Cover image of Modern Carnivore Podcast

Modern Carnivore Podcast

Conversations and interviews with host Mark Norquist and guests on everything related to hunting, fishing and other paths to eating meat responsibly.

Weekly hand curated podcast episodes for learning

Popular episodes

All episodes

The best episodes ranked using user listens.

Podcast cover

Davin Brandt of Minnesota Steelheader – Modern Carnivore Podcast (EP:013)

Davin Brandt – Founder/Director of Minnesota Steelheader In today’s podcast I sit down with Davin Brandt who is the founder and director of Minnesota Steelheader. This non-profit organization’s mission is to “engage volunteers who share a common interest of conserving the Lake Superior steelhead, trout, and salmon fisheries on Minnesota’s North Shore tributaries while informing, inspiring, and educating on the water, on-line, and in our communities.” I met Davin while serving on the MN DNR R3 Council over the past year and I can’t say enough positive things about this guy. He truly cares for the resources on the North Shore of Minnesota and is passionate about introducing people to steelhead fishing. I hope you enjoy the conversation! You can also watch this podcast on Youtube and see Davin’s and my shining faces, if you’d like. Scroll below, or just click here to go to the Modern Carnivore Youtube Channel. Davin Brandt, Founder/Director of MN Steelheader is on the Modern Carnivore PodcastClick To Tweet Davin shares Background of MN Steelheader (https://www.minnesotasteelheader.com/) Origins of Great Lakes Steelhead, and current issues How to get started fishing for steelhead yourself Make sure you check out the Outdoor Feast Podcast by Modern Carnivore, and hosted by Todd Waldron. Todd had a recent conversation with Nicole Qualtieri who is the hunting and fishing editor for GearJunkie.com. You’ll also want to check out Learn To Hunt Turkeys on HuntingCamp.LIVE (by Modern Carnivore). During the spring turkey hunting season of 2020 we’re giving everyone FREE access to all the turkey hunting content. Davin Brandt – Founder of Minnesota Steelheader Watch The Podcast


29 Apr 2020

Rank #1

Podcast cover

Public Lands with Land Tawney & Ashley Peters – Modern Carnivore Podcast (Ep. 003)

In this third episode of the Modern Carnivore podcast I sit down with Land Tawny who is the President and CEO of Backcountry Hunters & Anglers (BHA) and Ashley Peters who is a new hunter and member of BHA. Backcountry Hunters & Anglers is leading the fight to protect the public lands critical to the future of our democracy of hunting and the outdoor experience in the U.S. As an experienced conservationist, and new hunter, Ashley provides insights on what it means to be a hunter in today’s culture, and the challenges and opportunities that go with it. Check out the links below for more details. Land Tawney from @Backcountry_H_A is on the Modern Carnivore PodcastClick To Tweet The Value Of Public Lands Land Tawney – President of BHA Ashley Peters on her first hunt Reference Links from Today’s Podcast Backcountry Hunters & Anglers Website What is the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation? (Wikipedia) Theodore Roosevelt Association – Teddy Roosevelt, The Conservationist History of the Federal Duck Stamp (U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service) America’s Public Lands: Origin, History, Future (Public Lands Foundation)  What Is The Pittman-Robertson Federal Aid In Wildlife Restoration Act? (Wikipedia) Cellular Agriculture: Growing Meat In A Lab Setting Why Listen to The Modern Carnivore Podcast? With all the podcasts out there why would you want to listen to this one? Well, if you’re looking for a new adventure in the outdoors we’ve got some very interesting guests talking about topics related to honest food and wild adventures. Get ready to be entertained and enlightened on topics related to hunting, fishing, foraging…and more. Here are a couple other podcasts you may be interested in: Episode 2: Robyn Migliorini from Modern-Hunters.com shares her story of going from vegan to thoughtful hunter Episode 4: Cooking wild game well can be a daunting task for some, but not for Jamie Carlson and Jack Hennessy. These two experienced wild game cooks talk about everything from braising goose to grilling moose. Do you have a question that you’d like answered on the podcast, or an idea for an episode? Shoot us a note at info@modcarn.com. Subscribe to the Modern Carnivore Podast on iTunes and/or Stitcher. Please support the podcast by giving us honest feedback on iTunes or wherever you listen to the podcast. And if you do like it, don’t forget to tell your friends about it! Listen to new hunter @AshJPeters thoughts on conservation and learning to hunt.Click To Tweet If you enjoyed this podcast you may also like this video of why Modern Carnivore was created. Here’s a transcript of today’s Episode – Public Lands Intro: 00:11 Welcome to the Modern Carnivore Podcast, a guide for those interested in hearing more about hunting, fishing, and other paths to eating more responsibility. Now, here’s your host, Mark Norquist. Mark: 00:21 Hello and welcome to this third episode of the Modern Carnivore Podcast.  I recently caught up with Land Tawny and Ashley Peters when I was down in Bentonville, Arkansas. Land is the President and CEO of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, a conservation organization focused on public land issues. And Ashley is both a member out of the Minnesota chapter of that organization. Uh, but most importantly she is a new hunter. Just started hunting a couple of years ago. So today’s podcast, we talk about public lands and threats to them. And this is important because I think a lot of people don’t realize that public lands in the US are truly the backbone of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. And without getting into too much detail here, this model was formally articulated, to be honest just in the last couple of decades, but it’s built off the attitudes in work of many people in the hunting and fishing community, going way back to the nineteenth century, there are seven tenants to it and the seventh one is about the democracy of hunting, which is really based on inspiration from the work that Teddy Roosevelt did and when he talked about open access to hunting, that it would result in many benefits to society. And that open access, as I view it, is really derived from your ability and my ability to go out on public lands and waters to hunt and fish. Mark: 01:57 And this is something that’s very unique in the world and it’s something we need to protect because there are very few places that have this opportunity for everyone. So I’ll provide some links in the show notes page. So if you are interested in learning more about it, you can. Today. We also talk about hunters and anglers as conservationists more generally. You know, the hunting community has been focused on conservation of wild places and animals and plants and really the entire wild environment for well over a hundred years. And it resulted in the last century in establishment of self imposed excise taxes on outdoor equipment that are focused on hunting and fishing. And those purchases that outdoors men and women have made, have resulted in taxes that contributed billions of dollars to conservation in America and again we’ll provide some links on the show notes page about that. We also talk about the rise of fake meat, which if you’re not familiar with it is something that’s, ah, very intriguing but also, I think very scary that is growing meat in labs. And, also what it means to start hunting as an adult – getting Ashley’s is perspective on that. She shares some new terminology for duck hunting and, also redefines what conceal and carry really means. So I hope you enjoy today’s conversation and look for the show notes at Modcarn.com/podcast3. That’s podcast and the number three. Mark: 03:33 OK, we are, uh, here in Bentonville, Arkansas. Never been down here before with Land Tawny – the president and CEO of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. Land: 03:33 I’m here. Mark: 03:46 That’s right. (he just) gave the keynote address at the summit were attending. And (I’m also joined by) Ashley Peters, an outdoor communicator, and for those of you who follow Modern Carnivore is someone who we have been following last couple years on her journey to becoming a hunter and Angler. Ashley: 03:46 Yea, I’m happy to be here today. Mark: 04:04 Great. So, um, you know, one of the things we talked about on the Modern Carnivore Podcast and a lot of the content we do is, is the importance of public lands. So for people who are coming to hunting and fishing for the first time as an adult, where do they go. And Land…You were the keynote speaker here at the Outdoor Blogger Summit, which is this conference that is bringing national voices in the media, brands, big brands, we’ve got Patagonia here, we’ve got all these other, other big brands here. Um, and you gave the keynote on public lands. So what’s interesting, I think is looking at that with the organizers, why they chose that for something where we’ve got all these different sports and activities coming together and you as the head of a, of a conservation organization focused on hunting and fishing and public lands are giving the address. Why do you think this issue has gotten so big? And it’s relevant to, to really everyone that are concerned with the outdoors Land: 05:08 First one is that there’s threats out there to our public lands and maybe like there never has been before. You know, ever since Roosevelt kind of started this public land legacy, you know, over a hundred years ago, um, there’s been threats, but it seems now that they’re even more dire. And so I think that’s, that’s creating an awakening, you know, within the public. And then, you know, I think why did they ask me in particular, I think it’s partly because of the work we’re doing at Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, but I also think it’s the opportunity to really build synergy between like consumptive and non-consumptive users. And I don’t know if those are the two greatest words you know, or if they’re the way (we should refer) to it. Mark: 05:49 So by “non-consumptive” you mean bikers, hikers, paddlers and consumptive been hunters and anglers, right? Land: 05:53 Yeah. So pulling the trigger or catching fish versus just kind of being an observer I guess. And so I think that that is growing right now because of these threats. And I think that’s partly why they wanted me to have me down here just to try to help perpetuate this kind of union that is being created. And you know, one of the things I said this morning too is that hunters – they mountain bike, they paddle, they mountain climb, you know, um, and so, this bifurcation has happened more by outside entities, I think the internal entities. And so it’s for us to break down those barriers so that you know, that we come out a lot stronger and so that we can have more of an impact when it comes to these threats throughout our public lands. Mark: 06:38 Why do you think the groups have been so bifurcated in the past? Do you think it’s just the nature of focusing on what you love, and if I’m a biker, I’m just going to focus on biking and I don’t know any guys who hunt or fish are or what? Land: 06:46 So I think hunters and anglers doing conservation for over a hundred years in this country and um, and the biking kind of mountain climbers and skiers, that’s all kind of new, you know. And not that people haven’t been mountain biking and especially skiing for a long time. But it’s fairly new and so I think that’s part of it is just that hunters been doing it for a long time. This new constituency is, uh, is just kind of starting. That’s part of it, I think that there are outside entities to that want to be like hunters are conservatives and then mountain climbers and paddlers are liberals, right? They they really want to like keep it that way when that couldn’t be further from the truth because you have liberal hunters and you have conservative mountain bikers. And so they’ve wanted to kind of keep us separate, I think to divide us politically. And again, like if what I just said. Like why I’m here, and why this thing is happening is, that bringing those things together…so politically we’re a huge force, which I think is pretty cool. Mark: 07:45 So why in your mind, are our public lands so critical to specifically hunting and fishing? Land: 07:53 I mean, you know, I didn’t, I grew up in Montana. (My) family, didn’t homestead. I have a lot of private land owners I know, and so I can go onto their place. But really public lands where I do the majority of my hunting and fishing. And so it’s a place…it’s like this great equalizer, you know, like I said this morning, like you don’t have to be, you know, a rich banker from New York City to go out and hunt because we have these public lands. It’s available to anybody. It’s like this, you know, it’s this great expanse that, that doesn’t cost you anything. And so to me it’s vitally important is this great equalizer. It’s the hunting and fishing, you know, again, like people can hunt and fish on private lands and they can pay for leases. You know, like the leasing thing to me is, is absolutely crazy because it’s not even part of my lexicon, because I am not going to go pay money to go hunt some place. I’m going to go on public land and public water. And so, um, to me it’s public lands and waters. Like without it, I don’t think we have the hunting and fishing heritage in this country, you know, and that big/huge outdoor economy that goes with it. Like all that goes away if our public lands aren’t there. Mark: 08:58 Yeah. Absolutely. What do you say to people who, let’s say people in the hunting and fishing community who maybe feel exasperated that hunting and fishing groups are the ones who’ve been carrying the water relative to public lands and conservation for so long and other groups have haven’t and they get mad about it? Because I hear that, you know, at different times. What would you say to someone who has that perspective? Land: 09:25 So part of, part of that as I was taking credit for things that we don’t necessarily do, like, you know what I mean? I think there’s like the Pittman Robertson stuff, there’s the duck stamp which we contribute to, um… But our public lands are paid for by every single…you know…the management of our public lands is paid for by every single American in this country. Right? Like you pay taxes and that’s what pays for the management: fire, road maintenance, all those things. I mean Congress gets to decide on how much money they give.  But every single American pays for that. On the other side of that, like, you know, I think we should be proud of what we do, um, and, what we contribute through excise taxes in particular. But we should wear that as a chip on our shoulder. I think we should encourage like the other side, again that’s the wrong way to say it, I think we should encourage more of that kind of altruistic behavior, right? And so, I think, instead of being like, Oh man, like we’ve done it all the time and you guys aren’t doing anything. It shouldn’t be like, hey we’ve been doing this for awhile and you guys should think about, you know, getting a tax on boots and backpacks and binoculars and those are things that hunters and anglers use. And so we’d be paying into that too. But make it more of like a positive. I think like the chip on the shoulder doesn’t work for us. I think it’s a conversation stopper rather than a starter. Mark: 10:34 I completely agree. I love what you said this morning in your keynote about the idea of um, everyone should be buying a duck stamp, not just the bird hunters know you. And so, have you got thoughts on that Ashley? Ashley: 10:49 Well, I think that I think that a lot of people are unaware of all of the funding that goes into public lands. And until you start hunting fishing, um, and doing some of these things where you have to buy licenses, you have to buy equipment…you’re not aware of it because you haven’t had to interact with it. You haven’t had to put money into it and think about it like, “man, this is 75 bucks for this license”…well, I guess this is my donation to conservation. You know? And you go forward with it, but I think that if you don’t have to buy those licenses and you don’t have to think about some of those things, it seems like it is completely free. And so the idea of then paying in some form is still an adjustment for some people. And so, um, I think it’s important for…I think this conversation is really important for folks who hike, bike and paddle to think about as well because we all need to be putting in to that, um, that conservation funding and support. Mark: 11:49 I couldn’t agree more. And like you said a moment ago Land I, I think rather than for people who have been hunting and fishing for a long time, rather than having a chip on your shoulder of, hey, we’d been paying for it now you guys should too. I think it’s a situation of, hey, this is, this is what we’ve learned. And if other groups would love to do it, here’s, here’s how we’ve had success and here’s why we, why we enjoy doing it. Land: 12:10 I mean, we’re not, I mean we’re never going to be in a place where we have enough money. I mean literally like whether that’s, you know, like, like either buying private land and turn that into public land, or to managing Fisher Wildlife. Like, I mean, I would love to think about a day when we have all the money we need, but I don’t think it’s ever going to happen. And so, we need more people to contribute and I think that’s the positive kind of way to talk about versus, “man, we’ve been doing it (and) now it’s your turn!”. That’s a negative connotation. Mark: 12:35 No, absolutely. So, Ashley, you started hunting last year. It was your, is your first season going out? Uh, I was with you on your first pheasant hunt when you got a pheasant. I believe this year you went out waterfowl hunting, correct? Ashley: 12:35 Yes. Mark: 12:52 So you actually bought your first duck stamp maybe or. OK. So tell us about, I mean, how was it, was it a, was it a good experience? Ashley: 12:59 Uh, the duck hunting specifically? Mark: 12:59 Yea. Ashley: 13:06 Uh, yes. Um, something valuable that I’ve learned in learning to hunt is that you not only have to be aware of what you’re aiming at, you also have to be aware of what you can fall into. Um, so a lot of puddles and cold water in various bird hunting pursuits. So, um, I’ve, I’ve definitely, that’s been an adjustment to constantly think about like, OK, so I’m focusing on this horizon. I’m like lifting up, but I also have to know, um, you know, the blind that we used for duck hunting was just a canoe with some decorations that looked like the wetlands that we’re in. And so, um, we were sitting there and the thought kept running through my mind when I shoot this duck, am I going to tip over behind me into the three feet of, of cold water, you know, as I do that? And I mean, it’s completely possible. So we didn’t actually take any shots. It was kind of a bad morning for duck hunting, but we went out in the afternoon, we went grouse and woodcock hunting. Um, and that was, that was really good experience. But again, the puddles, um, I think I fell into a two or three foot puddle in the middle of a marsh woodcock hunting. Land: 14:31 It won’t be the last time, by the way. You know, I’ve been duck hunting my whole life, I can say that like, oh, I know how to not get wet…you’re going to get wet and cold when you duck hunt and that’s just like, kind of a given. Ashley: 14:39 Yes. So, um, but it’s been fun. I mean, always I’m with people who can laugh about it and like, um, were well prepared when we go out. And so I feel very comfortable with the people that I’m with. Um, uh, I’ve, I’ve largely had women as mentors and that’s been fantastic because there are all sorts of, I mean to be honest with you, like there are all sorts of jokes and things that you know, that we make and talk about that I wouldn’t necessarily talk about if guys were around, you know. Um, and, and some of that has to just do with a perception of being a woman who hunts. It’s just to some degree, a different experience in, in certain environments or certain cultures. So, um, it was great. Duck hunting was…it was gorgeous. The sunrise was coming up. Everything was like pink and then it was blue. And then, um, we had some swans fly over and um…so it was great birding as well. Mark: 15:39 Yeah. Yeah. I think duck hunting is, is definitely, it can be one of the most enjoyable hunts out there. Um, but it is, it can be daunting and, and challenging. And I think…(cough) excuse me…anybody who starts starts hunting…I think the key is, if you’re going to go duck hunting, go out with somebody who’s got experience. Because like you said, especially if your water hunting like we do in Minnesota. It can be dangerous, you know? Ashley: 15:39 Oh, absolutely. Mark: 16:08 What I was…this was probably 20 years ago….I was younger. I was, it was opening (of) duck season, uh, up at the hunting shack with my family and friends. Everybody left. I was going to stay in other day and hunt by myself. It started snowing. Wind was coming down from Canada. Perfect ducky weather…OK? Birds started flying and I’m like, “I gotta get down down the creek to the lake to hunt”.  And I got down there and it was just nasty weather. I shot a shot a mallard, and went over to pick it up in a canoe. I went to pick it up and reached over (the canoe gunwal) and the thing was still alive and started flapping. It caught me off guard. I flipped out of the canoe. It could have been a really, really bad situation. I ended up losing my gun in the bottom of the bog…somehow was able to get the canoe backup upright, paddle back up the creek to the hunting shack, get a fire stoked in inside, dry out, and then that afternoon was able to go back down because they mark the spot with a pole. I stuck my rice pole upside down in the bog. After two hours of punching down with a stick, I finally found the gun. But yeah, I mean it could’ve been bad. I mean there are stories all the time duck on understanding, so I think that’s something just to make sure…that everybody who is starting to hunt knows is duck hunting is great, but make sure you go out with somebody who knows what they’re doing and they’ve got experience because it can be dangerous. Ashley: 17:26 Yeah. We went out two days back to back. And even the second day I could already tell that I was more comfortable being in that environment, um, because it, it’s so new and there’s so much involved in it. So much equipment, you know, you’ve got the decoys, you got the blind, you got all the stuff that you’re wearing. So yeah, I, I definitely agree. It makes a big difference to go with someone that you feel really comfortable with and confident in. Mark: 17:51 And, you got to make sure they’ve got the right decorations. Land: 17:54 I picked that up. I’m gonna start using “decorations” in all my talks. We didn’t camo that blind up…we put some decorations on it. I will say though you know, we’re talking about public lands and waters earlier, like that ability to like go learn like Ashley’s doing….or to have that experience where you almost died. Like, as crazy as that sounds – that’s awesome that we have the opportunity like for that to happen. Like these are places that you learn and uh, you have to obviously be prepared and then in that case, but you have to make some pretty smart decisions very quickly to survive that, right? Like if you went and tried to like get your gun at that point, you probably have gotten hyperthermic and died, right? Mark: 17:54 Yea. Land: 18:34 Like you have to go home and go…and so like I think that’s just rad that there’s those places out there that like we don’t control everything. Right? Like things like that duck like that was unplanned for you. And then that happened and then all of a sudden you got to start making decisions after that, which I think is absolutely awesome. Mark: 18:50 So this last spring when Hal came to Minnesota. Hal Herring – the, the host of the uh, Land: 18:50 Podcast and Blast by Backcountry, Hunters and Anglers. Mark: 19:00 And uh, we drove up the shore because he’d never been to Minnesota before. We went up to Gooseberry Falls, which is up on, up on the North Shore. And one of the things he said that he loved seeing when we were down there…we went down to the falls. These are big falls, very dangerous rock cliffs. And there’s a sign there, it says “swimming, not recommended”. And he and he made a comment on that. He’s like, I love that. It’s not that it’s not allowed, you know, it’s just that we don’t recommend it, but hey go at it if you want. Land: 19:27 Your actions do have consequences, right? Mark: 19:32 Exactly. So Ashley, you’ve now gone after pheasant, you’ve gone after ducks. Um, what about, what about big game animals? You know, that sometimes, uh, it’s something I am always interested to ask people about who are just starting to hunt. Some people go right after it like,  “I want to go deer hunt, you know, the most popular big game animal in North America (because) everybody goes after that”. Um, other people don’t have any interest. So, I think you and I have chatted about it a little bit before, but not a whole lot. So, I mean, what, what is your perspective on that? Is that something you want to do or not? Ashley: 20:05 Well, I think at this point I’m still getting used to the idea of hunting to be honest. Um, you know, there, there are so many pieces that go into learning to hunt. So the biggest ones starting out for me was just buying, owning and transporting a gun. That was a huge adjustment for me, you know, and so I think, I think in the process of, of thinking about what are you going to hunt, when are you going, what do you want to get out of it? For me right now, I mean I work an office job so I’m sitting most of the week. So the most important thing for me with any pursue outdoors is to be moving around and that’s, that’s how I got into fly fishing. It was a great way to get a workout on a weekend and also have a bunch of fun catching fish. Ashley: 20:52 Um, and right now that’s what hunting is for me. It’s getting out in the field, moving around, hanging out with friends and maybe you’re getting a meal out of the deal. So I’m really, I think right now time, money and resources wise, I need to stick with, with bird hunting for the moment, but I mean, I’m not ruling it out. It just, um, when you’re learning to hunt, you have to take things one, one piece at a time and do what you’re comfortable with. And right now I’m still getting comfortable with just bird hunting and so…I’ve completely thought about it. Um, but it is something that I’m choosing to not think about it more because for me, there are still so many pieces that I need to work through with the hunting that I’m doing right now. So I think that, uh, like I said, the, the biggest thing right now is that I’m getting outside, I’m moving, I’m interacting with the environment. So that’s where I am. Mark: 21:54 Yeah, no, that makes sense. So it is, it’s, you know, one of the things I talk about is a lot is for somebody who hasn’t ever hunted before land, you grew up doing it. I grew up doing it. Um, it’s a daunting thing. Where do you start? How do you get comfortable with it? Like you just said, I mean, you could duck hunt for the next 30 years and slowly get more comfortable with it, but you gotta be careful not to bite off too much. Um, and, and really in really figuring out what you, what you like, what you want to do with. And so I think you’re, you know, everybody’s gonna have their own approach, but I like the perspective that you’ve got. You’ve got share, you get to share with people, your, uh, your story, you just talked about about…you know what I’m talking about Ashley: 22:39 I know exactly what you’re talking about….talk about decorations. Yeah. So I, uh, when I first bought a gun it came in a cardboard box and so I had in my apartments and practically downtown, St Paul, Minnesota and um, so I take it out of the box and I put it together and obviously it can’t go back into the cardboard box once it’s all put together and at that point like I’d gotten it to together. So I didn’t want to take it apart again and then I realized we were going to go trap shooting and so I realized I needed to get it out to my car, but I hadn’t thought through enough to buy like a transport…like case. And so I was looking around thinking like, oh shoot, what do I have that looks like I’m not hiding a gun under or something like because I think that looks scarier than just having like a gun case. So, um, I grab a bridesmaid’s dress out of my closet and I put the gun underneath the bridesmaid dress and I carried it out to my car that way and I went to the nearest store… Land: 23:44 That is awesome!   I wish I had pictures of that. But I wonder if like this is the only time it’s happened, like I kinda want to think that it’s happened more often, but like, like maybe not like it… Mark: 23:51 It brings a whole new meaning to conceal and carry. Land: 23:51 Totally. Totally Ashley: 23:56 But I did go buy a case as soon as I could. And I mean, it’s just one of those things that like, when you’ve bought a gun, you’re thinking through like, what are their (perceptions) of, what are my neighbors going to think? I’m in the middle of a city. Most people are not carrying (guns). I mean, and a lot of times people are scared of guns in urban areas and so, you know, the choices of a dress is funny. But it’s also because like I don’t want to feel like my neighbors feel threatened or that they don’t understand, um, owning a gun. And so I wanted to make sure to have a conversation with neighbors, um, about like, yeah, if you’ve seen me hunting, you’ve seen me in blaze orange, this is what I do, this is, this is, you know, why I do it. So making sure that there’s a positive perception of hunting as well. And we might get into this a little bit later, but one of the things that surprised me about learning to hunt is that I may not be super comfortable yet with the term hunter… Ashley: 25:05 …like I still don’t necessarily think of myself as a hunter. Anybody who’s seen pictures of me hunting or heard that I went on a hunt has no hesitation referring to me as a hunter. So friends, family, people who have never hunted before an article come up in the like, hey, you’re a hunter, what do you think about this? And so immediately you’re pulled into that conversation in a way that if, um, if you haven’t thought through a few things, it can be overwhelming because there are a lot of big questions and if you’re not comfortable being uncomfortable than hunting’s going to be a real stretch for you. But the nice thing is I think you become a bigger person and you have to dig a little bit philosophically when you start hunting and regardless of where you land as, as a result of those questions, I think that it makes you, um, a deeper conservationists. Like it makes you think deeper about issues related to hunting, fishing, being on public lands, all of that. So, um, so it, it’s been interesting because I get referred to as a hunter now. Um, and, but I think it’s opened up a lot of really great conversations. …cont. Request a full transcript of today’s episode by contacting us at info@modcarn.com. Thanks for Listening To Today’s Episode – Public Lands


5 Apr 2018

Rank #2

Podcast cover

Sally Fallon Morell – Modern Carnivore Podcast (Ep. 011)

Sally Fallon Morell – The Weston A. Price Foundation In Episode 11 of the Modern Carnivore Podcast I’m joined by Sally Fallon Morell. Sally is the founder of the Weston A. Price Foundation and also the author of Nourishing Fats – Why We Need Animal Fats For Health & Happiness. Sally had several ailments when she was younger but found that she felt better when she had fat in her diet. This led her to researching the work of Dr. Weston A. Price and then authoring several cookbooks. She then went on to form the Weston A. Price Foundation in 1999 with Mary Enig, PhD. The organization “always aims to provide the scientific validation of traditional foodways”. The work of Dr. Price definitely has it’s detractors as it flies in the face of much of the modern dietary guidelines. I think you’ll find this conversation with Sally very interesting. The Modern Carnivore Podcast is talking animal fats and a nutrient-dense diet with Sally Fallon Morell. #fat #cookingwild #realwildfoodClick To Tweet Links from Today’s Podcast Weston A. Price Foundation Website Why Listen to The Modern Carnivore Podcast? With all the podcasts out there why would you want to listen to this one? Well, if you’re looking for a new adventure in the outdoors we’ve got some very interesting guests talking about topics related to honest food and wild adventures. Get ready to be entertained and enlightened on topics related to hunting, fishing, foraging…and more. Here are a couple other podcasts you may be interested in: Episode 10: FISH – The Cookbook, with author Jon Wipfli, and Jamie Carlson Episode 9: Foraging For Wild Food with Jenna Rozelle and Jamie Carlson Have a question you’d like answered, or have an idea for the Podcast? Shoot us a note at info@modcarn.com. Subscribe to the Modern Carnivore Podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify and Podbean. Please support the podcast by giving us honest feedback on iTunes or wherever you listen to the podcast. And if you do like it, don’t forget to tell your friends about it! The Modern Carnivore Podcast is talking animal fats and a nutrient-dense diet with Sally Fallon Morell. #fat #cookingwild #realwildfoodClick To Tweet Editor’s Note: If you’re curious about starting your own hunting journey shoot an email to info@modcarn.com. This content is funded in part through a grant provided by the Minnesota DNR. Learn more about DNR efforts to recruit, retain and reactivate hunters on their website. 


4 Mar 2020

Rank #3

Podcast cover

Daniel Galhardo from Tenkara Fly Fishing – Modern Carnivore Podcast (Ep. 004)

In this fourth episode of the Modern Carnivore podcast I sit down with Daniel Galhardo who is the founder of tenkara fly fishing company – Tenkara USA. His company designs, manufactures and sells equipment used in this growing trend in fly fishing called tenkara. This simple form of fly fishing has its origins in the mountain streams of Japan where it’s been used to catch trout over the last couple of hundred years. The word tenkara literally means “from heaven” or “from the skies”. While there are similarities to the Western-style of fly fishing, they each developed independent of each other. Daniel introduced this type of fishing to the U.S. and started Tenkara USA in 2009. I hope you enjoy the conversation. ** Tenkara USA – Gear Giveaway Has Ended ** Notify Me Of Future Giveaways Daniel Galhardo - founder of Tenkara USA is on the Modern Carnivore PodcastClick To Tweet Reference Links from Today’s Podcast Tenkara USA Website What Is Tenkara? Stick Method to Cleaning Trout (below) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqzmneQ6i4I Why Listen to The Modern Carnivore Podcast? With all the podcasts out there why would you want to listen to this one? Well, if you’re looking for a new adventure in the outdoors we’ve got some very interesting guests talking about topics related to honest food and wild adventures. Get ready to be entertained and enlightened on topics related to hunting, fishing, foraging…and more. Here are a couple other podcasts you may be interested in: Episode 2: Robyn Migliorini from Modern-Hunters.com shares her story of going from vegan to thoughtful hunter Episode 3: Public Lands conversation with Land Tawney, President and CEO of Backcountry Hunters & Anglers and Ashley Peters Do you have a question that you’d like answered on the podcast, or an idea for an episode? Shoot us a note at info@modcarn.com. Subscribe to the Modern Carnivore Podast on iTunes and/or Stitcher. Please support us by giving us honest feedback on iTunes or wherever you listen to the podcast. And if you do like it, don’t forget to tell your friends! Learn about this simple form of fly fishing on the Modern Carnivore PodcastClick To Tweet If you enjoyed this podcast you may also like this video of why Modern Carnivore was created. Tenkara Fly Fishing Transcript Intro: 00:11 Welcome to the Modern Carnivore podcast, a guide for those interested in hearing more about hunting, fishing, and other paths to eating more responsibly. Now, here’s your host, Mark Norquist . Mark : 00:21 Hello and welcome to this episode number four of the Modern Carnivore Podcast. In today’s episode, I talk with Daniel Galhardo. Daniel was the first person to bring the method of fly fishing called Tenkara outside of Japan, and he founded Tenkara USA in 2009. This style of fly fishing is an ultra simple way to get out on the water. And that’s why I think it’s a great way for somebody to really dip their toe into the world of fly fishing. And even if you’re familiar with Tenkara fly fishing, I think you’re gonna. Enjoy Daniel’s story here today, and him sharing what it’s all about and why he brought it to the US. We talk about the history of the technique, how we got into it. Uh, and then we touched on the topic of killing fish, which is a complicated discussion. If you’re not too familiar with fly fishing, this is a often talked about item because a lot of people who fly fish do not take any fish…it’s all catch and release. And so we have a discussion on that. And then I want to point out the daniel references the coming winter in the, uh, in this episode. And that is because we recorded this last fall even though it’s springtime now when, uh, when we’re pushing it out. And I want to reference that. Today’s episode is sponsored by Earth Rider Beer. Their beers are crafted with Lake Superior water and premium hand selected ingredients by decorated brewers. They’re brewing their beer at the head of the Great Lakes on the Duluth Superior Harbor for the Twin Ports and also for the north and south shores of Lake Superior. They’ve got four flagship beer styles available in cans, including the Superior Pale Ale, Precious Metals Helles, North Tower Stout, and the newly-released Caribou Lake IPA. And I just saw online the other day that they’re North Tower Stout just won a bronze award at the World Beer Cup.  So next time you’re heading up north to, uh, maybe do an outdoor adventure in northern Wisconsin or Minnesota, make sure you pick up some Earth Rider. You can find them at EarthRider.beer. I myself. Ima hopefully going to get up to try to chase some steelhead on the north shore soon and you can bet I’ll be picking up a 12 pack of the Caribou Lake IPA. Mark : 02:54 So today I’m joined by Daniel Galhardo. Did I pronounce that close enough? Daniel: 02:54 That sounds good. Mark : 03:00 Sounds  good. Daniel is the founder of Tenkara USA. And uh, you may have heard of Tenkara fly fishing before. I had not heard of it until maybe a couple of years ago. Um, and it’s because of you. I’ve now found out, so we just met. And um, before we jump into that though, I guess I, I think, uh, just like to hear more of your story, like, like, uh, where, where did you grow up? Daniel? Daniel: 03:27 Uh, yeah. For those of you listening to this episode, I’m from Brazil. That’s where I’m originally from. A came to the states when I was 17 for high school and I ended up staying for college and then I met my wife in college and I often joke that I stayed in the states for the trout fishing and for my wife as well. That’s what I say, but it’s nice to disclose that up front because sometimes people think like, is this guy drunk? Crazy slurring his speech and so forth. It’s my accent. I’m, that’s where I’m from. And so where do you live now? Uh, now I live in boulder and Colorado. So I, uh, I was in San Francisco for about 10 years and five years ago when we moved to boulder. Mark : 04:06 OK, great. So, um, what is Tenkara fly fishing? Daniel: 04:13 Yeah. So Tenkara fly fishing is a very simple Japanese method of fly fishing. It’s a method of fly fishing or uses only a rod line and fly no real. Um, that in itself makes things a little simpler. But yeah, also kind of gets away with less equipment in general. And this method of fishing. I also uses telescopic rods and I showed you a little bit earlier, these rods extend to about 12 feet long. Uh, but they collapse down to 20 inches, fits in a backpack really nicely. I’m in the tie a line right to the tip of the rod and at the end of that you have four feet of tippet tip. It is just a clear fishing line that goes between your main line and the fly and then you’ll have your fly. So that’s the only things that you need and you move your rod to cast the fly out the flight lands in the water and hopefully a fish takes it.  But one of my favorite stories behind the term Tenkara fly fishing, because nobody knows exactly what to Tenkara fly fishing is supposed to mean, which is funny. It’s written in this Japanese script that doesn’t give it an exact meaning that there is a story of uh, some angler in Japan catching fish after fish and they’re targeting trout. I mean, that’s the native fish that they have in Japan, where Tenkara fly fishing originated (and) he’s catching fish after fish. A passerby walks by…he’s like, how could you catch so many fish without having to stop and Change Your Bait? You know, most people would be familiar with fishing and he’s like, well here at the end of my line I have this fly. I tied it using some thread and a feather. I cast and the fish sees the fly coming from heaven and he takes it. So one of the main interpretations of the word Tenkara fly fishing is that it means from heaven, because of the fly coming from heaven and having the fish take it.   Mark : 05:51 So you’re from Brazil, you live in the US and you brought this Japanese style of fishing to the US.  So tell us how you first got exposed to Tenkara fly fishing. Daniel: 06:04 So I grew up fishing bait, fishing, like with cane poles as a kid in Brazil. And then I used telescopic, or what we call a crappie pole, you know, telescopic rods using bait. Um, so fishing is being a part of my life for a long time. And I was about 14. I really got the fishing bug, and that’s how I really got obsessed with fishing. And then eventually I became interested in fly fishing when I was about 17. That was in Brazil. And then I moved to the states, fly fish the bunch and at one point I was also a pretty involved in fly fishing as a director of a fly fishing club in San Francisco and one thing that I noticed is that so many of my friends and people that came to the club looking for information on how to fly fish, uh, there were very intimidated by the whole idea of fly fishing. It’s like, oh, they went to the shop and they try to sell me $800 worth of gear, or I picked up a book and they kind of, it seemed like I had to learn Latin, you know, to fly fish in, right in the middle of that. And like getting the feedback from friends and members of the club. Um, I discovered Tenkara fly fishing. Uh, my wife, she’s Japanese American and 2007 we started talking about going fishing or going to Japan to visit her relatives. And I told her, I really want to meet your grandparents, but I also want to fly fish when I’m there. So I started doing some research and learned that in Japan they have this method of fishing that is very simple. Um, when we went there, I bought a Rod, brought her back, went backpacking, and totally fell in love with it, but I couldn’t find any information about Tenkara fly fishing at all, like on the web in English. Tenkara Fly Fishing Podcast


18 May 2018

Rank #4

Podcast cover

Hunting and Fishing in the BWCA – Modern Carnivore Podcast (Ep. 008)

Wilderness Areas and the BWCAW In this eighth episode of the Modern Carnivore Podcast I take a trip to the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness (BWCAW) with a great group of guys to go hunting and fishing. That group included Miles Nolte from Gray’s Sporting Journal (but he’s now a member of the crew at Meat Eater), Lukas Leaf from Sportsmen For The Boundary Waters, Rob Drieslein who is the President of Outdoor News and Jack Hennessy who is an outdoor writer and wild game cook. I also focus on Wilderness (with a capitol “W”) and specifically the threats to public lands and waters like the BWCAW. The Modern Carnivore Podcast is talking BWCAW grouse hunting and fishing #grouse #fishingClick To Tweet Why Listen to The Modern Carnivore Podcast? With all the podcasts out there why would you want to listen to this one? Well, if you’re looking for a new adventure in the outdoors we’ve got some very interesting guests talking about topics related to honest food and wild adventures. Get ready to be entertained and enlightened on topics related to hunting, fishing, foraging…and more. Here are a couple other podcasts you may be interested in: Episode 7: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Episode 6: Tom Landwehr, former Commissioner of MN DNR talking deer camp. Have a question you’d like answered, or have an idea for the Podcast? Shoot us a note at info@modcarn.com. Subscribe to the Modern Carnivore Podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify and Podbean. Please support the podcast by giving us honest feedback on iTunes or wherever you listen to the podcast. And if you do like it, don’t forget to tell your friends about it! The Modern Carnivore Podcast is talking BWCAW grouse hunting and fishing #grouse #fishingClick To Tweet Transcript Of Podcast Podcast: Wilderness Areas and BWCAW Intro:   00:08                Welcome to the Modern Carnivore Podcast. A guide for those interested in hearing more about fishing and other paths to eating more responsibly. Now here’s your host, Mark Norquist. Mark:   00:23      Hey everyone. Welcome to episode number eight of Modern Carnivore Podcast. Mark:   00:30       Today we’re going to talk about Wilderness areas. And more specifically, we’re going to take you to the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness, which is the most threatened Wilderness in the U.S. So before we get into that, let’s do a little background on what we mean by wilderness with a capital w. The Wilderness Act was signed into law by President Lyndon B Johnson in 1964 and it created the National Wilderness Preservation System and it also put a legal definition around the term Wilderness. One of the primary authors of this act, Howard Zahniser, uh, defined it this way, “A Wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. BWCAW Hunting and Fishing Mark:   01:43             It’s really protective overlay that’s applied to certain areas in our country; certain areas of public lands. They could be national forest parks, wildlife refuges, any number of different places. Um, one of the criticisms that has been made in the past about it is the reference to quote man himself as is a visitor who does not remain. But I think that’s the critical element of it and why it is really unique. So if you think about it, there are very few places where there are no buildings, no roads, no machines, and the only really semi-permanent structures I can think of would be these throne toilets. Basically a seat to sit on and do your business and the fire grades to control where you, where you do fires. And that’s specific to the Boundary Waters where we’re at today. And I think that’s a pretty special thing in something that is, that is needed in this world. Mark:   02:52       There are 765 of these Wilderness Areas in the U.S. they comprise just over 109 million acres total, which is under 5% of the u s landmass. And the Boundary Waters, Canoe Area Wilderness is just over 1 million acres itself. So, the question is why are these areas important? Well, if you hunt or fish, I would say there’s no better place to do those activities. It’s still and quiet and in essence allows you to travel in time to a, to a place in a, in a time where we didn’t have a lot of these modern mechanizations. And uh, again, that’s, that’s a pretty special thing. And when you talk about doing hunting and fishing and forging activities in a place like that, that’s pretty special. You know, I was, um, the fall before last I was antelope hunting out in Wyoming had a wonderful time, great people, great place. But there were a lot of roads, a lot of fence lines marking up in really chopping up this crazy, this patchwork of public and private lands and oil derricks all over and um, had a great time, really beautiful place in its own right. But if I was given my choice on where I’m going to hunt and fish, I’ll take a wilderness area where those, those, um, aspects of man and development are, are not seen readily while you’re doing the activities. The Boundary Waters is, is, is one of those places. There’s over a thousand lakes in this, in this wilderness area, and 1500 miles of canoe routes. The water in this area is so clean that many people will actually just dip their water bottle over the side of the canoe to take a drink. I would personally recommend using the filter for potential of giardia any other potential risks to, uh, to your digestive system. Mark:   05:02      But that just gives you an example of how clean this water is in this wilderness area. So if you want to lose yourself and really catch some great fish and maybe shoot a grouse, this is the place took to do it. So why is the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness threatened? As I mentioned at the open here? Well, currently there is a Chilean mining conglomerate that’s trying to cite a copper mine within the watershed of the Boundary Waters, Canoe Area Wilderness. And you may say, so what’s the problem with that? We’ve got mines and in areas a wilder is all over the country. Well if you look at the facts, it becomes a little concerning. Research shows that 100% of this type of copper mine experiences pipeline spills and accidental releases. So what are they spilling or releasing? Oftentimes it’s one of the main byproducts of copper mining and that is sulfuric acid. BWCAW Hunting and Fishing Mark:   06:08            So if a mine were placed within the watershed of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness, and when not, if it had a spill, that acidic slurry of byproducts would go right into these waters, these pristine waters. So what’s happening today? Right now? Well, just a couple of weeks ago, um, letter came across my desk that I saw, which was from the chair of the House Natural Resources Committee, the chair of the House, Interior Environment Appropriations Committee, and the chair of the subcommittee on Energy and Mineral Resources. It’s a lot of a lot of terms there, but they sent a letter to the Secretary of Agriculture and the Secretary of the Interior and in it they, they basically called out a lot of activities that they’re, that they believe are rather dubious. The current administration in its pushed to greenlight, this Chilean companies, mine in the boundary waters has ignored so much data and fact around the risks that this mind would pose to this area. Speaker 2:   07:22       Some of those are, there’s a $900 million recreation industry in that region of the state, which, which obviously is driven in large part by the pristine beauty of this wilderness area. It is the most visited Wilderness in all of America. And polls show that more than 70% of people in Minnesota Support Protection of the this wilderness from mining inside of its watershed. Mark:   07:51         So some of the things that they have, they have done not only ignoring those facts is the Administration has recently cancelled the environmental review that was underway to determine the risks that mining would pose to the wilderness and the waterways. And now they’ve decided to renew the leases that are held by this, this Chilean company and its predecessors for the last 50 years. But they never exercise the use of it and it had expired, but now they decided to renew them. Mark:   08:24                So the bottom line is if you like to hunt and fish, or if you’re aspiring to hunt and fish and forage a wilderness area, like the Boundary Waters Canoe Area is about as good as it gets anywhere in the world. BWCAW Hunting and Fishing Mark:   08:37        And if that’s important to you, I’d recommend letting your elected officials know what you think about these moves to put our wild heritage at risk for the benefit of a foreign conglomerate who will really take then move on, leaving us to clean up the mess. Mark:   08:54                So let’s get to today’s episode. On a happier note, we were traveling in the boundary waters, Canoe area wilderness, this beautiful place today. And we’re going to take you there. And it’s a throwback. This recording is actually a throwback to a trip I took in the fall with a great group of guys. We went, uh, went up to go grouse hunting and to uh, to do some fishing. I was joined by Miles Nolte who at the time was the editor of Gray Sporting Journal. He is now with meat eater, LuKas Leaf, who’s the executive director with sportsmen for the boundary waters. Rob Drieslein who is the President of Outdoor News and John Hennessy, or a Wild Game Jack as he is known who is an outdoor writer and wild game cook. Mark:   09:42   Again, we hiked through these really amazing areas and paddled across some, uh, some wonderful waters. The weather was great, a beautiful fall evenings and you’re going to notice there’s water flowing. You can hear it a lot. Uh, and that is because there were some heavy rains right before we got up there and we had rivers flowing everywhere, including right through the middle of our camp, right where we were sitting when we recorded this. So a lot of, a lot of wind and water. But I hope you enjoy the conversation and taking it to the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness today. Mark:   10:47                Okay. We are here in the Boundary Waters of a northern Minnesota and the boundary waters canoe area wilderness and got a group of guys here. Why don’t we go around. Miles went, you, uh, introduce yourself. BWCAW Hunting and Fishing Miles Nolte:   11:00      I am Miles Nolte. I’m the angling editor for Gray’s Sporting Journal and a fly fishing guide based out of Bozeman, Montana. Lukas Leaf:   11:11                Lukas Leaf here, sporting outreach director for sportsmen for the boundary waters Jack Hennessy:   11:18                Jack Hennessy, freelance outdoors journalists and wild game cook. Rob Drieslein:   11:23     Rob Drieslein managing editor, president of the Outdoor News publications out of the twin cities enjoying a trip in the Boundary Waters. Mark:   11:30      Excellent. So we’ve been up here now I’m second am second day, second day in the boundary waters. And we came up, um, to do a little fishing, a little hunting. And uh, that was the goal. And I want to, I guess start by by talking about the context of why we’re here, which is these are public lands and public lands are a critically important part of hunting. BWCAW Hunting and Fishing Remainder pending… Podcast: Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness Outro: 29:36 Thanks for listening to the Modern Carnivore podcast on Wilderness and the BWCAW. You can continue the journey by going to modcarn.com.


12 Apr 2019

Rank #5

Podcast cover

Foraging For Wild Food – Modern Carnivore Podcast (Ep. 009)

Foraging For Wild Food IMPORTANT NOTE: Eating and foraging for wild food of any sort (including mushrooms, nuts, berries and plants) carries inherent risks. If you forage for food please make sure you know what you are gathering, and that it is safe to eat before consuming any of it. In this ninth episode of the Modern Carnivore Podcast I’m joined by Jenna Rozelle and Jamie Carlson where we talk about all things outdoors, but mostly foraging for wild food. Jenna lives in Maine and has spent her life looking for ways to get food, medicine and more from the bounty of wild. We talk mushrooms, black walnuts, rosehips, squirrel hunting and more. Below are links to related materials. The Modern Carnivore Podcast is talking foraging for wild food with Jenna Rozelle and Jamie Carlson #forage #cookingwildClick To Tweet Jenna Rozelle, Jamie Carlson and Mark Norquist recording podcast in Boise. Links from Today’s Podcast North American Mycological Association – Club Listing Ramps In Shallot Butter – Recipe by Hank Shaw Making Maple Sugar –  Video by Joe & Zach Survival Why Listen to The Modern Carnivore Podcast? With all the podcasts out there why would you want to listen to this one? Well, if you’re looking for a new adventure in the outdoors we’ve got some very interesting guests talking about topics related to honest food and wild adventures. Get ready to be entertained and enlightened on topics related to hunting, fishing, foraging…and more. Here are a couple other podcasts you may be interested in: Episode 8: Hunting and Fishing in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness Episode 7: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Have a question you’d like answered, or have an idea for the Podcast? Shoot us a note at info@modcarn.com. Subscribe to the Modern Carnivore Podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify and Podbean. Please support the podcast by giving us honest feedback on iTunes or wherever you listen to the podcast. And if you do like it, don’t forget to tell your friends about it! The Modern Carnivore Podcast is talking foraging for wild food with Jenna Rozelle and Jamie Carlson #forage #cookingwildClick To Tweet Transcript Of Podcast – Foraging For Wild Food Introduction: 00:08 Welcome to the Modern Carnivore Podcast. A guide for those interested in hearing more about hunting, fishing and other paths to eating more responsibly. Now here’s your host, Mark Norquist. Mark: 00:21 Hello and welcome to episode nine of the Modern Carnivore Podcast. Today I am joined by Jenna Rozelle and Jamie Carlson. Jamie as you know, is a wild game cook and a regular contributor, uh, Modern Carnivore. And, uh, we always love getting Jamie’s perspectives on different things related to wild food. And Jenna is somebody that, uh, that we connected with, uh, this last year at the, at the Backcountry Hunters and Anglers National Rendezvous in Boise, Idaho. And we just had a lot of fun talking with her about all things wild and plants and mushrooms, et cetera. Jenna lives in the state of Maine and she learned the value of wild plants as a young girl from her mother and has really carried that through into her lifestyle as an adult. She really makes a living by connecting with wild foraged items and sharing both expertise and sometimes the bounty of the forest with, with others. And, uh, and so it’s fun to hear her perspectives on, on foraging. And she’s also got an interesting story from the standpoint of she came to hunting as an adult. So for those of you who are considering the idea of hunting now, uh, I think she’s yet one more example of somebody who came to this activity as an adult and really saw how it connects to her passion for all things wild. So we talk about foraging for wild food, which can be anything from mushrooms to plants and berries and more. Um, and I do want to caution you or just give you some guidance to make sure that you find a local expert before you head out into the wild yourself to, uh, to forage for food. Make sure you understand what’s edible, what is not, just as important. Um, and especially when you look at things like mushrooms, which can be risky if you don’t know what you’re looking for. So in the show notes page, we will put a link to the club listing of the North American Mycological Association, which has at least one club in most states and provinces. And you could also find out on social media and other places, uh, people who have a connection within your local community oftentimes and are passionate foragers. Just make sure they know what they’re doing. Um, and you can really, uh, have your eyes opened to a whole new opportunity out in the wilderness. So enjoy today’s discussion. Foraging For Wild Food Mark: 03:14 Okay. I am joined today by Jen and Rozelle. Did I pronounce that correctly? Yes. Okay. And Jamie Carlson. And, uh, we are in Boise, Idaho. And, uh, just wanted to sit down for a few minutes and talk a little bit about foraging, hunting than any other interesting things that are, that are coming along. So, uh, why don’t we kick it off by, Jenna, I want you to maybe give us a little bit of background on where you’re from, where you live, et cetera. Jenna: 03:46 Uh, currently I’m living in Parson’s Field, Maine, which is about an hour due west of Portland. Okay. Um, I spent the majority of my life living in, uh, the southern half of the state. Mark: 03:58 And what do you call that “Down East”? Jenna: 04:00 No, “downeast” is actually not down as you would imagine. Uh, I did homestead in downeast Maine, but that’s actually like mid-coast, you know, mean comes out to like a nose and then comes back in. Yeah. Down East is right on the nose. Mark: 04:18 Okay. Okay. Foraging For Wild Food Jenna: 04:19 So that’s kind of the middle of the state, on the coast. Mark: 04:21 And so that’s different from where you’re at now? Jenna: 04:23 Yep. Mark: 04:24 Okay. Okay, cool. So you homesteaded, you are, you’re off the grid, right? Jenna: 04:29 Yup. Mark: 04:30 Which is something unique, I think. Jenna: 04:34 Not new, but yeah. Not Foraging For Wild Food Mark: 04:36 People use it all the time, right. Jenna: 04:40 Probably not by choice. Mark: 04:41 Yeah, exactly. So you grew up there though, and tell a… Jenna: 04:45 I grew up in southern southern Maine, but yeah, I’ve been in Maine for the majority of my life. I did a couple stints in New Hampshire and one in New York City and they didn’t last long. Mark: 04:56 A little different. New York City. Jenna: 04:57 Not into it. Mark: 04:58 How long? Jenna: 04:59 Mm. Like four years. Mark: 05:02 Wow. That’s pretty good run. Foraging For Wild Food Jenna: 05:03 Yeah, I went to college there. Mark: 05:05 Okay. Okay, cool. You go back and visit? Jenna: 05:09 Uh, a handful of times. Yeah. But no. Yeah, I do like it to visit, but not to live. I can’t afford it. Mostly is the problem. I think if I made more money I might have liked it a whole lot more. It’s not that fun being poor in a city. It’s a lot easier being poor in a, in a rural environment, Mark: 05:28 So you grew up your, uh, your mom is like a homeopath?… Jenna: 05:35 An Herbalist. Mark: 05:36 Okay. Okay. And so as part of that, did you as a, as a kid forage? Foraging For Wild Food Jenna: 05:41 Yeah, that was my introduction to it. Okay. Okay. And what types of things would you forge? Um, well I guess my two, the two clearest memories I have from childhood, uh, like in that introductory phase with her, there was this one time, uh, I was standing on the porch, we had this big rottweiler and I was just throwing a stick for it and didn’t realize that the dog was attached to a rope and the rope was wrapped around my leg. And so it went off the porch and took me with it. And so I had like this massive rope burn around my knee, and then my mom came out into the yard and she just picked a couple of plantain leaves, common plantain leaves, and um Sorta chewed them up. Yeah. And rolled them up into her hand, made a little Poltis, put it on my rope burn and you know, it worked. Wow. Uh, so that was, I think that was my first memory of a, of like realizing that plants had something to offer me. You know what I mean? Like, oh, these are useful. They’re not just like here. Mark: 06:56 Right. Jenna: 06:56 Um, and then I think other than that, the other clear memory that I have is, uh, my, my great grandparents, uh, got a cottage on a beach in southern Maine and, um, the whole coast is covered in beach roses and they get those big fat rose hips. Yeah. Late summer, early fall. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so I remember eating those as kid. Mark: 07:19 Can’t save ever eaten them. Jenna: 07:20 Really? Jamie: 07:20 How did you prepare? Jenna: 07:21 I just ate them off the bush. Jamie: 07:23 Really? The seeds and all? Jenna: 07:27 No, you’ve got to eat it like an apple. You know, you got to treat the seeds like a core. The seeds are really irritate your mouth or fuzzy. Jamie: 07:33 Yeah. They’re terrible. Foraging For Wild Food Jenna: 07:33 Yeah, they are. Mark: 07:35 So, does it have any medicinal benefits that … Jenna: 07:38 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Full of vitamin C. Yeah. Rizveratrol. Um, a bunch of other stuff then I’m probably not going to recall right now as you give a disclaimer, by the way that my brain is functioning at like 10% right now. I you’re getting like some, uh, uh, alter ego of myself right now. I will give you some slack. Thank you. Okay, I’ll take it. So, um… Remainder of transcript available upon request. Thanks for listening to the Modern Carnivore podcast on Foraging For Wild Food. You can continue the journey by going to modcarn.com.


27 Apr 2019

Rank #6

Podcast cover

Chronic Wasting Disease In Deer – Modern Carnivore Podcast (Ep. 007)

Chronic Wasting Disease In this seventh episode of the Modern Carnivore Podcast I sit down with Dr. Lou Cornicelli who is the Wildlife Research Manager for the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources. Dr. Cornicelli has dedicated his professional career to the study and management of large ungulates (mammals with hooves). We primarily discuss Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) and the risks this disease poses to our wild deer herd. If you’re just starting your hunting journey please don’t let this topic scare you in any way from continuing with your journey, but do educate yourself on the topic as it’s an important one. Dr. Lou Cornicelli is on the Modern Carnivore Podcast talking about Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in deerClick To Tweet Dr. Lou Cornicelli recording the Modern Carnivore Podcast in 2017 Why Listen to The Modern Carnivore Podcast? With all the podcasts out there why would you want to listen to this one? Well, if you’re looking for a new adventure in the outdoors we’ve got some very interesting guests talking about topics related to honest food and wild adventures. Get ready to be entertained and enlightened on topics related to hunting, fishing, foraging…and more. Here are a couple other podcasts you may be interested in: Episode 6: Tom Landwehr, the former Commissioner of the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources talking “deer camp” and more. Episode 5: Howard Vincent, The CEO of Pheasants Forever which is one of the leading hunting conservation organizations in the U.S. Do you have a question that you’d like answered on the podcast, or an idea for an episode? Shoot us a note at info@modcarn.com. Reference Links For This Podcast New CWD-positive deer in Crow Wing County and southeastern Minnesota require additional disease monitoring and management Minnesota Lawmaker Seeks Tougher Action Against Deer Disease CDC Map Showing Spread Of CWD Across States 2017 News Story on Cervid Farm Testing Positive for CWD in Merrifield, MN Subscribe to the Modern Carnivore Podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify and Podbean. Please support the podcast by giving us honest feedback on iTunes or wherever you listen to the podcast. And if you do like it, don’t forget to tell your friends about it! Dr. Lou Cornicelli is on the Modern Carnivore Podcast talking about Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in deerClick To Tweet Transcript Of Podcast Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Intro: 00:09 Welcome to the Modern Carnivore Podcast, a guide for those interested in hearing more about hunting, fishing, and other paths to eating more responsibly. Now, here’s your host, Mark Norquist. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 00:22 Hello everyone, and welcome to this episode seven of the Modern Carnivore Podcast. I’d like to thank everyone who has been sending notes and a positive (comments) in terms of asking when our next episode was coming out. And I do need to apologize because I have been relatively inconsistent in pushing these out, uh, recently. And that’s mainly a function of a very busy lifestyle. And I love this platform for having conversations and introducing new people to you and new topics. And so I’m really going to put an effort this next year around putting out episodes more consistently. So, uh, look for that. And again, I appreciate your positive feedback on the recent episodes. So today I am joined by Dr Lou Cornicelli. Ah, Lou is a leading wildlife biologist who has really dedicated his career to the study of large ungulates. For those of you aren’t familiar with the term ungulates, it is a hooved mammal. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 01:31 Uh, so things like deer, elk, moose, et cetera. And he is the Wildlife Research Manager for the Department of Natural Resources. What we talk about today is a little bit of the history of science in managing wildlife. Uh, for those of you listen to other podcasts, it is the North American model that we reference quite often. We talk about a pretty serious issue and that is chronic wasting disease or CWD. We do a pretty deep dive so that you can better understand the facts around it. And then on the back half, Lou talks about a recent, a little bit of a while ago, but uh, uh, recent Elk hunt in Colorado up at 11,000 feet when he packed in with some horses and took some new hunters and their experience. So, the main bulk of today’s conversation is on a very serious topic and that is chronic wasting disease or CWD, in deer. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 02:33 To give you a little bit of background and just to try to take a lot of this deep science and try to make it into some, some manageable chunks to understand. What it is, is a, it’s a, it’s a protein or a misshapen protein that causes a holes in the brain of the animal in, in deer in this case that were focusing on, it was first discovered in 1967 in Colorado. It’s similar to, um, bovine spongiform encephalopathy, which is BSC, but the more common term is mad cow disease or, uh, Creutzfeldt-Jakob (disease). Uh, which is hard to say. I don’t even know if I pronounced it properly there. But it’s a very rare disease that’s a very rare disease in humans. Uh, it’s, it’s, it’s important to note that CWD is not (been) found to transfer to humans. Uh, they have not found any, any proof to that. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 03:31 Uh, these, there’ve been studying it for quite some time and it’s a slow growing disease, but it is impacting the population levels of deer. That’s what they’re finding. And so that’s where a big concern comes about. It’s been found in at least 24 states and basically we’re going to have to live with this disease in the wild deer herd, but we can manage it in the best ways possible. And that’s I think something that is important. And again, no, that there isn’t any evidence that this disease can be transferred to humans. Now that being said, the CDC (Center for Disease Control) does recommend not eating any meat from an infected dear, um, just to, just to be, just to be safe. But this disease really does cause concern for all of us, both the health and safety of our wildlife as well as the economic costs and risks to activities like deer hunting, which in the state of Minnesota, hunting both deer and other animals represents $1.3 `billion of economic value to this state every year. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 04:45 So it’s a, it’s a very significant economic impact as well as all of the other benefits of, of this form of hunting. So I also want to to, to preface this conversation for new hunters with, with the, the statement of, you know, don’t, don’t let this discussion dampen your enthusiasm about getting out into the woods. This is an issue that you need to be aware of and you need to understand it better. Hopefully today’s discussion helps in that process, but it shouldn’t stop you from continuing your hunting journey. Uh, make sure you engage with others and ask questions so that you’re informed on the topic and you know, what’s, what’s going on. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 05:34 So a personal note now, um, this topic of CWD has gotten very personal for me in just the last 24 hours. This upcoming discussion, you’re going to listen to Dr. Cornicelli and I talk and we actually recorded this in the fall of 2017 so a while ago. And we reference in that discussion a cervid farm near my hometown of Brainerd, Minnesota. And it’s not too far from my hunting camp. Well, just yesterday, about 14 months after this discussion with Dr. Cornicelli We have our first recorded CWD-positive wild deer case outside of what’s considered the hot zone, which are three counties down in southeast Minnesota. This is where the disease within our state has historically been found through testing. And so this press release that just came out yesterday is regarding a wild deer from northern Minnesota, nearly 300 miles from the southeast region of the state where that hot zone is and and wild deer have have been tested and found to have the disease. However, this, this announcement yesterday also points out that it was only a half mile from the captive cervid farm that Dr. Cornicelli and I are talking about in this conversation from nearly two years ago. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 07:03 And so the important thing to know is that that cervid farm, did/head previously been found to have CWD-positive deer inside their fences. Another thing I’d like to clarify because there’s a lot of terms thrown around and just to make sure everybody understands this, so when we talk about captive cervid farms, what are they? It’s really a fenced-`in area, generally wooded acreage or a farm where deer and elk are captive and then harvested through shooting. I wouldn’t call it hunting or as Dr. Cornicelli says, it’s high fence killing of domesticated animals. So you might hear terms, other terms reference of these types of operations, either highfence hunts or shooting pens or shooting preserves. But that’s what we’re talking about here. And I’m sure that most of these captive cervid farms are doing everything they can to contain their animals and stop the spread of this disease. But the reality is that the evidence points to an undeniable connection between these outfits and the disease. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 08:16 Minnesota has confirmed CWD in seven, at least seven, I believe, farmed cervid operations. So we know it’s there. Uh, the announcement yesterday again, was just within a half mile of a captive cervid facility. And that same facility had previously had CWD-positive deer found inside, inside of their fences. And, so then the question may come of, okay, well where did it come from inside of that farm? Well, that farm had previously bought a deer or exchanged deer with another cervid farm that the USDA had found had also had CWD and they actually bought it, the USDA bought that farm and depopulated it . In other words they euthanized every one of the deer because of the risk of it was posing to the herd. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 09:17 So the reality is that when deer are transported from one operation to another, we, we see a connection in that transfer of CWD. And here in Minnesota, like many states across the US, the challenge is that, um, the Board Of Animal Health oversees regulation of livestock such as these farms, but the Department of Natural Resources oversees the regulation and management of the wild deer herd. And all we have between those two populations are these wire fences. And the reality is, um, that, that there are oftentimes breaches in these and we get a mixture of those, those two herds. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 10:05 So the question you need to consider is what level of risk are we willing to take with our wild deer herd and what can be done to manage the risk in the best way possible? Here in Minnesota, right now, we have a legislator, Minnesota representative, Jamie Becker-Finn. Uh, she recently introduced legislation, um, or discuss legislation this last week to get in front of CWD and better manage the risks to our deer herd and the hunting community. And I’ll put information on, on those, those, uh, links within the shownotes page. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 10:45 So, I hope today’s conversation is informative and that you come away with some new insights on these topics and, uh, enjoy. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 10:57 Okay. I am joined this morning here with Lou Cornicelli. Uh, who is a, I believe your current role is wildlife research manager. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Lou: 11:05 I am. Mark: 11:05 Okay. Great. For the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources. Um, I’ve known Lou for quite a few years here. I think we met with the adult mentored hunt. Lou: 11:15 We mentored adult learn to hunt folks. Yeah. Saint Croix State Park. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 11:21 Absolutely. Um, and, uh, and so, you know, I’ve, I’ve obviously read a lot of things in terms of you, you were previously, uh, the big game program leader here in Minnesota, correct? Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Lou: 11:33 Yup. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 11:33 Okay. And in that role, you from a biologist perspective are setting standards for management of, of the deer herd, correct? Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Lou: 11:44 Correct. Yeah. We, everything from helping set population goals with a public process to designing regulations that at the time that I started, the regulations were designed, or, I was charged with figuring out easier ways to kill deer. So we’d, we’d gotten rid of the lottery system in 2003 and a lot of the state. And so, you know, the goals were to make it easier for people to get out and hunt and take deer. Figure out what those populations should be. And also we did a lot of work on looking at alternative regulations. Uh, we did a lot of antler point restriction research that, that culminated in that APR that’s down in the southeastern Minnesota. So we, you know, do a lot with deer, you know, and then that big game position also covers moose and elk. So it’s a, it’s a fulltime times two job. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 12:34 So here’s one thing that I think a lot of people, actually, there was, there was a study this last year, uh, on, on general American population regarding the topic of hunting and I found it interesting that a lot of people did not realize, or do not realize, um, that, that the animal populations are managed. Uh, they just sort of, you know, have this idea that people grab a gun and go out and hunt and they aren’t regulated. And so, maybe if you could share with people just what is the basics of, I mean, your discipline in terms of how, how wildlife is managed? Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Lou: 13:08 Yeah, I mean that’s, that’s uh, it’s a good history to tell. Um, a lot of wildlife harvest was unregulated through the turn of the 20th century, into the 1900s. And that’s where you saw the depletion of game populations, extinction of some species like the passenger pigeon. Um, the dramatic declines in waterfowl for plumage, uh, uh, you know, in 1903 Theodore Roosevelt designated the first National Wildlife Refuge – Pelican Island. Um, so that, that conservation history really started with, uh, the Boone and Crockett club that was formed by Gifford Pincho and Theodore Roosevelt and others through a conservation congress. And it’s evolved over time. And really the first game laws came into, uh, into effect in the very early 1900s with the Migratory Bird Treaty Act in 1918 the Lacey act in 1900 or 1903. So we, we had this, we being our, you know, the, the folks who thought deeply about perpetuation of games, species, um, started to institute, these laws and over time starting really with Aldo Leopold in Wisconsin, we had this, this field called wildlife management and people started to, to, to manage game populations and Leopold wrote a book and I think it was 1933 or 38 called Game Management. And that’s still a book that students have to read. It’s the basic premise of managing fish and game populations for the public good. And this profession has really evolved through that time. And it’s that modern conservation through the sale of hunting and fishing licenses that gives us the, the species that we have today. So we, we work, we work are managed under a system where users pay the form of licenses but everyone benefits. And that benefit is, it can be consumptive, it can be nonconsumptive so that, you know, our field really came about as a product of over harvest and no regulations to where it is now, where we’ve actively manage wildlife species and more, more importantly, their habitats for the benefit of both the species and the folks that like to use them. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Mark: 15:18 You know, and that, that’s something that, that I love. I love telling that story of, of, of um, hunters and anglers who raised their hands and said, we need to self regulate back when they’re back, when there were problems. And I think it a, it was a very, the outcome was exactly what you said, what we have today and we’ve got healthy populations, we’ve got these wonderful wild places that everyone has access to and can benefit from. Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Lou: 15:47 Yeah, I agree. You know, and I think what I think what does also get lost. Um, if you think about, let’s, let’s forget anglers, I don’t, I don’t deal so much with the event, but, uh, if you think about hunters, I, uh, the most people and probably including hunters, don’t know that this thing we call the North American model of wildlife conservation is funded by people who, by hunting and fishing licenses. And I can speak for my agency, a division of fish and wildlife. I work in the section of wildlife. We get no tax revenue. We didn’t, we get zero for general fund money. Now we get outdoor heritage money that we compete for. Remainder pending… Podcast: Chronic Wasting Disease in Deer Outro: 29:36 Thanks for listening to the Modern Carnivore podcast on Chronic Wasting Disease with Dr. Lou Cornicelli. You can continue the journey by going to modcarn.com.


19 Feb 2019

Rank #7

Podcast cover

MN DNR Commissioner Tom Landwehr – Modern Carnivore Podcast (Ep. 006)

In this sixth episode of the Modern Carnivore Podcast I sit down with Tom Landwehr who is the Commissioner of the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources. This is a position that is appointed by the Governor of Minnesota. Tom has been in this position for eight years, overseeing the management of wildlife and habitat across the state. I caught up with the Commissioner at the 2017 Minnesota Governor’s Deer Hunting Opener to talk about the culture of deer camp and the work his agency does in the state of Minnesota. In early 2019 he is ending his tour of duty as the Commissioner, so while I’m very delayed in getting this post out I felt it was important to share this conversation with a true conservation leader. Tom Landwehr, Commissioner of the MN DNR and Defender of the Land is on the Modern Carnivore PodcastClick To Tweet Why Listen to The Modern Carnivore Podcast? With all the podcasts out there why would you want to listen to this one? Well, if you’re looking for a new adventure in the outdoors we’ve got some very interesting guests talking about topics related to honest food and wild adventures. Get ready to be entertained and enlightened on topics related to hunting, fishing, foraging…and more. Here are a couple other podcasts you may be interested in: Episode 5: Howard Vincent, The CEO of Pheasants Forever which is one of the leading hunting conservation organizations in the U.S. Episode 4: Daniel Galhardo is the Founder and CEO of Tenkara USA. Listen to the story about how he brought the unique Japanese style of fly fishing called Tenkara to the US. Do you have a question that you’d like answered on the podcast, or an idea for an episode? Shoot us a note at info@modcarn.com. Subscribe to the Modern Carnivore Podcast on iTunes and/or Stitcher. Please support the podcast by giving us honest feedback on iTunes or wherever you listen to the podcast. And if you do like it, don’t forget to tell your friends about it! Tom Landwehr, Commissioner of the MN DNR and Defender of the Land is on the Modern Carnivore PodcastClick To Tweet Transcript Of Podcast Intro: 00:09 Welcome to the Modern Carnivore Podcast, a guide for those interested in hearing more about hunting, fishing, and other paths to eating more responsibly. Now, here’s your host, Mark Norquist. Mark: 00:22 Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Modern Carnivore podcast. Today I’m joined by Tom Landwehr and this is actually a recording from back in 2017 at the Minnesota Governor’s deer hunting opener event, and this is an event that’s gone on for many years here in Minnesota and I think is a great reflection of the importance of deer camp culture and the deer hunting season to our state, that the Governor would put an event like this together. Commissioner Landwehr is now ending his tour here as the as the Commissioner of the Department of Natural Resources in early 2019, and so I thought it was appropriate to get this podcast recording out as the commissioner of the DNR. He is appointed by the governor to really enforce hunting, fishing and outdoor recreation laws, and also manage much of the public land that exists within the state of Minnesota. There are also federal and county lands, but they’re much of it is managed by the state, which is then managed by this organization, the Department of Natural Resources for both recreation as well as industry like timber and mining. They also deal with threats to the land and water like invasive species in diseases like chronic wasting disease, that’s starting to affect the deer herd in different areas of the country. Stepping back for a moment, if you look at the North American model for conservation, one of the tenants of it calls for scientific management of wildlife and habitats and state agencies are a big part of that management model. In Minnesota it’s called the department of natural resources or the DNR. In other states it’s called game and fish or the department of fish and wildlife or the department of fish, wildlife and parks. A lot of different names, but they all in essence to do the same thing, which is managing the habitat and the wildlife for the future. So if you’re new to hunting and fishing, make sure you familiarize yourself with all that the agency within your state does. They’ve often got a lot of great resources such as details, obviously on game laws, but also things like maps with access to public lands and along those lines. Get to know your, your conservation officer or “CO” as, as they’re referred to often, uh, in the areas where you want to hunt and fish and they can be a great resource for you. So I hope you enjoyed today’s conversation with Commissioner Tom Landwehr. Mark: 03:18 Okay, we are here with Commissioner Tom Landwehr of the Minnesota DNR. Thank you for joining me this morning. It’s a pleasure to be here. Absolutely. So we are actually at Timberlake Lodge here in northern Minnesota, uh, kicking off the 2017 Minnesota deer hunting opener with, uh, the governor yourself, uh, and a whole list of dignitaries and a local hunters from all corners of the state. I even met people from, uh, as far away as Washington state last night at the dinner. So, um, so what, what’s with the tradition of, of deer camp here in Minnesota. Tom: 04:03 Well, and so we are in grand rapids to be a little more specific, which is got it’s byline grand rapids. It’s in your nature. This is a town that embraces outdoor activities, you know, including hunting and fishing. Were on the doorstep, so the Chippewa National Forest, one of the favorite places of Minnesotans to go and camp and recreate, but it’s the opener. The deer opener is a big day in Minnesota. There are 500,000 deer hunters in the state of Minnesota and 450,000 of them give or take will be out on Saturday morning on their deer stand, doing their drives, a whatever, however they choose to hunt in Minnesota and we know from surveys that 25 percent of those people hunt exclusively on public lands and we’re very fortunate in have that in Minnesota. I tell people all the time that we’ve got, you know, at least three things that make deer hunting really exceptional in Minnesota. One is we’ve got a very good dear for great. Now we’ve had two years of increasing deer numbers. We have a snow on the ground which makes it easier to attract here. Obviously had seed here and we have excess that is free to millions and millions of acres of public lands that we have really got a all of the ingredients. Just an exceptional a deer season in Minnesota. Mark: 05:27 So who, who owns these public lands? Well, and that’s a really good subtle point. We talk about public lands, but they are your lands that are my lands, they are our lands. These are lands that belonged to the public, which is what we call them public lands, but they are, they are owned by the state of Minnesota for the benefit of the people that sit them and so on. I remember when I was young, um, first stumbling across Carlos Avery. I was, grew up in the cities and they lived in the cities, but it was a hunters and anglers. Tom: 05:58 I remember stumbling across Carlos Avery Wildlife Management or some 25,000 acres just north of the twin cities. And coming into this piece of ground is huge piece of ground, right? That’s like 40 square miles and thinking I can hunt here now. I could have like gun out. I can be walking along with a shotgun anywhere I want. I could shoot a pheasant or a duck. I forgot up. I thought this has gotta be illegal. It’s be illegal in the city. You just don’t do this. And here we were 20 minutes from the city. It’s been, it’s, and it is still there today, Carlos, or do wealth management are still an extraordinarily popular place for people to hunt Mark: 06:33 To me that is a, that is something that’s, it’s just such a quintessential American experience from the standpoint of, uh, the ability and the freedom to go do that Uh, and you know, on, on tons of lands, tons of opportunities. Tom: 06:52 You Bet. Mark: 06:52 So, Commissioner, if you could talk about what’s the difference from either a hunter experience or from a legal perspective on county versus state versus federal? Because there’s a lot of focus with public lands right now on the federal. Uh, but in Minnesota, you know, where I hunt, where I deer hunt, um, is, is nearly all county and state. That’s what I’m usually on. So what’s the difference? Tom: 07:21 You know, I think we’re, we’re very lucky in Minnesota and that the different levels of government tend to have comparable rules about how to use the land. So, um, you know, I think most once upon a time you could build a permanent stand in Minnesota on federal land, on state land and Coney Atlanta permanent stay. Of course you’d bring the two by fours out, you’re bringing along nails, pounded it into a tree and it stays there. And, and, uh, all levels of government has gotten away from that. And the reason is because those forests are still managed for timber. So, uh, it’s not a, you can’t do as a logger or you can’t as a mill have timber that’s got nails in it. And so, uh, just even recently the federal government has been going to the state as been going to. This county is going as a use of portable stands only. So you bring it in, you bring it out. It doesn’t have nails in a tree. But other than that, you know, I think almost all of those lands have comparable laws. You only think, I think, well, what am I going to do as a hunter? Well, the one thing I might do, it’s somewhat intrusive if you will, would be to put up a stand, but if you’re using a portable, uh, the, the, the rules are comparable all the way across. You can go in with a portable, you put it up, you can leave it overnight on state forest land, federal land, a, not even a wildlife management area, but you can state a state forest county unfortunately and so on. But then it’s just common sense. You know, I don’t leave a bunch of garbage there. I don’t crossover on a private land. I don’t drive where I shouldn’t be driving. So the good thing is that the rules are pretty comparable across all three types of land. Mark: 09:01 And so, so you can leave a stand overnight on state. Does county in Minnesota, is that vary or is that consistent across all the counties? Tom: 09:14 I think there is something like eight counties that own that have land under management and it’s for the most part in Minnesota. This is more detail than you need, but it’s county texts for Finland, so tracks of land that had gone texts forfeit to state technically owns it, the county managers and they’ll, they’ll typically manage for timber products or for recreation. And so here we are in Itasca county is a bunch of land and a test county that is owned by the state, managed by the county and are open to public access. Mark: 09:46 So, how much…Do you know off the top of your head (how much) public land (there is) in Minnesota specifically?…how much we have? Tom: 09:54 It is something approaching 12 million acres. Mark: 09:57 Wow. Tom: 09:58 And a significant portion of that, 8 million acres give or take, is actually owned by the state of Minnesota, which means you and me, right? It’s owned based in Minnesota. About two and a half million of that is, is County tax forfeit. The remainder is owned by the state, managed by the dnr, but then you know, the people, and again, people don’t necessarily need to differentiate who is administering wetlands, but we have a bunch of federal land. So here we are on the back door of Chippewa National Forest, right, beautiful, beautiful piece of land, you know, with a big lakes when leach and so on. But then we’ve got the Superior (National Forest) and you’re well familiar with Superior. It’s got the Boundary Waters (Canoe Area Wilderness). It’s got all of the Arrowhead of Minnesota. We’ve got two, 3 million acres of national forest and then we’ve got a federal Waterfowl Production Areas and National Wildlife Refuges on the western part of the state. So we are just extraordinarily fortunate to have this diverse mixture of public lands that are open access for anybody who wants to use them for birdwatching or hiking or hunting or fishing. Mark: 11:01 You know, I, I was recently doing a hunt out west in antelope hunt out west and it was my first experience with the patchwork of public versus private lands out there. And we don’t really have that problem here in Minnesota. Do we? I mean our, most of our, you know, we have obviously private versus public, but it’s not, it’s, it doesn’t appear to me to be that type of patchwork that becomes challenging. But how does a new hunter know, where’s public and where is private? Tom: 11:31 Yeah. Well, and you know, in fact, in this part of the state and the forest in Minnesota, we actually do have quite a patchwork and it’s, and it’s kind of interesting when you look at a plat book because you will have a, the section is owned by the state of Minnesota administered by DNR. You have this part that’s owned by the state of Minnesota, owned by a managed by the county of this section that’s owned by the federal government managed by the Forest Service. We do have very much of a patchwork, but it is all still public. Right? So you can still cross those lines I think. And the other thing is we have a trespass law in Minnesota that says you cannot walk past a sign that says no trespassing, but if forest land is unposted, a Minnesota law allows you to walk onto that land. And so on. In northern Minnesota, we have a lot of load, I would call industrial forest. So Blandin owns land in Potlatch owns land owns land. Thousands, hundreds of thousands of acres. And that is historically been, uh, treated as public land. That is, the, is private legal notice. Private companies have allowed people to just walk into those lines of hunter’s land. So when you’re in northern Minnesota, if you see a don’t trespass sign, it’s typically a small owner that owns that. If you don’t see a sign there, technically you can, you can go in there and hunt. Mark: 12:49 So, we were just a couple weeks ago recording a podcast with a land tawny who is the CEO and President of Backcountry Hunters & Anglers. And your last name is Landwehr. I believe your forestry division head, his first name is Forrest. So I’m just wondering, do you need to have land or forest in your name to be working in this field? Tom: 13:10 You know, I, I don’t think it’s a requirement. I have not seen that in the position description anywhere. But I think in my own case, my dad always used to say, you know, it’s a German name Landwehr. Obviously he. Oh, she’s a defender of the land. Yeah. And I think it’s more from the terms of militia. I think that, you know, if you’re actually in Germany, it’s sort of the name of the militia, but I always took that to heart. Well that’s my job is defending the land. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your background. You are, you are that the commissioner of the Department of natural resources appointed by the governor of the state of Minnesota. Um, how do you get, how do you get there? Where did you start? You have to be really bad and you have to really, you know, uh, deserve a place, a special place in the Netherlands in order to get this job. Tom: 13:54 It’s punishment for what I did in my youth, what I’m convinced. But. Well, I, uh, I grew up in the cities and uh, I’ve always had an interest in hunting and fishing and uh, Kinda floundered through my first years of college until I realized that there was actually a program at the University of Minnesota in fish and wildlife management. And I thought, well, that would be outstanding if I could get a degree in hunting and fishing. And so I started in the wildlife management program at the university, uh, you know, went through, got my undergraduate, got a graduate degree, started working with dnr back in the eighties as a wildlife biologist and I started working on private lands, a counseling land owners how to improve their land for pheasants in particular. Ultimately became a wildlife manager where I worked on public lands and always in the southern part of the state. Tom: 14:39 So it was always a grasslands. I’ve always had an affinity for birds, pheasants and ducks a. So really got to work, uh, you know, in some really nice places in Minnesota doing wetland management too. Aggressive management, a promoted Indian are ultimately got a job with ducks unlimited, a move to ducks unlimited and help them do their conservation programs in Minnesota and Iowa. I did that for five years. And then I took a job with the nature conservancy in Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota doing the same thing, managing, you know, conservative and these large landscapes for wildlife and managing those to produce maximum a while they’d benefit one at. And at that point the committee and the governor appointed me as commissioner and that was what, how long ago was that? A 2011. Governor Dayton came into office in 2011. January sixth, 2011. The governor appointed me. Mark: 15:31 Okay. So what’s your…You, I think are the classic generalist outdoorsmen from the standpoint of your personal perspective. I think a lot of people nowadays may want to specialize the big game out west Chester upland hunter. I myself am a generalist. I don’t consider myself a focused on any one specific one, but I think people still have their preferences. What are your favorite things to do? You know? Tom: 16:01 And, and I totally am a generalist. I mean, I think when, when I looked back in my younger years, I was, I considered myself a duck hunter. And that’s what I did. I hunted ducks, I looked down my nose at deer hunters. I looked down my nose at pheasant hunters. It’s like duck hunting is the pure Minnesota thing, right? Well, as, as I have gotten older, I’ve realized that, you know, why would I limit myself to one thing? Because we have so much opportunity for so many things here and when duck hunting is bed, I’ll go pheasant hunting. Pheasant hunting is no good to go deer hunting, you know, and you’re good to go fishing. And so we are so fortunate in Minnesota, have the opportunity to do all of those things and with each change of the season and another opportunity presents itself. So I find that being a generalist, well I can’t be, you know, I can’t be the top notch angler. I can’t be the top notch deer hunter. Like I am a generalist in by definition than I am not specializing any of those. I still have a great time being out every season that we have in Minnesota Mark: 16:56 I do too. It’s that, that to me is, that is the beauty of, of being that way is you literally. My, my, uh, my mom used to joke that my dad, when they got married, said, you know, don’t worry, it’s just, it’s a hunt. But in the fall, and she soon realized that that fall bird hunting went into deer hunting and deer hunting went into early ice fishing season. I went into Tom: 17:19 Well fall for restarts in liberty, I go pick wild rice, right, pick wild rice and, and it’s hunting and gathering, pick wild rice on labor day and shortly thereafter the small game season opens and shortly after the Hetero, the, the duck season opens and then the pheasant season, then the deer season and know the festive season goes till the end of the year, January one, January one comes and goes and it’s the saddest day of the year because I cleaned the guns and put them away. I’m always fixing them next day, you know, it’s like, Hallelujah. Mark: 17:48 Exactly. Always, always something to do, which reminds me, I do want to have a. we’ll have to have you on again sometime to talk about wild rice because, uh, I just, I love it. And uh, whenever we have a Modern Carnivore experience event going on, I’ll, I’ll serve for breakfast, I’ll do the mahnomin porridge and people love. Tom: 18:06 People love that thing about wild rice is we sell about 2000 licenses. You, you have to have a license to pick wild rice, but would your $26 license, you can go out and you can pick wild rice for the whole season, which might be two weeks in northern Minnesota. Yeah, you can get hundreds and hundreds of pounds of water isn’t always painful and there’s bugs that will get you and stuff that gets in your sleeves and so on, but but you get a phenomenal product at the end of it. It’s, it’s, it’s a wonderful thing and when you pair it with venison or with a duck pancakes, I make pancakes at home, throwing some cranberries, throwing some pecans. It’s just phenomenal. It is. Mark: 18:46 It’s it. It is wonderful. It’s a great tradition in going back. Just the whole history of it. I love it. And to that, to that point, you know, thinking about deer hunting in Minnesota in deer camp, what is, I think I maybe asked earlier, I forget if we touched on, but what is behind the whole deer camp tradition and the speakers talked about it last night at the dinner a little bit, but is it, is it something in your mind that is unique to Minnesota? Just the way we do it. And what would you say defines what deer camp is about? Tom: 19:18 You know, so I’ve never hunted deer outside Minnesota. So what, what I know about the uniqueness of deer camp is what other people tell me who hunt and other parts of the country and they told me that deer camp is a very unique upper midwest tradition, so I think it’s not. I think you’ll find it in Wisconsin perhaps in Michigan as well. And what I think is the. When I think about that, what I think is the foundation of it is that it’s a public lands, public lands. So we have places you don’t have to own land, you just have to have a tent or a camper or you could have a cabin with no land and then hunting them public. And so I think it is a function of the fact that a lot of our citizens live in the twin cities. A lot of them hunt. They have traditionally gone north to hunt and so they have to have a place to stay, so they have put up a tent or they have a cabin or they have an rv and I, and I think it’s that sort of almost a migration between the twin cities and the deer country that has created this culture of a deer camp and it is, I think it was one of the most phenomenal parts about deer hunting, frank, is that this tradition of deer camp where you go up and you get together with people that you want maybe only see once a year and they are your best friends. Even if you only see them once a year and they have this shared narrative about hunting and they had this shared experience about being in the woods at dawn and it’s just a. it’s extraordinarily rich tradition. I think. Especially for guys, you know, the art, we don’t bond around, you know, this tv show in the morning. You know, we bond around these experiences, especially as outdoor. Yeah. So I think, I think the fact that it gives us that opportunity, I think is what helps keep deer camp alive. Mark: 20:56 You know, it. Um, you really bring it. You bring up an interesting point that I hadn’t thought of before and people who listen to this podcast know that we talk about public land slot. I’m wearing my public lands, um, and it continues to come up in the dialogue consistently. Some people are maybe tired of it, but I like what you just said about that being a foundational element of deer camp because what it, what it means is, is people, you know, here in this state, half a million people know who the majority of them probably don’t have land that they owned a haunt on. Make that migration north, south east or west and meet up with friends. Like you said, that maybe they only see once a year. And, and I’m exactly like that. I’ve been at my family deer camp hunting, hunting deer for 35 years straight. And uh, and it is, it’s that some of the times when maybe relatives, I’m the only time of the year. I see them, what we do, we have that, we have that connection with the bonding and at, over over the fire and telling the stories and it’s fun whether the old guys are, the young guys are telling the story about one that got away or, or, or, or one that they just got. And Tom: 22:12 It is sort of the great equalizer. I mean anybody, you know, the lunchbox guy doesn’t, you know, it paying off a mortgage on his host, doesn’t have any spirit change, can still go to northern Minnesota and still have a phenomenal experience. You know, I just bought a, a, a wall tent this year. Are you dead or for hunting purposes? We use duck hunting and Canada, but it’s one of those things when you go in northern Minnesota, people will set up a wall tent for weeks. Then they’ll go grouse hunting, deer go deer hunting. They’ll go duck hunting or base camp and uh, and, and you can do that. Yeah. Even if all you can afford your mortgage on your house, you could still go to your place up in northern Minnesota and it is your place because people respect each other. You got a tent there I’m going to go half a mile away, a mile away, and I’m gonna set up my tent. But, you know, I’m a, the end of the season. We’ve talked about pheasant hunting earlier. Uh, go through the new year. Uh, I get together with a group of guys. We do a kind of a blog. It’s combined public and private land that we hunt on. I see these guys once a year and that’s it. But these guys who I’ve gotten to know over five or six or eight years of, of hunting there, they’re like friends or like long lost friends. We’d get together once a year. We share stories, but we talked about all of our health problems, right? And, uh, and it’s, it’s just, it’s just a great experience knowing that I have this circle of friends who share this common interest, common love of going out and hunting pheasants. Mark: 23:40 Right? Right. Exactly. So if somebody wanted to, somebody who hasn’t, who has a deer on it before they want to start their own deer camp, what would you, what would you recommend? Tom: 23:52 You know, first off, I will say it is the easiest thing you can imagine. I’m used to just primarily be a bowhunter, but when my kids came along, that’s. Bowhunting is a very solitary thing. It’s not a deer camp experience in my, in my, uh, history. Uh, when my kids came along, I said to myself, I want my kids to know deer camp. And so we started firearms hunting when my son who’s now 19 son came along. And so, uh, we just went up to the Chippewa. We took our summer tent, which actually has a screen rough with a, with a, with a flyover, right? So it is not at all suited for November, but that’s what we use. We went up, we set up a tent in the Chippewa national forest. We got the aerial photos, you know, we found out where we want to go hunt. We brought our portable stands out and we just went and hunted. It is, it is like falling off a log, you just find a corner, you pitch your tent and you had gotten your hunt. Mark: 24:43 I love, you know, it’s, it’s interesting because I’m seeing several people have been talking about that over the last or the last couple of days about the simplicity of it. And um, I used to think that that it would be sort of the, the final step in people’s journey to, to start hunting and get outdoors. And what’s interesting is as I’ve continued to, to, to do this more and more over the last seven, eight years and realizing that it actually is where people are starting a lot of times and I think there’s an attraction to it and I think there is a simplicity to it, like you said, which is, you know, versus if you’re, if you’re going to go duck hunting and you got to get a big spread of decoys. Tom: 25:21 Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, you use a gun whether your shotgun was and assault or your rifle with the bullet in the north. It’s, it is simple. It is. It requires less equipment than virtually anything else. Pheasant hunting, you got to have a dog or duck hunting decoys in a boat, you know, it is a grouse hunting was comparable. Perhaps, you know, all you need is a gun and a piece of land. Mark: 25:47 Yup. Yup. No, exactly. Um, so you, I know are doing a lot of interviews this morning and people are tugging on your sleeve. Um, what, you know, you know, I want to talk about about public waters a bit just because I think you’ve done a lot here to protect them. I’m just real quick. What, what, what are you in the Governor doing relative to waters here? Tom: 26:12 You know, Minnesota is an interesting place because west of us we have what we call western water law and that is the water belongs to whoever owns the land underneath eastern water law says the water belongs to the public and if you can get access to it, you can go anywhere you want on it. So Minnesota is one of those states. So if you can get access to a body of water, you can go anywhere on the surface that water. So we’re very fortunate in that regard. And we have a long tradition going back, decades were dnr acquires accesses, so we call them public water access, right to the boat ramps, everybody knows of and by virtue of just having that little bitty access on a piece of water, the whole water body opens up. Just a phenomenal legacy is phenomenal heritage. We have Minnesota, the state of Minnesota owns 1500 public water access is so 1500 bodies of water you can go onto by virtue of his legal access and fish or hunt or you know, Waterski, whatever you want to do. But in addition to that, there are another 1500 that are owned by other units of government, whether it’s the federal government on the spirit national forest or it’s Chippewa national forest or the county or a city. So there are 3000 public water access instead of Minnesota. It opened up all of that public water for people to use. And then there were an additional 3000. Private access is on that water. So you know, we often talk about and you mentioned and you’re absolutely right, we talk about public lands. We failed to mention that we have millions of acres of public water in Minnesota as well. Right? Right. Now it’s, it’s a wonderful thing. We get such a, a, a, a wealth of have that resource here in this every person’s backyard. Right. So what’s your best hunting story you told one last night at dinner with just the Kitty, kitty cat. Well, I’ll tell it again because it’s a great story. We, uh, on opening weekend we hung out of a buddy George’s place and George has got a couple of kitties cat. A couple years ago he had a kitty, a little bitty black kitty, I don’t know, maybe eight inches long. And when I went out in the morning to go to my stand, this little kid, he got out and it’s like, okay, well let’s find itself. It’s a barn cat. It’ll just walk around all the darn thing followed me a half mile out to my tree stand. And when I climb up with a tree that darn think stay there and me, our it said at the bottom of standing me out. And I thought, well, this is not helping my deer hunting. Also, I went down and picked it up, put it in a stand and that thing sat there the whole day at my feet on a tree stand, curled up in a corner ultimately, you know, try to curl up on my feet and everything and would not leave. And I finally, you know, at the end of the day I did not even see a deer. I suspect I smelled like a cat and when I went back to the farm, the cat came along with me. So the day a 100 with the kitty cat. That is a first. I don’t know anybody who’s ever hunted with a cat before. Well Commissioner, thanks so much for spending time with us this morning. Really appreciate it. My pleasure, mark. Thank you for having me. And good luck and be safe. Yeah, you too. Thanks. Mark: 29:07 So thanks for joining me on today’s podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. And just a reminder, make sure you check out your state’s agency, whether it’s the department of natural resources game and fish or what have you. Check out their website and get to know your local conservation officer who is often times referred to as a seal. They can be a wealth of knowledge and a great resource on your journey into the outdoors. Outro: 29:36 Thanks for listening to the Modern Carnivore podcast. You can continue the journey by going to modcarn.com.


5 Jan 2019

Rank #8

Podcast cover

Howard Vincent, CEO of Pheasants Forever on Modern Carnivore Podcast (Ep. 005)

In this fifth episode of the Modern Carnivore Podcast I sit down with Howard Vincent who is the President and CEO of Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever. The hunting conservation organization he leads is a pioneer in conserving and restoring habitat that benefits upland game. Their work not only supports a healthy environment for pheasants and quail, but many other wild critters, and clean water. Howard grew up in Duluth, MN which is one of my favorite places. He shares what it was like growing up in the north woods with parents who let him roam free, and how he got his kids started off hunting (and doing other things in the woods) at a young age. Listen in on this engaging conversation with a true conservation leader. Howard Vincent, CEO of @pheasants4ever is on the Modern Carnivore PodcastClick To Tweet Howard Vincent – President & CEO of Pheasants Forever & Quail Forever – The Habitat Organization Reference Links from Today’s Podcast Watch Awaken The Hunter Within here – This seven-part film is a documentary on Becca, Pierce and Alex who all decide to learn how to hunt. Follow them on their journey into the world of hunting. Awaken The Hunter Within by Modern Carnivore Why Listen to The Modern Carnivore Podcast? With all the podcasts out there why would you want to listen to this one? Well, if you’re looking for a new adventure in the outdoors we’ve got some very interesting guests talking about topics related to honest food and wild adventures. Get ready to be entertained and enlightened on topics related to hunting, fishing, foraging…and more. Here are a couple other podcasts you may be interested in: Episode 2: Robyn Migliorini from Modern-Hunters.com shares her story of going from vegan to thoughtful hunter Episode 4: Daniel Galhardo is the Founder and CEO of Tenkara USA. Listen to the story about how he brought the unique Japanese style of fly fishing called Tenkara to the US. Do you have a question that you’d like answered on the podcast, or an idea for an episode? Shoot us a note at info@modcarn.com. Subscribe to the Modern Carnivore Podast on iTunes and/or Stitcher. Please support the podcast by giving us honest feedback on iTunes or wherever you listen to the podcast. And if you do like it, don’t forget to tell your friends about it! Here’s a transcript of today’s Episode – Howard Vincent – CEO of Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever Intro:        00:00:09 Welcome to the Modern Carnivore Podcast. A guide for those interested in hearing more about hunting, fishing, and other paths to eating more responsibly. Now, here’s your host, Mark Norquist. Hello and welcome to this episode number five of the Modern Carnivore Podcast. Mark:               00:00:27 Today I’m joined by Howard Vincent. He is the president and CEO of Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever. And if you’re not familiar with them, they are a conservation organization that in my mind represents a really classic example of the good that the hunting community does to promote a healthy ecosystem. Their tagline is “The Habitat Organization” and that is where they put all of their energy is in improving and protecting and conserving the habitat that these birds, pheasants and quail, but also a whole host of other types of wildlife thrive in. They’ve got 150 wildlife biologists that work with them across the country and they’ve got nearly 150,000 members that are in, I think over 700 chapters across the country. So if you’re curious about them, you can probably find a chapter somewhere near you. And if you look at the results of what they’ve done, they’ve had impact on more than I believe, 16 million acres across the country. Mark:               00:01:37 Uh, and those are, those are lands that have benefited from the work that they have done to really promote healthy habitat for, for wild animals and, and clean water. The thing that I’m really passionate about with them though is getting more people out into wild places to hunt and into other outdoor activities. And I’m really excited because we’re going to be partnering together on some Special Projects here in 2019 and we’ll talk more about that later. But, um, I’m just really impressed. Every time I talk with Howard, uh, I find out something new about this organization and I think you’re gonna. Enjoy the conversation today. Just last reminder that today’s episode is being brought to you by our film, awakened the hunter within. If you have not seen it yet on our website, please do check it out. And we will put links to the film in the show notes page. Make sure you check it out. And you can follow Becca Pierce and Alex on their journey into the world of hunting. These are three people, three adults who had never done any hunting before, and we jus chronicle their journey into the world of hunting and everything that goes along with it. And I think you’ll find it’s a. it’s a really interesting story. So we’ll provide a link to that. Just make sure you go to the show notes page and that is at [inaudible] dot com. Forward Slash podcast five. It’s podcast in the number five. Mark:               00:03:08 Okay. Today we are joined by Howard Vincent, who is the president and CEO of Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever. Howard:             00:03:17 Good afternoon, Mark. How are you? Doing? Mark:               00:03:19 Very well. Glad to be here with you. Howard:             00:03:21 Thanks for having me. Mark:               00:03:22 You Bet. So we’re obviously gonna talk a little bit about the organization you run, why it’s important, but I’d like to just start with a little bit of background first of all, on on you as a person. Where did you grow up? What’s your, what’s your background? Howard:             00:03:37 Originally I grew up in the duluth, Minnesota. Okay, great town. One of my favorite tools is it is a born and raised there, went to college there. I’m kind of introduced to hunting there with my family and you know, I come from a big family. I’m the last of 11 kids and um, you know, hunting was, yeah, I wouldn’t say a big part of our family culture, but it was, you know, was there. We did trapping and snaring rabbits and a lot of grouse hunting. Uh, and their, uh, in Duluth if you’re from that area, you don’t grow sun departure John, right. That seems to be seized, but for whatever reason it was partridge and was upland. Was Partridge chanting the main thing? If you did hunter, did you hunt waterfowl? Did you hunt deer? Um, mostly, uh, mostly grouse. And so, you know, we’d occasionally, you know, try to jump some ducks, but, you know, duluth isn’t in that great flyway, but you know, you’re an opportunity on herself. There was no flights coming through. You try to get out on the St Louis River or some of the lakes north of Duluth there. Um, uh, you know, I had friends that uh, that was a kind of a weekend culture in the fall that, you know, three, four of us would always try to get out for, you know, a Saturday and a Sunday out there during high school. Howard:             00:04:59 And uh, it was, uh, it was a great time. It was, uh, you know, we had the north of Duluth, you have the, you know, all the way to the boundary waters, you know, to hunt and it was open access to, to everywhere, you know, you would know at no time would you have to knock on someone’s door, you have the superior national forest, you know, at your feet. So that was spectacular. And you know, growing up, my parents, uh, one of the great weeks, you know, my life, uh, every year, you know, starting when I got my hunter safety programming, you know, when I was 11 or 12 would be the, we’d spend a week out in the woods and we were a poor family. So we didn’t own a tent. We didn’t even own a car. But the older brothers would drop, you know, my father and my mother and myself, just the three of us out in the woods and we would camp out there and we did a, we had a lean to, I mean a piece of tarpaulin and you know, a fry Pan, a pot, you know, food for the week and brothers would drop us off on a Saturday morning and come back, you know, seven, eight days later, the following Sunday and pick us up and you know, for a 12 year old to have, you know, the freedom to go hunt and I get to hunt by myself. Howard:             00:06:15 My Dad would go one way maybe with my mom and I get to go on another and you know, maybe maybe you come back for lunch and maybe you know for sure you’re back for dinner, but you know, to sit out there and plank and have a chance to shoot some rabbits and squirrels and grouse if you are lucky enough and recognize, you know, we never had a hunting dog. Yeah. So, you know, it’s terrible to say, you know, especially in my current position, but we shot grouse there in what was called preflight position yet. So if you saw grouse, you took the grill as well and there are areas up there that the woods are so thick. If you don’t, if you don’t take it at that time, there’s no chance. Exactly. Exactly. What’s your. Do you go up there much anymore? I still do. Howard Vincent Pheasants Forever Howard:             00:07:05 We have a tradition where we still like to go up. My two sons who are now 31 and 29. We tried to get out and it may be over the Thanksgiving weekend. We’ll try to get out for a couple of days, uh, or you know, we actually typically will carve out a week somewhere in the hunting season where just the three of us will get out. Uh, and that, that could be on pheasants or quail or somewhere else in the, in the country here. But just the three of us. And, you know, for me, you know, probably one of the greatest myths is that I, I get to hunt a lot because of my position and that’s, you know, and that’s a, if I get all three, four times in a year, that’s a lot. Um, but I, when I get to go, it’s obviously usually really spectacular opportunities and we’re with um, usually we call it being on [inaudible] will bring state dnr directors, people out of Washington D.C. Uh, we’l l hunt together, talk about our issues and how we can be better partners, um, that we can deliver more conservation. Howard:             00:08:10 Um, so when it is just my boys and myself, that’s magic for me. That’s, you know, we go places where no one knows who I am or what I do. And that’s magic. Mark:               00:08:21 That’s great. One of my hardest, one of my most difficult grouse ever was up in Finland and… Howard:             00:08:28 I have been there and done that. Mark:               00:08:32 We hiked miles and miles and miles through some deep swamps, some perfect country that looked like it should hold. It should hold birds. And I think we got two birds over three days. It was tough, it was a real tough one. Howard:             00:08:49 Probably my best grouse season ever growing up, you know, if I shot 10 grouse that year, that was a great year, right. I mean if you’ve got one or two a day that was spectacular. And uh, you know, now you know, if you know, you know, have friends and acquaintances who have really good hunting dogs and know those magic spots, the difference between a, you know, a, a swamp and a humpback that you’d want to stay out of, you know, and then you hunt the uh, you know, uh, some of the young forest that’s been refurbished and put a good dog on the ground and they’ll shoot their limit every single day. Howard:             00:09:33 That’s, that’s grouse hunting right now. Mark:               00:09:35 So you mentioned the St Louis River, which, uh, I just went out on, on that body of water last year for the first time and got to learn about all the conservation work being done. They’re just an amazing success story. Howard Vincent Pheasants Forever Howard:             00:09:49 It really is. It really is. Yeah. So growing up in Duluth, recognizing, you know, the paper mill in cloquet was dumping in and this we, boy, we got to go back to like 19, late sixties and seventies, and then somebody made a really good decision which was put in the Western Lake Superior Sanitary district, which took all of that runoff and all of those, uh, uh, pollutants cleaned them up in the system and the, I know originally they thought that the river would take 20 years, 30 years to kind of regenerate. And in reality it took like five years. It just turned over that fast. It became an incredible fish fishery. Um, and is really a great story to tell. Mark:               00:10:34 Yeah, it really is. So do you fish? Howard:             00:10:37 A little bit, but I like it. I’m not very good at it. Mark:               00:10:40 I know what you mean. I know what you mean on that front. Um, well good. So the Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever organization. Um, the vision statement is a to ensure current and future generations of hunters and conservationists are able to enjoy abundant populations of wild pheasant, quail and other wildlife, which is a very all- encompassing statement. You’re oftentimes called the habitat organization. So I guess I wanted to ask, how do you define habitat and, uh, what is the magic formula to ensure there’s a future of a healthy habitat for, for not only these, these wild animals, but all of us? Howard:             00:11:29 Yeah, so the, you know, the term for us, you know, as we think about habitat, you know, is really simply, you know, maybe that perfect acre of land that has a nesting cover, a brood rearing cover. It would have, you know, cool or warm season grasses and forbes, right? Wild flowers, uh, that could sustain, you know, a nesting pheasants and quail because he realized that when, uh, those pheasants, a baby chicks are hatched and they come off, they’re only eating protein for the first 20 days roughly in the same thing with quail. You know, they’re not picking seeds. So they need that abundant wild flowers to produce bugs. And so that’s that perfect acre, right? And so we measure our success by acres, so this past year we delivered one point 7 million acres of that habitat and then, you know, if you look at that mission statement, and it does say pheasants, quail and end other wildlife. So we absolutely recognize that the work we do in that acre or those hundred acres or there’s one point 7 million acres of the benefits to other wildlife and in, and not only wildlife, but to, you know, how we protect our soils, how we protect our water, uh, in that it’s not just pheasants and quail, but it’s deer, Turkey and its pollinators and it’s monarchs and you know, at Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever. Howard:             00:13:04 We have some other large initiatives, the, ah sage grouse initiative out 11 state region out west. Uh, we’ve got a lesser prairie chicken initiative, which is a five state region in the southwest. And so again, if the, you know, we raised dollars locally through the chapters, we try to match those with our federal state partners and we can create these habitat, a hikers, uh, regardless of where they are in the United States and with quail forever brand, obviously, you know, from the southeast Florida, Georgia, all the way out to California and Washington and you’re looking at valley quail and California quail and the desert quail species, as long as those dollars go on the ground to improve that wildlife habitat there, that’s the magic of it. You know, we don’t release any birds of any type, you know, the dollars go in the ground. Mark:               00:14:01 And, I’ve heard you say that before the “dollars go in the ground”, I love that phrase. It’s so true. Just in terms of, of where all the effort is going. I’m in and I think a lot of times people don’t realize the benefits to the whole ecosystem to all of the other species. Like you said, even though you’ve got, um, these two particular species in your name that the work you do is so beneficial far beyond that to all these, to all these other living, living creatures in the environment, so to speak. Howard:             00:14:37 Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, the magic of the organization and the energy that has come here relates a lot to our volunteers and our membership base and you know, make no mistake, you know, are 140,000 members, avid hunters and they identify with being a pheasant hunter or being a quail hunter. But they also absolutely recognize that, you know, if they’re going to have land to hunt, if they’re going to have access to that land and if they’re going to have a successful hunt, that they have to put something back in the ground themselves, that it doesn’t happen magically. Howard:             00:15:16 It does take hard work and you know, that’s the, I think the really the magic of the organization and our short 35 years, uh, I think we’ve delivered over $70, million acres of habitat on the ground. Um, you know, and then, you know, what else do we do, what else should we be doing and you know, that enters into this next generation of hunters that we want to come and be the next conservationist on that landscape. So let’s, let’s talk about that next generation of hunters. Um, how important are mentors to new hunters and what is pheasants forever and quail forever? Um, do around in that space. Yeah, that’s critically important. If you think about, uh, the, the, you know, myself, uh, you know, I could, you know, sure, call my father, my mentor. Um, so it comes in different forms. It could be your father, your grandfather, family, friends, but you absolutely need that social network, you know, to be introduced to hunting, to find your way and are not just learning, but again, to have access to, you know, have those, all those components have a knowledge on how to hunt and whether that’s pheasants or deer hunting or waterfowl hunting, there’s a, there’s an art to it, there’s challenges, there’s safety concerns of all this and that all comes with a mentor and they can come in different shapes. Howard:             00:16:50 It could be your, uh, that, that first child’s a hunter safety director, program director, and again, it could be family or it could be someone who does want to pass on their knowledge and passion for the outdoors to others. Uh, and we’re in this moment right now where we are not only concerned about getting, you know, young children outside, uh, to learn about hunting and shooting the outdoor sports, uh, but we’ve got to actually even bring the old dogs back, uh, people who have of maybe left the field for whatever reason, we need to engage them and bring them back into the hunting community. We’re, you know, over the last five years, we’ve dropped a 2 million hunters according to the US fish and wildlife service. So we’re adult just over 11 million participants right now. Um, and if we only focused those 12 year olds there a cost to wildlife and conservation, uh, would be dramatic. Howard:             00:17:57 And we could lose this sport. We could lose this North American model of hunting. Uh, and so, um, there was a council form the council to advance hunting and shooting sports, a pheasants forever and quail for our, our, uh, one of those members along with ducks unlimited and the national wild Turkey Federation, Archery Trade Association, National Shooting Sports, and there’s a State Department, natural resources were members of this and we’ve developed what’s called r three, which is recruitment, retention and reactivation. So we have to bring individuals of all ages into this sport and back to the sport, uh, and including, uh, you know, the 60, 70 year old guys who have maybe put their guns away, we want them to come back out and be those mentors and introduce others to the outdoors. And, you know, we do see, uh, you know, we really believe we can turn this around. Uh, we believe we can build this a hunting community. Howard:             00:18:56 Again, I’m, you know, in Minnesota at this moment, the shooting sports are just exploding in the high schools and scholastic plays. I mean there’s, I think they had 12,000 kids participate in the shooting sports and it’s the number one lettered high school sport in Minnesota, bigger than football and hockey. Mark:               00:19:15 I know bigger than hockey in the state of hockey, which to me, when I heard that stat recently, I was amazed Howard:             00:19:21 And it’s, and it’s growing. It’s a, and this has just happened probably. I’m really honestly the last five to eight years. It’s gone to that and we see that happening in other states and we do want our chapter supporting those initiatives, putting dollars toward those and you know, from an organizational standpoint, our mission isn’t for kids to shoot trap and skeet it, but we absolutely believe that that path, if we can give them outdoor pulling the trigger that there’ll be a natural extension and a path forward for them to maybe be interested in hunting and then continuing that path to be a conservationist, to be a, a leader in hopefully our organizations and you know, they’re, the next group was going to deliver those acres. Mark:               00:20:10 You know, one of the things I talk about a lot of times with getting new people into hunting is if you’re outdoors already, um, you’re paddling, you’re camping, you’re hiking, you’re Berdine, etc. Um, you’re, you’re observing wildlife. When yoU start to hunt, you become a participant in that, in that ecosystem. And it’s, and it’s hard to describe that, I think to somebody who hasn’t done it, but I love hearing the stories and watching the reactions that people, once they get it and they become part of it, and they realize the richness of that experience. And I think the, the aspect, like you said with these, these trap leagues, these highschool trap leagues, you’ve got this skill now where you’re shooting at the clays, take it now to that richer experience of going out and being in these beautiful places and being part of that ecosystem and a participant in it. And, uh, you get a great meal out of it to. Howard:             00:21:11 Absolutely. Absolutely. And then it’s a, it’s, um, it’s, it’s almost a leopold quote. And I’m not going to try to even say that, but you know, the, the, you know, the, the intent of, you know, in order to love something, right, you have to essentially immerse yourself in a, do I have to smell it and touch it and feel it in order to appreciate it. And you know, if you think about that landscape that’s out there, um, it’s not just to look at it is to experience. No, we can stay in the library if we wanna look at pictures of the rocky mountains or look at that stream or look at that beautiful pictures of the lake. If you want to have an experience, you’ve got to get on that water. You’ve got to get the line wet. You have to, you know, recognize the tug on that line, right? That little bit of adrenaline that hits you. That’s magic. Yeah. And the same thing with a flushing, a upland bird, whether it’s a gross or a pheasant or a quail, a, it’s magic. And you can be an off of, you knoW, this bird that you just harvested and, and recognize the beauty of it. And then appreciate, um, you know, this, this meal that you’re having and recognize that you, a part of that cycle and that it is sustainable and that it is such a natural part and you’ll want to go back. Mark:               00:22:41 I think there’s an argument, a credible argument, whether it’s right or wrong, I don’t know, but that the future of conservation and protecting wild places is, is dependent upon and robust hunting community. I think it, it, it just the appreciation you get for the outdoors and the desire to protect these places that where the animals live and grow and thrive is, is so core to the hunting community. Um, that’s, that’s one of the things I’m passionate about because I feel like there’s so many things in society these days that are insulating us from that connection. And that is dangerous I think. Because then the, the valuation of those places I think diminishes the more insulated and, and, and distant we get from it. And when you go out and you hunt, you are part of it. And you understand the importance of all those aspects of the water, of the brooding areas of, of all of these different things. Howard:             00:23:49 Absolutely. And so, you know, you’re back to Leopold saying, you know, if, if you think groceries come from the store and if you think water comes out of your tap, and if you think heat comes out of your furnace and don’t recognize where those things really came from, then you cannot have an appreciation for that. so you do need to immerse yourself. You do need to be in that, that space where those things are created and uh, and, and utilized. It’s, uh, you know, uh, the, and then, you know, to the heart of the north american model of hunting the hunting community and the shooting community fund, 80 percent of conservation United States through self-imposed license fees, through the excise taxes that they pay on only a gun’s bullets, shells, arrows, and bows. Um, those Are the only things that generate this, these millions of dollars of excise tax that goes back to the states to deliver conservation at the department of natural resources level. Howard:             00:24:51 Um, and then with, uh, you know, hopefully those ngos out there that are helping match those dollars. So that’s where those, that’s the money for conservation comes and if that stops, um, we are going to be a loss for a hunting heritage that we would never get back. Yeah. So why do you think hunters are such staunch conservation is going back to you just referencing the excise tax, pittman robertson in the thirties, dingle johnson with fishing community in the fifties. Um, you know, all, all of these things that were sometimes proactively done I guess excise tax to, to address these issues, but it was because of the problems that had resulted from market hunting and things like that. Yes. But what, why do you think it is? It is so, so core to the, to the dna, excuse me, to the dna of, of a hunter more so than, than maybe some other groups. Howard:             00:25:49 So I think, I think it is your, your back, if you’re in that environment, if you’re in the woods, if you’re on that lake, if you’re on that stream, you’re a part of the cycle. You recognize there is a cycle of birth and death and you’re a part of that and that it can go away without your help. I mean, we have, you know, for all intensive purposes, kind of screwed up the planet pretty well and now we’re into management. Uh, we can’t just leave it alone and walk away and assume everything’s gonna be fine. Uh, there needs to be management. Uh, can we, I think the hunters recognize their role in that cycle as well as salmon, recognize their cycle in order to get upstream and spawn and, and then die and they’d be a part of that, a biosystem, you know, as they break down and become food for other, you know, other fish and other resources. Howard:             00:26:46 So it’s, it’s natural. I think you live it, you breathe it and you understand that and it, it may not be really obvious a conscious part of you, but I, but I think it exists and I think it’s a real. Yeah, I, I agree. So you, you, you talk about where we’re at in the. If we look at the long range of, of us as a species, we’re at this point of where we’ve populated this planet so much, we got to manage it. It’s not separate anymore. Um, and, and I think we’ve done a lot of good things within the us. You talk about the north amerIcan model of conservation. We talk about the self imposed taxes, the, the, the, the bills like the farm belt which comes up, which, which pheasants forever and quail forever is, is an integral part of making sure that includes conservation in it. Mark:               00:27:41 Um, what are, what are the challenges we have today in this current environment with making sure we are managing it well and we are focused on the right thing so that we don’t, as you said, screwed up some more. Howard:             00:27:54 So I think, you know, where the greatest challenges, especially for the specifically for the hunting community, is that the work that conservation is do need to be recognized as relevant to the broader population. So if you think about that though, the work that, you know, pheasants forever and quail forever would do or, or, or ducks unlimited or turkeys or any of the other wildlife organizations, uh, for example, if we’re putting habitat on the ground and we’re keeping soil where it should be, we’re actually building healthier soils and we’re keeping, you know, that moisture on that field or our preventing a chemicals from running off into streams. Howard:             00:28:38 And so at the end of the day, we’re protecting water, right? If those buffer systems are in place, natural buffer systems, we’re protecting that runoff. That means as much to someone in downtown Minneapolis or St. Paul or St. Louis or Chicago as it does to the people in those outlying communities of rural America. I’m protecting water is relevant in this conservation community. Does that every single day. Uh, those 1.7 million acres that we put in are protecting modern. They are keeping our soils and they are allowing places for pollinators to exist. And you know, something as simple as a monarch butterfly. And I think, you know, every third grader has gone through that classroom where we opened up a, you know, a, a pod and took out that little larva and you know, watch that metamorphosis into a butterfly and then recognize of what’s, you know, what does that butterfly need and it is relevant and the fact that you live in downtown minneapolis, you should care that there’s enough milkweed out there because that’s the only place that a monarch butterflies a feed and where they nest and where they lay their eggs. Howard:             00:30:02 And if that goes away, you will not have butterflies and that’s relevant and you don’t have to hunt to appreciate that. But you should recognize that the people that are putting their resources and time and energy and dollars into the ground to do recognize that. And you should appreciate that. Mark:               00:30:23 Do enough people, our elected officials in Washington…I’m sure you’re out there quite often, um, have a real appreciation for what the hunting community does relative to conservation? Because that’s one of the things I get concerned about is there just isn’t enough connection to, to understanding what that whole hunting conservation ethic is all about. Howard:             00:30:47 Um…Not enough, not enough. And so, you know, as, as America has transitioned from a rural agricultural country, you know, in the late 18 hundreds and early 19 hundreds into an urban culture right now. Uh, so if you just look at how your house of representatives are assigned, right? It’s based on population basis and the tighter population and more concentrated, you know, in a, in an urban center of Minneapolis or St Paul. Again, Chicago have typically, and I’m making a huge generalization, I’m making a generalization, not a huge generalization. Um, you know, they have a constituency that they represent that does not include or typically concern wildlife conservation. Um, and, and I’ll say water and soil and, and inner necessarily where their food comes from and what it takes to grow that food, those farmers out on that landscape who are protecting our lands, who are feeding a nation, who are clothing, a nation, fueling a nation in some levels. Um, you know, what’s, what’s critically important there. And that’s not their issue. And if you look at the farm bill itself, you know, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a huge concentration of all of the issues, including downtown, uh, uh, urban cities, which is welfare food for school lunches, and that’s by far the largest part of that bill. Howard:             00:32:26 The conservation title is a very small amount of dollars relative to the entire farm bill. So you need those votes. And so it’s a little bit magic because you want those votes of those bourbon representatives to carry those conservation title for rural America as well. Now, I would argue that there’s some incredibly smart and passionate people in Washington dc who recognize absolutely what this takes to feed a country, what, uh, what it means to have a, uh, an economic viable agricultural community, which is critically important and then as well as. But we need to be smart about what we grow and how we grow it. Um, so, and they exist and we’ve been successful over the last three decades that we’ve had a farm bill. But it’s a battle. It’s a battle every single day. There’s not enough money to do all the things that all the representatives in congress and the senate wants to do a on this landscape. Howard:             00:33:31 So we’re out there fighting every single day, uh, to, to, for, for our battle and what we believe in. So we know relative to the farm bill as you described and we were talking about earlier, it’s such a broad. It everybody thinks, oh, it’s just About farmers. no, no, no. It’s a very broad bIll. Um, and so maybe you could talk a little bit about crp and just explain for the listeners who may or may not know what that component of farm bill is in, why it’s important. Sure. So there’s a, the farm bill is a title to have that bill, uh, is the conservation title and a con, the biggest piece of that conservation title, or at least meaningful to us as the conservation reserve program. And that program’s designed to, uh, pay farmers a rental rate for ground that is probably never should’ve been farmed to begin with. Howard:             00:34:32 Um, because it’s maybe highly erodible, it’s poor soil types and you know, the benefit that the american people would receive for that farmer taking it, let’s say, out of corn production and putting a grass cover on there with forbes, uh, that would again, prevent soil from washing away, uh, keep chemicals from Washington to water. Um, give us, while I’ve benefits of a forage for honey bees and monarchs and pheasants, quail, dear. Uh, and there’s a cap they put on that every farm bill and the farm bill happens essentially every five years. And so this past farm bill, the 2014 farm bill, uh, put in play a 24 million acre cap on acres that were eligible to go into the program and the program is fairly, uh, there’s, you know, like 50 different practices that you could qualify for a, but you have to bit it the farmer, the farmer has to fit into it. Yes. And then the department of agriculture and it’s a divisions which is farm service agency and natural resource conservation service to the most part a look at those programs and either accept or reject those bids. Uh, and then they’re typically either, you know, 10, 15 or 30 year contracts and so there’s a huge benefit to the public and again, I don’t think the broad public recognizes the benefits and really the pricelessness of, uh, what they’re receiving for those dollars. Mark:               00:36:13 So in the 2014 farm bill is capped at 24 million acres. Um, what was the cap 10, 15 years ago? Howard:             00:36:21 Yeah, I think our high was 39.6 million. So, you know, we’re in this budget war every single and then the iteration after the 39 million was 36 million, you know 32 and then down to 24. And the 24 cap happened, all the stars I would save kind of lined up against, uh, the conservation title in that corn, you know, in that window of time when from a, maybe a historical $2 a bushel ran up to eight dollars and there was no motivation for a land owner who’s trying to feed their family and send their kids to college to, you know, leave it in the conservation reserve program that would maybe be paying them. Let’s say $150 an acre when they could get an $8 a bushel, they were making, you know, $300 an acre, but we also sent the signal that said plow everything, everything. Mark:               00:37:19 And so that everybody, you know, can sort of get a visual of what this is. That would be a farmer than having these either fringe areas along fence lines, ditches…um marginal lands that have, like you said, they’ve got a grade, it’s going to erode and slash or it’s just not ideal farming. They would just let that go to grass and natural and sometimes planted a planting the those beneficial grasses, getting the forbes in, et cetera. And so when prices go up, there’s a cap, (a) farmer can’t get access to the program. They put in a bid, they don’t win it because for any number of different reasons, they’re going to plow that under and they’re going to have corn or soybean generally speaking from fence line to fence line and out in the ditches and everywhere they can. Right? Because, like you said, they’re trying to, trying to, you know, send the kid to college. Howard:             00:38:11 Yes, absolutely. So, you know, so our challenge at pheasants forever and quail forever as to kind of find that balance, you know, our goal would be a or a belief, strong belief would be that there’s room for conservation on every farm and at the end of the day, you know, farm the best, you know, and then let’s buffer the rest. Let’s, uh, let’s make use of the best use of our lands are black soils, uh, and then the stuff that isn’t as a viable, you know, let’s protect that and let’s build soils there. And, and, and, you know, these decisions aren’t forever. These are voluntary programs. And uh, you know, we believe farmers can find that space in those spots for wildlife, uh, for pollinators, for monarchs, a protect water, you know, and that’s obviously an issue to you. We shouldn’t be farming right up to the edge of that crick no more than you should be farming up to that white line in the middle of the road. Um, there’s, you know, good farmland. And, and then we just need to give those land owners have the right tools to do that in the economic viability to do that. Howard:             00:39:18 They shouldn’t do it at their own cost or their own loss. Um, and they, uh, all of us should recognize the benefits, uh, when they put crp and yes, they’re compensated, but they’re compensated, you know, at least theoretically at a local rental rate that’s fair and equitable for both the public and the landowner themselves. Was your organization supportive of the Minnesota governor, a buffer law that is put in place and, and, and, um, savvy the highly charged in some respects the implementation of it and there’ve been challenges around it. But is that something your organization supports? Yeah, we believe the concept of buffers on waterways. Um, you know, the governor’s, uh, you know, it was a far reaching bill. Uh, there wasn’t, uh, we had little or no input into that, how it was implemented and put in play. But again, if you look at the goal of our organization would be to work with those land owners, find, uh, economic, uh, resources for them, uh, to make habit. Howard:             00:40:25 Makes sense for them, but we do, we do believe that there should be buffers on every waterway to protect that. And, and sometimes it’s not even as simple as, you know, this cookie cutter approach of, uh, you know, the buffer is the answer to every single one of those edges. I mean, you can create berms, you can create other mechanisms, uh, to have the same feature a or the same impact. Um, so, uh, I would probably have a, a, maybe a less of a cookie cutter approach that everything looks the same a and evaluate each, you know, what you’re trying to protect and what you’re trying to create a to be a, you know, a little bit more a thought. Thoughtful on how we do that. And again, um, you know, finding economic resources, uh, that crp program, uh, that the, that has a buffer mechanism in it. Howard:             00:41:20 And we, uh, we were able to kind of work with the natural resource conservation service farm service agency to encourage them because originally as soon as they made that law in Minnesota, it technically didn’t under the department of agriculture program anymore because it’s so, it wasn’t voluntary anymore. We were able to work with them and encourage them and through their attorneys they were able to draft wording that said no farmers can qualify for buffers and get paid through these federal programs, which was, I think, fair and equitable. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, um, how does, how does a person get into pheasant hunting or quail hunting and, um, and uh, did they, do they have to have a dog? Ideally. Speaker 3:          00:42:19 So, yeah, I mean, there are some, some basic tools and you know, I think that the, you know, that first best tool is a mentor. You don’t want how, uh, you know, the, uh, how you would go about hunting, you know, you need to be, you know, understand, uh, the safety of shooting shotguns and you need to be, um, you know, you shouldn’t be shooting some clays and getting comfortable with, with that device and, uh, and then just the, you know, the logic of how we’re going to actually go into the field and hunt and, uh, hopefully, you know, number one, flush a pheasant who, whose nature is not to fly, which means you need to typically put a dog on the ground a move that bird. And then, you know, the obviously the different breeds, you know, do you want to, are you more comfortable hunting with a flusher, which, you know, the, and then and slash, or a pointer and uh, then, uh, be ready. Howard:             00:43:14 And then, you know, one of the more difficult things is once, you know, if you’re lucky enough to shoot that bird, you know, and it drops in those grassy fields to refine that bird and retrieve it. And that dog, you know, is a magic again. And, and honestly, uh, you know, the, if you think about the classic pheasant hunter, it is all about the dog. Yeah. The hunt is, is, is magic. But most of the individuals that I know would not hunt in any way if it wasn’t for their dog. Yeah. I mean, that’s such a natural companion. They’re bred to do this. They, the joy that they, they, uh, show, uh, when they’re in the field, you know, is contagious. There is, it is so fun to watch a good dog work and so frustrating. Right? Howard:             00:44:10 So it is, it’s amazing. Yeah. So that’s one of the more common questions I get is, you know, what’s your favorite dog? Someone else’s. Exactly. I don’t have a dog right now. So it’s exactly, it’s, it’s nice to go out with somebody who’s got a good. That’s right. And it’s, it’s time and energy and you know, and again, the best dogs are also the best family docs and you know, the dog’s a field maybe three, four months at best in the year and the rest of the time it’s a, it’s one of the members of your family. And the joy that you know, dogs can bring to, to everyone, whether you’re, you’re a hunter or not is, is magic. So what’s your, uh, what’s your favorite? A gun for upland hunting. So I’ve, I’ve learned here I’m getting, getting smarter. Um, I would say originally I was, I wanted that 12 gauge and I wanted every single pellet and every single ounce of powder in it had to do with my mentality of not a very good shot. Howard:             00:45:10 So I need all the help I can get out there is he can end of late. Um, I’ve had people knowledgeable people. Let’s be clear, move me toward a smaller gauges. And to my surprise, I am a more effective with a 20 gauge a than a 12. So I, I, uh, on upland birds. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. two years ago I sold my 12 gauge that I had just for hunting upland and they, and they sold it to buy a 20 and I’d never had a 20. I’ve always said twelves. And I love this gun. I, I haven’t figured it out yet, I haven’t figured it out. So I’m not my, I’ve got to work on, on my accuracy, but I haven’t quite got there, but I love how it carries love, how it feels and it doesn’t kick me like a meal like that last 12 gauge did and it’s um, it’s, you know, for myself and I, and again, people who are knowledgeable, I’m much more knowledgeable than I am about the ballistics, uh, would even argue that and I’ve shot at least quail a with a 28 gauge and had more success with the 28 than I did with the 12 as well. Howard:             00:46:29 It’s swings better. It’s much quicker. Um, the ballistics, uh, my understanding on the 28 rm are almost a perfect. Is that really that perfect gauge now? And I have shot pheasants with the 28 with a pointer. Okay. Birds are a little bit closer, right? You’re not going to take those 50 yard shots, you know, that you can sometimes get away with a, with a lucky shot on a 12 gauge or something like that with a, you know, a, a good load. But um the 28 is kind of a magic gun. And so I haven’t gone from the 20 to 28 absolutely yet. But yeah, you know, in my perfect world I would, I would love to stay there. Mark:               00:47:10 My very first gun, my very first shotgun was a single shot. Steven’s 28 gauge with a hammer, no safety or anything…just this old gun. I still have it. And uh, and uh, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve often thought the same thing. I’d like to someday again go back to 20, it would be, would be fun. And I’ve heard they’re heard, like you said, I don’t know ballistics at all. I’m not knowledgeable in that space, but I’ve heard it’s that it is a, a much more perfect stage for whatever reason. The same thing, the people that have shared that with me, you know, know that world, you know, live in that space. Uh, and even, you know, and I’ve seen this, um, even on the trap and skeet range, uh, these individuals can grind up with a 28, what I’m, you know, can’t do 60 percent of the time with a 12. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so there’s, you know, there’s, there’s proof statements there and then there’s the simple eye hand coordination that, you know, I don’t necessarily have with the rest of the world. Mark:               00:48:13 I, I won’t even say what I shot a few weeks ago and I went out to arrange with a couple of friends. It was so embarrassing with that gun. Howard:             00:48:19 And then the reality of that is, you know, that’s like a playing golf. I mean, you go out there and you start, you have to think, now you have to think about where your, what your leader, what to your lead is. Um, how Am I going to, am I swinging, am I keeping it mounted? And when you’re hunting wild birds, it’s more instinctual that comes up naturally. You’re not thinking. And that’s why you’re more effective with flushing birds than you would ever be, I think on a trapper, a skeet range. yeah. Yeah. So do you, uh, if somebody asks you, do you have a, a hunting story that’s a favorite of yours? You know, when you were a kid, maybe when your, your, your boys were younger or something. Mark:               00:49:01 It could be funny, could be a… Howard:             00:49:03 So my actually my single favorite hunting story, um, would, would the first time I ever took my two boys hunting and so we are back home in duluth, Minnesota, fourth thanksgiving and the boys are six and four and we just had a beautiful snow and I’m going to take them hunting for the first time and recognize hunting means they, no one gets to carry a single shot for 10 empty. One gets to cArry a pellet gun empty and I’m just following along and we’re going grouse hunting in my old haunts. but we had a beautiful foot of fresh snow. It’s gorgeous. And taking a six and a four year old out into the woods is like bringing a brass band. I mean wildlife is leaving for miles and miles ahead of us, but we, you know, it’s this experience and we’re, you know, we see rabbit tracks and deer tracks and, and the boys get to, you know, shoot the 14 and blow up cat tails, which are, it’s really spectacular, right? Howard:             00:50:14 They just explode. And then you’ve just got gotta be smart enough to be upwind downwind of those. But uh, anyway, we’re having a wonderful day and we’re walking on pass. I’m trying to take it easy on these little legs and they’re, you know, they’re in there, they’re best snow gear so it’s, you know, think it’s still the classic if they fall over, you know, they got to be helped up and, but they stop at some point in this, you know, when are we going to start hunting? And I said, well, I kind of are. And they said, no, we got to go in the woods. And it’s like okay. So I figured out in my mind this path that kind of forked and like we could cut across this edge of woods not too far and cause I’m, I’m actually breaking trail for them. Make it a little bit easy for them to go in. Howard:             00:50:59 And now we get into kind of the middle of this clearing. And they noticed there’s this deer stand and it’s got a little bunch of little pines created, rounded for camouflage. And of course little boys and heights. So right away both boys said, you know, can we go up in the deer stand assurion sake both climb up there. This is, this is my best hunting story. Realize. So the six year old says, I have to go the bathroom, I need to go pee. And I said, well why don’t you come down? He goes, no, I want to go from up here. So it’s okay. Right? I mean literally you got the four year old he needs to go now to right. Oh, so this is happening and I’m telling you, it looks like the chicago fire, the back pressure on a four year old and a six year old is spectacular. Howard:             00:51:54 And anyway, so we finished the day, we stop and we have lunch somewhere and a burger and fries that it, it old haunt again. I don’t buy him a beer, but you know, I could have a and we just had this wonderful day and we’d get back home. And so they had linked with a 22. They had linked with 4:10, the pellet gun and they saw all kinds of tracks that deer tracks rabbit tracks and we get home to grandma and grandpa’s house where we’re staying and mom’s there. And so tell me about the hunt. You know, boys, what would you see? We paid off the top of a deer stand and really, you know, know, tell me about your hunting. Yeah, there’s this deer and that’s all they could. They, they know. I said guys, tell them about, you know, we linked with uh, you know, the 4:10 and you blew up cat tails, mom, this deer stand was way off the ground and we. Howard:             00:52:52 So the kind of, the moral of the story was they had the best time and they wanted to go back. And for me that was my single greatest achievement for them is, was to plant this seed of being in the outdoors and having a wonderful time and they wanted to go back and everything is taken it’s own course from them. They’ve never paid off the top of any other deer stands that I’m aware of. And they’ve continued to hunting. Yes. Mark:               00:53:22 I was just out with my son this last weekend. We were fishing and uh, we were walleye fishing up north and uh, you know, at one point my son just wanted to drive the boat and similarly, like you said, and I’ve learned that over time, you know, okay, if I want them to like fishing, I better let them just drive the boat now. And he had a great time and he, he said the other day, dad, we got to get back out fishing soon, you know, to him fishing was, you know, we, we did fish a fair amount too, but the driving the boat was a fun aspect of it and you need to just take those opportunities and let them have fun. We all find our joy in different elements of the outdoors that was as good as any. Right, right. So what excites you most about the future of hunting? Uh, and, and, and what’s going on today’s. Because there, there are a lot of challenges in conservation. There’s challenges with recruitment like you talked about. Um, but what are the bright spots that give you hope for, for the future of hunting? Howard:             00:54:16 So, you know, I’ll look within the organization that, you know, it gives me so much joy. So we’ve grown, uh, from, you know, for the first 25 years of the organization, we were about 50, 60 individuals employed here, did great things, chapters delivered 100 percent of the acres in the organization, you know, because of our model chapters raise money locally. They keep money locally. They delivered the mission for the first 25 years and they, they were delivering about two to 300,000 acres annually spectacular. And then, you know, the strategic questions that are presented us was, is that who we’re going to be, we became fairly static with our chapter growth and what chapters could generate, what they could put it in the ground. And we, um, one of the concepts that came up was thIs farm bill biologist concept where we would hire a, an individual they would with partners that’s critical here. Recognize that we can’t do this ourselves, that it takes a lots of partners to do great things and we can help partners deliver their mission while delivering ours. Um, so working with natural resource conservation service, farm service agency, department of natural resources, we could hire a position, farmville biologist that would sit down at the kitchen table with farmers and ranchers and help them build a conservation plan wherever they could on their farm. Right? And these are working lands, these are working farms are growing corn and soybeans, but they could find places to do conservation. Howard:             00:55:56 That was about 12 years ago. We have 380 people in our organization right now. 70 percent of them are millennials and they’re, there are farmville biologists. So these are young, a talented people. And I don’t care what you think about millennials, but my take is there’s whole for the planet. These are just incredibly passionate young individuals who, you know, at least came to this organization and, and work in this community and have a passion for what they’re doing and the outdoors and conservation. And, um, you know, they’re not here for a big, you know, if you’re working in the nonprofit, you’re not here for the check, but they bring so much energy that is, um, that gets me excited. I’ve, you know, I’ve just working on my 30th year here with this organization and I’m as excited now as I’ve ever been. Um, the number of partners that we’re working with every single day is incredible. Howard:             00:56:59 Um, we’re working better every single day with our other partners are ducks and turkeys and elk through the american wildlife conservation partners. We work very closely in Washington dc on legislative matters. We’re partnering and we’re matching our dollars together, working on programs, whether it’s in the prairie pothole region with the north american conservation act. Um, there’s just so many ways that we’re working together. The r three initiative, we’re all in, along with all those other organizations, all 50 department of natural resources at the state level are in. We’ve got the department of interior and the department of agriculture recognizing the importance of our three as well. So this is, this is coming together. We’re getting smarter. That, uh, again, we can’t work by ourselves, we have to work together if we’re going to really make change and it’s really happening on the landscape right now. Mark:               00:57:53 I, I agree. I think it is an exciting time and in part due to the challenges, but a lot of good things happening. I couldn’t agree more that the partnerships and everybody working together in the same direction is, is critical. So to that end, if somebody is interested in Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever, they’re, they’re, they’re, they’re not a member today, but they want to learn more, I guess, where is the organization today? Where would somebody be able to find a local chapter? Howard:             00:58:20 So the best thing to do is to actually go to our website. So pheasantsforever.org or ww, pheasantsforever.org or quail, forever.org. And you can go out there and you can, there’s a map will pop up of the United States and you can drill down into the state and the counties. Uh, so our pheasants forever chapters are county based. Um, and then for those that aren’t, you know, uh, you can go to a local chapter banquet if you’d like, and there’s 750 of those around the countries, both on the pheasant quail side. Howard:             00:58:51 Uh, but you can also, you know, banquets aren’t your thing. You can sure go online and join a and then, you know, participate, uh, you know, go out to our social media sites, uh, you know, share, if you want to learn how to hunt, if you want to find a mentor, if you want to talk about your dogs or what dogs are out there, if you want to get into this, what are the guns, what type of shotguns are your preferences? You know, there’s an incredible amount of experience out there. Uh, what loads to shoot. I mean there’s some endless. What are the best recipes for your wild game out there? There’s a, just an incredible amount of resources out there for you and you could sure joIn online as well. Howard Vincent Pheasants Forever Mark:               00:59:31 Well, you and your organization do a lot of phenomenal work and I want to thank you for that, for conservation. And, uh, and I want to thank you for taking time today to sit down and, and, and shared a lot of those stories with me. So… Howard:             00:59:46 Thank you Mark for thinking about us, and allowing us to come out here and talk a little bit. It’s been fun. Mark:               00:59:50 Absolutely. Mark:               00:59:52 Okay, everyone, I hope you enjoyed today’s conversation with Howard Vincent, the President and CEO of Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever. Don’t forget to check out the show notes page where you can get more information on this episode as well as a link to our film Awaken The Hunter Within where you can follow Becca, Pierce and Alex on their journey into the world of hunting where they had no background in this world and we follow their entire journey from asking questions to go into a gun range and learning how to shoot to getting out and doing small game. Finally, a white tailed deer hunt and then sharing in the feast after. And so, uh, go to the show notes page at www.modcarn.com/podcast5. That’s podcast and the number five. Outro:              01:00:50 Thanks for listening to the Modern Carnivore Podcast. You can continue the journey by going to modern.com. Thanks for Listening To Today’s Episode – Howard Vincent – CEO of Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever

1hr 1min

12 Oct 2018

Rank #9

Podcast cover

Mark Strand Talks Turkeys – Modern Carnivore Podcast (EP:012)

Turkey Hunting with Mark Strand In today’s podcast I sit down with Mark Strand. Mark has been an outdoor writer, photographer, and filmmaker since 1977. He has hunted wild turkeys for 41 years, traveling to hunt 17 states including Hawaii and several regions of Mexico. He has shot all 6 species and subspecies of wild turkeys. He often starts in late March in the South and works his way north, hunting turkeys through the end of May. A graduate of the University of Minnesota School of Journalism with a minor in Fisheries & Wildlife Science, he has written extensively for the National Wild Turkey Federation’s (NWTF) Turkey Call, Turkey & Turkey Hunting, Realtree’s Turkey Special, and many other publications. At one time or another, Strand has written for nearly every outdoor magazine, and authored or co-authored 14 books, including Paint the Next Sunrise: A Future for Hunting and Fishing, and the e-book Turkey Camp and other turkey hunting stories. Mark belongs to the “Ray Eye coaching tree,” giving much credit to the Ozark’s legend for influencing his hunting style. I hope you enjoy the conversation! Mark Strand is talking turkeys on the Modern Carnivore PodcastClick To Tweet Mark shares insights on hunting turkeys that he has learned over decades of hunting the bird. What’s more important in turkey hunting…woodsmanship or calling? What tactics should be considered when going to and from the blind and placing decoys? How can a new hunter learn to call in turkeys? If you’re interested in learning more about turkey hunting make sure you check out Learn To Hunt Turkeys on HuntingCamp.LIVE (by Modern Carnivore). During the spring turkey hunting season of 2020 we’re giving everyone FREE access to all the turkey hunting content. Mark Strand (L) and Mark Norquist (R) Editor’s Note: If you’re curious about starting your own hunting journey shoot an email to info@modcarn.com. This content is funded in part through a grant provided by the Minnesota DNR. Learn more about DNR efforts to recruit, retain and reactivate hunters on their website. 

1hr 16mins

14 Apr 2020

Rank #10