of the things that threw in here I said there was a ride blind so there's a problem is the rods that you did are like gateway rods. Yeah, well, I know I don't know if their gateway rise because of the ride that I did. I did. I did a knob Creek Westport whiskey and what it was for what sports really known for a lot of good store pics. Chris has been on the show before from there. But I said what's a good limited edition to pair this up with and there's not I ok. I tried to be a smart consumer so I didn't go out and buy like the knob Creek hundred and 30th or whatever it was. I came in the box. That was like 26:00 150 bucks, but I had these. These had a bottle of knob or a Booker's rye sitting around. And so I said, well mean it's still Jim Beam at the end of the day. 26:12 Both of them like art super dry, heavy on the taste. So let's see if we can see if we can figure it out and blind. Hmm. I'm worried. Yeah, she's like, 26:25 I'll tell you a story because Booker's right, I bought a few bottles of them. When I told myself I said, You know what, like, I have a lot of money sunk into these things because they came out at 303 50 retail. And I said, I said maybe when it hits 1000 What's the perfect boogers raw? Is it cash flow? Its cash. Yeah, I mean, I think it's like around 100 and hundred and 10 hundred and 20. Some most most of the Booker's around 120 proof. So yeah, you could probably expect that now. I'm also it just seems like there's a huge difference in the 27:00 First and second one. I don't know. Maybe it's just me. Yeah, you might be right. I'm getting more ethanol knows on this first one. 27:08 But which one do you enjoy more? And the first one that I'll call like really 27:13 overpowers kind of everything for me there obviously, now that you said there's a lot more ethanol on the nose, 27:20 like on the nose and the palate and just really just takes over well and you know, also I can't be 100% of these are rise or not So, but the second one is so light, 27:34 and gullible. Is that word gullible? Not even close now, or do you think this could be I don't love either one of them, but I like the second one better than the first like now that I'm tasting it. I don't know if it is awry. I don't think it's a wrong at this. This might be the difference in the four roses. Yeah, because it could be the Brent face 14 year OESK versus the 27:57 the nine and a half year or nine nine 28:00 nine year nine months, North Atlanta Bourbons pick and I I chose both of those. I chose the North Atlanta one because the Brett face bottle was all OESK and this was one of the last store pics that I had that was also only OESK. Alright, so if you had to choose one where do you going with 28:25 I know hopefully their listeners I'm bored. Well 28:28 the comments going rolling around like I said, I don't love both of them. I think if I had to pick I'll pick two just cuz 28:37 like one just so I just get so much alcohol that I can't really taste much else whereas to I can kind of get some 28:46 basic bourbon notes you know a little bit better. They're both pretty underwhelming for me. Not underwhelming, but just very average number one has a bit more of a punch to me. Yeah. Which a lot of people think that 29:00 is hot or its heat. Yeah. I don't typically mind it as much. However, number two definitely has a little more subdued. Little more oak. Yep. And I like my tannins. So I know he does. Like, yeah, he's cheap for tenants. 29:19 Dry oak or the sweet. Oh, I'm more of a shadow. Yeah, I mean, that's what that's my nickname. So they called me come to sweet. Oh. 29:27 Alright, you want to reveal this one? Kenny. All right, I'll reveal this one. So I'm on number two. Ryan. I'm number two as well, man it is it's a close tie. But the ethanol knows on one. I yeah, I got I gotta go with to, to just got much more sweeter kind of reveal. All right, well, we kind of nailed that one. So this was the four rows. Okay. 29:49 Number two was the bread face bottle. It was the 14 year OESK barrel strength Limited Edition. And then the first one was the nine year nine months. 30:00 SK gotcha so in this particular instance the limit earliest when the limited release me yes so how about it? Alright, so let's go ahead and dump them out and get ready for them the first one was a store pick right the Yes The first one was the store pick that's correct grab another glass over there Ron if you can and will create our glass or dump glass over here. Mikey are the ones you've been on where the most memorable barrel pics or any stories from those two mean hopefully the one you went on with us but yeah you know no pressure 30:33 I mean Buffalo Trace is always on someone's just picking a barrel there and doesn't matter really what whiskey it is the set to get into a pickle Buffalo Trace it's on everyone's list right? So that one was great. I really as far as like tours go and overall barrel picking experience, man I mean castle and key. They they even though they don't have anything on the market yet, like the ability to taste arrived or weeded and then lay it back. 31:00 down. I mean, the experience overall was really great there. So I feel like Yeah, it was. That was overall my best so far. And you know, Buffalo Trace was great as well. But out of the out of the few that I've done, castle and key was, was hands down my favorite. And usually I'll try to point people toward a tour there for coming in from out of town, the castle and key I was kind of blown away with like, I'd seen it before the renovation and went, I knows time sensitive information. But last week, you know, last weekend did a pin hook pic with the breaking bourbon guys and man, that place is awesome. Like it is like the gardens are beautiful. Like all the architecture inside like it's a great blend of like modern architecture with old architecture like I just 31:47 I mean, it comes with a steep price tag. I think they said their tours are like 30 bucks. Yeah, for an hour. But I mean, but I know that I mean it's totally different. Like you could literally spend Well, we did spend six hours 32:00 If you wanted to you could spend all day there. I mean, it's it's a great beautiful location. Yeah. If you're a history nerd like I am. So there is that kind of on beyond that adds to the experience. Yeah. I mean new riff they're new, but man, they take care of you really well, there as well. So some of it is just, it's just different. So that's, that's the reality of some of these pics. Like, some might not be better than the other but who's our least favorite? Should we not say that we bought and again, bye bye. Yeah. My bad. No, don't do that. 32:32 There's really not some that are, like terrible, right? None are actually terrible. 32:38 I mean, the only ones that are terrible. 32:41 Maybe my opinion is terrible is that you don't even actually go in the barrel pick. You just have the sample ship tonight. Yeah, like that's just Yeah, I don't know. I mean, obviously, geographic geography kind of plays a role in that. But yeah, it's it's not as exciting. Well, it's just part of what it is though. There's probably very few people that go on a barrel pick and walk away, saying 33:00 I wish I would have done that barrel pick. 33:03 Yeah, that's that's probably very true. So I just so we're here at letter C Now I keep wanting to say the number c so letter C, and often knows like the nose right away like I'm like pulling number two, like way ahead of the pack here. Yeah. 33:21 They're both the both noses are far better than the ones from the last rounds. Like on the these two. So we're tasting right now trying to figure out exactly I know where we are. Right? We are. We are easily and Eliza Craig land. Yeah, this is totally worked on. I gave that spiel about how I'm taking seriously, I'm failing pursuit series. That's okay. But I mean, this is a work in progress. So, you know, the life of Craig brain in itself, like I'm a huge fan of it. Oh, yeah, they're, they're doing it. They're doing a lot of good things in regards of not only putting out what people have been asking for for years, which was a very 34:00 Proof release, you know, they brought out should I say reintroduce the 18 and 23 year expressions A few years ago, the only thing that you can't find anymore is the 21 year expression. But you know, honestly out of those older expressions and by the way i can tell you OA you can totally tell right just first said what each one is. Yeah, so I can tell you exactly the comparison here what we're looking at and ones and Elijah Craig 18 year another is an Elijah Craig store pick that was done by the lock and key society so lock Oh, I thought you were saying the first class logic Craig. I'm like, No, it's not. A second one is why I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, but I'm just saying. I'm just saying the lineup and so anybody that's unfamiliar lock and key is based out of Julio up a New England. They're a pretty big player in that that store pic world. They've been doing it for years and years and years. I've actually got an old store pick. I'm down. I think my last job 35:00 of one of the the last ever Bernheim we store pics that were ever available. Heaven Hill what opened up to doing your own Evan Williams your own Bernheim, your own header mechanic all that sort of stuff then they kind of put the handcuffs on you to is definitely got to be the 18 and one is the 35:21 it's that eight to 12 year like Elijah Craig got the nutty toffee candy bar notes like stuff I enjoy so I'm definitely like one year program pick to the Hollywood pick two. But you know when I was when I was talking to Mikey about this and we were talking about store pics versus limited releases I actually thought I didn't do it but I thought about doing it because it's not actually technically a store pick or store release. But I said what if we did an Elijah Craig barrel proof versus like a nine year like will it family estate? Oh, yeah, I was like that one actually might be that would be pretty comparable. Well, obviously it is comparable. 35:59 It's the same exact 36:00 Liquid but both of these are really good Actually, I prefer one just because it's kind of got some of the sweeter not your candy bar kind of notes that I like. But that's just preference and I think number one, it's pretty easy to see that the 94 proof plan Oh yeah. And that's I think that's also evolving on both of them. They're both very light. Well, I mean, Mikey, like, tell me about this like, what would what in the market would change if heaven Hill opened up a logic Craig program and they just said, Yeah, put it a barrel proof. Yeah, I mean, you're going to get a wider range. I think of a first off people wanting Elijah Craig. Because it is it is very 36:44 I don't want this I don't want us to use the word delicate but I will use the word LB feels very delicate. When you put it next to the the UCLA team. There's a lot more depth to it. I think there could be a lot more depth to a single barrel pic of alleged credible 37:00 Proof if they would just open that up I guess it just depends on your consumer so like if you're you know the the first one like for what I think it's going to appeal to more of a almost a common but i mean you know like you know it's just because it's it's not the it's not the enthusiast in mind here it's very approachable very enjoyable but like get to you're definitely gonna get like you said more complexity depth 37:28 to might be more off putting to like a common consumer I'd say common but like, you know, or new consumer but I don't know depends on your consumer but I want the barrel proof because it's logical. Operators are always home runs like I've never had a bad one. Can't say I've ever had one. Well, I mean, there's the mean. So you know, Mike Sahni personally so you know that there's a lot that actually goes into making sure that an electric guard barrel proof isn't just a mistake, either right? Like Like they, they choose barrels specifically that go in 38:00 into it 38:02 which is a little bit different you know we've we've talked to the people that haven't Hill and when you talk about Elijah Craig 23 or when you try to find 23 year old barrels, it's actually very very hard. Yeah, and end up dumping a lot of them into like, just Edwin's Black Label because it's so it's so it's undrinkable. Yes. It's the oak is just overpowered. There's a bank on that point, right? There's, there's Law of Diminishing Returns without like, you know, can and somebody went the good thing I learned to catch lucky with the Pinot guy, because I was like, so how do you? You know, you have a really good barrel it say like 12 to 14 years. Like do you bottle dinner? Do you let it age? Do you know to keep will I keep improving? And he's like, No, he's like, Do you want something that's going to age you need something that's really soft, elegant, sweet at that age, because the folks really at 15 1617 is really going to start to overpower it. If it's already ready, you know, does that make sense? Oh, no, it makes sense. And so that that was kind of an 39:00 Lighting because we talked about, you know, US buying some 14 year and sitting on it for three to four years. But we were like, how do you This one's really great. Should we just because it's so great we hang on to it or should we look for something that's will do better with age? And that was kind of good advice. Yeah. And it's always a it's always a costly mistake if it never works. 39:21 Well, we'll just bottle it anyway. 39:24 No, okay, so let's go ahead let's reveal this one because I think I think this one yeah, is as bad as it sounds like I knew the bottles I chose them going into it. However, I let my wife figure out exactly what we should do. However, I thought we had Yeah, it's it's I mean, we want to live correct tangent for 39:44 a bit funny. It feels like not Brussels. 39:48 It would have been funny, but yeah, this one's too easy. The locking key and see Tuesday 18 years. Oh, yeah. Alright, so good work. So I mean, but the thing is, is like I don't mind 40:00 lock and key one like you're right like it's totally like a good drinkable bourbon. Yeah, for an average consumer that just wants to get into it. However, 40:10 I don't know if a lot of the electric barrel pics are speaking to the the enthusiastic market yeah maybe they'll keep going it's still fun it's still fun to go you know you talk to people from like bourbon Crusaders and they come out with a lot of good pics too. And the thing is, is though it's just kind of like I just wish they didn't take it down in 94 proof you know there's there's something about when you cross under that hundred threshold that I don't know Mikey, have you found anything underneath 100 that you're like, Hey, you know, like I can do this every single day like there's one there's one bottle and Brandon I do and I did this in the blind. So that's how I know. But maybe I don't know the proof. Exactly. But George Remus. I tend to like I like that bottle. 40:59 Not a fan of 41:00 why they chose George Remus of all people But anyways, you're part of the ground 41:07 and stuff is not necessary someone to model your life after. But But Remus Yeah, I love I love that bottle. I love the bourbon in it. I think it might be 90 proof. Yeah, typically under 100 proof like, like, you have to get into some dusty. He's like, okay, dads, and I mean, and we're like, 41:27 you know, like Victor's 20s or something, you know, because they're 94 proof or they actually might be right I don't know I've got one back there but I don't feel like getting up and looking at it. And so we're handing everything to Ryan do not mix see one and see two together like because 41:44 ECA teams just too good. I like it like it. Yeah. For me, for me. I love Elijah Craig a team when I am I'm sitting in the basement, and it's late at night. And like, I can't do like a barrel proof. Like it's just it's just like 42:00 I'm not able to go to sleep at night if I if I got that back in the bottle well who knows I've got it's a long day ahead of us still so yeah, you know I liked 18 I mean it for me the tags really sit and kind of dry and just like on the in which it kind of sits there and lingers for a bit and I'm like hi go away please 42:20 see not me I mean I'm Mike What about you like Do you like tannins? Because I like I said I like a lot of rich oak complexity complexity that what those really bring into it. I mean, that's it for me when you when you get a lot of oak that means that the barrel is doing something like tremendous and that's that's really what I get out of it. Yeah, I I'm a fan of the sweet oak if you can give me a finish with a sweet oak and like a dried cherry name that just last four days. Yeah, I mean, sign me up. Sign me up. Not a fan of the dry. Oh because much. I feel like it's got my get your lip smacking back and forth. 43:00 And just makes you thirsty. Not a big fan of the drive but the sweet Oh yeah, it doesn't make you feel like oh man you can you can almost taste the process. Yeah a little bit so I'm with you on that one and that's what I mean I'm a fan of just open general because it definitely is more of an overpowering flavor like up. I'll put it to you guys is like is there is there something on the flavor wheel right i mean we've all seen before that that you don't like to get out of a bourbon. 43:33 The 2019 Kentucky's edge bourbon conference and festival pairs all things Kentucky with bourbon. It takes place October 4 and fifth at venues throughout Covington in Newport Kentucky, Kentucky's edge features of bourbon conference music tastings pairings tours and in artists and market Kentucky's edge 2019 is where bourbon begins. Tickets and information can be found online at Kentucky's edge calm 43:58 as the saying goes 44:00 Portland is weird. Perhaps it's something in the water. It turns out that there might be some truth to that. The Oregon capitals primary water source is supplied by the Bull Run watershed. It's also the key ingredient in one of the city's most popular watering holes, Bull Run distillery. The boulder and watershed is a very unique water source. 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Use code pursuit for $25 off 45:00 Your first box 45:04 I'll put it to you guys is like is there is there something on the flavor wheel right i mean we've all seen before that that you don't like to get out of a bourbon. I mean for me definitely like some people some people are like oh I don't like like orange zest or orange peel or whatever No, I mean honestly I like freer freer whiskies I really like 45:25 like I'm with you know we're talking the barrel guys I really like when you get those like great notes and just too much because very off putting for me, like like he said, he gets dry and you're smacking your lips and like trying to get some moisture back into your 45:42 region, you know, but 45:45 other than that, I mean, I obviously I hate young stuff like where you just get green forward, you know, grassy or like, where it's like hey are you know, we I won't name any names, but we've had, we've had 46:00 You know, that's just very off putting for me. I agree. I agree. It's the last thing you want to do is sit there and expect something and then all of a sudden, it's like, Did I just mow my grass a second video? And that's in my mouth? Yep. Yeah, for sure. Alright, so now we're on letter D. So, you all won that one. Right? Well, I mean, I should say you all, like I said, I'm a nice person. Yeah, I think like I said, I'm just a fan of of what they do there. However, you know, that's the limited release, you know, so limited releases up to two one. Well, that's a hard one, though, because it's because it wasn't the same proof. It wasn't, you know, yeah. You can get in the gift shop almost every day. Right. Exactly. So no, not this isn't limited to Maryland, Maryland. Okay, that's a hard one. Yeah. And, and, you know, there's it To be honest, like there's a lot of things that we thought about that we couldn't do today. So, we looked at the the potential of doing an old forester single barrel versus an old forester birthday. 47:00 But I would have been a good one. Yeah, problem is, we haven't been on old forester. 47:05 And I guess we need to probably line that up. But the other thing it was like, just weren't thinking ahead of time enough to be able I sounds like a little like, let's go ahead and get it. And then the other one was looking at 47:20 Oh, gosh, I'm like looking at the bar thinking, Oh, yeah, we're looking at doing like a and this is not even a store pic versus limited release. But this is like a Sazerac rye versus a Thomas h handy. Yeah, it's like the proof 47:33 is me too crazy. Like you go you'll be able to pick it out like well that's and that's the problem is that like to do any of these with the the antique collection actually be pretty difficult to do. Because you could do a stag where's the stag Jr. Maybe? That was about as close as you could probably get. But you know, when you look at Eagle rare 17 versus regular Eagle rare, I think you're gonna hit the same exact problem that you saw at the Elijah Craig. It's just gonna be 48:00 Rich of depth of the oak. The same thing was Sazerac, 18 and Sasha cry, it's just going to be the richness and depth, I mean, you're going to hit that same problem no matter where you go. 48:12 So there is there is a reason why they make limited releases. It's just trying to find some of those limited releases that matched sort of the either the same proof or profile or age that I think that you really need to try to find and get out of this. 48:27 I love the nose on both of these. Actually. 48:31 That's pretty common with Russell's, which I think this is I don't think so. The other thing is the Russell's, or anything. It's raw, I guess, right? I mean, I haven't tasted it yet. But it's only because I know. 48:43 Because, you know, right now see, I need to stop it. Okay. 48:50 So far? Yeah, we've been pretty good. So Mike, you all kind of point this question over to you because I know that there's a lot of people out there. Travis Hill. He's been Oh yeah, for totally rock and 49:00 Yeah, there you go. And there's a lot of people out there that try to make their own four roses. Limited Edition small batch. I mean have you have you looked at creating your own kind of like small batch out of like different store pics or anything like that before I've not done it with great strategic content to create a certain brand or for the lease I have done the you know, the classic blend bottle or simple call infinity bottle. It was infinity until I tasted it and liked it. Then I stopped and then they became my blend because I stopped putting things in it. Yeah, so people would people tasted like this is great. And I give it out. And you had a record of it out like Exactly, yeah, regret it. Yeah, I do keep your record but I yeah, I lost it. But yeah, I would give it my dog always doing like bottle shares and things like that. Get people assemble, get everything done what it was, and they were like, this is really good. What is it like? It's actually just a blend of like 17 different two outs for else and things that were time, but I've never done it intentionally. I haven't 50:00 guys that's tried you know the the poor man's Pappy and have tried to recreate the the Al young with the blends that they think will work but sometimes it's 50:09 in there 50:11 there is something to it. You know, there was there was a blind taste in that Blake from bourbon or hosted years ago that I was a part of as well as a few other people. And oddly enough, like he sent six samples and we had to rank each sample kind of like flavors and everything notes and everything that we're getting out of it. 50:31 And, and it was it was it was so climatic at the very end because it was all happening. You know, he sent the samples we submitted him. And then at the very end, you know, we all got on YouTube or Google Hangouts and promoted on YouTube and we all got on there and come to find out the variant. The number one bourbon we all love was a exactly what you said a poor man's Pappy that was mixed in a ninja blender. 51:01 Me and I don't know if it has something to say about aeration. I don't have the something to say about anything else but it's this like, Yeah, he literally threw in a ninja blender. Yeah. And that's what one out of like, six different Bourbons. So it's crazy it kind of goes to show that you can 51:18 can always just think that the most limited things are going to be the best things. Yeah, I'll probably be adding a ninja blender to my Amazon wish list here Yo, I have they are fantastic. My quick smoothies and movies and bourbon What else? What else you want to mix just don't mix the smoothies with the barber. Alright, so for me I already know like what this is I can smell it. I can taste it. So two is going to be it for me. tues definitely, I mean, I'm torn one would be a great everyday drinker. It's got a lot of complex like great it's a great poor but to is like, to me is like really like something special. Like 52:00 That I would want out of a limited release or like a store pick, you know, something special. Like, that's I really like to so I they're both really good I already I mean, I can just buy the nose and it tastes like already know what they are. So my camera on a push over to you is to worth like $950 more right now. 52:20 That's a great question. 52:23 What is that? Because that's that's ultimately I mean, I'll tell you what if if it's reversed in the reveal, I will I'll just go ahead and wrap it up. I'll put my card like listen bourbon pursuit over my case the was 15 point proof difference, you know, between the wanting to 52:42 which kind of gives you a hint, but yeah, it'd be funny though if they are reversed. Hey, is the 52:49 question, but I think it has an easy answer. And there's no price difference wise, there's no way 52:56 if you want something that's simple, and there's there's nothing 53:00 off putting about this, right? To me, there's nothing like putting at all. But this one does have the number two has a lot more depth character. And the proof differences, definitely evident. 53:15 Especially on the back end it just stick in there to your tongue in a good way. I mean, at this point, there's, there's a lesson to be learned here. Right? I mean, we're, we're four or five deep. And I think we've already noticed that when it comes to special releases that the age the age is the important part. You know, the age adds a level of complexity and characteristic to it that you necessarily won't get anywhere else. Yeah. So far, we were dumbfounded by one, right. Yeah, having a 53:45 Weller 107 pick that actually beat out the Weller craft your own perfect bourbon. From then on. It's been really a difference in age. Yep. From there, I mean, it's Yeah, it's hard to replicate well, and that's why I mean, 54:00 With like NGP you know people go crazy with like the 1012 for it. It's more has to do with age like the age age whiskey is great like these Tennessee age whiskeys are fantastic. Like Kentucky age stuff it has to do with age like it's not necessarily the magic pill, the Jews, whatever, it's when you get to that 10 to 14 year range it there's magical, you know happens right there and it's it is it is what it is. Alright, so I'm going to go ahead and do the reveal. Because I can't wait anymore. Yeah, that's exactly what we thought it was. So D one was the knob Creek from Westport whiskey and wine in D two was the but they didn't try. They did a great job on do you want I mean, that's a sore pic for me. Yes. And that's what I mean. That's, that's the thing that we talked about the whole entire time is that you can get that for what 60 bucks versus 950. You know, it's I mean, even if you were if you were even on top of it, even when it was 450 55:00 Yeah to even get your hands on it so and this was years ago so it was definitely a tough way to to make it happen so again this is one we're not going to mix yeah do not do not mix these guys after the show is over y'all we are going to be probably just celebrating with the rest of the stuff we like to drink covers. Yeah the leftovers right. So the best of the all infinity bottles if you will. So Mikey, ending on a lot says elimination we have Russell's we 55:33 can i can tell you right now because I was a part of it. We're pouring out letter E. And we do with letter E like I already know what it is versus the brand. However, these guys don't know what it what it is. So I'm going to go ahead and just kind of reserve my comments for absolutely everything and just let them figure it out. So you know as we as we start going down this path though. What do you 56:00 You found like the most interesting well so far I mean the three three limited releases have one versus the store pics wishes Do you think it's a Do you think it's an oversight on our part that maybe we didn't choose the best comparisons because as I mentioned earlier like it's it's age versus a lot of stuff some I don't know though because I mean it store pictures still getting really good pores I mean, but think about it like think about other brands like I mean look at the shelf like is there anything else that like we missed going into this like think of like, like I said, we already talked about old for certain for suburbia urban bag would be the bag and stag it's Junior would probably be a good one as well. Like I said you could do like you could do a 7092 full proof versus like a Kentucky alpha later. Oh, cuz cuz you you think that's where it comes from? I think so. So that's your that's your excuse guess? Yeah, I think so. But I was way off on Sunday. 57:00 These guys have them. So, but yeah, I mean, other than that, I mean, because you got some MGP stuff, but like, they're all there. There's such a wide range like from person. It's hard and it's not often there's not like a ton of everyday offerings with MGP. Well, we had talked about this beforehand. I've tried to figure out like, Is there a single and that's that's an I guess that's the problem when you get when you get to what we can do this but it might kick us in the teeth like a pursuit series versus 57:31 decal, you know. 57:34 We're not well, just kidding. Well, 57:37 it doesn't exist. Yeah. So that's the other thing. Yeah. But the other the other part of it was ready barrel, I guess. Barrel versus procedure. They do a lot of blending. Yeah. So that's not a true comparison. So I mean, it's it's an Indiana country, I think the will it will it versus Elijah Craig barrel proof would be a good one because just to get it out there. 58:00 Yep, I mean, who knows, but I mean, when I look at it like I, it would have been good to do like a regular Booker's versus I mean, Booker's I didn't want to open up a book or 25th for this I was sorry just be honest with you, I'm not going to achieve f4 but I mean, that versus Booker's 30th or something like that like Booker's vs Booker's because at the same exact, you know, the end of the day, like each one of those is very good in its own right. However, like the the proof points are can be a whole lot of difference. Yeah. When you get to that high improved and you're in the hundred and 25 230 130 proof. Yeah. Who knows if your your your your taste buds in your flavor profile can actually discern a lot of stuff that's actually happening at that level. Yeah, right. Actually. Oh my gosh, like I'm tasting these I'm knows the side by side. I don't think I can tell the difference now. So now we're doing a wild turkey comparison. Russell's reserve versus the 17 year decades for 59:00 Nice. And I mean on first on first knows, like, there's no difference. There's no discernible difference whatsoever. The first one? 59:12 I don't know, they're pretty close. I was like, the first one may have a little more alcohol, but I don't know. That's they're pretty similar. You mean and this is and this also goes back into each conversation right? I mean like when we talk about age like 17 years you expect to have a lot more depth on the complexity a lot more more of this sort of stuff. However, we've we've seen the praises of Russell's reserve for years. It's one of the best single barrel pics that you can get out there today. You know, me and the best I can I'm one of the not been altered and pick yet I'm turkey pick y'all man, but you're the one actually brought today's pic. I didn't know. So I'm getting I mean, maybe it's because I do get a little more ethanol on the first one. And then I go straight to the second one. The smells a little sweeter. Yep, I'm totally getting a little sweeter on the second one. 1:00:00 But they are very very close. I love both of them. I knew that was was like I mean Russell's are one of those things you can just knows all day. Both these are fantastic. I mean it, it's actually very good number one is really good. 1:00:15 It's actually very hard to find a discernible difference. I mean, there's a little bit of difference in the taste, but it's not so much that you're like, Okay, this is this is a difference of $100 right here like it's it's it's very, very different. tues got I don't know I like the mouth feel have to like it's got and it's got more like a little more sugary brown sugary, kind of syrupy kind of texture to it. One is very good, but two is kind of more I don't know just real rich and sugary to me like syrupy like they're they're pretty damn close are very close. I mean for something that's almost like a mean it's not it's not a decade's worth of difference, but I mean, you're looking at at least six to nine years. Right of what you see between 1:01:00 Some of the older reserved pics from Russell's versus the decades releases so I'm going to go with two but not that much. They're they're pretty close tues oily on the panel I don't know you kind of want to yeah two is got a longer lasting finish the nose is sweeter 1:01:20 sounds like for you it's a landslide one this is a yeah for me it's a landslide too so too Alright, so Ryan there go ahead and reveal the last one we have today. 1:01:30 haha what do you think? 1:01:34 Well it sounds like it sounds like you're gonna toss balls with sounds like well so two is actually the CFPB pick Oh 1:01:44 decades There we go. So yet another chance where we get the final store pick Yes, you do single barrels making a comeback. I mean, when we look at the results from today, I mean it's three to two but it's not it's not a it just said a landslide victory. I mean, it's it's something that is it's a 1:02:00 It's almost comparable, if you can find that, that one little place that does really good things, versus somebody that just, I don't know just accepts it or finds the barrels at the store and does whatever. There's there's actually validity to the, to the that. By the way, this was all for science. Yeah. So make sure that everybody knows is all today, but it's all subjective and we don't matter. Yes, that's also very true. And you cannot buy any of these anywhere. So it's it's it's all it's all gone. So yeah, I mean, the first two I mean, we're really like, you know, with the 1:02:40 the CYLB. I mean, I was amazed at how bad that was. Like, I just did not like it at all. Well, not bad. Not a bad for the money. Ryan we get a lot of stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's not bad. We know what bad whiskey I guess I was just after revealing it. I was like, pretty disappointed. And if anything, 1:03:00 I feel like what it does is helps people see to not fall into the trap of fo mo to fall in trap of hype because the fact that CYPB is for 500 bucks and you can get a single barrel pick a low WA for 150 or if you're lucky enough good at retail 60 bucks it's like man chase chasing one that tastes better yeah and so and it should bring some validity to those who are still into those who are blending because Ed lie is a blender and he picked this barrel at turkey so there is some validity even to like hey they they're getting paid lots of money every year to do this professionally. So let's end even if you go to a liquor bar party source or cork and bottle they have tasting bars Yeah, so you can taste these things before you get into all the gotta have it because there's a line well maybe you don't even like the bottle that you're standing line for. Yeah, it's hate tastings before you before you buy them but I mean there's there's some psychology there to the line thing. Oh for sure. I mean every everybody thinks that like 1:04:00 We've all been there. We've been in the morning, and then all of a sudden, there's somebody that walks up be like, online for. I know, like 1:04:10 there's, there's, there's a there's a group mentality to it, right? Yeah, for sure. It's not fun, but it's reality and what it is, it's animal spirits, you know, we're all we all just follow the herd, you know, so. 1:04:23 But I mean, for today, I'm actually very pleased to kind of see the results because coming away with at least two out of the five that weren't limited releases, give some justification. Yeah, well, and we're thinking today into what I mean, when you're doing store pics. It's really based on who's going who's picking what they like and whatnot so like, you know, find a store or find someone that kind of meets your what you like, and you know, that's, you can find stuff that's just as good as the big price tag Islam releases. It's not even that I mean, we had we had some unfair 1:05:00 competition to. Right mean, if you think about it, like the logic reg. Yeah. 18 year versus like a nine to a 12 year? Yep. It's not it's not a fair competition. So when we think of which I preferred the nine to two, I know 1:05:17 a lot of people from you and your side to main, but you know, well, I'm a tandem person like that. Yeah, like, but that is that is not a fair comparison. So, we'd love to hear from other people. Maybe we'll, we'll revisit this again in a year or two. And if you think that there are other Bourbons out there that fit the either the the mash bill the proof and the age statement that you can compare against, then you know, we should we should probably look at it again. I mean, could well is Blanton's in like Buffalo Trace similar magical or they just they're they're different. They're definitely different Matadors Elmer and buffalo or what's Elmer trying to I'm trying to get I'm trying to 1:06:00 Marla and Blanton's are in the same Nashville. Two Gods one is Buffalo Trace Eagle rare in if we had an eagle rare rare double, whatever. 17 1:06:15 Yeah, but yeah, I don't think anybody will have that much funding for science. 1:06:20 I think on the the mark right now is hovering 9000. So he's, yeah, that's, that's not going to happen. Now. Those are trophies. They're not getting drunk. Yep. But Mikey, I want to say thank you so much for honestly, bringing this idea to us because this was, like I said, it's it's fascinating to go through and do this not only to test our strengths or test our knowledge. You know, I know Ryan is gonna go back home tonight and he's gonna be like, all right, I gotta go ahead and I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull the spoon of peanut butter my nose and just make sure I know what peanut butter smells. Yeah, easy, easy, easy to really take this seriously, for sure. You got to Yep, get my color wheel out. 1:07:00 My flavor wheel but I mean it was it was actually a really good not only just like I said different experience for us but I think for our listeners as well to kind of see like what else is out there like what can you experience and to not take everything at you know what what the label says Inaki cut off at the height because that's the problem with all of us we get caught up in the one thing we could just thought I was like Weller 107 versus like Pappy 15 or well or 12 versus Pappy 20 because of the boat the same person is more age, man. It's true and bigger price tag, you know, a lot bigger price tag. We'll do it next time I guess. So we got something for the next round. So make sure you all stick around for that. So Mikey, before we close out here, if there's any way that people want to know more about you, I mean, do you have any social handles that people want to know about you or anything like that? Sure. Yeah, I'm on all most of the social medias and book faces and all those fun things. Yeah, but uh, yeah, so I do have a group and I 1:08:00 called sacred suppers we sip great whiskey for a greater purpose so we're on Facebook Instagram you can find us there yeah like I said I'm on Facebook so and Instagram as well under my handle Mikey Conrad We do lots of charity work with our group charity we fund and help with barrel pics is called the arena project so check out their website by a nice thing for the charity there read more about what we're doing there. But that's kind of what you know I'm in the game for is less than other people and and yeah and good whiskey with them and sharing fun stories. And so yeah, pleasure to be here today to do this and taste some great whiskey with you guys. Well, thank you so much for being here. And I'm actually a take a moment just to say like, I'm very happy to see that you know, the runner project and just everything that happens with inside of the whiskey world is actually very good in regards of donating bottles, raising money, like there's a lot of stuff that happens with inside of board. 1:09:00 of everything that happens here. So, you know, cheers to you and cheers everybody else that that raises money for good causes, but people don't need a bottle of 1:09:11 Pappy 10, right. 1:09:14 They want to, they want to put it to a better cause like that's Yeah, that's awesome. It's a great way to make it happen. So choose you for that for for making it happen. So, Ryan, I'll go ahead and let you close it out. Yeah, thanks for this awesome ideas, a lot of fun. I had a great time. Definitely need to go back and work on my skills. You know, so I can 1:09:34 be at home then. But, uh, no, this was fun. And I want to do this again. This was great. And, you know, if you like what you hear, let us know, if you don't like what you hear, let us know. 1:09:47 Give us more ideas because we don't always have the best ones. And so yeah, just keep, keep giving us feedback and comments. We'd love them. So yeah, with that, we'll see you next time. 1:10:11 The world's biggest music and bourbon festival is even bigger September 20 21st and 22nd at Highland festival grounds at the Kentucky, Louisville with Foo Fighters. 1:10:24 Zac Brown band 1:10:27 Robert Plant and this insatiable spaceship, 1:10:30 Daryl Hall and john Oates, john CZ john Leon bridges and more complete lineup of musical artists and celebrity chefs at Herbert and beyond calm Transcribed by https://otter.ai
19 Sep 2019
241 - Celebrities in Bourbon and the Current State of the Secondary on Bourbon Community Roundtable #41
On this episode, we touch on three topics. First, we look at how bourbon producers can reach new consumers. Then we take on the new celebrity craze. Over the past year, there have been about half a dozen music artists and TV personalities that have come out with bourbons. While we don’t see this trend stopping, we ask ourselves if this is good for bourbon as a whole. Lastly, we examine the current state of the secondary market. It’s a group consensus that we all miss it, but how has it affected value, store pricing, and distributor allocation? Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Barrell Craft Spirits enjoys finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. They then bottle them at cask strength to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiast. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about celebrity whiskey. How do bourbon producers reach new customers? What about new label designs? What do you think about celebrities getting into bourbon? Are celebrities helping or hurting bourbon? Let's discuss the current state of the secondary market.
20 Feb 2020
180 - 2018 Whiskey of the Year and 2019 Predictions on Bourbon Community Roundtable #27
It's one of our favorite episodes of the year. The Roundtable takes a look back at Bourbon in 2018 and our picks for Whiskey of the Year. We then kick off the second half of the show with our predictions for 2019 about expansions, acquisitions, price increases, and lots more...including our favorite 90s and 2000s rap artists. Show Partners: Coming this fall to the Barrell Craft Spirits line is a marriage of 13-year old vintage rums from Barbados, Guyana and Jamaica Show Notes: This weeks Above the Char with Fred Minnick has him answering random questions off twitter. 2018 Year in Review What was your whiskey of the year What is your greatest accomplishment of 2018? Vintage Spirits Law came into effect in KY We picked our first barrel together Longbranch made it's Wild Turkey debut Brian won a case with Castle & Key against Sazerac over the Old Taylor distillery name 2019 Predictions Banned Crotchshots in Bourbonr and now he's looking for the next great suggestion to improve the group for 2019 Lots of year end expansions being announced in 2018. Do we expect more in 2019? Will prices continue to grow? Four Roses Private Barrel program increase starts Jan 1. Henry McKenna won SF Spirits comp in 2018. Will the Henry McKenna fad pass in 2019? Denny Potter left Heaven Hill for Maker's Mark in 2018. Will Heaven Hill find a new Master Distiller? Is there an issue if they don't find one in a timely fashion? Then we finish talking about 90s and 2000s rap icons
20 Dec 2018
069 - Fred Minnick, author of Bourbon: The Rise, Fall, and Rebirth of an American Whiskey
Fred Minnick, acclaimed bourbon author who also happens to have the Amazon #1 Best Selling book in the Whiskey Category Bourbon: The Rise, Fall, and Rebirth of an American Whiskey, shares his history before bourbon, dive into chapters of bourbon history, and get his opinion on barrel finishes if it’s still a bourbon and age statement removals Acclaimed bourbon author and media pundit on all things bourbon who is always dressed to the 9s and who also happens to have the Amazon #1 Best Selling book in the Whiskey Category Bourbon: The Rise, Fall, and Rebirth of an American Whiskey Now lets talk about life before bourbon. What were you doing before then? What was the turning point that got you into bourbon or just whiskey in general? Let’s talk about your latest book Bourbon: The Rise, Fall, and Rebirth of an American Whiskey and I want to read everyone the first line from it so they have an idea what they are in for. “Bourbon is more American than Apple Pie, existed before baseball, and has built more roads, schools, and government infrastructure than any other non-petroleum domestic product” and you finish off the thought with “Bourbon is good for America. And it’s time we understand the historic intricacies that make it so unique” Talk about the inspiration behind writing this piece. I want to learn a bit about some of the individual chapters without giving too much away. So i’ll give you the title for a few of them and give the listeners an idea of what they can expect when they read What did you learn through the process of writing? Last week there was a pretty interesting discussion happening online and everyone has to weigh their own opinion. It was an argument that a bourbon finished in a different barrel can no longer be considered a bourbon and should have it’s own category defining itself. What’s your thoughts on finished bourbon in regards to the technicality of their category? You can find all of Fred’s books including Bourbon Curious, Whiskey Women and more on Amazon and links on his website fredminnick.com
22 Oct 2016
212 - The Largest Bourbon Secondary Market with Owen Powell
Last week, CNN reported that Facebook and Instagram are shutting down all peer to peer sales of alcohol. This wasn’t a joke. In the span of 72 hours, all of the major bourbon groups were wiped out. The secondary market is synonymous with Facebook. The growth of bourbon’s popularity can be attributed to it as well by those that are in it to flip bottles. Owen Powell didn’t create the first group to buy, sell, and trade bourbon, but he certainly created the largest. The Bourbon Secondary Market group is no longer around on Facebook, but the story of how it was built, the ways discussions were moderated, and how it served as a data gold mine for valuations is told. We uncover the progression of the group from a few hundred members to reaching over 50,000, what leads to certain distilleries being banned on a black market, and if the secondary market will actually end if Facebook groups cease to exist. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at business.louisville.edu/onlinespirits. Barrell Craft Spirits has won a few medals at some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there, but don’t take their word for it and find out for yourself. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Check out Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Parker's Heritage Collection. How did you get into bourbon? Talk about the growth of the group. Were there any growing pains? How many members are in the group? How many admins do you have? What do you look for in admins? Why do people have animosity towards admins in these groups? Let's talk about the rules in the group. How did the secondary raffle site become its own thing? How does a dispute come about? What do all the acronyms mean? What is the best way to handle a dispute? Have you ever had accusations of counterfeits? How do you handle that kind of situation? Why did you do an open group? Do you keep a log of all the transactions? You’ve banned a few distilleries. How are rules like that determined? Why do you run the group even though you don't get paid? What do you do when someone prices something too high? What about monthly dues? Do you think groups could end on Facebook? 0:00 Have you thought about a career in the whiskey industry? I'm not talking about being the next master distiller. But if you want a leg up on the competition, you need to take a look at the distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. This 30 week program will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry like finance, marketing and operations. This is 100% online meaning you can access the classes at anytime and anywhere so what are you waiting for? Get signed up to make your next career move at business.louisville.edu/onlinespirits 0:35 people add their wives to the group and then immediately regret it because you know their wives mad at them they're always on their phone. wife gets in there sees how much they're spending on it then it's like when you kick my wife out know that you got to do figure that out on your own. I'm not getting in the middle of that. I think I might add my wife 0:52 to it because because being part of the podcast now I'm like, I gotta you gotta have a pulse on what's happening. So you know exactly uninvite. 1:10 Hey, this is Episode 212 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny. And as usual, a little bit of news. On July 26 2019 beam Suntory broke ground on what is to become the friend be no craft distillery. It's part of a $60 million investment and what will become known as the James be distilling company and that can be located in Claremont, Kentucky. All of the building itself will be fresh construction. The brands that are gonna be produced at this new craft distiller are ones that were already familiar with like Booker's knob Creek and Basil Hayden's all as well as new brands such as little book and legend. Its name for the seventh generation master distiller Fred know which has been on the show few times before, and this new distillery will give know and his son Freddie the opportunity to experiment with new fermentation and distillation techniques. The distillery has also announced that they will be updating the visitor experiences with behind the scene looks at their brands, a new tasting room, and much more. Heaven Hill has announced the 13th release of the Parkers heritage collection, and this will be a heavy char rye whiskey. While 2:22 standard barrels and heaven Hill are a chart three the barrels the distillery used to age this rye our char five, that means they're burned for 50 seconds longer than a typical char three. The heavier char the easier it is for the whiskey to penetrate the wooden staves and take on those heightened open spice flavors. This new ride is going to be eight years old and nine months in these and was aged also in the seventh floor of Rick house why before being non shell filtered and bottled at 105 proof. The Parkers heritage collection is named after heaven Hill master distiller Parker beam, who passed away in 2017. After being diagnosed with ALS back in 2010. portions of the sale are donated to fund ALS research, and sales from the past six editions has raised over $1 million. The retail price set on this is going to be $150 MSRP. Ryan and myself are excited to announce that we are going to begin the process of opening a distribution of pursuit series in three states. You can look forward to Georgia, Texas, and of course Kentucky as the first states that we will be hitting the first barrel has been selected by Justin's House of bourbon with a second one quickly going into liquor barn, we're super excited to be able to bring our single barrel offerings at stores selections at first. And you can look for more information on stores in the States on our website at pursuit spirits.com. Now, don't worry if you aren't even in those states or Heck, even if you are you can still purchase your bottles and have them shipped to your door through our online retailer at sealed box dot com. You can go to pursuit spirits calm and click the Buy Now button and you'll be redirected to the site for that particular single barrel. Right now we only have about 20 bottles, let them stock but we're going to have a brand new September release, so get ready for it. Last week, CNN reported that Facebook and Instagram are shutting down all sales of alcohol, cigarettes and other similar things like e cigarettes. And this wasn't a joke in the span of around 72 hours. Half of the bourbon groups that I belong to were wiped out. Many of the larger secondary groups with 30 to 50,000 members were gone immediately in over the next 24 hours more disappeared. And even some groups that sold or raffled charitable causes for bottles were gone as well. We can't say for sure if this is the end of the Facebook secondary market, but it sure is a swift kick to it. Immediately following the demise of the large groups. Many of the smaller ones with less than 3000 members change their names, they also change the rules. And while multitudes of even more smaller groups started to emerge, it's uncertain if we'll ever see a group with over 20,000 members ever again. And that's kind of why we decided to release this podcast, the secondary market, it's synonymous with Facebook. This can also be attributed to the growth of Bourbons popularity by those that are captivated at some of the values that some of these bottles Dr. ON pal didn't create the first group to buy, sell and trade bourbon, but he certainly created the largest, the bourbon secondary market group is no longer around. But the story of how it was built, the way discussions were moderated and how it served as a data gold mine for valuations is a story that needs to be told. we uncover the progression of the group from 100 members to reaching over almost at the time it was cease to exist as around 50,000. And really, we're also going to talk about what leads to certain distilleries also being banned on this black market and at the secondary market will actually end Facebook's cease to ever exist again. Now you're done listening to me. So let's go ahead and listen to Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick 6:12 with above the char. 6:15 Hey, everyone, Joe here again. Our Bourbons have won a few medals, some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there. But don't take their word for it. Find out for yourself. Use the store locator and barrellbourbon.com. 6:28 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char. This past week, I posted a photo of the new Parker's heritage release. It was like a lot of PR release images. It was shiny. It told you all about the new whiskey. And it came with a price tag hundred and 4999. So pretty drastic increase from past Parker's heritage releases past releases were around 89 to $100. So you're looking at about a 50 to 60 you know, dollar price increase depending on what market you live in. People on my Instagram went crazy. I mean, maybe not crazy, but they were very upset with the price increase. And I had people writing me saying that this is solving Parker's good name. As many people know, I was really quite close with Parker been before he passed away. And it got me to thinking about where we are in bourbon right now. There's actually price increases across the board, not just with these really nice bottles like Parker's heritage, and the Buffalo Trace antique collection. But you're seeing it like an everyday Bourbons. I remember when I used to find four roses small batch for like $20. Now it's a $40 bottle. Now, some of that is on the retailer's for selling it to that price. But the fact is Bourbons that are 40 $50, I used to pay 15 to $25. for them. That is where we are. But I'm curious, I've been curious as to how much that might actually impact the retention of consumers. So I did a little digging. And as it turns out, if you are running a business and you are selling a product, one of the best things you can do is increase your price. In fact, they say that people actually grow their profits, and they also grow their consumer base. So according to this thing called the McKinsey report, it suggests that for basically like every 1% of increase in price can yield an 8% increase in profits. But these reports and all these people who are talking who are studying price increases also preach transparency. They say, Tell your people tell your customer base, why you're increasing the price? Did your costs go up? Did you have a bad loss in the previous quarter? And you're trying to make up for it? Why are you increasing prices, if you don't start telling your consumers, especially the bourbon consumers who have been with you from the very beginning, why you're increasing your prices, you will start to see a massive boycott. I'm talking about the kind of boycott you find on social media that ends up trending and people will no longer be buying your bottles. And that new consumer you think you might get because you're increasing the price and you're not coming off as cheap. Well, that person is going to be googling who you are when they're in the total wine or whatever liquor store. And when they Google you and they find out you've been increasing your prices 50 600% they're going to walk away and they're going to go to something else. In today's day and age, you cannot increase a price almost 100% and get away with it. Consider this some free advice to Bourbons everywhere. Keep your prices affordable. So the everyday person can buy them. If you want to have really ultra expensive products, create a new product and brand it to be ultra ultra expensive. But going from $89 to 150. It's just not good. It's a bad optic. So be thoughtful with your pricing and be transparent. You'll be rewarded by customers who love your product. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, did you know that I'm also curating hometown rising a country music festival that's featuring Tim McGraw, Luke Bryan Keith Urban and Little Big Town, go check it out at hometown rising.com. I'll be on the stage and you can hit me up and have a drink with me. Until next week. Cheers. 10:52 Welcome back to the new episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon, Kinney and Ryan here today talking about us subject that is very familiar to the bourbon culture and the whiskey geek culture. Because if anybody is really getting to bourbon, you've probably gone down your aisles, you see a lot of the regular stuff that's out there, you start getting really influenced by all of it and you want to learn more about it, then you learn about, we've talked about our own journeys into this, you learn about limited releases, and how hard it is to get your hands on limited releases. And when you get down to that path, everything all leads to one one sort of in gate here. And that's the secondary market. 11:36 Yes. 11:38 Well, you start out and you're like excited, you know, you found the Weller, you know, Elijah Craig barrel proof. And then you're like, well, what else is there, and then you gotta get bored with the stuff that you can find, then you're like, then people inches, like you introduce me to the Facebook world. And like, I was like, Oh, my God. It's like a Pandora's box. And that's how I got introduced to dust ease and all the limitations, and it's like, it's the best thing that's ever happened. Yeah, and the worst thing 12:03 is the best, worst thing you know, and we'll we'll talk about, you know, really our guest, because he is he's really the ones that as kind of spearhead and really grown this movement. But you know, just on the topic of dusty, I remember getting into the secondary market. And this is this was like, early 2014 timeframe when I was introduced to it. And this is before I think even this group was around that that became the largest one, he had all these secret code name groups that you got into. And I remember seeing dusty, and people were paying like 100 bucks for some 1970s old grand, I bought an 86 Oh, granted for 75 bucks, like in 2015. I bought, like, I bought like three or four of them. And but I was looking at it back then I was like, What moron is I know. 12:49 There's a 999 sticker on it, like 12:54 10 towns that but now it's like, why didn't about all of them? 12:57 Oh, gosh, I'm sure we all have some of these stories. So let's go ahead and introduce our guests today. So our guest today was one of the founders or is one of the founders of the largest secondary group that's out there on Facebook. So Ellen Pao of bourbon secondary market, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Well, thank you for coming on. And you know, really kind of giving us a behind the scenes look of, of what really happens here. And, and just to make sure that everybody's clear, like, oh, it is not sitting here like advocating but he does this he kind of just operates a community. Right? And that's really what it is. And it doesn't matter if it was him or anybody else like this is going to thrive and exist no matter what, 13:35 no matter the channel no matter what. Absolutely. 13:38 So before we kind of dive into that, oh, and let's talk about kind of your past like how did you get into bourbon? How did you kind of find your way into into the scene? 13:49 See, I got into bourbon probably around seventh grade, just kind of like parents houses. 13:57 Usually people 13:59 get you're like, 14:01 like liquor cabinet. And, you know, us doing appreciate the corner. Yeah. But that was just, I mean, that's when I first got into it, then there was a pretty good time that I quit drinking it just because I had bad experience in high school and kind of just like, oh, not doing that. So it's usually when people have those 14:21 variances. And 14:22 then I guess freshman year in college, I worked at liquor barn in Lexington, and I was like, I'm gonna go out and get on, try and get back into this, you know, put it behind me got a bottle of Elijah Craig 18 for 50 bucks. It's like, I can't believe I'm spending this much. You know, went home had a party, we mixed it with Coke, you know, did shots of it just, it was, you know, one of those 1980 ones that were really good. Corey Putnam just chugs all the time. 14:54 And, you know, you look back and you're thinking like, Man, I wish I had that bottle of appreciation 14:58 anymore. You know, of course. The whole everybody looks at it, like a stock with they bought it when it first came out. Yeah, you know, but it is what it is. I 15:08 only bought Apple when it first came out. 15:11 Right? Yeah. $10 wouldn't, you know, but, uh, so and then, I guess, getting my education in hospitality, you know, I was managing restaurants and hotels, and in that kind of just the whole food and beverage thing just led me into spirits and naturally just 15:34 kind of evolved and got 15:36 naturally just start a secondary group. 15:40 I mean, we can get into that. And that that was a that was mostly because of back when you like we were talking about 2014. You heard of the group, she if you were in like bourbon info exchange, people will talk about it. But you got to know somebody to get in. I didn't know. I didn't know anything. You know, I was like, screw it. You know, I woke up at like, five in the morning Didn't you know, I was like, I couldn't get back to sleep. Like, I'm just I'm going to do it. Public, you know, all these secret groups. Why do you know why not? and it blew up. And I immediately became the guru and I didn't know it. People send me. They just assumed because I created this group. I knew everything. Yeah. So you know, they send a picture of this to me, what is this? How much is it worth? I have no idea. You know, like, Yeah, what is it? So all I do is Google. What is it? And I got educated, self educated on all the dust DS and fake it to every naked, you know? Yeah. I mean, I wanted to learn myself, I was intrigued by Why is, you know, why are people paying, you know, so? And then it just, it just kept getting bigger and bigger. And, you know, yeah, it didn't stop people rioted, that I let it be not secret, or, you know, and not bringing it to the forefront. And I think it did a lot. I mean, I think it affected the industry a good. 17:01 Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think I think that's what the secondary does. I mean, there's there's 17:05 brands that get like, totally thank the secondary model. Yeah, they're like, 17:09 I mean, yeah, I mean, it helps them evaluate exactly what they have in and maybe they start realizing everything's undervalued. Like, yeah, that was the that's probably the biggest thing. Communities had a huge impact on the black culture like do you think like old scout and like them county would ever be a thing without a bourbon secondary market? like it'd be tough to say yeah, I really would be it even be tougher to say that. Even would would group pics or store pics even have a place to be that are becoming that are, I guess you'd say sought after? Yeah. Because if you see something, and it's it's, it's got a group name on it, you're like, Oh, I immediately have that I've never seen it before. I remember for myself coming on to the secondary market with the first time. I remember seeing the Willett family estate bottles, just, you know, just the regular ones. And this is right as right as when the foil tops started taking over. So they're still wax ones in circulation. And I'm like, I've never seen these bottles before. I've never really seen them before. And so I'm I'm sitting there, I'm always going around the stores, trying to check them out. Trying to find these, you know, 10 910 14 year will family states. And I'm getting one in like Northern Kentucky. Like, I don't know, probably in late 2014, late early 2015 from the party source. But I didn't know like the whole entire time I could have just been driving to Bardstown. I mean, the whole time I could have been doing that. And so it was it was an edge. It's an educational experience as well for people that come into it. And just another education experience. I remember everybody's got their their Blanton story. You find Blanton's, you start learning about he learned about the letters in the horses in the bottle shape, and you come and trade with it. And then you learn out like, Oh my god, there's a barrel proof version. But you can't get the United States. How do I get my hands on it? 18:55 Like, how do you get a whole barrel on it? 19:00 It's exactly I mean, that's exactly like the the curiosity that gets sparked out of a community like this. So kind of talk about the hyper growth of what it was. And were there any kind of growing pains along with it. There were too many growing pains. It was just 19:20 occasionally we get to a point where like, I guess some of that some admins are like, Man, I'm having a baby now I don't have time for this. You know, I think it's kind of weird. Having admins leave because they they they really feel like they're getting noticed that a job. One of them like, Man, I've been trying to tell you this for a month now. 19:43 I don't care what kind of severance 19:45 do yeah, like, 19:47 I need an extra. 19:49 But uh, so yeah, it's only growing pains as as it got bigger. We just had to take on more admins. So what would you say you started start? 20 20:00 1415? And now how many about how many members are roughly? 20:04 About 35,000 35,000? 20:06 Yeah. 20:08 So do you have like a certain amount admins part? Thousand? Do you have like a like ratio 20:14 already have a certain amount of admins and time zones? Okay. That makes looking for West Coast because, you know, and then there's other things that we look for? What do they do during the day? Are you like a firefighter? Are you sitting in a firehouse for hours on end doing nothing but looking at Facebook or your hair? You know, really tech industry? Yeah. But, uh, so that's one of those are some of the things. And one of the things I told everybody, I was like, we don't want to hire anybody that actually comes to us and says they want to do it. Because then, you know, we actually did hire a guy that it you know, there's no wrong, you know, 20:57 some ulterior motive and, 20:59 and we there was, and but, you know, and it's just kind of a, you really got to be level headed, and most importantly, thick skin. Because if I mean, essentially, Europe, a boss of, I want to, I won't say it's a company, but I've, you know, you have to create these rules to keep the riffraff out. And then someone breaks one. And you're like, well, you broke the rules. Sorry, you got to go. But, and they've been drinking all night, and they're pissed. And then they, they've got to, you know, create a spoof accounts of your own Facebook or, you know, I had one admin leave because his kids were pictured him pictures of him and his kid were posted everywhere on their fake account, just like really, you know, sleazy stuff, but, I mean, it's, I mean, I kind of, I don't care what people say, doesn't bother me too much. You know, I just decided to keep doing what I'm doing. 21:57 Yeah, I mean, I guess it is tough. Because you're dealing in a market where these aren't, these aren't grandma's that are just knitting sweaters. Like these are, these are, these are, for the most part, a lot of grown men drink whiskey, and 22:11 it's an online bar, they have 22:13 seniors, and they have opinions. And they're very strong about them, too. And they 22:17 have a lot of liquid courage. That 22:20 in when you when you're behind the screen, and a keyboard that amplifies liquid courage is there's no repercussions really, except maybe a message back. 22:28 I mean, I've gotten into arguments online with people, you know, and then met them in person here. One guy, I, you know, he's his name will call him bow. And he came up here with Jamie from Lincoln Road, and we went to I went to a bourbon tasting that night and hung out with him. And you know, ha, mon, and I was like, Oh, hell, you know, me and him really got into it. And we went out drinking. I was playing Jamie and ping pong. He was cheering me on. He was all on my side. But the third bar was get to He's like, I go up to him. I was like, Can we bury this online hatchet, and he's like, Oh, we have a beef online. I was like, Yeah, he's like, what's your last name? I'm like, pow. Just started cousin. Oh. 23:16 Yeah, man. 23:19 God, I mean, he's a good guy. But so it's one of those things. It's like, Oh, they hate you. They hate you. But if you actually meet them in person, pretty much everybody's good people. But behind that keyboard, liquid current. Oh, yeah. FUFQFU. You know, you're the devil, you ruined bourbon. 23:34 Why do you think why do you think people do like have that animosity? I mean, it's and I know that you end up having to not post under your own personal accounts anymore. You do an inner page account to try and kind of hide and make sure the admins aren't aren't necessarily targeted anymore. So why is it that I mean, at this point, you are the godfather of the BSNV. Like that's, I think it's everybody love 23:59 that title, everybody. Hey, 24:01 everybody kind of understands your name. And when they see it, like, like, anytime it happens, like there's their posts, flurry that happens, but there's also some people that that hates you for no reason. Do you? Any idea? 24:13 I think it now, no, not really. I mean, I kind of see it as like, I know, I guess kind of the culture that everybody's gone through in the last six years of, you know, they don't care what they bought, you know, they've already made up their mind. They they're going to judge you for whatever it is that they think is true. And if they're presented with facts about the actual situation, you know, cognitive dissonance just goes in and they don't, you know, right ever, you know, yeah, I could be Mother Teresa. 24:51 You know, you ruin burden. If mother 24:53 teresa Rana face well, and when you're, 24:55 you're, you know, you're you're separated by a screen and you're not looking and talking to each. It really? Yeah, because you take the human element out of it is that you're like, you know, you can't it's if I'm sitting here Yeah, I'm not gonna yell at you for in person, but it might be a little easier. 25:12 Well, you know, I've never met you. I don't know you. I don't care. Right? Exactly. Yep, for sure. 25:21 So let's let's kind of talk about the rules a little bit because the one thing about bsm is that you're in compared to other groups like it's, it's a lot of like, no nonsense, like, this is what you're here for. You're here to buy bid. And that's it, like, no talk, no discussion. So kind of talk about the rules that that were in place and why they made them place like that. 25:42 So the the no discussions came up in a lot of rules were just formed by some of them sending me a pm saying, why don't you do this. And one of them was, I hate seeing discussions, when I'm only here to buy or look for something in particular. And the group's gotten so big, just, you got rid of it, I mean, then go somewhere else. And I was like, that's a great point, you know, bourbon or, or info, exchange, go there and talk about it. Here. We're one thing. So that's how that that happened. In a lot of the rules just were developed as we evolved. And just, I mean, people wanted it a certain way, it was mostly majority ruled on how things evolved, you know, from other groups and 26:26 stuff like that. And then you also have the secondary site that was doing kind of like raffles and all that sort of stuff. How did that sort of spin out and become its own separate thing? 26:38 saying basically, same thing, it's it's mucking up what a majority of people were there for. So it was like, we were just here for the bourbon, we want to buy it. That's what I want to I don't like gambling. I don't want you know, it's it's mucking up my area. So in the whole gambling thing, aspect, that's like a whole nother of great legal things that's going on. Doing a couple of things wrong there. And so I mean, that's that was just a separate it, you know, kind of 27:07 one of the first ones to do raffling different department. 27:10 I can't remember. I mean, I saw there was there was somebody in the community. I know that ran a group for a while he has since passed on. There not don't name names. Yeah, just for the sake of it. I mean, I remember it was red balls or whatever. Yeah, red balls or something like that. I forget. But there was there was there was those days and it I don't know like for I'll pass it to you guys. What would you rather do? Would you rather sit there and gamble on something or buy it outright if it's something you want? 27:40 Well, at first it was I won like my like first, like, like one out of 30. So I was like, This is amazing. Proceed to lose like 50 X in a row. And so then I quickly realized that let's just not a gamble. And let's just take the money that you would gamble and buy what you actually want and get it so it I'd rather much buy it now 28:02 then do it. I like I don't gamble at all with it. So I mean, I had no interest in in that help separate it too. And mostly the group ran it's the raffle group ran itself. And then people started getting crazy. We'll do a bottle bus was put in a bottle and then and then they're all gambling. So then they start someone owes someone a bottle, then they gamble with that bottle before it's even been shipped. And then it's like a cluster of who owns what where it was, you know, it's just like, so 28:34 it's it's kind of like I'm ready to double down. I didn't ever believe in those randomized. Like, I just still don't like mega ball ones. You know, it's like public knowledge. What's What's the number? Yeah. 28:47 So you were talking about just you know, who has what bottle and whatnot. I know that there are there's always disputes. kind of talk about what happens or how does the dispute come about sometimes? 29:03 A lot of times the biggest popcorn, 29:05 right. Explain popcorn to for people that don't understand that. 29:08 Yeah, remember? Yeah, explain. Because when I first saw you see like coronas and popcorn. And I'm like, What is all this mean? Like, yeah, go over the targets for the 29:17 words just means at the end of five minutes to go and your auction that you've created. If someone bids in that five minutes last five minutes, it extends the auction another five. And it just helps. You know, people are watching TV at home and 10 o'clock at night and they forget. Oh, someone did it. I can get in and you know, so it helped push it along and drive up the price but kind of stops that a little bit of the the eBay sniping kind of riots it does. You know if that happened, kindness, just Continental United State, cheap way to our easy way to say I'm paying for your shipping. I don't know where the the list of all the acronyms were created. came from somewhere before bsm came around and years before that. So you know there's I mean, those groups have been going around for 30:08 Yeah, I love the i's and T's and 30:11 GCS. Yeah, you gotta learn everything. That's I think that's, that's almost like a rite of passage we are getting into the bourbon world is that if you if you go to somebody and you start talking all this vernacular, and they don't understand that you're like, 30:24 welcome to the club. I think I won like an auction. And then I didn't realize what popcorn was. And somebody when I was like, wait a minute, I wanted it's time it went off, you know, but I didn't understand the rules. And it's kind of like read roll 13.0 and I was like, Oh, okay. Not this one in your videos. Another one. 30:41 I just discovered one. Last week, some South Carolina guys came up. And they were calling old Weller antique Ola. And I'm like, I've only heard it. Oh, da, I guess it's a, you know, different level. I've always heard of ODA, but apparently everywhere else they call it Oh, my God. You know, the vernacular, 31:01 it changes. That's for sure. Yep. So So kind of talking about what happens in a dispute, like what Ryan said, If there is, if there is something that somebody bids, but then somebody says like, nope, nope, it's over. Like, how, how does it when does an admin need to get involved in a situation? 31:18 Well, we wrote the rules. So hopefully, that they don't have to get an admin involved. But and they can people can will, you know, show the rules. It didn't, you didn't win it. Because here's the rule. It says, you know, after five minutes, it's over of no bidding. So, you know, you can check the timestamp of someone posting in that and determine if you actually did bit in time or not. So, I mean, things like that. If they're disputed, it might be well, the package says delivered, but it's not on my front porch, whereas Well, I know where it is. Someone stole it, you know, 31:54 who handles that part? 31:56 I mean, and you've even got the the drivers might steal it. I've had that happen. I know. You know, I was waiting for a package and excited that it was coming and got a notification that it was delivered in like, No, it wasn't, I'm literally by the front door. never showed up. So I bitter about that. FedEx. 32:13 Yeah. But I mean, is there is there a reason that admins have to step in the in a situation like that when a package is lost? Like 32:22 a? Not? Yes. Because usually the guy that ships it, they're responsible until it says delivered. And, or if it breaks during shipping, you know, the guy might open the package, and it's all busted. And he's like, Hey, this is broken, or the seal broke, and it's a collector's item, and I want it in mint condition. They'll they'll accuse, you know, the seller might accuse them of tampering with it, they just want a free bottle out of me or, you know, they're lying. This is bowl, you know, 32:54 Haven, they just have blue bears the liability and the Alicia Burton tell 32:58 if it's broken up, it's okay. You threw in, you know, three pieces of newspapers packing material, and it's broken, you know, come over here. Yeah, you know, and then a lot of the packaging suggestions that I gave actually came I used to work in a UPS hub one summer in Lexington. And I mean, I literally saw packages falling 30 feet concrete floor off these conveyor belts that get jammed up, and they just pack just are overflowing and just falling crashing down. So I was like, immediately, okay, I know how to pack a bottle from now, you know, you can't overpack in, you know, you really should you know it. Things like that happen all the time. So, it just, 33:39 I prefer their bottle packs their 33:42 wine wine bottle shipper things. 33:44 Yeah. Cool until I someone's like, showed me a bottle that they just, it kind of gives a false sense of security. Yeah. And they don't they don't throw anything else in there. And 33:54 well, y'all will have one of those in and then I put the popcorn around it or not popcorn, whatever. The styrofoam plate Stockholm, peanuts, peanuts. 34:02 Yeah. So in that situation, it's it's kind of it's up to the buyer to try to make it right. In a situation like that. Now, we've also seen it in some of the How 34:12 do you make it right, though? 34:13 Like, it's it's either reading under. 34:16 So if it's broken, it's refund the money if, if the tech strips broken world, it's kind of like you ask the buyer? Did you buy it to drink it? Or did you buy it to throw it on your massive wall? And, you know, whatever the answer is usually, okay. Well, then we take $50 for the, you know, crack seal, right? or something, you know, because 34:38 you're going to drink up to them to figure out the Yeah. 34:42 Yeah, we direct them to figure it out themselves got 34:45 you're not like the Better Business Bureau where they're like, they're like, have a dispute. And 34:50 you don't you don't have to resolve and 34:52 that's it. I was I was gonna think they're like a mediation court. You will, you know, like, you're going like husband and wife are going through divorce. Let's get together. No room real quick. 35:02 Yeah, I've had that quite a bit, actually. People add their wives to the group, and then immediately regret it. Because you know, their wives mad at them. They're always on their phone. wife gets in there sees how much they're spending on it, then it's like, well, you kick my wife out. Know that you got to do figure that out on your own. I'm not getting in the middle of that. And then divorces have come up. No way. Oh, yeah. Like, those wives know how much that collections worth. And you're getting into a divorce for whatever you did wrong, or whatever happened. That's, you know, needs to be split up. So then they want me to kick their wives out so they can let them know what they're selling or, you know, just like crazy. It's like, I'm not No, sorry. Sorry about your luck. you dug your hole. You know, that's my, my problem. Well, I didn't know that. There's a lot of that's something that I think about I think I 35:51 might add my wife to it because because being part of the podcast and I'm like, I gotta you gotta have a pulse on what's happening. So you know, exactly uninvite jacket. 36:03 I forgot she had it sees. 36:05 So I guess another thing is, you know, there's a, there's another thing that always happens, these groups that people call out other people, they'll say, you know, they'll tag and say like, Jimmy Joe, he's, he's a, he's a shifted, he's not he has a, you 36:19 know, good pair. 36:20 Well, I know that are like, I bought something. And then it's been two weeks, and he hasn't shipped it out. And he's not responding back to messages. Like, is that the right thing to do? Or is it like, 36:32 the worst thing to do? If If there's something going on, sometimes there's something actually happened, man, I've been in the hospital. That happens, it happened to me once and I had to take a picture of my armband and send it to do I'll ship your bottle out, it's just going to be a little while I don't know when. But uh, usually someone's if they might be scamming Omen or something like that. calling them out is the worst thing is he'll just piss them off. And if they have a conscience, and we're going to actually they messed up and they were actually having attention to get get you back, well, our refund you or something, calling them out, just ruined your chances. Best thing is to conduct admin and say, Hey, this is what's going on. And then we can reach up and I mean, I'll just send a message, Hey, yo, this bottle what's going on, you know, not a no accusations, I want to hear your side because a lot of times, there's, it's not their fault or something, you know, whatever. So, I mean, you do have to be diplomatic and not assume whatever you're being told is that the whole story and go to the other side. And most the time, it works out fine. And they solve the problem. Occasionally, someone just, you know, turned into a drug addict and is stealing or, you know, ripping people off. But we've done a good job of like letting people into the group, it tells you when like when someone tries to join the group, it tells you how pretty much everything where they where they live? Are they a member of any other groups that you're a member of? Are they friends with anybody? How windows? When did they create the Facebook page or in just all kinds of things? So if you're just created this in the last year, you're not getting? You know, if you're created the Facebook in the last two years? Why did you just create Facebook? And you know, all right. 38:30 around for a while, I know you're in your mid 30s? You 38:33 should know Yeah, exactly. So the and so we will have them prove their identity. Sometimes if their accounts really, you know, just send us a photo, a picture of your photo, Id block out all your pertinent information, we just need to see you actually who you are, you know, somebody that you're not afraid to. And now these days, you can if you have that information, just like a name and a city. You can find them on their address, every relative for free note, you know, not some search site, white pages. com. It's all 39:06 out there. So it's like LinkedIn work. So if you ever add accusations of counterfeits or frauds. 39:15 Hey, it's Kenny here and I want to tell you about the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. It will be happening on August 24. In Frankfort, Kentucky. It's called bourbon on the banks. You get to enjoy bourbon beer and wine from regional and national distilleries while you stroll the banks along the scenic Kentucky River. 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And there's been people that have done it that we just thought I like I went to this guy's house and got a bottle off of them. About a single project for 60 bucks or something. And house he's living in a $400,000 house in which in Louisville is pretty good sized house 30,000 square feet or so maybe bigger, nice part of town comes from a wealthy family, well known family. And you just wouldn't think he would be doing that. But I you know, who knows what motivates people to commit fraud? 41:45 So in a situation like that, where people have been wrongs, for say, like buying a buying a counterfeit on the page? Is there any? 41:57 Right? How does it How does it go about to try and make people whole or anything like that it's like, man like this is this is a black market, you get what you get immediate action from an admin is if that accusation is made, we immediately ban you, or stop you from being able to because we don't want to keep, you know, until we find out what's really going on. And there's been times where, yeah, I bought that. Yeah, I sold him that bottle. I got it from this guy who's also in the group in this transaction. And you can see me buying that tree. Yeah, and you know, and then it's like a, these bottles have been passed around for 10 people in the same group in three months. You know, 42:33 that's what I always say about the secondary, it's like, it all just stays in the group. Like, it's, it's like, we're all transferring and firing the same bottles. Like, it's funny how they pass around that. So 42:42 yeah, there's, I mean, there's some guys out there that do incredible work chasing these people down and finding out where the counterfeits are coming and how they're happening. And and 42:55 they're those five fighters or send on 42:58 Facebook every day. Well, I mean, it's just good that there's people like that, that they find enjoyment out of doing it, right. And they they either they find enjoyment, or it's maybe they're doing it to protect their own ass, because they do have a very large stake in bourbon. And they've got to make sure that what they have is still keeping its value as it goes. So two sides of that coin. Now, there's also times that we just talked about that people finagle people out of money. Somebody says buy it now you say sure sounds good. Take your PayPal, Facebook account deleted, I've got my money and run. What do you what do you do to help? Or is there a way to help those buyers either become whole? Or is it kind of like, Man, that's it? 43:41 Sorry? I'm hanging out with PayPal? 43:45 Is there a BSM community pool? where people are refunded like No, I mean, it's interrupt your own risk type of thing. I mean, there's not really a safeguard to protect you. And we tried to hope, prevent as much as we can by screening the people that come in there. But there's, I mean, there's an inherent risk, you're gonna, you have to assume when you go into it, yeah, especially, what's your legal recourse at that point to? Well, we're gonna go, you're gonna, you know, it's kind of like, tell me what, Wise Guys, you know, what are you gonna do about it? 44:19 You gotta kind of look at the history of you know, those trends, 44:22 right, and the whole vouching for what they're building? Yeah, I need a reference Jacqueline, this dude that, you know, yeah, that helps a lot. 44:30 In speaking of something like that, I just kind of thought of this to, you know, when you started this group, you also started in a way that was a lot different than others. Some other ones, like the old days, that's not around, which was BX people would go in there and they would post bottles, and you would, they wouldn't be transparent. It would say, like, you want to sip or you want to taste and that means it's for sale, or if it's for trade, and you would be post in the comments, or whatever it is, and everything what happened through PM, right? When when you built this site, it was almost completely opposite. It's like, full transparency, open market sort of thing. What was the idea of doing that versus kind of like keeping it behind these sort of like, secret code words? 45:15 One I didn't, I didn't know about the code words, because I wasn't able to get into those. And that's the whole reason it was created. And the whole transparency thing, you know, as like, after I started it, and it was starting to take off. I was like, What is Facebook's policy on this? So I found it. And it literally said, You must be at least 18 years old to buy alcohol, you know, sell alcohol and buy it on Facebook? And I'm just kind of scratching my head, okay. Oh, maybe they're just seeing it as an international company. And well, we're not really in it. And then it changed to 21 then it they said, Okay, now you can't do it. On marketplace, and now it's a at all so we'll see what happens. And I think I lot of that most recent changes, probably has to do with the legal trouble. Facebook and Zuckerberg or or in with the Justice Department and their his emails were leaked, and he might be in a lot of trouble. So I think Facebook legal team is just like, okay, no more chicken groups and gun groups, like, whatever, all these crazy little white, there's chicken group. There's like cockfighting and stuff. No, like, what are they like? Not heirloom. But, you know, crazy breeds of chickens that like rednecks are collecting that happened, really, but they don't they don't they don't let it pass for everything. I was like, I remember a secondary market like it like a like a Facebook 46:42 ad that said, like, find your people like there's there's groups for everybody. And I didn't know that. 46:48 So I just heard about that. Because I mean, when groups get shut down there, apparently there really is a history like a what Facebook normally does, and they take out the big one, and then they let it because all these groups, you know, all these little sub small groups, all those people are usually in the biggest group. So take out the biggest group and everyone will find out and maybe they'll go away or whatever. The term. Yeah, now I gotta roll down here. 47:17 I mean, in this also, like, I know, there was a huge opioid crisis that was happening through Facebook as well. I mean, there's people buy sell trade, you know, illegal drugs and stuff. I mean, those those groups go fast. But that's, that's sort of the way that the world works, I guess. And then so another way that those was a lot different from other groups as well. So there was another group that's it's still out there today. So I'm not going to put a name to it. But they always wanted to try and keep a record of, of transactions and sales, and it was all done online. And that's kind of what also fueled bottle Blue Book calm and everything like that. So kind of talk about why you said like, or just said, like, I'm not gonna, we'll just like, if you want to know, something, just research search it, right, instead of having to own a catalog or an Excel spreadsheet. 48:13 Yeah, it won't, I don't want to maintain it. Is 48:18 I mean, it doesn't pay anything to sit here and you know, play around on it. 48:21 Yeah. But the other thing is that also, you know, that that data was also used in some research studies to actually see how the prices of bourbon had been affected from years of just, you know, actually having a particular bottle and seeing how evaluated over the years, seeing how different types of bottles, you know, changed in value over the years. 48:43 Yeah, what was it like the average return was like, 200% on in, like, just a two year span? Something like that. Yeah, 48:50 it was crazy. I mean, some maintenance sucks. That's, 48:53 yeah, I just didn't want to spend time doing it. But in I felt like bottle blue, but does a really good job of you know, I don't I haven't been on there and years and but just because the history and in my group got so big, I didn't need to, and it was probably more current, because 49:09 you can search any, like thing, right? stir the group? 49:14 Yeah, if you can, if you can just run the search button and know you right, or exactly know how to filter. I mean, you can you can find pretty much anything but yeah, there was, I don't know really who's running pooper. So if somebody like us yet, there's another transaction and BSMNE to go and enter this NL 49:29 introduced into the toilet. Like, I'm always wondering, like Wikipedia, like, it's crowdfunding, like, Who the hell goes takes your time to fill out a Wikipedia page? You know, I'm 49:38 sure there's a lot of people out there. I mean, if you have a 49:41 if you have passion towards that topic, 49:43 exactly. I mean, I guess 49:45 it also has with Wikipedia, you get I mean, it's like a credibility and a point system, like, it says, you know, like Ryan Cecil did this, right? So so you get you get a little little badge or a star on your shoulder, I guess you could say, if you want to do that. 50:00 One thing I wanted to bring up and wild turkeys a good example. How the market affect your like, we hinted at it, but how the secondary market helps companies see where their brands going. I was doing a barrel pick at wild turkey several years ago. And I was talking to Eddie about the secondary market. He's like, yeah, I'm in that group. I love watching those bottles and what they sell for, you know, like, really, he's like, Yeah, and I got to thinking, I was like, you know, your name's not in my group. So he's under some, I don't know what he's under. But uh, and then I got to thinking about wild turkey in their high end premium brands that they release. They don't like, they don't work. They're out on the shelf at 350. And they might sit there for up to a year, but it'll finally all sell. He feel like they see these brands nudging up and know, okay, we put it out here, we'll be able to maximize our profits and smart business in my opinion, but 51:01 it is it is a way that companies can gauge what's happening. Yeah, I mean, it's, 51:07 it's totally, totally took off the secondary market to raise raise prices, both heaven hills doing it, everybody's doing it. They see the value? Well, it's the first ones that were like, all right. We don't image that. Yeah, 51:20 well, I mean, the other thing is, is when you look at just what these Facebook groups are able to do in general is is it not only just helps with value, but also helps with prediction of the changing consumer? Like what do what do all these people, what are they gravitating towards? I'm sure you can look at the stats that happens when you sell a pallet to a distributor, and that distributor gets it out to the the stores. But it's kind of hard to kind of track that data and you kind of hard to see like what people are saying about it, however, you go to an online forum. And you see some kind of like, let's take like Bill need honey, for example. Like, I saw honey, and I kind of like whatever, honey, 52:02 yeah, flavored whiskey, and then 52:04 and then all of a sudden, you know, in Nashville is a whole other thing. You get this whole group in Nashville that that seems to kind of create other little like a tornado of, of I don't know what you would call it, but somehow they're able to hype a lot of stuff up. And now bill need honey trades for like four or 500 bucks. And I'm like, how, how is this even possible? Because I wouldn't I wouldn't have find myself like particularly interested in it. But if you look at what the market does and what it's valued at, they're probably like, Oh, shit, we better add some more honey, these barrels, you know, I don't really know, like, that's a process. But it's a way that they can see they can gauge exactly what what consumers are gravitating towards. So yeah, for sure, another way to look at it. So there's a there's another kind of way to if we if we look at the the group that you had built as well, there's particularly one, maybe there's a few others of distilleries that you've banned from being inside the group, as well as like, these bottles are not allowed to be traded. You know, we don't need to give them a platform and say like, let's talk about who that is. But is there a reason why that you would go through and say, I think we need to put our foot down and we shouldn't have these type of bottles be on here or on my market? 53:18 Yeah, so one, we're bourbon secondary market. So we keep it it just whiskey. There, though, I guess one that everybody knows. And it's thinking about, we I, I was getting really pissed off at all the people that were thread shooting on, every time one of these bottles came up, as I got in, and they're just, I didn't even know what they were fighting over. I just got tired of hearing about it. And then I heard there might be market manipulation, and I was just like, screw it band. And then I heard about all these things coming out about someone going in and doing a barrel pic with the secret camera and, and trash cans and whatever. I was like, I didn't know that. And then of course, everybody assumed was that, you know, I was just tired of having to admin, my own group, like shutting people up. And people get in fights and yelling, and just like, We're not here for that, you know, it was just like, just ban it get rid of and then it 54:22 took off and 54:23 be like, what's your motive? 54:24 And then the gifts come out? Right? There's always the gift stream of how 54:30 but only wrong. There's a lot of funny pictures. Oh, yeah, 54:33 kids that are very creative. 54:37 If you can just like add some good laughs Oh, yeah. 54:41 So the other thing is, if we look at the time that's invested into this 54:47 time is time is very valuable time is very valuable to all of all we're 54:51 equal, let 54:52 it all have equal time and it's in it's in for I think a lot of people out there they take it, they take it for granted, the amount of time that you've probably invested into this group over over five years now. And last time I checked, you weren't collecting a paycheck from a warrior. Nope. So what what's the motivation behind going through it and continuing to do this without seeing any kind of upside, per se? 55:21 One, it's, it's a passionate hobby of mine and every other admin in there, there are some incentive or benefits to it. Like someone comes to town they know they know who you are, they know you live here. They want to hang out and share samples with you or bring you some samples or mail you samples. Get that all the time. You know, we don't even we don't pay for it. It's that nice and fun. But 55:50 I mean, there's no 55:53 it's really kind of easy, and especially if you're like working a job. So a lot of I used to manage a liquor store. A lot of time I'd be just it's just sitting there and doing nothing. I mean, it's shelves are stocked, okay, we're good. Now you're just waiting for customers, and it was a slower store. So get your phone out of time. A lot of time here, you know. So, I mean, what else am I going to do? You know, just watch cat videos are 56:21 still fun, but I'm more interested in bourbon. 56:25 Morrison getting yelled at? 56:26 Yeah, nice people in the area. 56:29 Yeah, start fights for out of nothing. It's a bourbon of all things. But just funny and amazing. Like how people getting arguments over bourbon. Like there's, there's just so much like, yeah, we'll get into heated debate, whether it's about a particular bottle or whether somebody prices some sex. Yeah, good question. What do you do in a situation where somebody accidentally prices something? We've seen it, we've seen it both ways. They'll say way to live got this happy? 15 I'm going to put a for sale for 2500. And then the laugh emoji start coming every day that's coming. What do you do in that sort of sense? You 57:06 know, there's, there's kind of a range of All right, I'm just gonna delete your post because you're an idiot, or you're just going to piss off everybody, you know, 2500 for whatever the bottle goes for now. You know, if it's $1,000 too much, you're probably going to get delete, because I know what's gonna. But if you You know, I've seen the opposite where Pappy 23 170 someone you know, 10 people Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben bit, you know, and then they want to hold 57:39 zero 57:40 exactly what was clear that you were not trying to short yourself that much money, you know, 57:44 yeah, so selling it below the cost of even retail, you 57:48 know, I'm not being that nice of a guy and you're being an asshole. So it's like, no, you're not getting your free bottle of Pappy basically. So. But yeah, I mean, so there's a if it's just if it's too much. I mean, I've seen it where it's like $100 too much and they're still losing it and it's then we do actually kind of manage it and just mute everybody. All right. You said something, you know you redshirted me your digital duct tape for three days? 58:14 Yeah. 58:15 Is there actually like a like a thing where you're like you're because I've never actually added a group before? Is there really a like a button that you can say like you're you're cut for 10 days or something? You didn't you're 58:26 just like three options? No way that's awesome. Three days seven days Really? Okay. And depending on how I feel that day, you 58:36 know, it's it's just progressively gotten worse. 58:38 seven day max punishment. 58:41 Alright, you didn't break like Facebook rolls so you're not out of the group, but come on. 58:46 And then there's there's the other side of this where there's somebody that posts like a mixers 20 for will say like 1000 bucks, right when that's easily an 1800 dollar bottle or 2000 or something like that. So what happens if they accidentally undervalue it? And it's not an obscene and it's not an obscene value like a they 59:09 they literally know. 59:12 we owed it to them. And usually when they realize like someone tells them you just lost $800 you could have had 1800 dollars or something whatever. They'll just disappear from the group by themselves you know 59:27 that that point is like no harm no foul like you're you're faster the trigger on their keyboard but that's about all we can give you right now. 59:33 Yeah, exactly. 59:36 And so sometimes hold people hold up themselves to the boat you know all right, honor it Damn it. I don't I don't want to but sometimes they swallow their pride 59:45 now hopefully somebody like returns something in their favor to or if they cry it opens them a sample or something like that that'd be old 59:52 least which is IRA karma. 59:54 That is true thing I mean, there's bourbon karma out there there's people talk about all the time you know, you have somebody find a bottle you ship somebody something you send them somebody a sample, hopefully the karma God's smile down on you and you go walk into middle of nowhere Oklahoma, you stumble upon an old dusty turkey or something, you know, like, that's the truth thing. Now, there was also I think it was maybe a few years back. It was around Christmas time in did the community come together and like by the admins, some, like some Van Winkle or something like that. 1:00:26 I remember that. Yeah, so that wasn't actually in my group. Oh, no, that's fine. So everybody wanted to Dave on the back for being a great admin and he got a bottle of Pappy 29 I didn't know about it. And someone saw that and was like, we should do it for Oh, and I'm like, No, just donate $20 to charity or something. Don't send me a bottle. That's not what I'm quit bother me. I'm done. I'm not trying to you know, I don't need a handout. Not that it was that I mean, but it until after the fact you 1:01:01 know, I just literally and then so kind of going back and looking at this whole thing of you know, in time is time is very valuable for for a lot of people as you start going down this path and in everybody's got careers outside of just bourbon least hopefully most your friends. I mean, well, I mean, I met outside of like flipping bourbon. Right? Right. So everybody's everybody's hopefully has some career and flipping bourbon just isn't it. But that's, that's what kind of go backwards or time is valuable. And you look at it, you say like I built up a network of 50,000 people? What if I was able to charge like $5 per person per year for dues in that would go towards? I don't know what it would go towards, like, if it is to like actually help with the time that value that spent or whether it goes into like an insurance bunker for 1:01:51 bottles? How many people don't think is instantly enough? Sorry, charging depends now and how many active out of 50 that would even know that are? 1:02:00 can probably see that data. But the thing is that would that setting could only work off of Facebook. And so when Facebook bands up, you know, kicks every all of it off the Facebook, that might actually happen. Not necessarily for me. I don't want to do it anymore. But it might I mean, it might be a good vessel. But the problem with that is everybody loves to get up their phone. Look, I mean, me, I don't say they love it, but they do it. They get out their phone, they start scrolling through Facebook, they see grandma, they see someone else's kid. Yeah, I see bourbon in usually my newsfeed that's the only way. I just see bourbon bourbon bourbon. And I'm sure a lot of y'all can. 1:02:45 That's the only reason I keep Facebook Like I loved it when you could only have the group app. And you didn't have to have the Facebook app you could just do. And then they made everything go to the Facebook app. And it was like, you could just totally keep your cool. Yeah, it's 1:02:59 so good. 1:03:01 People off of loan to a whole nother website. It's going to be a challenge. And so setting that up. That's a lot of work. And I mean, you better have some really good reason for people to go there, you know, and how you got to make it worth their while to go there. 1:03:19 Yeah, that's true. I mean, it is it is hard to try and monetize a platform like 1:03:23 this, because it's the path of least resistance you don't face because people are already there. 1:03:28 It's against Facebook rules to actually try that or do that. 1:03:32 No, well, you can't export the group lists, like on the spreadsheet. 1:03:36 You can everyone move over? Well, 1:03:39 knowing that then I guess that rules that out? Yeah, I was just trying to think of a way that you know, you could you could try to try to, you know, make it worth the time. That's that's actually invested. But it sounds like it because granted this This is by far the biggest group. But it is not the only group. I mean, there's probably I mean, there's got to be upwards of hundreds now. Not only just just markets where you can buy sell trade, but there's local markets, we can buy sell trade. I mean, there's there's level ones, there's Lexington ones, there's ones in Ohio, and so forth. So I guess if if you try to do that, like people just go elsewhere. You know, there's always there's always somewhere else to 1:04:18 go when you for that. 1:04:21 So I mean, the other thing we kind of look at is is how these have grown? is there is there going to be a way that one day that you're going to kind of see this is like do you think it one day could all possibly in on Facebook? or? Yeah, yeah, for sure. 1:04:39 And quite honestly, I'll be honest, it's already the market has gotten so big, that it is going to go quote, legal. Since DC can buy straight from collectors, you know, like jack rose does. distributors can do it. New York, you can do it. There, this is going, you know, it's like, you know, what is it? How much money does a distributor need to take to? You know, do this all legally from? Not you know, and if, when if and when it gets all shut down on Facebook? That whole? I mean, it's it's coming, I could say that, I would think because it it's already evolving here in Kentucky with us being able to sell to liquor stores and bars just straight up, take this bottle right in and I want to sell you this much, you know. So, I mean, 1:05:40 I don't know, I mean, there, I think there's always going to be a need for a peer to peer distribution system. I mean, if even just think of like just clothes. And people sell clothes on Craigslist, they don't always want to go to a consignment shop or something like even though a consignment shop exists, but you're going to get more money for it if you put the time and the effort where to go. And like do you 1:06:01 want to say we 1:06:03 were just cars in general? Yeah, sell a car. You can you can go and you can try to put on your own marketplace versus just going to the dealership and saying, Give me you know, 40% less than. Right, 1:06:15 right? Because that's typically what happens. Yeah. No, I totally agree. Cuz I mean, 1:06:23 I don't even know where I was going with that. 1:06:26 Whiskey get into No, not yet. I was just, I kind of blanked. 1:06:30 Yeah. 1:06:30 Well, I mean, this was, this was a really good conversation. And I think it was, it was it was really a true testament to kind of see exactly the thought process behind it really the growth. A bunch of the crap you have to deal with, like, I'm like, I think that, that people need to give admins a break every once in a while. Like there's there's just so much stuff that probably happens behind closed doors that everybody just doesn't see. Yeah. I mean, I know you all probably have your own messaged threads of trying to figure out like, what do we do about this, and there's, there's got to be an issue every single day. 1:07:06 Every single day, there needs to be a national admin day. 1:07:11 Where you just support and thank your admin. Exactly. But maybe you do have like national Secretary David Rogers combined together, 1:07:18 whatever it is, and 1:07:19 that's where I was going early. 1:07:20 There you go. And, and so remember that for next year. But like I said, I think everybody kind of owes a lot of what you do as a great debt at great debt of gratitude, because of not only just, as I mentioned, just the crap that goes on and having to monitor and manage it, but for the culture that adults Yeah, you know, we hadn't mentioned it, it really does. It sets the precedent for the market. And not just the secondary market, but the actual market. Right. And so it's, it's huge. 1:07:50 Yeah, and it it just, for me, personally, it provides such enjoyment. Like, I can't tell me like Thompson on throne or just, you know, laying around scrolling through bourbon, or just seeing what's going on, you know, like seeing what's going on the market seeing the funny pose that funny out outrages, you know, it's like Pinterest definitely improved the quality of life. So thank you 1:08:13 for that. And and then you also see a few different things. You know, like I said, for your own personal education, you learn what bottles are out. Yeah. You learn who the biggest ballers in the, 1:08:25 in the bourbon world don't even know who blonde brothers was. You know, like, 1:08:30 What do you mean, when I say ballers, like you see people that post like epic bottles, and you're like, Holy smokes, or these people that they'll post like 20 bottles and a lot and they'll say like, it's $10,000. And somebody's like, buy it now you're like, holy shit, that guy just spent, 1:08:44 like you see, like those Eagle rare 17. And they're like, 38 people that are like, Whoa, I didn't think this existed. 1:08:53 Exactly. So it's definitely cool of not only that, and it's building community around it. So thank you so much for kind of coming today and explaining that. But I also know and give you kind of an opportunity to talk about sort of the next venture that you're going on, if you want to kind of give people kind of a heads up on on that. 1:09:10 And yeah, I'm happy, happy to do that. So I being in this doing all this, I've gotten to meet so many people in the industry, just liquor store owners, bar owners, just bar managers, bartenders. And it just, it spawned out other businesses that I didn't see ever happening. And one of them is I've started my own brand. And I've sourcing barrels going to be putting it out. Part of why I won't be you know, need to focus on that is not admitting because I don't want to sitting at home all day playing on my phone. 1:09:53 So yeah, that's coming out. 1:09:56 I've got some samples here for you, I want you to try some, one of the things I'm doing is my first batch will be single barrel proof, then I'm going to have a say that's the mid tier, then a small batch that hopefully I can get to the point where I'm buying tons of barrels and mass distributing that. And then there's one that I'm calling exceptional and rare and through these people that I've met in the industry, it's surprised, you know, everybody's like, Oh, well, there's 23 year old barrels out there. But you know, you better be happy if you want them or Evan Williams if you want them but there's other you know, younger ones that are out there they just really hard to get and you got to know the right people and I think hopefully I can get to them got some samples that I might be able to get. So I want you to try but 1:10:44 we'll definitely do that after we wrap up here. But you know, we want to say again you know good luck on the next adventure you know the the time and effort that went into building and managing among this group and then kind of shepherding it on to the next generation of admins you know it there was a lot of times that was invested to it so I think everybody kind of 1:11:03 debt of gratitude when it comes down to it. 1:11:05 You're welcome. 1:11:08 I know there's people out there that don't agree with it. 1:11:10 Yeah. Well, I mean, of course like I always get into the show saying like if people want to learn more about you can they do it but it's gonna be on Facebook, wouldn't it? 1:11:19 Go like from Creek bourbon? 1:11:21 Yeah, there you go. Like Fern Creek Byron. Love the label. It's awesome. You're welcome. 1:11:26 did not create it. Yeah. 1:11:29 So make sure you go and you check that out and make sure you follow us bourbon pursuit on all the social medias, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And if you like what you hear you want to be a part of our community where we don't buy sell trade however we talk about it we get our own barrel pics. We've got cool swag. We do all kinds of shit like there, but it's it's fun. Go check it out. patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit, or anyone can close it out 1:11:49 there. Yeah. Thanks, Ellen. Man, that was awesome. Appreciate the studio space. We got a legit studio here if you're watching on film, but uh, no. Super cool stuff. Like I said, I've wasted a lot of time on your site. So thank you for that form of entertainment. And then you're 1:12:06 welcome. I think you're welcome to come back in our studio here. And also record anytime as long as I mean, come as long as 1:12:13 you keep bringing wild turkey 13. 1:12:16 We're in every time. Good cases. 1:12:19 Yeah, but everyone listening, please let us know what you think. give us feedback, show suggestions, comments. We'd love hearing from you all because this is we do it for you. And so let us know how we're doing and how we can make the show better. And with that, we'll see you next time. Cheers. Cheers. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
1 Aug 2019
226 - EXCLUSIVE: Confessions of a Bourbon Counterfeiter
In this Bourbon Pursuit exclusive, listen to a story from an admitted bourbon counterfeiter. This episode dives into the motives, operation, and recourse of a bourbon counterfeiter. Listen to how an addiction contributed to a cycle of refilling empty bottles and reselling them on the secondary markets and the ultimate price he had to pay. We hope this interview will serve as a lesson for not only folks connected with these circles, but also for whiskey producers to implement new packaging to protect their consumers. DISCLOSURE: As a part of the agreement to come on the show, we are not revealing the identity of our guest as he wishes to remain anonymous. Any comments regarding the guest’s name will be deleted and anything shared is not factual and is considered libel. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/pursuespirits. Barrell Craft Spirits has a national single barrel program. Ask your local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about online alcohol sales. How did you get into the bourbon market? When did you start thinking about counterfeiting? What made it easy to counterfeit? Why aren't you in jail? How were you caught? What happened when you got caught by the community? Why did you not turn yourself in? Did you feel remorse or just bad because you got caught? How many counterfeit bottles did you create? How long have you been selling counterfeits? Did you ever counterfeit a Van Winkle? What was the fall out after you were caught? What kind of threatening phone calls did you receive? What was it like facing your family? Are you still with your wife? How can someone spot a fake? What did you refill with? Now that some time has passed, how are things going? Did you ever talk to any other counterfeiters? Did you consider it fun? Did you need the money? Are you starting to move on? Have your parents been able to look past the situation? How much revenue did you make? How were your kids affected? What would you say to someone thinking about counterfeiting? What did your friends think? What if you didn't get caught? Would it be worth the money? Would you ever try to counterfeit again? 0:00 Everybody Are you interested in looking at the distilling process and pairing that with key business knowledge such as finance, marketing and operations, then you should check out the online distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. It's an online program. It can be completed in as little as 15 weeks. It's taught by both of you have all business faculty and corporate fellows. So you're getting real experience from real experts at the most renowned distilleries, companies and startups in the distilling industry. all that's required is a bachelor's degree, go to U of l.me. Slash pursue spirits. 0:34 There is no amount of money that is worth everything that you go through. There isn't. And I say that with extreme confidence. It's not worth it. 0:55 All right, everybody, it is Episode 226 of bourbon pursuit. sued. And we don't have a whole lot of bourbon news to kind of cover. So we'll just kind of give you some updates on what's been happening with inside the ecosystem. And last week was what was considered the great Buffalo Trace barrel frenzy. We talked about on the show with Bo Beckman at Buffalo Trace about how there are barrels that are allocated for the general public that can get access to him. And now as you can imagine, there are thousands and thousands of people going after just a handful of barrels, and you knew it was going to be an intense few moments as soon as it went online. But there was a huge feeling defeat felt across the entire bourbon landscape. When people logged in and within the matter of one second, every single barrel was gone. Yet, persistence paid off and with the help of our Patreon community bourbon pursuit was able to capture to Buffalo Trace barrels and a 1792 foolproof, so we're looking forward to bringing those to our community in 2020. Now speaking of barrel selections, we're out at four roses today, selecting our final They're all from there for 2019. That's going to be five barrels from four roses this year. And we're always humbled and thankful for the opportunity to go and bring our Patreon community members along with us. So thanks to four roses for always being so accommodating and awesome. And a huge shout out to keg and bottle out of San Diego for being our retail partner who makes all this possible. Make sure you go and check them out online at keg and bottle calm that's keg the letter in bottle.com. And you can get whiskey shipped right to your doorstep. And now for some quick history. November 4 celebrated the birth of Isaac wolf Bernheim Born in 1848 Bernheim was a Kentucky businessman who helped cement Louisville as a center for the bourbon industry. Today, heaven Hill bears the name of this American whiskey pioneer on their Bernheim original wheat whiskey as well as on the Bernheim distillery that's located in Louisville, Kentucky. All right now on to today's podcast. Be fair, this isn't our usual light hearted cells. In fact, it gets very intense very quickly. So if you're hoping to listen today and get a few laughs, sure, you're not really going to get any. But if you are a first time listener, please go back and make sure you listen to some of our other episodes because you'll get a feel about how our typical feeling and how we really run an episode is around here. But this episode is really here to serve a lesson for all those out there who dare to venture down this road. We all know that counterfeits exist. And it's actually really hard to tell a difference if they're good enough. And what the new vintage laws in Kentucky and even other states like Washington DC, that can buy bottles from consumers and sell them in retail stores. It means that even buying your bottles from retail stores isn't safe either. So if you're out there and you're looking for high end bourbon and you're willing to drop a lot of money, you really need to look after yourself. I hope this podcast is kind of a wake up call to a lot of the 3:59 producers out there that have highly allocated products on the market. Many enthusiasts believe that it's time to start implementing some form of anti tampering mechanisms or something that can be done with the packaging to start preventing counterfeits, and this podcast should spark some of those conversations of not only what happens when you're caught up in some of these counterfeit rings, but what can you as a producer do to start protecting your consumers? If you're interested in other podcasts that we've released, they're all organized on our website by distillery, bourbon, one on one series and lots more. Go check it out at bourbon pursuit.com. Here's a quick message from Joe over a barrell bourbon, and then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 4:45 Hi, this is Joe Beatrice from barrell bourbon. I know I talk a lot about blending here, but we also have a national single barrel program. ask you a local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. Find out more at barrell bourbon, com 5:00 Fred Minnick, and this is above the char, the secondary market as we once knew it is gone, you can no longer go on to a Facebook group and actively trade or buy from someone three states away. There's no getting it back either. And let me tell you why. Because nearly every Attorney General in the United States of America has band together to try and end the secondary market on eBay, Craigslist, Facebook in other places. In a recent letter, a coalition of 46 State Attorney General's asked companies and their respective states to review their current postings for online alcohol sales, ask them to remove illegal postings and develop programming to actually develop programming on their own dime to blog and prevent users from violating state alcohol laws. Now here is a quote from the Attorney General for the state of Oklahoma, Mike Hunter. He says this isn't about violating state laws. It's about protecting the health and well being of Oklahomans illegally sold alcohol thought state licensing laws that ensure the substances aren't tainted and are coming from a reputable vendor. The substances being sold illegally could originate anywhere and could contain deadly substances like methanol, as we work with Facebook, Craigslist and eBay to crack down on the issue. I am encouraging Oklahomans to use extreme caution when purchasing alcohol online and quote, and notice that he used the word online versus secondary social media groups. because let me tell you what this really is. This is a defense of the three tier system. This is the three tier system rising up and saying we don't want online alcohol sales. You seen the likes of drunk minibar, the spirits network and other entities try and make this work. The entire world is moving to online sales. And yet alcohol wants to remain like it's in the 1950s. Now, I have no issues with walking into your local liquor store and buying something. But we have got to move forward into the future. This is no longer 1995. And this is the same group that took down the tobacco industry. And now they're trying to block any kind of online mechanism to sell alcohol. Now what we had going in this in the secondary groups on Facebook, those were, let's say, developed for hobbyists, they don't want that either. So if you are if you live in Maine or Vermont, or one of these other states and you don't get a good allocation of bourbon and you have a buddy in Kentucky or Texas that you want to work with to get a bottle Well, good luck because the United States of America does not wants you to have that. So think about that when you're going to vote for that next state election, bring this up as an issue, see where they stand with alcohol shipping. Most states don't allow it. Most states don't want it because the distributors in those respective states wants to keep a money in their nest egg. Now, I don't sell. I don't buy from people I don't know or liquor stores that I'm not familiar with. But that's not to say that it should be that I believe it should be illegal for someone in Hawaii or Maine or wherever to work with someone in Texas to buy a bottle they can't get in their respective state. But that's the future. The future is going back to the old guard and these attorney generals are leading the charge just like they did against the tobacco industry. Someone's got to stand up to him. Who is it going to be? Might as well be us. If you You want to if you want alcohol shipping in your state, right, your representative, if you want to see Amazon drizzly or mini bar or the spirits network to be able to succeed and to offer you a product that you cannot go and get in your local liquor store, then fight for it. Because that is the only way it's going to happen and no one will listen to us unless you say something. So fight. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Instagram or Twitter. And by the way, did you know I now have a YouTube channel? look me up on YouTube? search my name Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers. 9:46 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny Ryan and Fred together again today. Usually open it up with something light and something airy in today's a little bit different because this is something that has Been a topic that is always been a worrisome issue inside of the the bourbon market inside of the high end really the high end bourbon market as well as Do you know what you're buying? You know, we've we all know that there's online forums, there's, there's websites, there's all kinds of places to go and get allocated whiskey. However, you never ultimately know the source unless you're usually buying it directly from a retail knowing that it got there on the day of delivery happen. It's it's even, it's even hard to even find from retailers nowadays. But when we start going down this path, we start looking at the counterfeit side, is it out there? Does it happen? And of course it does. And that's the that's the truth and the sad reality of what is out there. However, today's episode is really going to expand on that even more to kind of look at what is the harsh reality of somebody that does this and gets caught? 10:55 Yeah, I mean, the the bourbon community is all built on trust, you know, and like We've all had that when we buy bottled like my wife thought I was absolutely crazy just buying random bottles from random people and you know, it was built on trust. So it's, you know, that's something that we don't take lightly. And you know that Yeah, I'm hoping today will be an enlightenment and indeterminate you know, from it happening again, but hopefully enlightened some people to to know what's out there and just, you know, be on your guard for it as well. 11:22 And our guests has informed us that he is under legal scrutiny. And I think a lot of people listening would think you should be in jail. People who commit these kinds of frauds and wine are spinning up to 30 years in jail right now. So I don't know what the status of your legal problems are. But, you know, the fact you're sitting with us tells me that you, you care enough to sit down with us but I want to tell you something We don't feel sorry for you. No one's going to feel sorry for you. Most people listening are going to want you to be in jail. And the only reason why you're on here, the only reason why I agreed with Kenny and Ryan, to have you on here. We're so that we could possibly prevent this from happening again. And I look at this, as it was kind of we discussed previously, like this is the ex con come into sixth grade, telling us to not steal a car, because you'll end up like me. So 12:42 that's what I have to say. 12:43 Absolutely. And so we're going to keep everything anonymous as much as we can, because of the really the severity of the situation. And we don't want to implicate any parties involved. So we're going to be referring to the person that's joining us today as john about as generic as I can. Get. So john, thank you so much for joining us today giving us a little glimpse into really where this happened and kind of and how it sort of spiraled out of control. So kind of talk about first your introduction into like the bourbon market. Was it something that you saw as you actually enjoyed bourbon? Or was it something that you saw as an opportunity for for business isn't like a flipping game or something like that? 13:28 Well, I do enjoy bourbon. And when I got involved in groups, it was on a very low scale, but it ended up to where I was selling quite a few a bit or bottles so it ended up being more of a business type. Not a business where I as I quit my other jobs or anything, but it was a strong hobby to where, you know, I enjoyed, you know, buying and selling bourbon so and I kept up with it quite a bit. So it left for me liking it to longer I got into it, me selling more and more by 14:00 Yeah, it was kind of like, I mean, is it like a drug or a habit? You can't quit like, it's an easy way to I mean, let me wrong like a lot of people flip bottles and they go and do it. You got you get a well or 12 and 40 bucks you sell it for 140 it's, it's an easy it's an easy bedroom and outside that's a very good way to put it. 14:16 It really is. 14:17 Yeah. And I guess if you can scale the operation it makes sense to so kind of talk about the next evolution of it. I mean, was it was it the ability that you know that because you were in these groups for a while, so you kind of understood the dynamic of of how the the bourbon in the secondary the gray market really works? And what was the kind of the phase that that took it to that next step where you started looking at, okay, maybe I could actually counterfeit stuff. 14:50 I guess maybe for some people that it could be easily done. And that's the problem with it is some of these bottles that can be it can be easily done and And that's what really, I guess started on this so easy, you know, no one will ever know. And and that's what kind of started really right then in there. 15:12 What were some of the things that you thought made it were easy just like how the products are labeled or sealed or? 15:18 Yes, the ceiling. Gotcha. Correct. Exactly. And not on all bottles just on certain ones particular like guys. Oh, 15:24 yeah, yeah. Why are you? 15:28 Why are you in jail? 15:31 That's a good question. 15:35 I guess I don't really have an answer for that exactly. on why I'm not. I'm not saying I shouldn't be. 15:42 turn yourself in. Did you speak with cops? No, 15:47 no, I've never spoken with cops. 15:50 So when you were when you were caught? 15:54 Who you are caught by someone within the community? 15:57 Yes, that's correct. 15:58 I mean, that's That's kind of normal that we've seen. I mean, that says, there's there's teams of people out there that do they take inventory of Van Winkle lot numbers on Pappy 23 is they look at inventory of of those things. And it gets kind of kind of talking about the day or that progression that happened when you got caught. Did you remember what that looked like? Or how that I guess you could say that the chips started falling. There was a couple bottles in a row. I think that looks suspicious. That led back to me, and that raise some concern. And that's how it all started. That's when they start I guess maybe investigating as far as like previous sales of that. Now, so you know quite a bit of bottles in the past. And of course, the problem with that is is that any bottle that ever sold, that raised concern as to where all the models so you know, we're fraudulent. 16:56 So 16:58 So when when you When you were caught, yes. did it become public in our communities? Yes. At that point, why did you not turn yourself into the authorities? 17:10 I guess I was just trying to stay as low key as possible. I was a nervous wreck at the time. First time, I was really been in trouble. I really didn't know what to do. You know, I mean, I really didn't. I was a total loss as to what to do. I was kind of honestly taking a lot of the People's advice that caught me, and I'll be honest, they got me through a lot. 17:36 So the people who caught you who helped you? 17:39 Yes. Who because I helped me and also because I did refund money, you know, to the people that got fraudulent bottles. So and I went through each bottle with them, and told them which ones were and which ones where do you 17:53 think it was a like an immediate feeling of remorse or was it like, I just feel really bad that I got caught? At least when it first started, like, I know, I know, we can progress until today because it's been it's been years since then. But when the days first started when, you know, the messages started coming, the email started coming. I mean, was it kind of like everything's starting to really kind of spiral out of control that point? Oh, 18:20 yes. Very quickly starts falling out of control. Yes. Without a doubt it If 18:26 so, talk about some of the the effects that you kind of saw on the very, very first days because we all know that online communities are they're very bullish right I mean, that's that's just the the nature of what it is anybody can hide behind a keyboard and say a lot of stuff. And the same exact time people can do damage to online reputations are very, very quickly so so kind of talk about what that that process was when I first started mounting messages that how to receive threatening messages whether their bottles were real or not. was, was unbelievable. I mean, I received tons of messages. And actually, a lot of the people that were doing, believe it or not the most complaining and threats or, or people that have never even so from in the past, because I guess you're kind of selling from like a community, you know, I'm just one person, it's the whole community that goes goes out after you. And so it doesn't matter if I had sold to them or not I was getting 19:27 whether it be threats, messages, phone calls, whatever you from 19:32 everybody. I mean, you know, 19:35 I mean, you essentially took what was this beautiful hobby, and something that we all enjoyed, and you took advantage of people. You took advantage of people. So I mean, in this day and age, of course, you're going to get a lot of commentary for people who didn't. Absolutely, absolutely. So I mean, did you want me What did you expect? I 19:57 did expect it you know, because I had so So many bottles in the past. Now, again, I didn't really know totally what to expect, but I figured I'd be getting quite a few messages. I didn't know to what degree and it came in at a large degree that not that I had thought to be honest with you. But again, I, I didn't know exactly what to expect. I just didn't. 20:19 Do you remember, the amount of the quantity of kind of counterfeit bottles that you had created? 20:25 The exact amount? 20:26 I mean, not the exact amount, but I mean, some sort of round about number, you know, it was probably around 20:32 3435, something like that. But the amount of inquiries that I got, were, well over two to 300. 20:41 How long have you been? How long you been selling before the counterfeits? Oh, at least 20:47 two, maybe three years. 20:49 And so you kind of build up? I would say two to three, you built up a level of trust with buyers and that's 20:54 why I entered the community. That's correct. Yes. And that was the hardest thing for me. 20:58 Yeah. It really was. Even if you sold one fake bottle 200 messages is nothing 21:05 is in I mean, you know, all it takes is one. I mean, all it takes is one for you to destroy the trust, you know, and I mean, it can be 10 2100 but I mean, if it's just that one, it doesn't matter, you've broken all that trust. So it's not even worth doing why it's not because it goes back to what I said. Then every other body so people are going to raise the red flag rightfully so as to whether the bottle was real or not. So 21:31 I think one thing our listeners be interested in, was it ever was it ever a van Winkle bottle? But do you ever counterfeit? No, 21:38 no, no, I never. I never did like the high end bottles like two to three. No, no. 21:45 You figure like I'm just trying to think of it from a like a mind aspect you might have gone through that you stick in somewhere like in the middle of the road. Something with like, clear pair of film or clear things that are 21:56 easy to model was like, you know, maybe 340 Hundred average, but I never did the high end stuff. 22:04 So, I'm with you on that. Okay. So I guess let's let's kind of progress it on a little bit now. You know, we've we've harped on a little bit of kind of where it started. In the days that it started happening, kind of talk about a few of the weeks following from there. Because, you know, when, when news surfaces, something like this, it immediately becomes a huge issue with inside of the community. And people are always talking about it. And I'm assuming that in the weeks following, there were more inquiries more emails, that kind of kind of also talked about not only just the emails and inquiries, but like, damage caused to like anything else that was surrounded by you, whether it's a family or anything like that kind of talk about those short term impact that happened. Well, I mean, my business suffered absolutely tremendously from it. 23:00 My family received threatened phone calls. The office that I worked at they received threatening phone calls because obviously in this day and age, you can google someone and find out pretty much anyone about them. So what's a threatening phone call? What did they say? I had some people threatening, you know, come down to be mass, you know, near my wife received many threatening calls as well. messages as well. My officers did the same thing. In that went on for quite some time. And that was very difficult. Because I wasn't the only one affected at that point. It was the people that surrounded me, not just family, but even friends. 23:36 What was it like facing your family net, having them know that what you had done? I was 23:42 the hardest thing ever? Yeah, the hardest thing I've ever done, and I would never want to go through that again. 23:48 Are you still with your wife? 23:49 I am. I am. Luckily, I mean, she stood by my side. I'm very fortunate for that. Yes, I am. 23:58 cause problems 24:00 The business suffered tremendously. I really did. And the bad thing is it wasn't just for me. It was for other people that I worked with. And that was the hardest thing because they weren't involved in this whatsoever. And that was very difficult, very difficult. 24:15 So, beyond that, you know, we talked about a business suffering, you know, businesses, they, 24:22 you know, a family can build something and it can be generational. However, sometimes you can rebuild a business, kind of talk about your family at this point, as Ryan kind of alluded to, and must been hard to face them but what was what was their initial reaction? What was their thought process of like, how do we remedy this situation? What What kind of advice do they give you? 24:47 Well, first of all, to cut to come clean. Admit when I did and they try to remediate as best as possible by coming cleaning back, coming forward and paying back anybody that received a different view. Which I did, you know, and that took some time to go through everything because we went through each individual one and and that's the process that we started with. 25:08 So So where was everybody defrauded? Like hundred percent paid in full kind of? 25:13 Yes, that's correct, yes. But they receive so many inquiries because, you know, there were other bottles that I saw that you know, the more legitimate but people were still asking and rightfully so. 25:23 So you understand how it's difficult to believe that you refunded 100% Yes, I do, given because we have no we have no way to validate that. 25:38 What they did was they went to eBay where I got the models and they went through all the accounts, and we went through each bottle individually from them on what I purchased. 25:52 eBay was eBay was the following where you 25:55 access to my accounts, I can passwords and everything. 25:58 So it was eBay your own source of acquiring empty bottles 26:02 yes 26:03 it was so I guess that kind of always goes back to the message we always say to a never sell empty bottles on eBay because this is this is this is this is reality that's another thing I did to any open bottles that I had it took a video and you know broke every single one of them 26:22 which was quite a few and I went and took a video and broke the law so 26:27 after you were caught that's correct 26:28 yes afterwards 26:32 so what would you say to someone like it to I guess to for them to check their purchases like what is it what are some like easy signs that someone can like tell a fake not just from tracing it back to an eBay sale but maybe like if they're looking at seals or anything like what's what's some designs that like Something's fishy or I would say maybe the color 26:54 will be one. The color of the vibrancy if it matches the probably the best thing because Some of them, it would be hard to tell on the seal. So just really would be, but the color would be the number one thing that I would say. 27:09 without tasting it. I'm saying, 27:10 you know, Ryan, I've spot a lot. I've spotted a lot of fakes my career. In fact, you know, I validate a lot of older bottles and, and unfortunately, 27:21 john is not a good person to ask how to spot a fake because as soon as he's the guy who has been counterfeiting, and as soon as that heats out his words out there on the street of like, how you spot it, you know, the other ones trying to fix it. Yeah, and that's the problem with counterfeiting. It's a fucking virus. You were bourbon fraud one point now. Now we're a bourbon fraud 3.0 and like, what you were doing that completely discounted now to like how to catch something because everyone's everyone done it, but you did it. And I still, I still have not felt the remorse. I hear that like this happened. And that happened. I hear a lot of regrets. But you took away a community's innocence and a lot of ways. I mean, sure, we could have all assumed that this stuff was happening. But you did it. And I still don't feel like I hear the remorse from you. 28:26 You know, the hardest thing for me was I built up a lot of trust and all that within those groups. And it killed me knowing that I broke that because I built up a lot of good friendships and things. And it was very hard for me to deal with that part because I do I do care about people. That doesn't show that but I mean, I'm saying to break all that and all the friendships was was very hard for me. I mean, it really was. I mean, that was one of the most difficult things that I went through, is because just people look at you. Obviously you You know differently and I hated that because I do care about what people think probably too much. But I do care about my image and what people think about you know, and I hated that I broke all that trust with the people that I worked with and so for so long whether they received a fraudulent bottle or not, it doesn't matter because I was still at that view. So 29:21 what did you refill with? 29:25 Well, or mainly, 29:27 you were refilling with Weller? That's correct. That's not what I was expecting to hear expecting here so I can tuck Tavern or something 29:36 well or not the one away but the 29:39 the special reserve yes 29:40 actually special reserved Yes. 29:43 So I guess let's let's keep on going down No, Fred wants to really feel the remorse you but I kind of want to keep going down this path of so we we've touched on the weeks afterwards. Let's Let's touch on one year after you know, usually anything What happens in these communities? It's, it's it's breaking news for about a week. And then after that the dust settles and we wait for the next big thing to happen. That's just typically the the cycle, the ebb and flow of, of what happens. So a year later, sort of where is where's your head at? Where's your your business? Like, is it still down? And is it still in a rebuilding phase? Like what? Oh, and what what sort of consequences? We're still feeling absolutely 30:27 still rebuilding phase, that's for sure. And I mean, you know, still if I go out, I'll always have I feel like that perception. So he's the guy that defrauded people who are in there's no way of me, you know, there's nothing. 30:40 You feel like you're permanently tagged with that 30:42 term. Really? Damn. Yeah. And there's, I don't think there's anything I can do about that. Unfortunately. You know, and I understand that. I understand why, because I broke that trust, you know, and that trust product can never be regained. And I understand that and that's very difficult for me. So and it's hot, honestly. It's hard to live with. I mean, it really is. It's hard for me to live with you. There's not a day goes by where I haven't thought about. And I mean that when I say that there isn't a day going by there isn't a day 31:11 where I haven't thought about it. 31:13 Yeah. I mean, I would imagine it has to be tough. It has to be tough trying to go through this and trying to it's not worth it. It's not even establish new racial mean in your in a city. Ryan, we talked about all time. It's a little town. Everybody knows everybody. Yeah. 31:30 Exactly. And it's not worth it. The amount that you suffer the amount you lose the mountain, the people that are suffered that are closest to you. It doesn't even come close. doesn't even come close. 31:43 As some additional questions I want to ask you, okay. Did you ever talk to any other counterfeiters? 31:49 No. No. At the time you were doing it Was it fun? I wouldn't classify it as fun now. I would not classify it as fun 32:00 How would you classify it 32:02 would classify it as? 32:05 greed 32:07 as well as more money? That's what I would classify this 32:12 in one of our never was it fun 32:14 when we go down that greed path? 32:17 You know, I guess, I guess this is how all criminals get caught is they think it's too easy was Was that your process or thinking of? Well, first of all, he's not a criminal because he hasn't. He has not been. He's evaded in the car. He just admitted that he never talked to the cops or anything, he committed a crime. But, you know, you know, that's, that's a different story. But you know, again, go ahead, but I just can I just want to be very clear here. You know, you could always turn yourself in for what you did, alright. can always do that. We've agreed to not you know, keep this anonymous but you know, when we When you first reached out to us, I had this big long email about how to make up for it. And it started with turning yourself in. But to me, that's kind of where a lot of the conversation starts. 33:13 So 33:15 So what led to that? I guess greed like in needing or was it? Did you need the money? Or are you just wanting the money or 33:26 there are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever. So how do you find out the best stories and the best flavors? Rock house whiskey club, it's a whiskey of the Month Club and they are on a mission uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer rackhouses box ship out every two months to 40 states and rackhouses October box there featuring a distillery with an interesting ingredient water from the Bull Run watershed that has been protected by Congress since the 1870s. Rock house whiskey club is shipping out two bottles for the Bull Run distilling company 34:00 Out of Portland, Oregon, including a peanut nor finished American whiskey, go to rock house whiskey club. com to check it out and try some for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. To 91 Colorado whiskey aims to create a one of a kind, bold and beautiful Colorado whiskey. rugged, refined, rebellious distillery to 91 is an award winning small batch whiskey distillery, located in Colorado Springs Colorado, nestled in the shadow of Pikes Peak owner and founding distiller Michael Myers grew up on the family farms in Georgia and Tennessee. across the countryside defined by rolling hills, horses and whiskey. He set out to create a flagship whiskey that evoke the Wild West. A cowboy walk into a bar saying give me a whiskey in the bartender slamming down a bottle, a bottle of 291 Colorado whiskey, find a bottle near you at 291 Colorado whiskey calm, right it like you stole it, drink it like you own it. Live fast. Drink responsibly. 35:04 So what led to that? I guess greed like in needing or was it? Did you need the money? Or are you just wanting the money or 35:17 I needed the money for 35:21 a habit that I developed, I guess. Yeah. So I guess I could put it that way. What was the habit? 35:33 addiction habit. 35:36 So you weren't like in clear thinking, clear mind 35:39 that was addiction and 35:42 then I wasn't clear about it all out. Now. My only thoughts with addiction. I mean, and that's the only thing that that time that was my only thing on the hit man. I don't even care about the continent and then it was all about the nation. That's what it was. That's how it started. 36:03 Right? So have you been clean? Have you been sober enough? Or? Oh, yes, 36:06 yes. Okay, now I help kids now, was it everything was 36:10 that the cat getting caught the catalyst to kind of do that? Or was that the okay. 36:16 And I feel so much better now. I mean, but, and that's why I try to give back by helping kids and all that. And that's been helpful to me myself to do that, you know? Because now that I've been through it, I know what it's like. And that was very hard within itself. Last, yep. 36:41 And so, you know, you had reached out to us about, you know, helping you in regards of, of something that that we had in, you know, we obliged because Ryan was looking at this as an opportunity for giving people you know, opportunities of second chances and everything like that, and then You know, this is kind of how we came here to, to kind of talk about this and have this sort of post mortem of, of really how your life can almost become actually devastated and ruined. By doing this by just a little bit of greed by thinking it's it's too easy and just continuing going down that path. So we're now we're now a little bit for like, a few years removed now. Are there still impacts that you're still seeing? Or is it is it is it started to kind of fizzle down now a little bit and you're able to start moving on slowly fizzle down. 37:37 It's been a slow process. But I mean, it's taken quite some time. And, you know, even a few years past, it's taken quite some time. You know, the effects are still there. Or they were as great as they were a couple years ago. No, but they're still there. Hmm. So do you're probably always will be. I mean, really, they probably always will be. And I Something that people got to think about that probably are when they're doing it is that it doesn't just affect you in a short run infection, the long run to it doesn't just affect you 38:13 talk about a little bit with your parents or your other family members that when this was you know, even years later have they have they been able to look past it? Or are they still kind of holding it holding that in the back of their head? 38:30 You know, honestly, my family has grown to look past it. Now that I've gotten help and everything and the way I handled it. I mean, they still were very upset. I'm not trying to say they weren't, you know, because they were but you know, they've grown to look past it in kind of like a second chance kind of thing. 38:52 Even though they were affected. How much whiskey did you sell? How much revenue did you make? You made a profit or gross 39:00 Gross in a year 39:02 or a year total what 39:06 the gross was maybe, let's just say 75 75,000. That's not that net. Obviously, there's a big difference there, you know, but I would say that would be the gross. 39:18 So that's a, for a lot of people. That's a year's wage. 39:22 Now, the net is much smaller than that. But yeah, sure. 39:26 So, you know, as we as we kind of start looking at wrapping this up a little bit, you know, I kind of want to also talk about because you're a family man. 39:36 You have kids as well. 39:39 You want to you want to kind of try to anonymize a little story a little bit and kind of look at this was kind of like the breaking point as well, at least where we got involved, of really how this started affecting even your children's lives. 39:55 Yeah, and that was one of the toughest things. You know, during this and you know, my kids They had to look up Google apparent saying, and, you know, during that the classmates, you know, we're all there. And they saw my son, and my name as well, too. And he got, he received a very hard time from it. And when that was just crushed me, I mean, it just crushed me. Because obviously he didn't have nothing you know what to do with this whatsoever and to see your son being effective, who's young, you know, I mean, it's very hard. That's, that's the hardest thing. 40:30 There is real heavy. He explained to him what happened or like, not to the fullest degree, you know, 40:35 right. No, no, I did not. He's too young, I believe. Sure. Now, so sure. 40:43 You think one day I'll find out? 40:45 Probably. Yeah, probably. And that's the day I have to sit down and have a talk with a very hard talk. I mean, it'll be a teaching lesson, but still be a very hard talk. This is something very ashamed of, you know, I mean I'm not I'm not proud of this I'm extremely ashamed of it. I mean, you know, it can't go back in time obviously you know, this is one of these things where God I wish he could 41:14 so as we as we kind of finish this up and kind of kind of give people one last sort of message on if you if you think that you're going on this path and you can we're we're all bourbon enthusiasts here we know what bottles look like you've already talked about being able to acquire some of these bottles and most of them if it's just cheap plastic stuff that goes over top of it, you can get a you can get a hair dryer and get them blow Blow gun or heat gun and you can you can shrink wrap stuff pretty easily. Talk about it people that are out there thinking about it even just remotely thinking about it, like what's the what's the, the end state of where this is going to go to 41:57 people thinking about it, one you're not just defrauding that one person unifying the whole entire group for one. So you're not just going to have one person upset, you're going to have a whole entire group coming after you. And on top of that, there's so many things that can be damaged with your business, your family, your co workers and things like that. And there is no amount of money, there is no amount of money that is worth everything that you go through. There isn't an NSA that with extreme confidence, it's not worth it. It's not worth it whatsoever. Not even the first bottle because that's all it takes us one. That's all it takes. And from someone that's done it, I mean, I just assure you, whoever's thinking about doing this, the last thing you want to do, it's the last thing you want to do. The repercussions are unbelievable. And is extremely hard, even years after it is. So not just from a business point, but I mean, you know, friendships, I mean, it's hard all the way around. It really is. So It's not worth the money. 43:02 And I guess one thing I forgot to ask you, you know, speaking with friendships, I'm sure you had friends outside of outside of bourbon and stuff like that, too. What was what was the reality of the situation? When they came to find out about stuff like this? They were shocked, because 43:15 they never saw that coming from me. 43:18 You know, I actually have a good friend who grew up with you, really? And he couldn't believe it. And that's Yeah. 43:26 And I'll say, very difficult to, I'll say this. You said it's not worth the money. 43:33 What if you didn't get caught? What if, what if you didn't get caught? Hmm. And suddenly, it's not 75,000 at 100 grand and it's 200,000. And now you can buy something else. What if you didn't get caught? Would have been worth the money then. 43:51 In my situation, if I wouldn't have been thought, I don't know if I'd be here today. 43:57 And I really don't 44:00 Because that's how bad of a problem I had. 44:05 So that's what I can say with my personal self that I really don't think I would have been. So this was almost a blessing. That idea is as weird as that sounds, but I'm just, I'm just being honest with you. It really was. Because I wouldn't have stopped that addiction thing. You know, it would have had it taken something like this for me too, because that's how powerful it is. So, with my situation, that's what I can say with that. 44:36 Understand, but I hope you can also understand that myself and probably thousands of listeners, don't feel sorry for you. Like I said, from what I understand that 44:46 and I don't and I don't blame them. And I completely understand that. 44:50 There's a lot of people who try to use their addiction or whatever happened to them as excuses for what they did. And I've seen that time and time again. And you know, the fact is, you know, what do you look like in 510 15 years? JOHN? When when the the heat's off? Yeah. What do they look like then? Are you maybe getting back in the game? Are you going to maybe try to counterfeit again? You say no now, but 45:23 there's no way I would ever even remotely consider getting this again. And I mean, that 45:30 not even remotely. I mean, I will never sell a legitimate nothing, a bottle of bourbon again, I don't want anything to do with bourbon after this, and I mean that. And I mean, it's been a few years, and I haven't and you won't see it in a few years before. That there's a lot of confidence in the world. I don't want to go through anything like this again. I'm not even legitimately not even not even legit at me. I don't want any I don't want to be involved in it at all. I'm gonna hold you to that. 46:00 goes to places like in. And for me, this is like where the agreement for anonymity would end is like, if you're caught selling 46:14 counterfeits again, 46:16 we blame you. I mean, 46:18 how people are human nature is they got away with something, they got paid or whatever. The heat's on them goes away, and then they come back to it. 46:30 With dance in nature, I mean, 46:33 you'll notice that I guess in the years to come, I guess that's all I can say. But there's no question about it with what I've been through. It doesn't even cross my mind. There's other ways she can make money. And I'm legitimately there's other ways you can make money. And that's the last thing I'm going to do. I mean, I mean, it's not even consideration. There's no way and I mean, legitimately as well, too. I don't want no sales whatsoever with me. I have done in you will not see me do it in the future. And you know what, if you ever were to which you won't destroy me, you know, but the second half of the second half? 47:14 Well, I know one person around here that'll keep you keep you on. So 47:19 please, please keep up. I mean, you know. 47:22 Yeah. So john, I do want to say thank you again for, you know, having a having the courage to come on. I know this is not easy. It's definitely not easy, and it's definitely not easy putting a position like this. However, our real goal with today was to help not only just bring a story that's never been heard before, but also to give other people the opportunity to understand what is the real ramifications of this type of activity. And when a community can really come down on you and really destroy not only just not only just a reputation, but Your family life and everything that comes in it's it's not just a week. It's It's It's a lifetime. And that's really what what it boils down to. 48:08 And I want to I want to go to this game, can you keep saying like the community did not destroy the choices? And I hope you I hope you agree with this. The choices you made, destroyed your reputation and your relationship. That's wrong. Unity did not do that. Right. You're exactly right choice. 48:25 You're exactly right. It was only me. You're 100%. Correct. And I appreciate you having me. All right. And I hope I could at least fence a couple of people out there, you know, that. Don't even think about it. So I really do. 48:41 Again, thank you, at least from our side to say, telling your story. I think it's again, valuable for people out there just to know it. And really, as I said, what the ramifications are. So if you want to learn more about bourbon pursuit, what we're doing next one of the hot topics we're hitting on, make sure you Follow us on social media Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, as well as Fred medic, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. You got the curation desk you've got Patreon you've got on the for all the lighter side all the lighter subjects a 49:11 little bit lighter in here you're usually 49:14 yes this is this is a very serious subject today and 49:17 we know that given that it was a I mean for it I totally get where you're coming from you know because it it is a trust community and the Trust has been broken and I'm you know, and maybe I'm taken advantage of but I do believe in redemption and I will just say you know you only get one chance and don't screw it up and and you know, Fred one of their more so I can see the pain you know, and I can feel it I feel the tension so in especially when dealing with families of people that are thinking about it, I can I can tell you that this man has been through some with some some emotional stuff with people and and I just hope that never happens again with anyone or you and I'm glad we got Fred to keep me in 49:58 check. So Fred, I respect questions I agree with what you said seriously. So I really do 50:03 well I am I've been around a bit and I've seen a lot of 50:10 lot of people say things and you know repeat their actions I 50:14 could I could understand 50:15 you know, words are easy for sure I do I definitely do believe in like the forgiven forget. But to me that's not just like a given to me that's you got to earn it. For sure. And for me, this is this is a really nice first step for you earning that from from me and perhaps other people in the community. And I would say you know, a next step could be speaking to local authorities, because whether you whether you end up doing time for this or you enter a plea deal in which you help you help spot fakes or something and then community because fakes are rampant in the entire industry. You can't walk through a major city without seeing a fake Pappy Van Winkle on, on display in a bar. There are bars all the time refilling their stuff. And you know something, most of the people who are in charge of like going around and making sure that the taxes are paid and people aren't serving under age, they don't care about that stuff. But that stuff is defrauding our community as much as you are. And for me, if you want that sweet redemption, if you want to be forgiven, if you want people to forget about it, you gotta do something to get the community you know, to support the community because right now the bourbon community is is hanging on by a thread with a lot of these lot of these fakes. Again, I said you are one point now there's been numerous since a lot of them are Stealing straight from the distillery. And at the end of the day, you know, I'm genuinely I genuinely am coming to the point where I will not buy certain bottles unless I can validate them all the way to the original purchase. That's where I am right now because I know how bad it is in the market. And it all unfortunately started with you. And so you take on more of more of an anger, more of a grievance for me, then I think, you know, if you were if, if you were like the fourth or fifth guy, 52:40 that I respect that and understand where I'm coming from, I can't argue that. I mean, I respect that. 52:46 I'm glad you do. And I hope you I hope you consider my step two very seriously. Okay. All right. Thank you, Rhonda and close it out. 52:58 See you next time. 53:00 With attention was tight in there so yeah, honestly it was yeah not 53:02 the best host for these types 53:05 neither I usually I usually like to give it it lightened area 53:09 we get we get but no it is a definitely a serious subject yeah for it I'm glad you could ask the tough questions because I'm not so tough 53:17 It's okay. Somebody somebody hears keep us real. But then again, thank you for everybody that was able to make it here today to be able to talk about this all the team involved and make sure that you stick around listen to bourbon pursuit next week, because we've always got new fun topics. So with that, we'll see you all next week. 53:35 Cheers. Cheers. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
7 Nov 2019
229 - Instagram Likes, Pappy vs The Secondary, and Thanksgiving on Bourbon Community Roundtable #39
This is the final roundtable for 2019 as we head into the new year. And this one packs a few punches. First, we dive into Instagram news where the number of likes are now hidden from your view. How will it impact bourbon Instagram stars? Then we roll into the meat of the podcast talking about Pappy and Sazerac vs The Secondary Market. Lastly, we share what we are thankful for in 2019. I also want to take this opportunity to say thank you to you, the dedicated listeners and viewers of Bourbon Pursuit. We really appreciate the hours you spend with us every week to hear us talk about bourbon. Show Partners: Barrell Craft Spirits works with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America’s most curious cask strength whiskies. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: Warehouse X: http://www.experimentalwarehouse.com/ Marianne Eaves at TEDxBroadway: https://www.tedxbroadway.com/talks/2019/11/19/making-the-impossible-and-doing-the-unthinkable-marianne-eaves This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about vintage whiskey collections. Instagram removes likes. Does this impact bourbon influencers? Do Instagram posts drive people to your content? Will the lack of likes deter people from using influencers? Should Instagram hide the number of followers? Do you think Sazerac is behind the secondary take down? Why make the Van Winkles the face of the blame? Should they raise the SRP of Pappy? Do you think other distilleries are happy they took action on the secondary market? What are you thankful for with bourbon in 2019? Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com, Nick from BreakingBourbon.com , and Brian from sippncorn.com for joining. 0:00 me think about it if you're like a craft distiller you work your ass off like making it all anyone ever asked like, was it? Did you distill it? Yeah, yeah, we produced it. No Did you distill it? 0:13 Right there the label 0:15 and then and then they then you taste it like oh, that sucks. I'd rather have MGP 0:32 Happy Thanksgiving everybody. It is Episode 229 of bourbon pursuit and I hope you're out there, drinking a little bit of Turkey today and just taking it nice and easy. Now Buffalo Trace just wrapped up its second experiment utilizing its custom made experimental warehouse x. Now this experiment began in 2016 and focus on how temperature affects the aging process. The first experiment ended in 2016. And that one focus on natural like keeping barrels various stages of light for two years. And the second experiment, which just ended a few weeks ago at the end of October, determined how barrel activity correlates with temperature changes, keeping to the four warehouse chambers constant and vary the other two chambers. And throughout the experiment, they track temperature fluctuations from five degrees to 109 degrees Fahrenheit, and monitored the barrel pressures ranging from about negative 2.7 psi to a positive 3.2 psi, in total 9.1 million data points were collected during the second experiment. And now the next experiment will expand on the distilleries temperature experiment by focusing on how temperature and these swings affect whiskey activity in the barrel. And there's gonna be a two year experiment and that's going to begin in late November. Buffalo Trace estimates that it's going to collect more than 70 million data points by the end of this 20 year project. For more information about warehouse texts, you can visit the experimental warehouse.com good friend of the show Marion Eve got it. chance to tell her story on nothing else. But the TED stage. TED talks are a personal favorite of mine. And I feel that she did an absolute amazing job on this. Not only do you get to hear her story of getting into bourbon, working your way up the ranks at Brown Forman, delete for castle and key and her eventual departure from castling key but she really shines a spotlight on bourbon as a whole. It's a 10 minute TED talk that was from TEDx Broadway. And you can watch it with the link in our show notes. This is the final round table for 2019. As we head into the new year, and this one, it packs a few punches, we first dive into the Instagram news where the number of likes are now hidden from your view. And if that's going to impact our bourbon Instagram stars that are out there. Then we roll into the real meat of the podcast talking about Pappy and saceur act versus the secondary market. There's lots of good ideas and theories behind this one. Lastly, we share what we're thankful for in 2019. And I also want to take this opportunity Say thank you to you. We really do appreciate the hours that you spend with us every single week to hear us talk about bourbon. And I hope each and every one of you have a happy Thanksgiving. Now it's time for Joe to tell us a little bit more about barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char. 3:18 It's Joe from barrell bourbon. We work with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America's most curious cask strength whiskies. Find out more at barrell bourbon com. 3:32 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. This week's idea comes from Ian, that bourbon guy on Twitter. Ans what are the top 10 vintage Bourbons everyone must chase on their whiskey journey. That's a great question and it's one I've actually thought a lot about because I like to collect vintage whiskies. For me it all starts with the distilleries you want to have like a whiskey from every distillery that matters to you or every state. For me, I can't speak for everyone else. But I had to have some Mexican bourbon and some Canadian bourbon in my collection. So when I started my hunts, I captured some of those that so these are historic Bourbons that would have been made in these markets before the 1964 declaration of bourbon being a unique product the United States so those are two right off the bat. And the Mexican bourbon was not so good. The Canadian bourbon actually pretty pretty good. And then I have to always have something from national distillers national distillers was really good parent company that used to operate old Taylor and Old Crow they sold to beam in 1987 and Old Crow turned a shit in thankfully says rack acquired old Taylor from beam which was slowly To shit as well. So I always have to have something from national distillers. And then I like to go for my favorite distillers of all time. And that would be someone like Edwin Fudd, or book or know or Lincoln Henderson or Parker beam, you know something that these great legendary iconic distillers would have touched. So that's not really a brand per se, but you got to do your homework to find out where they worked and what they did and what brands they touched on that and so that is that is one tool that I have always used as well, and you got to get something from the 1800s. I mean, it's kind of a it's a difficult acquisition. But if you can find the old bottle from the 1800s you feel pretty special about it. It's a pretty pretty cool feeling when you hold in your hand something that was created during President Benjamin Harrison's time I also like to always have a bottle from stetzer Weller Wild Turkey, old brown Forman products like old old forester from the 1960s the President's choice, and something I'm very fond of as getting those private labels that they used to make. Back in the day places like Macy's and grocery stores, they would all have private labels a bourbon. You're starting to see a little bit of a comeback of this, but it was really popular back in the day. One thing I like to stay away from though are the decanters, especially the Jim Beam decanters because you really never know how much is left in there. You know, some of them might be like too much lead in there, whatever. But there's a lot of decanters that I will not touch of course, that completely contradicts what I'm about to tell you. And that is the Old Crow chespin piece from the 1960s. It was absolutely it's absolutely the greatest bourbon I have ever tasted. And if you've never had the opportunity to taste it, you can go check out a bottle at the Bardstown bourbon company, the library there I curated. So those are really some of my key points when I'm when I'm looking for vintage whiskeys and they're all very personal you got to remember whiskey is is about your own journey as well as the hunt. So find out what it is you like and what stories means something to you and what people meant something to you and go chase them. So that's this week's above the char thanks a lot T and for that great idea and if you have an idea for above the char make sure you hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, or even YouTube now. Just search my name Fred MiniK. Until next week, cheers 7:39 Welcome everybody. It is the bourbon Community Roundtable number 39 and this is bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. This is one of the most favorite times of the podcast especially for us because we get to bring on all our good friends with inside of the community here the best bloggers around some of the best lawyers around that know about bourbon as well. And to be held in accountants. I mean, we got two accounts. Yeah. Got it, we're gonna we're going to start creating our own trade business at the end of this. And not only that is you know, we have people from all around the nation that are joining and watching us live and being a part of this conversation as well. Right now we're sitting around 63 concurrent viewers, hopefully gets 100 by the end of this. But with that, let's go ahead because we've got a whole lot of information to talk about, and I want to kind of get into this. So, Ryan, Fred, here we are again, man. You guys look looking forward tonight. 8:31 Yeah, I think this is a very important discussion to have tonight, and maybe it's one we've all wanted to have. 8:39 What are we discussing? 8:42 What happens what happens when you don't do the homework? Yeah. 8:45 I'm super excited to discuss that too. 8:48 Nice. Nice. Alright, so let's go ahead and round in our first one. So Blake from bourbon or how are you? I'm 8:53 doing well doing well. Thanks for having me, guys. Yeah, into my introduction. Yeah, I guess it's just our usual thing is usual Alright, I'm Blake from bourbon or if you're watching this you probably already know this is the, you know, longest standing tradition of making the roundtables, like call me the kin, Kendrick. Ken Griffey, also Cal Ripken of the round table but that's a follow me on all the social medias. Bo you are Bo and r.com as well as seal box calm, only have URLs where you have to spell it out and people are caught on What was that again? So seal boxes. Es el ba ch s. 9:36 And you got a new one right Southern barnburner I have that 9:39 one. I don't know. Is that is that you 9:43 know, is there a southern bourbon or out there? Yeah. 9:47 Yeah. Someone's copying you. 9:49 Talk boy hop on those URLs. Blake. Oh, yeah. 9:53 Go ahead and put that cease and desist out. 9:55 I'll get it together tonight. 9:57 You know, speaking of that, the kind of fakes and stuff that Come out there. Remember Ted Finnick? Remember those articles? Yeah, that 10:04 was whatever happened he had like a solid two month run and then all the sudden 10:08 it happens every now and then someone will come out and try to, you know, impersonate me or do some kind of, you know, fun satirical deal. And that's great. I love it. But what they don't realize is if you're going to try to impersonate me You better try to keep up because I go fast and 10:25 they realize like oh man this this is work now like 10:32 I'll just go back to making fun of him and in a Facebook forum you know and that's good 10:38 all right, Brian, you're up next buddy. 10:40 Yeah, thanks guys for having me again is Brian with sip and corn you can find me on the all the socials as sip and corn and you can also find me at bourbon justice calm. Look forward to a good show tonight. Guest 10:51 fantastic and Nick. 10:53 And I'm Nick with breaking bourbon calm. April 1. Breaking vodka calm that's been known to happen. But only that one day. And I can find us on all this socials at breaking bourbon. And thanks again for me on guys. 11:08 Absolutely. It's always great to have all of you on especially everybody else that's here in the chat. So let's go ahead and kind of start with our first question. If people in the chat they have something that they'd like to say with us as well speak now, we're going to be like to be able to put it out there for you. So the first we're going to talk about is the new change that happened with Instagram. Now, this is something that kind of, you know, maybe impacts the bourbon world a little bit, but more or less, just like the influencer market that's out there. So one of the recent changes that happened was they removed the ability to see the amount of likes that an individual has on a specific kind of post. And this can be for a few different reasons. You know, there's a lot of things that you know, you can buy likes out there, that's, that's not unheard of. You can buy followers as well, but one things you really can't buy or, you know, good comments or engagement and stuff like that. So I guess the one thing I'll kind of hand it over to what sir, who has the The most followers I'm it's either between bourbon or breaking who's got the most followers or aging? Probably. 12:05 Yeah, I'd have to check. I think we're just under 70,000 12:08 Yeah, okay. 12:12 I got 7070 12:16 Yeah, there's there's no thousand after it, 12:18 you'll get it. I mean, you know, I'll say this you know, our, it's all 100% organic we we've never gotten into, you know, anything where you sign up to get followers in some way, we pretty much just post What we want to talk about what we're drinking. We try to keep it light on there as much as possible, of course, will will post new content and that kind of thing. But we've really made that clear with you know, anybody who wants to, you know, be sponsored in some way that you know, really it's about what we want to do so sure, if you want to send us a sample of something, or a bottle That's fantastic, you know, we'll maybe review it maybe do a TNT you know, maybe it'll show up and Instagram but really, we still, you know, maintain and control that you know, from the like personal active, you know, we certainly use it as a gauge as to what, you know what people want to see, you know, what, you know, what times a week or times a day, you know, maybe that the times when more people are going to see those posts, you know, generally speaking, you know, number of likes, you know, you'll you'll gauge that it's kind of the, the, the, you know, that metric outside of kind of next next met metric, which is the interaction. So the number of comments on the post, which is, you know, some posts, we see a huge volume of comments and others, you know, not really much I think, sometimes when we direct people off to the site, we actually lose comments on the Instagram post itself, and people are getting pulled right off to the site to read the review. But that's the intent. You know, the idea is to kind of share that message, let people know there's something new up on this site. You know, what I think is interesting about this whole thing is it's being proposed as, and maybe there's some truth and validity to it, that, you know, it's to help with people's mental well being that kind of thing. But that being said, I think there's a part of That believes at some point, you know, these companies that want this data on, you know, unlikes are going to be able to buy it on the back end, they're going to be able to see that data, you know, through some kind of payment to Instagram, they're going to be able to figure out, you know, who the best engaging influencers are, if that's what you want to call them. And they're going to use that as a metric. Because right now, if you think of these, you know, these companies, if they're looking at, you know, number of followers, and they're looking at number of likes, those are really kind of just surface that just touches the surface of what's going on, you know, as far as the interaction goes, and they really want the interactions, they want people that are interacting with the community and in depth and really, you know, connected with the communities that they're talking to. And those couple of metrics, I'm not really sure, you know, fully, you know, fully show that so I think what we're going to see is I think we're going to see Instagram, really starting to take a bite out of this pie of, you know, these influencers who are making money on this journey, they want their piece and I think that's what's eventually going to come is you know, ways for those companies to kind of engage that data? 15:02 Nick, that's a fantastic answer, by the way. 15:04 next subject. Here we go. 15:07 Do you ever gauge your post between you and Jordan and just to see who has the most likes? 15:12 I think Jordan does that he's keeping track five state. Not really. We have I mean, we have fun with it. We're running scoreboard. 15:22 We do get excited. I will say when there's actually when there's comments is when we really get excited, I think I posted actually was the three of us together, we went to a local store, and he kind of let us in the back or he's got way too much. That's not like generally for sale. But he kind of said, you know, take what you want, you know, what do you want and, you know, we weren't we didn't go over Barba which got three bottles and stuff you just don't see. And you know, we kind of put them arrange them in group. So this is what each of us got, you know, my group, George's group, Eric's group when you just said which, which one would you pick? One, two or three. And we were amazed by how many comments we got. Matt, you know, because it's really interesting to see, you know, that dynamic of what people gravitated towards, you know, with the bundle or the one particular bottle they felt like was the strongest, you know, that kind of thing. So, we get more excited about I think interactions than just just plain old likes at this point. 16:16 Yeah, I kind of the question for you know, between you and Blake, you know, when you look at this, you know, the ultimate goal is that none of us are like making money off Instagram, right? None of us are. I guess the question is, is that what we want to do is want to figure out how do we convert these people that are looking at our stuff on Instagram to actually listening to a podcast or reading one of your articles, like, do you see Instagram as a medium to actually make that happen? Or just are people just excited to just be like, Oh, cool. Nick has a bottle of Pappy 20 all like that. For me. 16:45 I think it's just, you know, it's all part of the big big flywheel. So you know, there's, there's people who come to just see the Instagram and may see a blog post or something like that, and, you know, so it's kind of connecting it all. But I think Instagram is a good discovery tool. 17:02 So 17:04 somebody may not be you just Google searching and find you, but they may see you on Instagram. They're like, Oh, they have a blog they posted a review now I'll look at that. So I think it's it's really good for that just for discovering new new blogs, new new websites, all that kind of stuff. So it's not as big of on the likes, like I didn't think that was that big of a deal, at least in the whiskey industry. You know, I think Mikey putting the comments about, you can still see the inside. So companies want to see your analytics of how many likes and comments you get per post, they could still see all that it's more of like that forward facing just that vanity number of Oh, this post got 1000 likes it is crazy. I think they just took took away that and I mean, that's fine to me. I don't think it really affects anything that us do. Because, you know, like Kenny said, No, no one's really making money off of Instagram. At least I haven't figured out a way yet. So, you know, it kind of removes that removes a little bit of the vanity. 18:09 And so I think it's pretty good thing overall, 18:11 I think this is very important for the consumer. What this does is it kind of, it kind of deflates a trend that we've seen in, in whiskey in that there's been a shit ton of people who bought a bottle of bourbon five weeks ago, and suddenly they're an expert. And so, you know, Instagram seem to be a breeding ground for people coming into the game. And I, as you all know, I will help anybody trying to get into this business at you know, to create interesting content or ideas or videos, whatever. I am all about furthering the education and the conversation. And even if you are a new bourbon consumer, and you're bringing people into that journey, And you're just posting a bottle. There's nothing wrong with that. The the problem that has surfaced from these, you know, some of the what we would call influencers is that they were like, overnight experts, and they would they would post themselves as that I mean, and someone like, you know, Brian and myself has been doing this for more than a decade. You know, he just kind of kind of look at that and scratch your head. But at the same time, I have seen the impact of what the influencer community can do for for events and getting people to show up or even watch something. And I think it's really powerful. There's a guy scotch and time I thought I that what he has done has been really remarkable in that he kind of vetted a lot of influencers that would touch scotch whether they were a cigars or They were car people. And like with it, you know, with a flick of a finger or a reach out through Instagram, he would have all those people talking about an event. And before you know it, you know he touches a million people. And those are real people. And so I think there's an incredible amount of value to it. But we just have to be careful that we don't get ourselves in a situation where we're not providing real information or a real story that matters to somebody 20:32 kind of just the back of what Fred says, I think I love Instagram and I waste countless hours of it. That's why I've mostly delete social media during the week not to waste time on it but with Instagram, it's like you have shallow short and like you know what contents going to grab you at that instant and it's like, everything has to be epic and it makes it like so like dramatic and it's sad that we have to like remove likes because people put So much self worth, like in those that we're trying to fix, you know, people's mental health because they don't realize this is a highlight reel of someone's life or their life like when Blake's, you know, dropping a brisket and it wobbles, and he has to put, you know, juvenile 400 degrees on it. It's not because he's living this epic life. It has kids screaming in the 21:22 room in the background, like everybody's going crazy. That's why I have to put music over every single. 21:32 Like, those celebrities are like, look at me, I'm so epic, because I'm with my boys and we got like 10 bottles and we put like 40 filters on it to make it look like the craziest photo ever. But, you know, that's just my thought on it. 21:45 I will say that when I got when Instagram verified my account, and I got that little blue checkmark. I mean, there's there are a few things that I have celebrated. More than that, that was like in a weird way, it was like, you know for 22:03 let me interrupt few things you've celebrated more than that. 22:07 Well, in terms of like social media, I was about to go down, go down that road, like, I hate social media. But when I first started, like trying to, you know, sell books to publishers, they were like, you need Instagram followers, you need Twitter followers, you need this and now it's fucking YouTube. So you know, you have to have all of these things to be encompassing and so that's why you know, I've worked on that is because it's what the people who you know, put on events and you know, buy books at the publishing level or films or whatever, that's what they want. And at bourbon and beyond, you know, we assess bands based on you know, like a new up and coming band, we can assess a band based on the metrics from YouTube or Instagram, that's real life data. So when I got that like blue checkmark because I know how important that is for like, event planners And that's basically how I make a good chunk of my living is doing events around the world. And when I got that blue checkmark, I was like, I've made it. 23:10 I had no idea I was That's crazy. I mean, I was late to the game didn't get on to my daughter got me on. And it's it's eye opening to 23:18 actually just put a green check after my name. I think it's something similar to that. Blue check. I think it 23:24 will. The green check emoji. Yeah. 23:28 Yeah, it's pretty close. I think it'll pass in some places. So yeah, I mean, like I said, I think that was a really good kind of way to touch on it a little bit. And I guess the last thing that will kind of look in here is, you know, as if you're a company and you're still looking for that engagement, that influencer following I mean, it is this can be a deterrent for you not being able to see that or is it going to be like okay, now we have to get more data out of this person, try to figure out if they're actually a true influencer or not. I think 23:53 it's going to cause the companies to dig deeper 23:56 sites that give you those analytics. I mean, there's sites like You know, don't on it down 24:02 follower by user. 24:03 Yeah, by account. And I think it's I think Instagrams going to use that data, you know, I think they're going to collect more data, I would think that they, at some point are going to try to be in between, because if you think right now, if there's transactions happening between companies in between influencers she got in, it's happening outside of Instagram, but then the post and the activity, the thing that they want is happening inside of Instagram, I gotta believe that, if I'm Instagram, why wouldn't I want a portion of that? Why would I want to be the one to connect those two entities? And if anything, we may see a lot more of that because right now, it's really pretty ad hoc, you know, especially if you're not somebody that's, you know, a huge Instagram personality that's got it figured out, you know, or a big company that's got it figured out you know, you've got smaller companies seeing it seeing like seeing followers thinking, Okay, there's a big audience here. Maybe they don't understand that but they might want to throw some money. They may not know how to connect with quality, the influencers I think we may see a lot more connectivity there, you know, between between these two parties with Instagram actually in the middle taking a portion of it, which to me that's even a little bit more scary you know, because as of right now you got to be cautious about what you're seeing and reading because what's really what's really behind it, you know, and there's certainly some markets out there where just about all the information that's out there is got somebody money behind it is very difficult to find real information, you know, that somebody has put together on their own without the influence from somebody money. 25:33 Okay, last question as we kind of tail off on this. Should Instagram also hide the amount of followers that you have, 25:40 I think that would start to deter even more from people reaching out to you know, influencers and all that kind of stuff. So I think that would hurt their, you know, they can kind of get away with hiding the likes and you know, gets a nice PR push, but if they started hiding followers and all of that. I mean, you know, the whole mental health thing I get, but it's like, if somebody is drawing value in their own life, because of how many Instagram followers, they have Instagrams not gonna be able to solve that problem in their life, you know, it's going to take something more. And, you know, it's a sad thing to say, but it is true. Like, if that's where you're deriving value from with your life, like, you need to take a step back in general. And that's just a small byproduct of I'm sure some deep seated issues. 26:34 So 26:35 kind of a, on a serious note to bring it back. 26:39 No, like, what's the point that I mean, you know, we're all on there to build a bigger following and reach bigger audience. So take it for what it is. It's a tool to talk to more people about whiskey. It's not something that you should be waking up in the middle of the night thinking why don't I have 100,000 26:56 followers every time my posts don't get as much likes his kidneys. I'm liking that. You're in a funk. You know, 27:07 I who cares what they do? I mean, I just all I mean every, every day, they're all changing their algorithms and you know, one day it's all going to go away or be changed and highly regulated. Just, it's not worth worrying about or even thinking about. It's all stupid. 27:24 Yeah, like speaking of stupid, let's go ahead and move on to another stupid topic. So some fun. 27:28 Yes. Alright. 27:30 Cool. So, last week, Blake broke a lot of hearts out there across the nation, as he got rid of you know, he always has to be tech map, but he said this year, and never again, will there ever be another Pappy release map. And so that kind of led into a good blog posts that kind of talked about really the problems that he sees with it. You know, even if you do find a bottle, Pappy. odds are you're not going to be paying retail because I think he said there's about it. Maybe a two to 5% chance that there's that's all the retailers that are left across the nation that are actually selling theirs at suggested retail price. And so this kind of leads into the sort of the next question and it also kind of tails off on a lot of things that we had discussed or kind of took the the brunt end of it. A few weeks ago when we had a counterfeiter on the podcast, and people were talking about, okay, well, you need to go talk to Sandra, you need to pull you need to put them online, they should be responsible for this. Like they need to answer the questions that people we reached out to saceur and PR, and we asked for somebody to come on the show to try it and provide some transparency. And we knew this was going to be a sensitive subject. And we're willing to give all the questions up front just in case they wanted to prepare their answers. However, resizer at the respectfully declined our offer, and they do not wish to answer any of our questions. So we're going to do what we do best and make all sorts of frivolous claims and conspiracy theories. 28:53 Thank you. lations. 28:54 Yes, so everything you hear from this point forward and me button right now. 29:00 Go ahead and throw that Brian's 29:02 way. 29:04 So anything that you hear from here on out is our own opinions. Nothing that is factual or true or anything. This is just something that we're all just kind of talking about as just kind of friends and kind of just putting our ideas out there. So, the first thing we kind of look at here is, of course, we all know that the van winkles were kind of the face of the secondary market take down we talked about it, you know, we recorded it bourbon and beyond. We put it out there the whole world got to hear. However, I kind of want to put it out there for you all. Do you believe that there, you know, there are bigger wheels in motion behind this. And it's actually Sazerac as a whole. And it's really the Van Winkle is just kind of had to be the puppet in this. 29:42 We're not going to fall on the sword with you, Kenny. Let's you're on your own. 29:47 When you look at it, it's kind of like the perfect storm. So the Van Winkle is have the face where everyone knows Pappy and everybody wants to get Pappy and that's you know, that's I'll step out and say that's the majority of what was being sold and traded and everything on the secondary market. It helps when you have a billion dollar company that also hates the secondary behind you and that's that's where azurite came in. So you know where I think Preston said where he fail which was you know, he hated the secondary market and all this stuff but more Julian and everyone else falls I don't know. But you know, to me and I just think it's really misguided Is this the best way I don't want to say it's dumb or stupid because I think they have their reasons but I think they missed out on they're actually targeting their their biggest you know, cheerleaders and their biggest promoters by going after the secondary market in you know, to go after the secondary market and not just put some, you know, anti counterfeiting measures on their bottle. I think that's the biggest thing. And I have a, you know, my prop is in the background of how much I feel like they actually do care about the consumer. And you know, you look at the 2017, Pappy 15 year, they put the wrong foil cap, they put the red cap on the bottle instead of the black cap and just let it go out to market. I mean, I can't think of any other product where they put the wrong cap on it just like who cares? Send it no big deal. And that's to me that was like a bigger slap in the face that actually going after the secondary the fact that you know, these things are how crazy people go. And it wasn't like there was a press announcement meant before it was just like they started popping up and for like, hey, the 15 years got a red cap on it this year. Like oh, bottling mistake, it's good. So, it took us 20,000 31:55 bottles before we realized screw let it go. 31:58 Like I just You know, we send one sticker out wrong and you're going to get a reply automatically you send it out, Hey, sorry, we sit around sticker, whatever. So that to me was just kind of like, what are we really going after here and ultimately, Cedric says or ex defense of the three tier system, which they are strongly embedded in, they believe in the three tier system, they think three tier system should be there no matter what. And they see the secondary market as, you know, a deterrent to the three tier system or you know, impeding the three tier system. And ultimately, it's not about taking down the secondary, it's about making sure that that three tier system is in place, and ongoing forever. 32:44 They were even against like the da Vinci spirits. 32:48 Lucky. So, you know, for me, like that's what the secondary market was was to go and enjoy looking at those beautiful old bottles. That would occasionally pop up from the 50s and 60s, I gave two shits about Pappy. And, you know, but that's what led the conversation in it really, it comes down to it comes down to every single year for that company. They have the hottest Bourbons that everybody wants in every major city in the country and the small ones in every country in the world. How do they get there? How do they get it there? And then in between those these things that happen, they're staffed within their own company. You know, there's small little counterfeiters here and there you got ridiculous hype, you know, driving around it, like from like the from the fortune story about billionaires can't even get a bottle to help us talking about it. I mean, for God's sake, I mean, I've my whole Pappy versus the field thing on YouTube. Was was an experiment for me just at halftime. I'm fine with it, but, but it was like, you know, I'm part of the problem. So I guess, you know, before we kind of jump into some other questions here, does anybody else kind of think that? You know, was it really like why make the van winkles the face of this? 34:18 With the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. 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Like, is anybody else have a kind of theory about behind that? 36:24 Well, I mean, do you think that says rack is making the Van Winkle face? Or do you think the van winkles are recognizing that of their own volition and in you know, driving and as well themselves? 36:36 This is all theory, man. So if you think that, you know, they had the wheels in motion behind this, and they're just like, hey, Preston, we're going to go ahead and let you be the punching bag. This today like what what do you really think that was it or you really think that maybe the vein winkles actually do legitimately care about the secondary market? 36:52 I think they were the face no matter what I mean, if four roses came out and tried to do the same thing, it's like well You know, you the small batch limited edition gets flipped a little bit but and nobody's going to step up from a bottle from 1950 you know, some old still Weller nobody's going to step up and like try to shut it down on their behalf so I think they were just kind of already the face. 37:19 But I don't think anyone else really, I guess could be the face in a sense of, you know, if you think about it is a very family business in a way you know, if you look at if you look at says rack and that company, you know, that that teaming up with the van winkles and partnership was a fantastic move, you know, for their product line. You know, that whatever caused Van Winkle and Pappy Van Winkle, you know, all the things that, you know, you look at the dominoes that fell years ago that just caused the popularity to skyrocket. You know, there's no question that that's overflowed into you know, a lot of says RX product And now we've got this, you know, we've got this this kind of like beast that's feeding itself in a way, because we've got us as, as bourbon enthusiasts, as drinkers who talk about this stuff all the time, who buy this stuff and want this stuff. I mean, I look in my, in my, in my collection here, and I've definitely got like a high percentage of Sazerac type products that I've kind of like stocked up on just based on that, geez, I don't think I'm going to see it again for a while. I better buy a few of them, as opposed to Yeah, I see it all the time. I'll just get one. What do I need three, four, you know, and so then we've got the distributors using it to hold over the retailers as a product to buy more products and is not just sanitary products, but it's stuff they want to move as well, because they're in it to make money. You know, you know, so you've and then you've got the retailers who don't put this stuff on the shelves. So no matter how much they're making, it appears to be a ghost, whatever it might be, even though there might be a lot of it because of a retailer's holding it back and taking you by You know, by the by the shoulder and saying by the arm and saying, Hey, I got something special, you're, you're a good guy like you, you want to, you're suddenly saying, I am special? I do want that. Absolutely. And then it's not even a question about it, you know, so get everybody really believing that all these products are insanely hard to get that's causing people to hoard them, stockpile them, and buy more of them, and then that's what's causing the price to go up. So the secondary in a way, has kind of helped their cause in a sense, you know, at the same time, you know, it's, they're, they're a company, you know, you got to look at say, what are you doing to stop, you know, counterfeit bottles to stop these things from going on to prevent illegal activity? You know, so how much of it is them really wanting to stop it versus just okay, I suppose we really should, you know, apply and make it look like we're doing something over here, 39:46 Nick, I think it's more than just that that helped them. I mean, it's the horse they wrote, it's the it's the reason that those brands are as popular as they are today. And now there's at least 15 turn their back on that secondary market but that's that's what made them and maybe once you make it that big you can turn your back on it and you can try to take this holier than thou attitude toward it, but it got them there and I mean maybe it'll push them back down if they if they push back against, you know Corky Taylor from peerless when I asked him about this you know at bourbon and beyond he he said that he's like this is like it's a mistake, that this whole thing was like punishing the the hardcore consumers that really has brought, you know, bourbon to where it's at right now. But I'm telling you all the van winkles in the 90s every single day they were near closure, you know that that's a company where 40:51 everybody wants to hate on them, but it was they had a long road. Long Road to get here and You know, and they, they get probably far more hate mail hate mail than all of us combined on on a yearly basis, because people can't get bottles and they get all these stories that are connected to them. And so I think a lot of what we caught on that stage in September was frustration, and I don't think saceur i don't think i don't think sads rag put then we close up to this, I think they wanted to do it. And I think Preston on that stage that day wanted to get it off his chest and you know, they, they're angry about it. They're angry about the fact that someone can sell a bottle that that's who's not a licensed retailer, they're also angry about the people who are jacking up prices and liquor stores. And here's the thing as they say they can't do anything about that, that that's true. So the liquor stores who are price gouging, you know, are protected by federal laws that prevent, prevent alcohol companies. From dictating pricing, so, like Mac and these like ambos, they they like fixed their prices and prices and retailers can't, can't do they can't jack the prices up alcohol cannot do that. And that all goes back to the 40s and 50s. And ironically, the Pappy Van Winkle testified in Congress talking about all the price fixing that was going on in the industry. So they are in a hard spot. And I, you know, it, it's, it's a know when to know when if they jack up their prices to kind of like, you know, meet the demand, they're in trouble. You know, they get yelled at, you know, and if they don't do anything, they get yelled at, but, but what it came down to is they made a business decision. And, and they, I think, I don't think they made the best business decision, but they made what they thought was best for their company. 42:53 Fred to piggyback on that, you know, I think that they do internalize what they went through and I think there's got to be a part of them that says, if we raise our prices today, this, you know, we've kind of gotten lucky in a way. I mean, if I were them, I would certainly feel like, man, we really got lucky over the years with how popular our product has become, what if we push it too hard, and we lose what we've gained. And we're back to where we were? Yeah, so I gotta believe it for them. That's got to be going on. I mean, that's a human thing to feel. I would think if any of us in that position would probably be, you know, thinking the same thing. 43:28 You know, and this is this is all kind of coming back around because, you know, Christopher Hart and a few other people with inside the chat, you know, they were saying like, Oh, it's all the vein, winkles. It's not SAS rack. And I'm kind of saying, I'm kind of the opposite. And I'll kind of give you my, my theory on this. Because, you know, when I look at this, I look at, you know, the vein winkles is the face of this and they come out saying that the main argument is behind counterfeiting, and that's a pretty weak excuse, like, actually, it's a shitty excuse my opinion, like because they're not doing anything to prevent it. They're not doing anything to invest in it to make anything happen me Blake made a pretty good example about that even quality control at Sazerac was poor enough to even see that happen. And what was the real point of just going after the secondary market? So if I think about this, and I think a few steps back, and I think a little bit higher up the ladder, I'm like, Okay, well, I want to put these people to faces because the most popular brand out there, and it's something that people are going to recognize. And if it's coming from them, all these bourbon nerds, you know, crazy, they're going to talk about it. And people are talking already on on here that saying, you know, we're doing it like we're giving them the more press that they're already going to get right. So we're giving free marketing. And this is another theory that I kind of heard from somebody else as well, is that sazzle is expanding. I mean, they've got more warehouses coming out, they've got more distilleries coming online. And the goal behind this is to not have so much focus, being on just a few select brands. Instead, what they want to be able to do is they want to be able to try to spread the pie even further. Get these hands and get these bottles in the hands of more people, not the allocated products, but the stuff that's coming online. And you got to be able to get it in such a way that people aren't just talking about the same five bottles all the time. Now, I also kind of look at this in another way is that this is a, this is a very bad thing for bourbon. Because we know Fred talked about a little bit earlier. And, and I think we've all had that same feeling that when we're able to sit there, and we're able to scroll, and we're able to see these cool bottles from the 50s and old Miller antiques from the 70s. And like all these like, you know, old Willett wax tops, and people are just going you know, they're going crazy for it. And they just want to rip it away for why for counterfeiting. Like, that's bullshit. Like it's bullshit, right? There's got to be something that's a little bit little bit higher here to make this a real a real claim and a real excuse and it can't be counterfeiting. So I'm just saying that there's there's some dots in my head that aren't connecting. To make it say that counterfeits are really the real angle 45:56 here when the Attorney General's 46:00 For the country all the states basically issued a joint letter saying that they're going to be cracking down on secondary market that's that the bad week goes guys 46:10 I'm sure Julian has 46:11 some connections but for to get 47 out of the 50 Attorney General's 46:17 and let me tell you, they're all playing on that date the Dominican Republic, minibar stuff and the whole seller world boy they seize that opportunity better than you know it. Yeah, anything since prohibition I mean, my 46:35 god, 46:36 they're like all see, look what happens here when we allow shipping. You can die. You know, you could die from alcohol poisoning and vultures will be eating your guts on the beach. It's just ridiculous. how far they took that? 46:52 I don't think says right really gives a shit as whiskey geeks we think would they care these whiskey brands care about what we think and like These really high end bottles matter that the reality is, those things are like 5% of their business. It's like low on the totem pole. It's more of a pain they asked for them. They're thinking more grander bigger. I just don't think that counterfeiting or the Van Winkle. I mean, yes, they wanted but I just don't think they would put all these resources in it into that when they're just there as on how much fireball how much Buffalo Trace, can we push out there and do it globally? Not that that's what they're focused on, I think. 47:31 Yeah, I think if anything, it's a reaction. I can agree with that to Ryan and the van winkles. It may be more internal, you know, they're invested in it. 47:39 But I think I think the van winkles it's like Fred said, they've got so much sweat equity and all this and, you know, it's their family history and they're just for lack of better term butthurt about it. You know, that people can flip it on the market for 10 x what they you know, because a $300 bottle, they're probably making you know, 9200 bucks on it you know and then and then it's selling for 1518 $2,000 i mean you know that's probably more of it for me but 48:07 but okay here's the thing like they can control that why don't they do it? 48:10 Well they could I guess but for they can just why don't they sell it for two grand but the same amount of hate from the other side saying well you sold out you 48:21 know what Booker's do when they raise the $20 they're like hell fuck the head 48:26 I kind of nonsense 48:28 yeah their perspective you know they I can't imagine the amount you know as Fred said they probably get the amount of hate mail all of us combined on a daily basis you know, it's probably pretty frustrating to get like they think they're doing the right thing by just keeping the prices lower and I'm sure every random you know guys email them saying oh, I used to buy your bottles for $50 a bottle and loved it now I can't get it. And you got a you know, I'm sure it's millennial thrown in there somewhere who's ruining it or like You know a guy in skinny jeans and a flannel shirts probably the reason why they can't live happy anymore. But you know they're probably frustrated with that like I would be too I don't you know i don't blame them but I just think they're taking the wrong approach 49:16 doesn't keeping that bottle at $90 encourage secondary flipping 49:22 you know, but indirectly if they crease it so so say they came out next year and happy 15 was just $500 I guarantee you they'd get even more hate because of that. I think but I could be wrong. I mean, ultimately I you know, I think it like Ryan said this is not a big I think all these limited releases is something they want to get behind them. You know that we Jordan an eye toward heaven Hill, and it was crazy the amount of spirits that were flowing through there and bourbon was, I mean, we saw way more watermelon vodka and flavored rums and all this stuff that we had never seen just, you know, hundreds of thousands of cases moving through their Eliza correct 23rd year was not even on the radar of what was what was important and what was, you know, kind of moving the profit loss statement. So I think it is kind of that necessary evil they want, they want to have it they want that, you know, the history and the heritage and everything else. But at the end of the day, that's not what makes these places profitable for raising prices really, 50:35 I mean, well, it isn't, it's still, you know, flips for double for you know, instantly it 50:40 will, it will it has a little bit because will it that that affects the bottom line and a little bit more, you know, if you double the price of something that is affecting your bottom line by like, point 05 percent, 50:52 you know, it's only one to 2% of their total business like that. They cut almost All their gift shop sales of it because it became such a pain in the ass. They were getting ABC letters from people saying like, or not from people that from the ABC, that people were turning them in, you know, saying like, well, they're just selling to certain people and you know, then they're like, well, the hell with it, we're not even gonna deal with anymore because it's just do this for the, you know, the whiskey and this is turned into a more headache than than it needs to be. 51:23 So I want to bring something up that Kenny said at the very top, and that's like, I want everyone to know, like how hard we work to get a representative from Sazerac to come on and talk about this. And we thought we had someone across the finish line, but we did not say Hey, come on this show. You know, we respected that person's position and his future with with that respective company. And I just want to tell you that anytime we have we've all given a lot we've sung a lot of things haven't hills way. Anytime I have ever written anything. Negative about heaven Hill, they reach out to me and they explain anytime I've ever written anything about Jim Beam, they reach out to me and explain and you know, sometimes they won't talk to me for six months, but they will they will still have a conversation with me. What we're looking at here we are looking at a very, a very closed in organization. Arguably it's the best whiskey that's out there and hungry consumers who want to know more. And if anyone from saceur acts listening, I'm just telling you that the playing it like playing the game of like not talking about this is only hurting you is only hurting you and and you got to come on you got to talk about this because people people are fascinated about it from a business perspective as well. I mean, in addition to Kenny's like, right vein popping up over here when he's got a blood draw tomorrow, you know, I'm getting concerned about him. People are absolutely fascinated with the business. A bourbon. So let's talk about one of the most key issues in our industry. And that is allocation. How do you decide to do allocation? I would love to have that conversation. 53:13 And so there's one other thing I kind of want to also bring up as we were talking about raising prices in this just kind of like just jogged my memory a little bit, you know, when Blake came out with his article, you know, saying that maybe there's like 5% of retailers nationwide that are actually still selling at us, Rp. And let's, let's be, let's be generous. We'll give it the 8020 rule say 20% of retailers nationwide are still selling it SRP 53:34 even if they generally are state run, you've got state run to start with, right. Okay. So then there's all them and then you've got the other ones with a lot of big retailers are doing lotteries 53:44 across the board. Even if they said rk Well, guess what the new SRP for Pappy 15 500 bucks. There's still 80% of the country that's still going to charge more than 500 bucks that's fine. Right in the 20%. That's there. Yeah, sure. little bitch, but whatever. Like, I think most people get over it. And, and not only that is most people, if they have the offer to buy a $500 bottle, most people are going to do it anyway, because that's the only time they're ever gonna get their hands on it. So I don't really see a whole lot of blowback, even if they were to raise the price in the back end. However, I've always been one to always say, you know, kudos to Sazerac and the entire portfolio of actually kind of sticking to their guns and really not raising prices across the board on any any allocated bourbon, you know, so it's, it's one thing that is cool to be the bourbon consumer and just say, like, hey, it's always a good deal. If you can find it a retailer, right? If I could find the owner to leave for $45. Cool, great deal. If it's 150. Maybe it's a pass. So that's just one of the things that, you know, over the over the years, I'm just really surprised that we stuck with him. And kind of like the last question I want to throw as regards to this. You all think other distilleries are happy with sizer x actions here or Van Winkle, his actions whoever it is to actually take down This, this singular, or should I say the big secondary market groups? 55:04 I think that's an even more interesting question, because so far nobody has jumped on board to publicly say, yeah, we're with them. We should, you know, be doing something to combat that. And maybe it is because, you know, if we look at it says rack are the leading products in the majority of that, you know, it's it's dusty bottles, and it's 55:26 sad, it says right products. 55:29 But I do think it's interesting that nobody has really kind of jump in to fight the battle with them. And you know, whether that's because they disagree or whether that's because they want to see how it you know, the consumer is going to react, I don't know, but 55:46 the longer other distilleries stay out of that fight, I think it's better for the consumer. 55:53 Well, I think here in the United States, you know, I think the market is just very, very small, relatively speaking. You know, maybe there's counterfeiting going on and other countries where it's more of a massive problem that we're just not in tune with that we don't know, you know, you see videos pop up on YouTube have these like mass production type situations where people are bottling, you know, something in in a counterfeit nature that it definitely appears to be in a different country, you know, where it's going to be, you know, sold in some black market. But here in the United States, you know, I think it's really resolved mostly to the enthusiast crowd, you know, to the crowd is trying to be istock bars and restaurants and high end places like that, you know, as a percentage of sales. I it's got to be really small. What I would really like to see and I know, you know, I know producers distilleries Listen to this. I would like to see a movement from producers and distilleries, you know, from somewhere to kind of create this market. How do we, you know, people are going to buy and sell, they're going to if this stuff is going to change hands, it's going to happen. You know, the market is going to find a way because somebody has it, somebody else will it plain and simple, that's just how it's going to work. Right? So if it's not this thing, it's going to be the next thing. So I would like to see a movement to get behind that, you know, in a way that doesn't encroach on the new production, the new businesses, stuff that does go through the three tier system, the normal way, there's plenty that doesn't, you know, there's plenty of stuff like Fred mentioned, you know, the older stuff, the stuff people find in their grandparents basements, that somebody else wants, that is of no value to the person who found it, but have tremendous value to maybe somebody else. And in some cases, maybe a lot of other people. You know, as we've seen with these charity auctions, and things of that nature, where these bottles can raise a tremendous amount of money, there's certainly a market for it. And I really believe, you know, the producers, especially the big producers should get behind that kind of, you know, they're behind the culture, if they're, you know, touting the history and those kinds of things. put your money where your mouth is, and make it so that we can have them market that everybody wants and is going to have anyway. 57:56 You know, what's funny is there was a secondary market called classified ads forever. Like, in through my research, I found so many bottles for sale and like small newspapers and people would just, you know, go and buy him but I'll say this like, Christopher Hart brought this up, Ryan and I were on his show. It'll be I think it airs this week as well. But I brought up the fact that I do think that second you know, he brought up two factors like the secondary market is will always survive in these forums in some way, shape or form. And not I do not believe that I am seeing an uptake of federal authorities getting involved with this. I mean, this is a very serious issue. The same people who were involved and taking down Big Tobacco in the 1990s you're starting to see them focus on alcohol while at the same time you have a incredible large movement within the health community try and ban advertising. So the second the all this alcohol stuff falls under kind of like two battles one you have one trying, you know, one side trying to block the lead Sales and you have another side, you know, for whatever reason they're trying to block illegal sales on the other side, you have people who are trying to ban alcohol and social media. So you've got, I mean, right now it's coming at to France. And in some ways, that's why it's kind of mark Browns head has always been a very he's always been very conservative about this. And so if like if you were to put yourself in his shoes of like you're trying to protect what you do protect your company in the best way you think is possible. You know, you may pursue something like this to prevent it. But the fact is, is what no one ever seems to grasp. Is that us, the bourbon fan, the consumer, you know, I just feel like all of these, if anything is, is going to change. It has to come from us. You know, there was a few years ago, New York tried to ban fantasy, fantasy gaming, you know, within five hours every Saturday In New York, I had heard from people in their area that never even considered politics, and they changed it just like that. Now we can all play fantasy football and make money off of it. So if if we are going to save any, you know, semblance of what the secondary market is or what a meant to us, it's got to come from us. And we have to start like, pushing it. We have to, like, you know, write our congressmen and our state senators and say, like, you know, this is an issue that's important to us. And, believe it or not, you know, if Wade Woodard and people like that multiply, I mean, who can handle 20 letters from Wade water today? 1:00:43 And Fred, I go bigger than that. I mean, the three tier system is antiquated. It's rooted in Prohibition era, sentiments and law. I mean, that whole the whole system's got to go and if part of that is a more even more robust vintage Law then we already have that really resembles what the secondary market looks like. So be it, it'll be a safer market. If folks like Sazerac and the other producers, take anti counterfeiting measures, it'll be a safer market. We've got to go to more. I mean, I'm always an open market guy. But here I really am for partly out of self interest, but that's where we've got to go. We've got to go to less regulation and more openness on it. 1:01:26 Yeah. Let's say let's stage a DC protest. Hey, hey, three teams gotta go. I don't know how 1:01:34 to go to DC and drink bourbon. 1:01:37 Next to the 30 other picketers 1:01:40 actually, what would happen is everybody would just end up with jack rose, and no one would go do anything. We pretty much 1:01:47 like that idea. 1:01:48 We need some members of Congress while we're there, though. 1:01:51 Yeah. 1:01:52 What guy with a retail license in DC so we can maybe set something up, I think, Oh, yeah. Let's do it. 1:02:00 Trying to get the RV let's go 1:02:01 gas it up 1:02:02 alright so let's go ahead we'll kind of wrap this up on a little bit higher now because this is this is the Thanksgiving episode so happy Thanksgiving everybody Hope you're if you're driving you're maybe you're just starting to try to fall asleep to some trip the fan little slip or something like that but let's go ahead and kind of go around a little bit and kind of talk about you know what we're thankful for and bourbon in 2019 if there's something that was awesome that happened to you whether it was growing or do anything like that or just laying a cool bottle 1:02:32 we're like in height 1:02:36 Sure, why not in with 1:02:39 I'll jump in. 1:02:41 So, 1:02:42 first I'm going to plug an article that's coming this week. And some bourbon are always do an article about, you know, just Thanksgiving, open up the good bottles like who cares if it has a secondary market. I think that's even more prevalent now that the secondary market is kind of fading and or unstable. So what I was trying to do is open up good bottles with family members, friends, that kind of stuff. I will be open up Happy 15 year that that'll be a part of it. No, I think, you know, Thanksgiving is great. It's time to, you know, kind of reflect a little bit. And so all in all, this has been a good year for bourbon, I think there's a whole lot more great available products on the market. You know, we're starting to hit a little bit of that, you know, people are have been scaling up for, you know, six, seven years now. So we're seeing more and more great products come on the market, and that's a good thing. Absolutely. All right. Well, here I'll go real quick. So, you know, at least for us in the podcast, you know, I'm thankful for the success that we've had this year. It's been fantastic. You know, we've had a lot of great episodes. And not only that, as I also in a selfishly have to give a shout out to our Patreon community because you know, we are now 11 months end of the year being able to take my wife away from her old job and have her work on the podcast full time fight more 1:04:07 holy cow that's all it is fight not kidding. 1:04:13 It's simple. It's very simple. 1:04:14 But no I mean it really has been it's been a blessing again for myself and the family and everything like that. So that's ultimately what I'm what I'm thinking for regard to this podcast regards to bourbon for this year, just really what is brought me 1:04:27 and I'm going to echo that I mean, we took some shit when on the round table when we did the, the the shutdown of the secondary mark and everyone doubted it because there was only one email at the time or whatever the hell it is. You guys took some grief couple weeks ago for the episode of counterfeiter, but you guys bring so much good to the bourbon world and I appreciate that and that goes for bourbon or unbreaking to. I mean, you guys, I'm sitting here with the three groups that are really leading the charge, so I'm thankful for that. The other thing I'm thankful for is still the generosity of the bourbon community, whether it's sharing a rare bottle or sending samples or those sorts of things, or doing a big event like Ryan and Fred are aware of and we're with a couple weeks ago and you get you get $375,000 in donations for bottles of bourbon and four barrels. And I was just at another charitable event this past weekend for a children's hospital where you would think that there would be where there's Dr. Money in the crowd and and great auction items, they had a house they had a BMW, all these sorts of things. And it was $218,000. So the the generosity of the bourbon community is something that has always struck me and that that I'm thankful for and thankful to be part of, 1:05:56 you know, and thank you for that comment to Brian, you know, I'll kind of rewind a little bit, you know, so Jordan, Eric and I, we met in the second grade Jordan lived down the street from me. Eric went to the same school. You know, we were friends since then. But then college all went to different places. You know, after college, I lived in different places. Incidentally, Jordan lived in Louisville, Kentucky for a little while. And when he was there, we visit we go drink bourbon, we go to distilleries, that kind of thing. Well, it didn't really click quite click, he left there and move somewhere else will you know, so we really honestly weren't talking that off. We might talk once every couple months see each other once or twice a year if that. At one point, we got together and we each had like 10 bottles of bourbon we were talking about a little bit. We went and bought way too much, and brought it all and we had this gigantic tasting years ago. And that's what kind of kicked off the idea for doing the website and kind of going from there. And it got us to the point where now you know, we're on it. it together, but pretty much talking every day on the chat and then probably talking on the phone, you know, once or twice a week, you know, and then that's transition to, you know, meeting you guys, you know, in January 2018. You know, we all get together and select a barrel, you know, and now here we are, you know, go to Kentucky get together, you know, do this, you know. So it's just, it's really, you know, I feel like bourbon has brought me together with a lot of people in my life. That's been that, you know, kind of an unintended consequence. But really, honestly, if it wasn't for that, I think I don't think I'd have the interest in bourbon that I do have, I don't think we'd still be writing about it. If we didn't have that support, if we didn't have that kind of community engagement that's around it. And then that echoes to all the people that are readers subscribers, as even if you just comment on Instagram posts, it doesn't matter. It's just that like that communication, that interaction with people that it seems to inspire is really what I think supports it supports us for what we do on a daily basis on a weekly basis. Whatever. And I think that that idea of bourbon bringing everybody together is really what makes it keep going and what makes me keep being excited about it. Nick, you're on fire 1:08:09 tonight, you'd like 1:08:12 it is a little warm in here. 1:08:13 I got I got chills there. 1:08:16 That's how I feel. I mean, really, truly, I made it. That is how I feel. I mean, it's just great that, you know, we connect on this level in and it's just great that the ball kind of keeps rolling and just it keeps getting bigger. And people keep getting excited about it. You know, it's like you don't want that to go away. You know, you don't you don't want it to be a plateau that drops off you want it to really keep going, you know and growing. 1:08:39 So I started writing about bourbon, you know, in 2006, and I was a definitely a consumer prior to that. And, you know, I tell this story a lot, but I was writing about wine at the same time and I really, I really had made it as a wine writer like I had broke some things and I was writing for spectator and wine enthusiasts I had made it and bourbon was still kind of like 2008 to 2012. If you're a writer, you couldn't really do much with it. There were a couple blogs, but there was not really a way I could support my family writing about it. So like I was writing about like technology and wine was really kind of taking off. And in 2012 I was a finalist for the International wine writer of the year, Louis rotor awards for like the under 35 category. And I'm in this room in London with like Robert Parker and Janice Robinson, all these legendary wine critics and wine makers. And I look around this room and all I thought to myself as I just want to be a Jimmy Russell, I want to be with Fred know and Parker beam. And Lincoln Henderson and I just I want to talk about bourbon. It was it was that moment in that room that I decided I wanted to leave wine Focus on bourbon. And so I kind of just threw up, put all my cards and into bourbon and in 2012 and it's been one of the greatest decisions I ever made. But I could not do it without, without the support of my family. I mean, what I do is I travel a lot. My wife is absolutely amazing, even though she steals most of my good bourbon when I'm out of town. True, true story. She's always making whiskey sours with like something that I spent a lot of money on to include rare vintage bottles, so I got to figure out how to hide those better. But if it wasn't for her, I mean, I would have given up a long time ago. And if you've ever read one of my books or a blog post or liked anything, I love you, man. I really appreciate it. But I'm also really thankful for Ryan and Kenny Like, you all, you all listening, you know, we kind of go back and forth and everything, but I feel like we've really, we've really become pretty good friends in the past year and that counterfeiting that counterfeiting episode. We really bonded over that. And I take, I take 100% of all the criticism that came from that because I did feel I came off very unprofessional because I mostly wanted to strangle the guys neck and it came off pretty, obviously. And I didn't let Ryan and Kenny get a lot of their questions in and you know what? They were just like, we're a team. We're a team. We're a team. And so I'm really thankful for those two knuckleheads. You got it for you. 1:11:49 There's a there's an important question that Jason Nutter wants to know and is that are you thankful for vodka 1:11:57 breaking pockets calm Fred wrote it. 1:12:01 thankful there's something to hate out there. 1:12:03 Yeah, you know what I really do? I really do think it's important to hate something in social media. Most people hate on a politician. I hate vodka so 1:12:14 fair enough 1:12:17 All right, I guess that leaves me huh second that Fred up in extremely grateful for this relationship you know us Don't you joining the team I think it's been an incredible ride and you've given us opportunities that I still can't even like wrap my head around like me being a host or Kenny and I being a host of insane bourbon panels at a major Rock Festival and you look out in the crowd, and there's, like 30,000 50,000 people and I'm just like, so grateful the opportunities you've given us and given us Metallica concerts like we're five rows from the from like, what's his name the Napster killer dude and You know, we're by these like hardcore fans and Kenny and I are in like our Patagonia jackets, we look so awkward. And it was such an awesome time though. And like, just, I'm so grateful for everything you've done for us. And I'm so grateful for Kenny and Lauren and everything they've done for this show. I mean, this was my idea, but I could never have envisioned it being what it is. It's insane. We have people, a great Patreon community that just continues to support us and continues to grow. And it's and they come on barrel pixma they come off, you know, to liquor stores to meet as they come in. And I don't take that for granted ever. It's surreal. And I'm like humbled by it. And I just I just so thankful that Kenny and Lauren and Fred have been involved to take this to where it has and then the bourbon Community Roundtable I mean, the relationships we build, I mean, holy cow, I mean, like you guys hanging out with the all the festivals, doing the pics like It's just so much fun and like the bond that we have together, it's, it's just Words cannot describe how much greatest happened in this this podcast that I dreamed of when I was driving down in between jobs and spring lines. And now it's this. And so I just want to say thank you to everyone, and I'm just so thankful for it all. And I hope it never goes away. 1:14:25 Absolutely. I do love like having us as a group of guys and friends that, you know, we can all get together and we're not like, so how's your day job? Like, we don't ever ask that, you know? 1:14:35 Wait, everyone has data? What's your real job 1:14:39 to actually do? 1:14:42 This is it. Absolutely. So, you know, again, thank you, everybody, for coming on the roundtable tonight and talking. You know, I think we had a good list of questions. You know, Sazerac if you're out there. We're always willing to let somebody come on and kind of we'd love to have the transparency out there. I think the The community really wants to hear from you. And I think, I think I think everybody would really just love to be able to kind of hear, as Fred said, the business side of it as well. And then also, again, thank you to everybody that joined us in chat. I think we had close to around 83 concurrent viewers was peak is where we were so that's awesome. I didn't hit 100. But we got close. Have a great Happy Thanksgiving. And we will see everybody next week. Cheers, y'all. Here's Transcribed by https://otter.ai
28 Nov 2019
189 - Turkey Tell All with Eddie Russell
Eddie Russell from Wild Turkey needs no introduction. He’s one of the most honest Master Distillers in the industry and tells it like it is. This episode digs into the nuances of the Wild Turkey line up to see if we can figure out what could change. The biggest answer we all want to know is when will there be a barrel proof Russell’s Reserve? Tune in to find out. Show Partners: At Barrell Craft Spirits, every batch they produce has a distinct flavor profile. They take pride in blending and preserving spirits for the people who enjoy them the most, you. You can find it on the shelf at your nearest retail store. Receive $25 off your first order with code "Pursuit" at RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: The week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about value whiskey. How often are you going to Jimmy with questions? Do you feel like you have the job down? When you retire do you think you will hang around the distillery like Jimmy? Do you feel like you have to work at the distillery? Since you travel so much, what airline are you loyal to? When you travel, do you wear Wild Turkey gear? Are there any travel destinations that have stood out to you? Do you get to have any fun when you travel? Are there any plans for changing barrel proof entry? How can you not get 101 proof out of bourbon that goes in a 110? What is the thought process behind where in the rickhouse you place the barrels to age? Is 108 your target for Rare Breed? How many barrels are being dumped into Rare Breed? Talk about the warehouses. Do you see a difference in the whiskey coming out of the brick warehouses? How often do you get the chance to take a gamble? Do you see 81 still being prevalent in the market place? How many more derivatives do you think you can do? Are you wanting to bring in another recipe? Will we ever see a barrel strength Russell's Reserve? Do you enjoy picking barrels with consumers? Talk about the proof difference between Wild Turkey Kentucky Spirit and Russell's Reserve. Tell us about the partnership with Matthew McConaughey. Is it a goal to bring back the 8-year-old age statement?
21 Feb 2019
058 - Tim Judge, Global Ambassador for Bulleit Bourbon
Tim Judge, Global Ambassador for Bulleit Bourbon, dives into the Bulleit Bourbon origination and all the new expansion taking place. Tell us about your journey into whiskey Why did you choose Bulleit as your spirit of choice in the portfolio? What lessons did you take away from Tom after meeting him? We’ve had plenty of ambassadors on the show that talk about going around t different places and telling bartenders about their bourbon or attending events and handing out cocktails. but you’re a “global” ambassador, what more does that entail? You also have passion outside of spirits, talk about that For those folks who are unfamiliar, which I think would be pretty hard to do at this point, tell people about Bulleit bourbon. Also let’s talk individually about the different expressions that are available. and what makes each unique or special. sort of the pitch that you would do during a tasting event. Bulliet Bourbon has the tagline that says “Frontier Whiskey”. The thing of it is, you would probably never want to drink Frontier Whiskey And marketing plays a heavy role in the label positioning as well, talk about that. Bulleit is now owned by Diageo and is hypothesized to be distilled by Four Roses. However, mistake me if I’m wrong, I believe that the agreement or contract with Four Roses is going to be coming to an end and distillation is going to be moving to the Bulleit Frontier experience at the acclaimed Stitzel-Weller Distillery. Do you see a change in the flavor profile coming as new operations come online? We had Carol Perry back on the show back in episode 23 and you had the opportunity to meet with him. What did you think? Back to you, a lot of people here in the states are starting their own bourbon and whiskey collections, trying to round up as many as they can for the fun of tasting and even for potential profit, do you have a big collection yourself? This is a question from Blake @ bourbonr.com - if you want to make some classic bourbon cocktails, what are some of the ingredients you should always have on hand?
29 Jul 2016
099 - Fred Minnick, Bourbon Author, Pundit and Expert
Download Fred Minnick, Bourbon Author, Pundit, and Expert, joins us to discuss the San Francisco Spirits Competition, asking if bourbon is just a gimmick when it comes to experimentation, how the new vintage spirits law will effect Louisville, and if pricing has gone out of whack! We are looking for partnerships to help support the podcast. Get more information at http://bourbonpursuit.com/partner-with-us/ Show Notes: So what’s new since the last time we chatted? What are you doing for the Bourbon and Beyond Festival? I hear there is a Bourbon Cruise? You’re also going to be at Forecastle Let’s talk about the new Dusty law So lets talk about San Francisco. Lets talk about the upsets. Who doesn't get a golden medal or a star? Is bourbon turning into a gimmick for releases? Can we stop it with the experimentation? At what point does it go to far? Pricing is out of whack. How do we as consumers fix this? w944ha2q
16 Jun 2017
138 - The Truth About Unicorns, Bottle Collections, and Spirit Awards with Bourbon Truth
He might be the angriest man in bourbon and ruffles a lot of feathers along the way, but he's been enjoying the spirit longer than most of us. Bourbon Truth, or known as Lloyd Christmas on twitter, is well known for his jabs at the industry. In this episode, we talk about his disdain for shelf trophies, if the current market is overinflated, his opinion on how spirit awards are rigged, and even touch on apple brandy. He's back with another no non-sense episode about the harsh reality we often overlook. Danner has been making boots for 85 years for the unforgiving Pacific Northwest. Their Stronghold series is inspired by hikers but built for the toughest working conditions. Find your local store at danner.com. State of Logic Podcast connect the dots on relevant topics with interesting people as their guests. They explore recent books, culture, movies, science, politics and other random thoughts about life. Show Notes: Also appeared on Episode 094 How has bourbon changed since we last talked? How dumb are people getting that they are buying partial bottles? What are your thoughts on WhistlePig and their pricing strategy? What bottles are collectibles for you? You said that you hate people that buy bottles as investments but it actually worked out for you. Do you think you sold your collection too early? Are prices just at the top ? Are unicorns going to go up? What are some of those bottles you would sell already open? You mentioned KY Owl and it's pricing, do you see that as a long term investment for that particular brand after their Stoli funding? Why do you think people feel the need to sell half-open bottles? You had a funny tweet that said "Reviewers have so many different ways of saying 'the booze sucks'" The Whiskey Advocate changed their whiskey review system with their original score and panel score so it's flawed. Are those spirit awards just BS now? Because the most favorited spirits don't enter anymore Is the problem that they are sending single barrels or limited expressions most people won't have access to? What do you see as the movement of craft? Are bad ones ruining the reputation for the majority of them? Are you jumping on the rum train too? We haven't heard people talk about brandy much How bad has Van Winkle quality gone down in recent years? Allocations are becoming very scandalous
1 Mar 2018