What We’re Tasting is a weekly podcast from Wine Enthusiast. Three highly rated wines are the focus of each episode, providing a jumping off point for deeper discussion of a country, region, grape, producer, and style. Our expert guests will entertain and educate, adding personal insight and experience to help you increase your wine knowledge. We’ll also go beyond the bottle to discuss food pairing, wine country travel, and trends.
Rank #1: 1:6 Embracing Lodi Wines, Unique Grapes and Ancient Vines .
In this episode Jameson speaks with Wine Enthusiast contributing editor Jim Gordon about how Zinfandel reigns supreme in the eyes of many, but Lodi wines are astonishingly diverse. Wines Discussed: @4:48 Klinker Brick 2017 Albariño (Lodi) @8:08 Scotto Family Cellars 2017 Dry Sangiovese Rosé (Lodi) @14:18 Jessie's Grove 2015 Ancient Vine Carignane (Lodi) Transcript: Jameson Fink: Welcome to Wine Enthusiast's What We're Tasting podcast. I'm your host, Jameson Fink. Join me as we discuss three fantastic wines and why each one belongs in your glass. This episode, we're looking at the wines of Lodi, with wine enthusiast contributing editor, Jim Gordon, who covers and reviews wines from the region. What We're Tasting is sponsored by Vivino. With the largest online inventory, Vivino finds the right wine every time, including lots from Lodi. Download Vivino to discover and buy your favorites, and stock up at Vivino.com/wineenthusiast. So while I was doing some reading on Lodi, doing a little reading up, a little research, a little due diligence, I came across this phrase, and this is the phrase: Something subversive is afoot in the vineyards of Lodi, California. When I read that, the first thing I thought about was actually Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, the part where they say, "Something strange is afoot at the Circle K." But this is not about Bill and Ted. We're here to talk about wine in Lodi, and actually, my guest Jim wrote that line, not about Bill and Ted, but about Lodi, and I think it was really great because a lot of people still consider Lodi ... they look through the lens of bulk wines, mass produced wines, nothing but jammy Zinfandels, etc. etc. But that's really ... I mean, it's part of the story, of course, but what's really exciting about Lodi is what's going on there with what we might call underdog grapes, and people doing really interesting and exciting things. So, I'm excited to have Jim here to talk about Lodi and get to know it a little better, and sort of that hidden, subversive, underdog Lodi that's happening right now. So Jim, welcome to the show. Jim Gordon: Thank you, Jameson. Happy to be here. Jameson Fink: And you know, when I was ... I was in Lodi two years ago, and that was my first time there, and I was at a wine reception for the wine blogger's conference. It was 100 degrees there, not surprising, it's pretty hot there, and I was seeking out well-chilled white wines. And I was really impressed with ... I had a Grenache Blanc and a Vermentino there, and I didn't expect to have either of those wines. Maybe I was naïve and I had a lot to learn, that wouldn't be surprising, but I thought it was a really exciting tasting that I discovered all these interesting new white wines. Can you kind of just talk about the breadth and depth of grapes that are being grown there besides the usual suspects? Just give me a few. Start me off with a few to tantalize me. Jim Gordon: Yeah, sure. You know, the region has been known for almost commodity level Cabernet, Merlot, Chardonnay, etc. But, there's Albariño, there's Vermentino as you said, there's Kerner, there's Teroldego, there's Cinsault from 120 year old vines, Carignan. Some of those have been there forever, you know, decades if not a century, but many others have been planted in the last several years to make Lodi a lot more interesting place. Jameson Fink: And why do you think winemakers are attracted to these grapes in Lodi versus Cabernet or Merlot or Chardonnay? What's the appeal in your mind? Jim Gordon: I kind of think they're trying to go 180 degrees from what people think of Lodi. People think of it producing sort of fat, lazy Zinfandels or big Chardonnays that are kind of soft and buttery. I think a lot of them are trying to do something the opposite of that, like crisp or tannic or biting or more vivid, not just a big softy like the mass market ones, but something more artisanal, more interesting, more intellectual in a way. Jameson Fink: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I guess I want to back up. I don't know if a lot of people even know where Lodi is. It's not far from Sacramento, correct? Jim Gordon: True, it's south of Sacramento, and almost due east of Napa. I live in Napa, and it's an hour and a half drive roughly to Lodi. It's an interesting place. It's in the northern ... basically the northern end of the San Joaquin Valley. It's just on the edge of the Sacramento and San Joaquin River Delta, where it's kind of a bayou area of California, where it's basically at sea level. So, even though it's inland and it does get hot, but it has the water. When you have water and hot land, you have breezes, so it's not as hot as you would think. It's nothing like the southern San Joaquin Valley, more like around Madera or Fresno. This is quite different than the northern part. Jameson Fink: So you mentioned earlier Albariño, and the first wine I wanted to talk about was the Klinker Brick 2017 Albariño, which you gave 89 points to. Can you talk about ... I mean, I know Albariño from Spain mostly. Is the grape similar there in Lodi? Is it producing a similar style of wine, something different, or is it a little bit of both? Jim Gordon: This one is more similar to what you would find in Spain or Portugal I think, than most would be, which is why I liked it. It's refreshing, it's crisp, there's low alcohol, relatively, 12.8%, and that's why I liked it. I think I described it a lot like one would describe some Albariños from the Iberian Peninsula. So I think they purposefully picked the grapes early enough so it didn't get too high in alcohol, too full in body, and they got something that's really refreshing, mouthwatering. Jameson Fink: Yeah, you said it's a great antidote to rich and oaky wines. Jim Gordon: Yeah, perfect. Jameson Fink: Although, I do like rich and oaky wines. I have a soft spot for those. But I am a liberal. I like light, crisp, fresh, rich and oaky, everything in between. Jim Gordon: Yeah, me too. I like some of each. I want crisp and fresh on a hot summer day, and depending on the weather or the food, I like fat and buttery as well. Jameson Fink: Yeah, I'm gonna make this a podcast feature where I complain about the heat, because it's like 85 degrees here today, so that wine sounds really, really good today. I think that's also interesting about the lower alcohol levels. Like you said, it's under 13%, which maybe you probably wouldn't associate with Lodi. I mean, I might think, oh everything's gonna be 15% or 16% or something crazy outrageous, but is there a movement ... I mean, just in general in Lodi or beyond, are you seeing people sort of ... wine drinkers saying, "Hey, I want something lower in alcohol." Or winemakers are saying, "You know what? I'm gonna pick a little earlier and make a wine that's less alcoholic." Jim Gordon: Yes. I think people are demanding it, some people are, and I think winemakers in general in California, which is where I live and where I cover wine for Wine Enthusiast, have backed off on the high alcohol that they were doing five to 10 years ago. Not radically ... so, let's say a typical vintage now is a few tenths of a point lower in alcohol than it used to be, plus, wineries, many of them, like this Albariño there, are producing new wines that are more crisp and lower in body. So, it's partly what they've done to the line of wines, say, well, we've already been making, but also coming up with new varietals or new styles. Jameson Fink: Yeah, absolutely. So, Albariño is definitely a grape ... I mean, we're looking at Lodi, there's a wine region I think in the Columbia Gorge, bordering Washington and Oregon always says we have everything from Albariño to Zinfandel. And I want to talk about another grape that maybe is a little unusual to see in Lodi or really in the United States as much as say like, Italy, and that's Sangiovese. And I thought it was really interesting to see a Rosé made from that. The second wine that I wanted you to talk about was the Scotto Family Cellars' 2017 dry Sangiovese Rosé, which you gave 88 points to. Jim Gordon: It was a really interesting, dry Sangiovese in the Rosé mode. It was relatively low in alcohol for California, 13%, but I liked it because of the sort of grip that Sangiovese gives you. I mean, in the Chianti or super Tuscan blends that have Sangiovese as a red wine, it's known for tannin and acid and kind of a really grippy feel on your palette. And a little touch of that comes along with the Rosé, which I appreciate the ... Rosé is so popular now, and in California, practically every winery is making a Rosé or two, but it hasn't really settled into a style for this valley or that valley. Everybody's using different varieties. Some are darker reds, some are light reds, some are crisp, some are fat like barrel fermented even Rosés. This one I liked because it's crisp, it has a sort of tangy, slightly tannic mouth feel, and to me that's palette cleansing and refreshing. Jameson Fink: Yeah, you talk about a Rosé, I mean, it's just such a ... the category has just exploded and it's still growing. How prevalent is Rosé in Lodi, and is it something that's just happened over the last few years? Or have they been making Rosé in Lodi and we just didn't know about it? Jim Gordon: It's relatively new in terms of today's type of Rosé. I'll bet you in the 70s they were making Rosé in Lodi, but it would have been something quite different. Jameson Fink: Yeah, like a white Zinfandel ... sweet. Jim Gordon: Yeah, exactly. That was the commercial mainstay of Lodi for some years, providing grapes for white Zinfandel. You know, they've had a revolution there in wine making since that period, and I guess this Rosé is just one example of the stuff they're doing now. Jameson Fink: One of the things that you talked about briefly was the abundance of old vines in Lodi, and I think when I visited, that was the thing that blew me away is to see these vines from the 19th century, these grizzled, gnarled ... they're almost like supernatural looking, like hobbit forest or something ... Well, hobbit forest would be friendly, these are a little more mysterious and sinister looking. I think one of the best vineyard visits I've ever had is we went to the Bechthold Vineyard, and to see these old Cinsault vines, really amazing. Can you talk about the old vine heritage in Lodi? Is that in danger? Because I keep hearing that wineries are having to pull out these old vines to plant things that are more profitable. Is there a drive to save these old vines? Jim Gordon: Yeah, it's an interesting issue right now. Lodi does have lots of old vines, you know, hundreds of acres I would say, if not a thousand or more of vines probably older than 50 years. I don't know the numbers offhand, but intermixed with much more recently planted vineyards that are more commercially profitable and make sense for the people. One thing to mention here is that so many of the grape growers in Lodi are family farms, and they're like in their fourth, fifth, or sixth generation. So, their ancestors came in the 1860s or 70s, maybe they tried panning for gold in the Sierra hills and mountains, and then they came back down to Lodi and became farmers. So they're there. They own the same properties in many cases that their families have been farming for generations. So, they have old vines, they've kept some of them, and they've kept them on the places where those vines grew well and produce a good crop and make high quality wine. So, the old vines in many cases have been preserved because they were special. The ones that made so-so wine have probably been ripped up or replanted with other varieties. I know what you're saying too about just the presence of being in the old gnarled vines, and many of the vineyards in Lodi, they train ... the older vines were trained up higher than you would see in most of California or Europe, so they're almost ... they're the size of a person with all these arms hanging out, and they're a little bit scary, but they're a little bit comforting, like the Ent who saved the Hobbit. They're more like that, I think. Jameson Fink: Yeah, well I guess I was on the right path when I said ... when I brought Lord of the Rings and Hobbits into them. It's more of an Ent thing. Jim Gordon: Right, right. Jameson Fink: That's true, they are taller. They're not like those ... I mean, you look at vines [inaudible 00:12:54], and they're really low to the ground. I guess that's also because of the windy conditions there too that they would just sort of ... it's more protected the closer to the ground it is. Jim Gordon: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And it is basically pretty fertile soil in most of the Lodi area. They could grow other crops there, and they have over the years, but now the emphasis has really been on wine grapes for a couple, two or three decades. But regarding the ... maybe a threat to the old vines, there is an economic threat because these families who run the farms need to make enough money to pay the bills and have a decent life, and when you're harvesting old vines, the yields are very low. So on an acre, maybe you get a ton or two tons of grapes, but on the vineyard next to it that's being farmed ... it could be organic or sustainably even, but they can get much higher yields with newer vines and new training methods for the trellis and all that. So you know, they could get eight tons next door, and wineries don't really pay a lot more for the old vine fruit. It's kind of a bargain. That's why I think a lot of smaller, as I said before, artisanal wineries are seeking out these small blocks of old vines from Lodi to make something interesting with. Jameson Fink: Yeah, that's why for the third wine I chose the Jessie's Grove 2015 Ancient Vine Carignane, 90 points, that ... you know, just to focus on one of these wines that the old vine stock that they have. Can you talk about this wine and as far as your feelings on these really old vines, what kinds of wines do they make? Is it just romantic, or do they really give something special in the glass? Jim Gordon: They do, they often do. You can't always taste it, but sometimes you can. I just think it's a purity of fruit. I think smart winemakers doing old vines don't put much new oak on the wine to mess with it. Just let the quality of the fruit come through. What the growers say is just that the old vines are very stable. They have deep roots, they've been growing for years, if there's funny conditions in the weather one year, it doesn't affect them as much as it would a new vine that's shallow rooted, etc. So, they're just steady producers. I just find a purity, a fruit, a focus, kind of a seamlessness in the flavors and the texture, to make a very broad generalization. Jameson Fink: And I know out there there's certainly a lot of old vine Zinfandel there, and I feel like maybe I've painted it with too broad a stroke, but can you talk about ... is Zinfandel changing in Lodi? Is there a diversity of styles and flavors now or do I just have a bad stereotype of monolithic Zinfandel? Jim Gordon: Well, it is changing. I mean, on the one hand, you have Michael David Winery making these fabulous, showy wines out of Zinfandel, Petite Sirah, like the Earthquake Zin and the Seven Deadly Zins, and those have been great. They're dramatic, they use a lot of new oak, but they're really well done. And they've sort of created a category of high quality Lodi Zinfandel, which is helping a lot of growers because they buy from a lot of growers to make Michael David Wines. So, that's really been a good engine for Lodi in terms of making a good livelihood for the growers. But on the other hand, you have the Lodi native Zinfandel project, which is a handful of mostly small production wineries making these really pure, straightforward, no new oak, wild yeast, no water addition, no acid addition really elegant, cool wines. They label them as Lodi native, and they all have a similar label. That's real exciting. And those wines are terrific without being super showy. So, you've got real showy on one end, you've got more elegant and native on the other. Jameson Fink: Yeah, I got to try the native wines when I was out there, the Zinfandels, and yeah, they were definitely an eye opener. I think also the interesting thing was all the winemakers were there and they were talking about when they were being approached for this project and sort of the way they had to work was a way that they weren't used to working, or some of them were kind of candid like, you know, I didn't think this would work, or I think I would need to use this or pick then or use this oak or X, Y, and Z. So, I really appreciated hearing their stories and kind of the candor they had about, hey, this idea ... like everyone wasn't just like, "This sounds great. Let's change the way we're making Zinfandel." So, I thought that was a really interesting bellwether for the region. Jim Gordon: Yeah, I sat with a group of them when I wrote an article for the Enthusiast a couple of years ago about the Lodi native wines, and they were telling the stories. Some of them were not confident they could make a really good wine without intervening more, and they had to pick it earlier than they had ever perhaps, so the alcohol wouldn't be too high, and it was a learning experience for them, kind of learning by doing, and they more or less proved to themselves that they could do it. Jameson Fink: Yeah, and that article about Lodi native Zin and also the underdog grapes of Lodi, those are both at winemag.com too, and they're both well worth reading because they're both a story of Zinfandel and of Lodi and grapes in general that I think people haven't heard of from the region. And I had sort of a ... you know, when I was back in New York, I had sort of a Lodi eye opening moment too. This might come as a shock to you, I was at kind of a hipster, natural wine bar, and- Jim Gordon: No way! Jameson Fink: ... I know, I know. It's crazy ... with a couple friends, and the Turley Cinsault was on the list. I had had it before in Lodi, and it was served chilled ... well, first of all 'cause it was 100 degrees, so it was a really smart move anyway, because I wanted nothing to do with any red wine at all. So it was served cold, pretty cold actually, and I was like, wow, this is really lightweight and kind of almost see through, and really delicious. I was with two of my friends who love drinking lighter style wines, natural wines, you know, and I said, "Hey, let's get a bottle of the Turley Cinsault," and they looked at me like, "What?" 'Cause I think they figured it would be ... whatever, 16% alcohol Zinfandel or something like that. And I said, "Hey, and also bring an ice bucket." We had it chilled, and they were just blown away by it, and that was another thing too, where you think a region is monolithic and it's only about one thing, but when you look a little harder, there's lots of little pockets of people doing really interesting things. Jim Gordon: Yeah, I've had the same experience, similar experience, with the Cinsault. Are you speaking about from the Bechthold Vineyard? Jameson Fink: Exactly. Jim Gordon: Yeah. And a few different wineries use that fruit and make their own Cinsaults, and several of them, they're almost like Pinot Noir. They're elegant, they're kind of ethereal, they're not very dark colored ... even though it's a Roan grape variety. They made something kind of beautiful out of it. Jameson Fink: What do you think about Lodi as far as visiting? You know, you're in Napa. What's the Lodi experience like when you visit? It must be a lot different than obviously what Napa's like. Jim Gordon: It is. There are a lot of visitors now. There are ... I'm making it up ... 35 wineries you can visit, tasting rooms, something like that, and the town of Lodi itself has a cool district with cafés and bars and restaurants. It's big open farmland, these great old farm houses sitting on 400 acres down a long lane surrounded by trees to keep cool in the houses. So, it's a bucolic americana landscape, kind of different from lots of Napa and Sonoma that are very gentrified. It's just a little slower paced and relaxed. Jameson Fink: Yeah, that reminds me, I forgot, sort of my biggest wow wine when I was at the wine blogger's conference there a couple years ago was a Lucas Winery Chardonnay from 2001, and you know, we were at lunch and all these wines were going around. I was like, wow, the 2001 Chardonnay from Lodi, I just thought that was like audacious and bold to pour. But it was great. I just couldn't believe how good it was. To me, that was ... and also, you know, I'm kind of whatever, chasing weird grapes like ... well, not weird, but a little more unusual like Grenache Blanc, and so like Chardonnay ... and it was really good. I mean, it just shows that you kind of ... That's a great reason to visit a wine region is that you kind of have an idea in your head of what it's about or what's available around you, and then you go there and you try things that aren't maybe commercially available, certainly an old vintage like that, or you discover wineries like Fields Family Wines or Uvaggio making all these really interesting things, and all of a sudden you're like, wow, my Lodi view has changed. Jim Gordon: Uvaggio is a great example. They make this really spectacular Passito, dessert wine, and I think it was from Vermentino, which was fabulous. On the other hand, they make a dry Muscat, and you expect Muscat to be sweet, Vermentino to be dry. They turned it around and really two interesting wines from whit grapes. Jameson Fink: The Vermentino and the Muscat are great. So Jim, thanks for joining me and talking about Lodi, the diversity of grapes there, and also the fact that, hey, there's Zinfandel there too, and it's also worth paying attention to even though they make a lot of it. There's people doing really interesting and exciting things, and my only regret is when I visited that you weren't around in town and we couldn't hang out for a little bit. I was disappointed by that, Jim. Jim Gordon: Well, we did get together afterward. Jameson Fink: We did, we did. Thanks again for joining me today, Jim. Jim Gordon: My pleasure. Jameson Fink: And thank you for listening to the What We're Tasting podcast, sponsored by Vivino, wine made easy. The three wines we talked about today are: The Klinker Brick 2017 Albariño, Scotto Family Cellars' 2017 dry Sangiovese Rosé, and Jessie's Grove 2015 Ancient Vine Carignane. Find What We're Tasting on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you find podcasts. And if you liked today's episode, please give us a five star rating on iTunes, leave a comment, and tell your friends. What We're Tasting is a Wine Enthusiast podcast. Check out Wine Enthusiast online at WineMag.com
Rank #2: 1:3 The Charms and Challenges of New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc.
In this episode Jameson speaks with Wine Enthusiast Contributing Editor Christina Pickard about how Sauvignon Blanc put New Zealand on the world wine map. But is it a one-trick pony or are there new discoveries and surprises when it comes to how, and where it’s made? Wines Discussed: 4:07 Nautilus 2017 Sauvignon Blanc (Marlborough) 11:17 Clos Henri 2017 Petit Clos Sauvignon Blanc (Marlborough) 17:53 Peregrine 2017 Sauvignon Blanc (Central Otago) Transcript Jameson Fink: 00:04 Welcome to Wine Enthusiasts, What We're Tasting podcast. I'm your host Jameson Fink. Join me as we discuss three fantastic wines and why each one belongs in your glass. This episode I'm exploring New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc with contributing editor, Christina Pickard, who covers and reviews wines from the region. What we're tasting is sponsored by Vivino. Vivino is the world's largest online wine marketplace, powered by a community of 30 million thirsty wine drinkers. Use the Vivino app to engage with 2 million wines, including loads of New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc, every single day. Many countries have established themselves on the world wine stage through one grape that caught the imagination of everyone. I can think of, in recent times, Shiraz from Australia, Malbec from Argentina. Today, I'm most interested in, of course, Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand, and how it's captured the world's imagination, and taking a closer look at the grape. Christina, thank you for being here. I'm gonna start a little philosophically with a question. What is the appeal, do you think, of New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc? Why has it become such a worldwide phenomenon? Christina P.: 01:23 I think there was a critic, and I can't even quote this critic specifically because I don't know who it was, but one critic said, " Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand was like having sex for the first time." That might sum it up. Jameson Fink: 01:34 Wow, I did not expect that answer. Christina P.: 01:40 Another one described the experience of drinking it as being strapped naked to insert super model of your choice, while bungee jumping into a bottomless pit of fresh gooseberry leaves. Jameson Fink: 01:53 I did not expect that either. That is not the direction I thought this would go. What would you say is the appeal of New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc? Christina P.: 02:02 I mean, look, I think it is crisp. It's zippy. It's really, pretty aromatics. It's just really likable, and in a fairly obvious way. In a super gluggable way. Right now, it's 85 degrees and humid, as we're recording this, and I'm thinking about a glass of New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. I'm like, "Yeah. That would hit the spot right now." It's great in the heat. It's great for hot weather. In the summer, you can chill it down as much as you want. I think, it's just that that combination of being incredibly outgoing as a style, and a grape variety. An incredibly likable. It's a gateway drug, in a way, for a lot of wine lovers. I know for me it was. A lot of people tell me the same thing. "Oh yeah. I started my wine journey with Kiwi Sauvignon Blanc." Jameson Fink: 02:58 That's funny, my mom is a red wine drinker, but she looks at New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc as her lawnmower wine, like a lawnmower beer. Once a year when she ... she doesn't have a lawn anymore to mow, but when she did, that would be her wine of choice. It had that thirst slaking appeal. Christina P.: 03:17 Totally. It's also really grassy, that's one of it's main flavor profiles. I feel like mowing the lawn while drinking a really grassy wine is incredibly appropriate. Jameson Fink: 03:27 Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. I don't think she was doing it simultaneously, but definitely fresh cut grass is very New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. Yeah, maybe that was part of it. She was overcome by fresh cut grass aromas, and the only thing- Christina P.: 03:39 She just needed to run in the kitchen and grab a glass. Christina P.: 03:46 I was picturing her, like one hand on the lawnmower, a glass in the other hand. Jameson Fink: 03:47 We encourage two handed lawn mowing, and not wine drinking. Even on the riding mower, too. Keep both hands ... keep both hands on the mower. Christina P.: 03:54 Yeah. Jameson Fink: 03:55 Public service announcement. Speaking about the first wine I wanted to talk about is, I guess, a classic textbook example of what we're talking about. It's the Nautilus 2017 Sauvignon Blanc from the Marlborough Region, 90 points. I guess, you can't talk about New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc, without talking about Marlborough. Can you talk about that region's place in the history of New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc? Christina P.: 04:23 Absolutely. I mean, yeah, Marlborough and Sauvignon Blanc, I think, are completely synonymous, as you said. It is, by far, the region that produces more Sauvignon Blanc than anywhere else in New Zealand, and actually produces more wine in general. Sauvignon Blanc makes up ... I don't want to quote exact stats, 'cause they're changing all the time, but it's something like 75 or 80% of their production is Sauvignon Blanc. It's a huge, huge product for them, from an export perspective, you know, domestically as well. At the heart of that is Marlborough. They are producing the wines here, by far, of this great variety and this style. Really, Sauvignon Blanc, as we know it from New Zealand, really started from this country, so, if you're going to start anywhere with this grape variety, I would say this is the perfect place to start. It's certainly the easiest to get a hold of from this region, as well. Jameson Fink: 05:20 Geographically, Marlborough is the northern tip of the southern island. Christina P.: 05:25 Exactly. The northeast tip. It's really split into two valleys. The Awatere Valley, which is cooler, there's more stonier soils, a little bit more maritime influence there. Stylistically, it's not huge difference, but you do tend to see a little bit more of a herbaceous style. Maybe a little crisper. Maybe a little more detectably higher acids. It's often compared to Sancerre, a little bit in style. I think it's like Sancerre on steroids. Kind of like, New World, a little bit more bold, brash flavors there. Definitely the more herbaceous, I think, of the two. Then, you get the Wairau Valley, which is just really wide river valley following the Wairau River. That's really split with ... it's separated between the Richmond Mountains, and that separates it from Nelson, which is another wine region that produces a lot of Sauvignon Blanc. That's a bit sunnier, a little bit warmer climactically. Then the Wither Hills in the south, that protects it from those harsh weather systems coming out of the southeast, and off the ocean, as well. Jameson Fink: 06:41 You call this wine, the Nautilus, a wine for oysters, if there ever was one. What else do you like food pairing wise, with New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc? Christina P.: 06:53 I mean, everything. Every kind of seafood under the sun, basically. Any kind of fish. Smoked scallops. Salmon is great with it. Then, I also love asparagus. Again, this is a flavor that you actually see in the wine, as well. Asparagus is often one of those flavor characteristics that comes up a lot in describing Kiwi Sauvignon. Asparagus, I like more of a buttery or a creamy sauce, 'cause all that acid from the Sauvignon Blanc seems to cut through that. Just salad, you know, summery salads with berries, or green beans. You could also do it with a little bit heavier food, too, like seafood risotto or paella or something. Watermelon gazpacho is one that seems to get paired with it a bunch. That sounds really good right now. Jameson Fink: 07:42 I'm also glad you mentioned asparagus, because I feel like when I was learning about wine, and you still read this kind of stuff, like "Asparagus is impossible to pair with wine." I actually had that written down. Asparagus in all caps, in bold. I think Sauvignon Blanc, and especially New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc is wonderful with asparagus, and it's not impossible to pair. Strike that from your wine rules. Christina P.: 08:06 Yeah. Oh yeah. Totally. I mean, 'cause asparagus has got a pretty strong flavor, so I could understand it would overpower a lot of wines. I think that this, particularly Kiwi Sauvignon Blanc is so, so brash and bold, in it's flavors, that I think it holds up really well. Actually, a geeky side note, a lot of those asparagus and bell pepper flavors that are detectable in this style of wines, come from this methoxypyrazines. Pyrazines are these aroma compounds, and you find them in a lot of the Bordeaux family grapes, like Loire Cabernet Franc, and Cabernet Sauvignon. When they're done well, it's all about canopy management and pruning. Viticulturists can actually control how much of those flavors that are gonna end up in the final wine, hopefully, assuming the vintage is good, by pruning, and by controlling the leafy part of the vines to tweak those aromas. When they're done well you get, like I say, the bell pepper, asparagus, the mint, and basil. When they're done badly, you start to get this mushy, mushy asparagus, or overripe peppers, that's not really that pleasant. I think it's a quality in the line that I really like, personally. Jameson Fink: 09:16 Yeah, I really ... I'm pro-pyrazine. I'm a big fan of pyrazines. Not like an overload of them, I don't know how I would measure that, but I like those kinds of flavors in my wine. I know they can be very outputting and polarizing for some people. In fact, Sauvignon Blanc, it's funny, there are a lot of people I talk to who are wine pros, work in the business, and they don't like Sauvignon Blanc at all. It seems like it's like the most polarizing white wine grape I can think of. Christina P.: 09:41 I think because as a style, it's fairly obvious. I don't necessarily mean that to be a derogatory statement. I just think it's ... that's why I call it a gateway wine, because it's, for a lot of wine lovers, it's a wine that you start with because of its obviousness. It's because it's so out there. It's such an extroverted style, that in the beginning it's really charming and it really draws you in. Then, I think for people who really get geeky about wines, that style can start to just be a little zany, and a little boring. Then, of course, there's just this added snobbery of, "Oh, I've moved on from that. You know, I like much more sort of toned down, restrained wines." As we're going to talk about one of the wines today, they're not all like that, and they're certainly not all cut from the some cloth. I mean, I have the good fortune of tasting a lot of them, these days, and there certainly is a style that screams, "New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc" and more specifically, "Marlborough." Then, there are a lot these days that are working out, a lot producers working outside the box, and trying new things, and working with more leaf contact. Aging in oak, or picking at different times. Going less for the pyrazines, and maybe more for a riper style. I really think now, there's a Sauvignon Blanc out there for everybody. Jameson Fink: 11:03 Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned outside the box, because if you go to winemag.com, you wrote a great article about exploring New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc outside the box. Go check that out. On that note, I do want to talk about a wine that's included in there, or a producer at least, the second wine, which is the Clos Henri 2017 Petit Clos Sauvignon Blanc, also from Marlborough. Now, this is an organic and biodynamic producer, correct? Christina P.: 11:27 They are, yes. They are, Clos Henri is actually owned by the Henri Bourgeois family in the Wairau Valley. They have really ... they started their New World Winery in Marlborough, and their, Damien Yvon is their general manager, and their winemaker. He is also from Wairau, so, this is very much French wine making, and French philosophy, transplanted into Marlborough. I think that a lot of what you think of as being really tradition, old school French winemaking, Terroir being the number one focus, really carries over into this winery, and therefore, into these wines. The Petit Clos is what you, I guess, what they would call their entry level. It's $18, which I think is an incredible bargain for how ... they're fairly small scale, they're definitely small scale compared to some of the really big well-known names. I think that $18 for what is a really, really delicious wine, and is very Terroir expressive, and all of those things, and need. With very minimal intervention, and biodynamically grown fruit, I think is all ... it's a really great package for that price. Actually touching on that, just a side note, I do think this style is one where if you put in a bit extra money, you really get rewarded. I think all the wines we're talking about today are ... the last one we're going to talk about is a little bit pricier, but Nautilus is I think $17 or $18, this is $18, the Clos Henri. If you put in that ... go into that $15 to $20 range, I think you get a much more ... a huge step up in quality, and a much more interesting wine. This is a really great example of that. The Petit Clos is a blend of three ... they have three vineyards, with three vineyard sites with very distinctive soils. This is a blend of the Greywacke River Stone, and then they have these clay soils, Broadbridge, and with their clays. This is a blend of those three, and they use things like, a lot of leave stirring, where the leaves being the yeast. They leave the wine in contact with the leaves for a fair amount of time, to get some texture in there. With their top line of Clos Henri wine, which is a single vineyard, they use some oak aging in there, too. It's a much more subtle line. It's a much more toned down line. I think for people who aren't maybe as into as bold a flavor as some of the more well-known styles of Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc, this is a really great example of one that is more French in style, but with a little more sunshine, a little more of that New World vibe going on. Jameson Fink: 14:19 You mentioned oak, which is something I think is interesting in Sauvignon Blanc. Is that something you come across a lot? Like New Zealand Sauvignon Blancs that use oak, and if they do, what kind of oak are they using? What kind of program and what does it add to the wine? Christina P.: 14:32 You see some where they want the oak to be a contributing factor. With Sauvignon Blanc, it's such a bold, crisp wine. It's high acid. It's considered to be a relatively easy summer drink. If they're wanting ... they don't often want a lot of the oak to shine through, 'cause it just clashes with that crisp, summery style. It's not Chardonnay, right? They're not going for that wheatier texture, and they're not trying to get the flavor, 'cause Chardonnay's a relatively subtle grape, in terms of flavor profiles. The oak would really shine through in a grape like Chardonnay, whereas, I feel like Sauvignon is so extroverted in it's personality already, that to try to add a lot of oak in there, would just fight with the wine. Most people who are using oak, would just be using it more as a textural thing, and just trying to get a little bit more of that creamy mouth weight. Maybe make it more like medium bodied spectrum versus light bodied. It's not typical, so most of the wines you find out there, you won't really see oak at all. It would just be in stainless steel. It'd be just a young, crisp style of just fruit driven, and driven by those herbaceous notes, and not with any of that oak. Actually the Nautilus, interestingly, going back to that, they use oak in a lot of their wines. I consider them to be pretty classic Marlborough producer. They've been around since 1985. They've been doing it for a long time. They use oak in a way that is, again, just adding texture, and contributing to that fruit concentration. I think that they are not afraid of those secondary, tertiary characters that add complexity. I think that's why i generally, consistently, really like Nautilus, and have liked their wines for a long time. I tend to be a little drawn to wines with a little more weight texture. Jameson Fink: 16:24 Yeah, when you talk about weight and texture and freshness, and things like that, I think of New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc as something you drink right away, super fresh. Is it? Is it a wine that can age, if you had aged examples of it, where you're like, "Wow." Like that ... with three or plus years, or something like that. That it's a wine that can development at a certain level? Christina P.: 16:45 Yeah, for sure. Going back to Clos Henri, I mean, their top wine is one that, for sure, it's just called the Clos, Clos Henri Sauvignon Blanc, that is a really good example of one that could definitely age. I mean, you're not going to age them as long as you would age a Cabernet, for example. I think seven to 10 years, some of them could go, the majority are not though. I would assume that they're meant to be drink now wines. Yeah, certainly some of them that have had a little bit of an oak regime, and again, maybe some leave stirring, trying to go for that texture and restraint. Maybe more of a mineral drive in there. They can age, for sure. They go a little more honeyed, and those really bright fruit flavors start to get a little bit more dried fruit, for example. Or some nutty characteristics in there, as well. Yeah. Jameson Fink: 17:46 Cool. For the first two wines, they're both from the Marlborough region. I want to move to the third one, which is, we're gonna travel a little in New Zealand, it's the Peregrine 2017 Sauvignon Blanc from the Central Otago. I think Central Otago is best known for Pinot Noir. If you could just start by telling me where is the Central Otago in relation to Marlborough, and is it unusual to see Sauvignon Blanc from there? Christina P.: 18:14 Yes. First of all, Central Otago is southwest of Marlborough, so, we're still on the South Island, here. New Zealand's North Island, South Island. There is wine made on both islands, and unlike here, I know we're conditioned as you go south it gets warmer, we're in southern hemisphere, of course, so going north is where you see the warmer grape varieties, like Merlot, and Cab, you seem them a little bit more, Shiraz up in the Hawk's Bay area, for example. Down in Central Otago, we're going cooler. You're going south of Marlborough, so, you're going into a little bit cooler climate. It's sort of its own microclimate, and you're right to say that Central Otago is more well-known for Pinot Noir, for sure. This wine is ... most of the fruit is coming from Bendigo, which is sort of a subregion within a subregion. It's one of the warmest, so you will get more of those[pineapple-y, passion fruit flavors from this area. Then a lot of that gunflint mineral, those mineral notes, the herbaceousness as well. You'll see it occasionally, but definitely Central Otago is more Pinot. This one is, I think, $29 a bottle. They're going for a more premium style. They also farm organically. Yeah, this is a female winemaker, Nadine Cross, who is really talented. She's worked in France, and California, and all over the place. There's a gram of residual sugar, if you wanted to know that. That's something that you see in Sauvignon Blanc a bit, they'll leave just a little bit of sweetness in there, because the acidity can be so high. Like they do with Riesling, and that gives the perception of more fruitiness, and maybe, softens the acidity a little bit. Jameson Fink: 20:09 Huh. I didn't ... I'd never knew there was 1% RS in some of my New Zealand Sauvignon Blancs. I guess, like you said, it's such a racy grape that it can handle a little touch. We're not talking about sweet. Christina P.: 20:23 Yes, a tiny bit. Jameson Fink: 20:23 We're talking just mellow out the zippy acidity. Christina P.: 20:27 Exactly. It's tiny. Even I often will not detect it, and I might look at the technical notes and just go, "Oh, okay. There was a tiny bit in there. That's probably what's sort of contributing to, maybe a little bit of that feeling of wheatier fruit, or something." Jameson Fink: 20:42 Then, one last thing I wanted to mention about New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc is, not necessarily about the wine, but the packaging, as far as screw caps, they wanted to know, New Zealand's been such a pioneer and I think almost all the Sauvignon Blancs you'll see are sealed under a screw cap, and I think their popularity certainly had a lot to do with people accepting screw caps. At least on wines that are more of a drink now, refreshing style of white wine. Christina P.: 21:07 Yeah, absolutely. Australia, New Zealand, both have been really ahead of the game with screw caps. Now, I mean, I couldn't give you a percentage, but the vast, vast majority are under a screw cap. I think, here in the States we still, a lot of people maybe still have that misconception. I think it's changing a lot, but most of the wines here are still under cork. There's still a little bit of that misconception that if it's screw cap it must not be good quality-wise. Now, keep in mind that if you're drinking a wine from New Zealand, I could say the same for Australia, that that really doesn't make a difference at all, as a quality. In fact, some of the top wines, even Penfold’s Grange now is doing a lot of their wines under screw caps. That really is not a sign of quality anymore. It's just been a shift, a stylistic shift. I think it's easier. From my perspective, I love it. Jameson Fink: 21:57 Yeah, I like not even ... you don't need a specialized tool. I mean, corkscrews are great. Love 'em, but I love to use them, but it's nice when you forget one, or don't need one or are traveling and you can just, you know, unscrew it. Christina P.: 22:08 Your mom could even do it one-handed with the lawnmower. Jameson Fink: 22:11 She could. You gotta ... My mom mowing the lawn. Thanks for listening to this episode of My Mom Mowing Her Lawn. I'll be sure she listens to it, now. Christina P.: 22:21 Actually, I'm not at all promoting drinking while using heavy machinery. Jameson Fink: 22:26 No. Christina P.: 22:26 We're really that you could open a screw cap with one hand. Actually. Jameson Fink: 22:29 Right. Right. We're just trying to illustrate the ease of opening screw cap wines. Christina, thanks for joining me, and talking about New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. It's nice to talk about it as more than single note, that people are doing interesting things with it, and not just in Marlborough. In other regions, too. It's something you can drink now. It's something you can hold on to, and there's just ... I think it's a more diverse wine than a lot of people have been exposed to. So, thank you. Christina P.: 22:56 You're welcome. It's been a pleasure. Jameson Fink: 22:58 And thank you for listening to the What We're Tasting Podcast. What We're Tasting is sponsored by Vivino. Buy the right wine. The wines we talked about this episode were the Nautilus 2017 Sauvignon Blanc, the Clos Henri 2017 Petit Clos Sauvignon Blanc, and the Peregrine 2017 Sauvignon Blanc. Find What We're Tasting on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you find podcasts. If you'd like today's episode, please give us a five star rating on iTunes. Leave a comment. And tell your friends. What We're Tasting is a Wine Enthusiast podcast. Check out Wine Enthusiast online at winemag.com.
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