Cover image of The McMethod Email Marketing Podcast

The McMethod Email Marketing Podcast

Updated 1 day ago

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By John McIntyre, The Autoresponder Guy

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By John McIntyre, The Autoresponder Guy

iTunes Ratings

45 Ratings
Average Ratings

This podcast could be a paid product

By m_glass91 - Nov 14 2018
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You won't regret listening to this podcast. Every episode is jam packed with gold nuggets and actionable insights. Not only is it the most practical email marketing podcast out there (no fluff or incomplete tips), but it's also chock full of valuable wisdom about entrepreneurship and life in general. In fact, this morning I listened to John's special 100th episode and learned more about my own psychology, motivations and mental blocks than my semester-long psych course at university. That said, this podcast isn't for's for doers—action takers who want to constantly improve themselves and learn ways to earn more in less time.

Perfect podcast on Email marketing

By EmailNugget - Jul 31 2018
Read more
Take a bow, guys! This is the type of podcast I’ve been waiting to listen. The new era of email marketing is here.

iTunes Ratings

45 Ratings
Average Ratings

This podcast could be a paid product

By m_glass91 - Nov 14 2018
Read more
You won't regret listening to this podcast. Every episode is jam packed with gold nuggets and actionable insights. Not only is it the most practical email marketing podcast out there (no fluff or incomplete tips), but it's also chock full of valuable wisdom about entrepreneurship and life in general. In fact, this morning I listened to John's special 100th episode and learned more about my own psychology, motivations and mental blocks than my semester-long psych course at university. That said, this podcast isn't for's for doers—action takers who want to constantly improve themselves and learn ways to earn more in less time.

Perfect podcast on Email marketing

By EmailNugget - Jul 31 2018
Read more
Take a bow, guys! This is the type of podcast I’ve been waiting to listen. The new era of email marketing is here.
Cover image of The McMethod Email Marketing Podcast

The McMethod Email Marketing Podcast

Latest release on May 14, 2019

The Best Episodes Ranked Using User Listens

Updated by OwlTail 1 day ago

Rank #1: Episode #63 – John Logar on Creating Massive Wealth as a Consultant

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John’s held over 900 one-on-one coaching sessions.

He runs a highly successful digital marketing agency AND hosts the popular Business Unleashed Podcast…

…John Logar is basically an Email Marketing MacGyver.

His passion lies in coaching consultants.

Simply put, 

John is a powerful business coach.

He takes skilled people and helps them build 6-figure plus incomes.

But helps is an understatement.

You will NEVER be out of money as a consultant following his advice.


Let him teach you how to secure year-long retainer contracts of up to $12,000 per month (for just one client).

His 2-step method to success is simple:

First, realize that people want cash…   fast.

Generate that cashflow starting today

He tells you exactly how.

Second – a simple autoresponder.

John lays out his BULLETPROOF step by step email autoresponder sequence blueprint…

…simple, yet MASSIVELY effective.

If you’re ready to make some high-end deals,

Put this show on repeat… 

…or get ready to hit pause, A LOT.

This week’s Email Marketing Podcast is a consultant’s goldmine.

Listen in Now:

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • the number one thing that you need to be doing way more of (you already do it, just do it more)
  • how there is no such thing as being late in the game (follow this simple 2-step process to fly-by all the competition)
  • the 2 key ingredients to reigniting past connections through your small email sequence (coming up with a fantastic offer is the first one…)
  • John’s use of scarcity as a powerful motivator (combine it with time and quantity like only true email geniuses do)
  • the rapid cash flow technique that will increase your income naturally (start pulling in money today)
  • 3 simple questions that John used to raise his client $70,000 of revenue in one day
  • the answer to your consulting woes (don’t worry about your current lack of invoices or clients)
  • the trick to landing clients without even using email
  • the key to successfully reigniting existing client lists (guide them into a fast decision-making sales process)
  • an effective way to create income out of both 6 month old quotes and emails (each have their unique technique)
  • the awesome ability to follow-up based on behavior by tracking open-rates (this alone can increase sales up to 33%)


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

Raw transcript:

Download PDF transcript here.

John McIntyre: Hey you listener it’s John McIntyre the autoresponder guy and it’s time for episode 63, the big 63 of the McMethod Email Marking Podcast where you’ll discover tactics and strategies to increase your email profits by 25% to 100% in 90 days or less. We have spending more and advertise.

The basic idea here is that what you’re going to learn is ultimately how to make more money in your business, how to make more sales, how to get more leads, how to convert more of those leads in the customers all with a simple 200 word, 300 word email.

It’s not very difficult. I’ve had recent listeners email me telling them one of them had $85,000 in the bank in five months after using basically everything he’d applied he’d learned from the McMethod Email Marketing Podcast, so listen in, grab a pen, you’re going to want it.

Today, we’re talking to John Logar. John is a very interesting guy. I actually got started with consulting way back in the day when I was just getting into it. I actually went through a product that John had done with another consultant Kyle Tully 00:00:57].

I’ve done an interview with Kyle Tully before but I’ve never done one with John. John is very cool because he gets some just incredible results. This isn’t consulting for a grand here, a grand there, two grand here, five grand there, this is consulting say anywhere from … It depends on the numbers but it will be around $3,000 to $10,000 a month for say 12 months, right and you may pick up 8 to 12 clients of that.

You’re going to be doing … This is the sort of level that John is playing at and then he’s coaching others. He’s really a consultant for consultants and that means he’s helping people like me and people in that sort of situation when they want to do this business to bring on that many clients.

Let’s say if you follow that strategy. If you had 10 clients of five grand a month, you’re making 50 grand a month. We’re talking some big numbers to get excited. It’s an honor to finally have him on the show I’ll just say that. To get the show links for this episode of the McMethod Email Marketing Podcast, go to the

Before we’re going to this interview with Mr. John Logar, I just had one thing it is the McMasters Insight of the week. If you don’t know, McMasters is the private membership forum that I have in an exclusive little community that I’ve got for people who want to learn how to do email marketing the right way with products like the McIntyre Method, Stories that Sell, a few things like that.

Anyway, there’s a forum in there. One thing we get out to is we have discussions on how to write a copy and how to write emails and how to make more sales and a lot of stuff. The insight for this week is this, say things with less words. I was coaching someone yesterday and one of the main issues with their copy was not that it had a good flow to it, it had some good ideas, it was catchy, it was entertaining, I enjoyed reading it.

The problem and I see this a lot, the problem of the copy was that it was too wordy. It used more words when it could just use less. This is the equivalent of saying … here’s a bad example but this will kind of illustrate the point. Right next to me on this table, there was a bottle of hydrogen, one atom of hydrogen, two atoms of oxygen otherwise known as water.

I could say that to be kind of clever to be a bit cutie, but really my good copy is to basically say, “On this table there’s a bottle of water.” It’s a bit of a bad of example but the idea in here is that if you can say something with less words, then say it with less words. 

You want to eliminate all the redundancies. This doesn’t just apply to writing a novel or writing a newspaper article. This applies to writing headlines, to writing all your copy. There’s that rule where, how long should the sales will be? As long as it needs to be. As long as you can keep at entertaining it should go as on, and on, and on but to be entertaining you have to eliminate all the things that don’t really matter to the core point, to the core purpose, to the message that you are really trying to communicate.

The lesson for today or the insight of the week is that I want you to go look at your emails and look at your sales letter, and look at the copy that you are putting out there and see if you can eliminate a line here, or a line there. As you write more copy get rid of the redundancies. Make it more clear, more to the point, quicker, faster, more flowy. 

If you want to learn more about McMasters or if you want to sign up for the community and get some coaching with me or connect with the other members, or go through the training products in there go to the That’s all I have for the moment. I’m going to get back to my lunch over here. Some rice tomato, cheese, actually [inaudible 00:04:16] cheese, pretty delicious stuff and I’m going to live you to it to go and enjoy this interview with John Logar.

It’s John McIntyre here, the autoresponder guy. I’m here with John Logar. John is a business coach or a consultant. He helps other consultants not just make a little bit of money consulting but make a lot of money consulting doing really high end deals and  I actually first heard of John a couple of years ago when I was … before I was even the autoresponder guy. I’d done a bit of copy writing, I was just getting into the world of consulting and try to make some money so I could get by more than great by and great a lifestyle over here in Thailand, and one of the programs I went through was one that John had done with another consultant copy writing guy Carl Talley and that was a long time ago but I got a few ideas from that which ultimately led to the autoresponder guy, and the McMethod, and McMasters and all that stuff. 

John really knows his stuff and he’s been doing some very interesting stuff recently. One thing you did mention that really blew me away was that he’s done I think 900 one-on-one sessions or coaching clients, what kind of thing? Now only does he know how to make a lot of money. He knows how to teach other people how to do it well with consulting. We are going to get into some of the results he’s done recently and what the sort of the strategies behind what he did recently, how it made it work. We’ll get into that in a minute. First, John, how are you doing today man?

John:Hey John, it’s great to be here.

John McIntyre a:Good to have you on the show man.

John:It’s taken a while.

John McIntyre a:It has.

John:You are taking your time getting to me John.

John McIntyre a:I had a long list of people that … you are trying to keep track of who’s been on and who’s not. It’s getting that way.

John:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

John McIntyre a:All right, before we talk about these two different strategies today, give the listener a bit of a background on who is John Logar. I’ve done a little bit of it but you can probably give a better version. Who is John and what does he do?

John:I’m a consultant for consultants in one of my businesses. I do run my own digital marketing agency that works with specific clients in strategy especially online marketing strategies. With my consulting or mentoring programs, I run a program called Make Everyday a Pay Day and essentially that’s helping people who have some skills, who are looking to build a six-figure plus consulting business and looking to target, engage, and convert higher paying clients.

Whether that be corporate clients or looking to get clients putting in a retainer situation where they are picking up anywhere between $3,000 to $10,000 a month in retainer. Then I also just like you have a podcast called Business Unleashed as well.

John McIntyre a:Good old podcasting. Just to clarify there. You said was it $3,000 to $10,000 a month retainer and people are going to stick around for 12 months, and not only that the average [inaudible 00:06:49] you were saying does eight to 12 clients a month, which takes you from $40,000 to $60,000 per month in revenue and in [inaudible 00:06:54] it’s $300,000 a year, you are a one man shop, really great numbers especially for someone who’s just getting into consulting.

John:Absolutely and I think the biggest part of it is a lot of … it’s really funny. There’s a lot of people who have a lot of skills who’s been playing around in that marketing and direct response for many, many years, buying products, learning Facebook advertising and PPC and SEO. They’ve learned some cool stuff in their own journey of trying to make something happen or build businesses online. They’ve picked up a lot of skills. Those skills are translatable to very, very opportune … revenue opportunities within the offline world.

There’s a lot of guys out there who do offer local marketing or local consulting services but they tend to commoditize at the lower end. At the bigger end where businesses are larger but have larger sales volumes they don’t do anything when it comes to building sales funnels, direct response marketing. They tend to stick to traditional forms of marketing above the line, billboards, TV, radio advertising, trade shows.

They are missing out. The world is turning and changing. I think the playing field is rapidly changing in the market. There’s a whole bunch of people out there with great skills but they can translate into the offline world and these guys have no idea about the tech, the philosophy, the ideas, the strategies and really you can certainly charge great value for those types of services. The number job that’s been searched for at the moment out there is for digital marketing experts and whatever that means I don’t know.

Now there are digital marketing courses springing up and certifications and graduate degrees that are springing up that a lot of universities because from an [inaudible 00:08:32] marketing pool, from a marketing point of view, online is a very important component. It is getting much stronger. We are living and breathing off these great, little smart phones all over the world. In fact, in south east Asia the highest Internet connection rate is done through a smart phone not through a landline portal.

That’s where the opportunity is and I think people have got great skills but how do I package it up? How do I actually approach people to share those skills and help them engage and generate more revenue as well?

John McIntyre a:It sounds part of it too there’s a big mindset here where people get into it. “I know a little bit. I know you say I could do this John.” You tell me that I can get out and make all these ton of money but I just don’t know. A big part of this is there’s so much self-doubt. They know they’ve got skills. They know they could probably do it but are they going to go out there and do it? Probably not. They need to have that realization, it’s like yeah, if I go out there and do X, Y, Z. Step 1, 2 and 3 I’m going to be able to close a $5,000, a $10,000 a month client and do that every single month and do that for 12 months of the year.

John:Yeah and what you are doing … if you look at the translation of that it’s like you are building a membership client. Instead of getting $39.00 a month for a membership forum you’ve got a client paying you $3,000 to $6,000 to help them receive a result on a month to month basis. It’s like having a high-end membership program with one client.

John McIntyre a:What about the hours or the work that goes into this? Let’s say you are taking a $5,000 a month client to do some of their marketing, are you … is this going to be a pain in the ass? You are talking to these client every single day and working all day?

John:Based on the experience that I’ve had in my own business and certainly with the consults that I’m working with they probably spend about three to five hours a month with a client. It’s not a lot of time and at the same time they are leveraging their time through outsourcing through supplies to deliver the process. The goal is that they are working only a business in their business. They are not the technician. They are actually the project manager, the person who’s out there marketing and generating clients for their own business and then as a client comes in, they facilitate that project for that client by bringing in outsourced providers from all over the world if not in their local location and add their margins on top.

John McIntyre a:Do they have to be on location with these clients or can you do this from Skype? Could I do this from Thailand for example?

John:You could do this from anywhere in the world. All you need is a connection to the Internet of some form and Skype is an easy way to do this. In fact, if I look at all the consultants that I’ve been working with over the last year I would have to say that more than 70 percent of their clients are not in the city that they are located in.

John McIntyre a:Interesting.

John:They are doing it via email, Skype, LinkedIn, social networking. They’ll do it through forums. There’s a whole bunch of processes you can go and pick up corporate or business clients.

John McIntyre a:Okay because I was thinking for something like this for more high end stuff you’ve have to go in, you’ve have to give business cards out, meet someone in their office sit down and wine and dine them and all that crap.

John:No, it’s not uncommon. In fact, if I was looking at a guy who was one of my guys who is based out of Phoenix, Arizona half his … in fact he doesn’t have a single client in Phoenix and the average for him sits around the $8,000 to $10,000 month mark. It’s really funny. [Inaudible 00:11:36] and you there pick me up clients outside of your state. The Internet gives you that flexibility.

John McIntyre a:If you could to and then you are not worried about [inaudible 00:11:47] your client at the supermarket or at the bar at 3am or whatever it happens to be.

John:Why isn’t my campaign working? Why is my PPC on?

John McIntyre a:We are down with mark that out. That’s the benefits. That’s the goal that a lot of people are going for. This consulting lifestyle which is that you can make a ton of money and you don’t have to work. It’s not to make double what you make now. It’s not working twice as hard. It’s just working on the right things. Let’s talk about that, the right things. You mentioned two things, the two recent case studies and some of the lessons you learned from that. Let’s get into that. Let’s start with number one.

John:Number one is that people want cash and they cash fast. I’ve been sitting there thinking, how do you get cash in your business as quickly as possible? look at common sense and the guide here because a lot of people do not have common sense. There’s cause and effect. If you have a lot of office out there’s you’ve got a good chance that you are going to generate some revenue. The number one thing that a lot of people don’t do is they don’t offer things enough. I’ve heard you say things like on this podcast that I went from doing one email a month to a database to an email a day and as soon as you put that email a with an offer every single day your sales went through the roof.

John McIntyre a:That changed everything. It absolutely changed everything.

John:Yeah, the number one thing is that a lot of people don’t make offers but the other important thing is cash flow is key in your business. If you don’t have cash flow you are not in business essentially. The key to generating lots of cash flow is to get focused on what you need to do to generate it and just to give you a really simple perspective. It’s amazing how many businesses charge or send out invoices to clients and leave those invoices out there.

I was talking to an IT firm. They over 180 grand worth of invoices sitting out there to be paid as debits and I sat there and look, “Have you delivered the service for this product?” They said, “Yeah, we’ve delivered.” I said, “Why don’t you just get on the phone or get one of your team members on the phone and just ask those people to take care of that invoice today?” By the end of the week they’ve cloaked $100,000 worth of revenue business. Now they don’t give time payment. They ask for the payment up front and the payment is done on invoice and this way their cash flow has just gone through the roof now. 

Another simple strategy and this is probably one of my favorites was a printing firm that I sat down with. We were doing some consulting on strategy and they were sitting down saying, “Hey, we just need to get more quotes. We get more quotes we make more sale,” and I said, “Awesome. How many quotes do you get right now on an average per day?” He says, “We probably do 15 quotes a day.” I said, “Of those 15 quotes, how many do you close?” He said, “We probably do three to four of those quotes that we quote.”

In that we I’m sitting there saying, “What happens to the other 11 quotes? Where do they go?” He says, “[Inaudible 00:14:15] or we put them in the filing cabinet. They are all over here,” and I said, “Do you want to make some money and do you want to make it today? If you want to make a chunk of change, are you serious? Do you want to make it today?” “Yeah, we want to make some money today.” I said, “Let’s get you through sales guys. Let’s get you and get your partner and get some of your support team here who talk to the customers and we are going to pull out all the quotes for the last six months. Get all the filing files, get them on the table and put them in the center of the table.”

We are all sitting in the room and I said, “This is what’s going to happen. You’re going to ring, everyone of you are going to take a stack of these and you are going to call these clients and you’re going to ask them a simple series of questions. You did a quote a few months back from us on this particular project, did you go ahead with quote? Did you go ahead with that project? If you didn’t go ahead with the project, would you like to go ahead now? If that’s not an option for you, is there something else we can quote about? If you did go ahead with the project, who did you go with and why would you go with them?”

That was the series of questions that they were asking. By the end of the day $70,000 worth of revenue from quotes they’d written three to six months ago. Here’s the thing. They continued on in the month. That month they wrote $280,000 worth of business from quotes that they’d written in that sin month period. People wanted re-quotes, yes they went ahead with their projects. This was off old stuff. This is cash that they’ve picked up pretty much picked up straightaway business. Rapid cash flow is when you focus on generating income, naturally what’s going to happen? You are going to get some income from your business.

The thing is to develop focus on primary income generating strategies in your business. Make sure you get paid on time. Make sure you get paid in advanced. Make sure you are asking people for money to buy something from you. Make sure that you are consistently out there following up your opportunities and posing those opportunities. Those things make cash really fast in most businesses. That’s simple cash flow. That’s probably about a quarter of in a nutshell a quarter of an entire strategy but I say to people if you spent one hour a day in your business focusing on income generating activity, and that’s a primary activity where you physically engage someone or you offer something where somebody can buy something from you will never be out of money again in your business if that was what your focus was. One hour a day is going to make a huge difference.

John McIntyre a:I love this and I think the best part about it is that … I read recently. A podcast just went out with Perry Marshall recently on his book of E80/20 Sales and Marketing and part of the realization on that book for me is you can take some of the smallest activity, the smallest tasks on your to do list that will produce the biggest results and it’s actually encouraging you start to isolate these activities you can work less and make more money, make more impact, get more done and this is one of those things.

John:Absolutely, absolutely. The second part of that strategy a lot of people say, “I don’t have invoices. I don’t clients that I can just go and offer things to.” I’m scratching around for opportunity. They think by the time they build a relationship with somebody, go through a sales process, sit down with them, make an offer that’s going to take time and I sit there say, “Listen, every single person knows somebody who’s in business.” If you can’t buy coffee you know the guy who runs a coffee store. If you a family member, an associate, a colleague, a class mate, people you bump into, business cards you’ve collected along the way, everybody can roughly get a list of between 60 and 130 people. The average person has got about 130 people on their Facebook pages. Everybody has got a list right now who’s in business of people that are either are in business or people that know someone who is in business.

I say to those people, “Here’s what you want to do. Get that list together as quickly as possible, preferably if you can get an email list that will be even better of people, if you can get an email list you are going to go direct to these people, right?” Really I tell people how often have you told people that you know what you do and how you do what you do? How often have you educated those people around you so that if they know somebody that needs help around that area they can refer people to you. People refer people to people all the time.

I sat there and said, “This is the strategy. All you’ve got to do is say, “Hey mom, dad, brother, sister, friend, cousin, business owner. We’ve had a connection. I know you. This is what I do. This is how I help people. This is the type of results that I can get for people and this is what I’m doing.” If you or anybody you know needs some help in this area, do you mind just passing this on?” Pretty simple.

I have …

John McIntyre a:I’m getting excited.

John:I had a person who took this strategy to heart, took this and said, “Hey, I need some cash and I need it now.” He sat there and he wrote down an email list. I think he ended up with an email list of about 60 people that he could go out to and he made  very simple offer. He was in web development and his focus was to actually blow up sites and actually converted and engaged customers when they visited. He had a focus in conversion based websites that he could develop. He had a system strategy. It worked really well. He knew he could deliver really well but nobody really knew exactly what he did.

He told friends and family. He said, “Listen, this is what I’m going to do. He sent an email out, made an offer.” He said, “I’m just looking for a handful of people who will take advantage of this.” It was a good offer that made some profit for him. By the end of the day he had four people that said yes, I’ll take you up on the offer. Sixteen thousand dollars in a day from people who they knew, knew from the past purely by just putting something out there.

One thing that I find with people is all you’ve got to do is ask. Let people know, hey I need some help. Do you know anybody that needs help with this sort of thing and you’ll be surprised at how many people will come to you.

John McIntyre a:You are absolutely right. The reason I’m getting excited is I’ve got this autoresponder to me site. The daily emails that goes out and pushes people to the product and the how to write an autoresponder. What I haven’t done and I don’t have a list for because they never went through a web or they never physically signed up to an email list is a list of all the clients that we create an autorespond for. Basically, you are saying what we should do and I know this has worked because I’ve done small sample size, filed 10 people on this sometimes when I’m ringing some cash but I’ve never actually gone through every client I’ve ever worked with, grab their email address because it’s all via email and then sent them all saying, “We are doing autoresponse now, we can do a product launch and we can do this and that,” and I know that if I did this, this afternoon, maybe I’ll do it. There is going to be sales. This is the money straightaway like that. You are talking about putting a people via link in the email, right.

John:Yeah, absolutely, buy now, here it is, take advantage of it. Yeah. The other method that you are talking about, you talked about earlier on and this is a very simple strategy is something that every email marketer knows but the actual focus of this strategy is to run a very small sequence to either reignite existing clients, passed connections and contacts into a fast decision making sales process. The key here is to come up with a fantastic offer, the best offer that you can imagine or think up. It has to make money for you. You are not going to go out there and run a loss lead or run a low end campaign or a low end price point. You are looking for something that has good cost, has great value, maybe you’ve padded in with some added value items to build up the value of the actual opportunity but you’ve got to make some money out of it.

You’ve got to make some cash. There’s no point in doing something for nothing. You are going to do the work. You want to make some opportunity for revenue and for profit. You build the software. You create an awesome offer and you say, “Hey, I’ve [inaudible 00:21:13] that. Overall, you’ve made a mistake or we’ve got capacity. We’ve got room to help two or three people to take advantage of something very unique that we’ve put together. We are only offering this to a handful of people. You are one of the handful of people that are being offered this to. If you’d like to take advantage of it let us know straightaway. We can get this action. We’ve got some space to next two weeks, right.

Time sensitive, quantity sensitive. Scarcity is a powerful motivator. Good reason, great value so awesome offer. Remember these people you are sending to are people you already know or who are already existing clients. You don’t need to sell them on case studies and who you do things for and what great results you get for people. They already know who you are. They already know what results you get, right of your product or service.

It’s a relatively familiar list. Even past contacts, people you just bumped into. They know who you are but you’ve never done business with them. These are people you put into this campaign. First email, awesome offer. Second email, day two, right. Most companies or most businesses especially offline they only send out one offer and that’s it. They get limited results, right and so conversions are low, nothing ever happens. The second email is a very second email. The headline I just want to make sure you got this so you didn’t miss out, that’s it and then it reiterates the offer, the awesome value, the awesome thing. I’ve added what four or five of these available, just click here take advantage of now, let’s do it.

Third day, day three next email, hey we’d love to know what you thought about this unique offer. We’d love to know what your feedback on what you think about the value or what you thought about this. Again, reiterate the offer, time sensitive, time limited.

The last offer are you interested, would you like to ahead with this offer? Four emails, very simple sequence. First email of that offer. Second email, just make sure you are getting this offer. Third email we’d love to know what you thought about this awesome offer. Last email, are you interested in taking advantage of this?

Generally with time we will run these types of campaigns especially to offline clients and even in business when I’ve tested these campaigns invariably we always make the sale. Somebody in your list is going to buy something. Somebody is ready. Even if you sold one you still made a deal out of this because you are making a profit. 

In this campaign, this is where can I get really sexy with you John?

John McIntyre a:Go for it man. I love the sexy.

John:Here we go really sexy with this. Everybody who’s in the email marketing game knows in the autorespondense, in the reporting we can actually see the clicking activity or the open rate and not only that we can actually see how many times they open up an email, yeah. We can see those figures and results. Using [inaudible 00:23:47] we can actually see how many people open up an email. We found that when can actually see a person open up an email, open up an email more than once it shows that whatever they headline is, whatever the subject line is and the email has sparked an interest, enough of an interest for them to open an email twice.

Because most of these lists are not huge we say to the people, just give the person a call and say, “Hey, we notice that you’ve had a look at the offer, is there anything we can help you with,” or, “Is there something we can explain about what we are offering and why we are offering this?” That’s the kicker. The kicker is that they can follow up based on the behavior, people who have opened up the email two or three times. We’ve seen conversion rates in sales improve by up to 33 percent purely by picking up the phone and saying, “Hey, I noticed you had a look at that thing twice. What can we help you with or is anything we can help you with around that?

It’s really simple. Most people don’t pick up the phone but you’ve got a reason to do it. It’s a really simple thing to do. I’ve done this campaign. Probably the best result that I’ve had with this campaign is a list of 62 people generate $250,000 in the IT sector. This was to a knowledge manage company that was selling Intranet database knowledge management  systems. They got about 250 grand worth of work from a list of 62 people running this exact campaign in that format with the follow up call.

John McIntyre a:I like that. I like that. That dial up per subscriber value was insane right there.

John:It was awesome. The thing again and here’s can we get really sexy now?

John McIntyre a:Let’s do it. Let’s go John.

John:Let’s go really … let’s really low down and dirty on this one. This is where you get a little kinky. You run the campaign. The campaign is run [inaudible 00:25:23]. What you do now is you go back, pick a handful of that people at that list and say, “Hey, we run this thing. We got a few people. Took advantage of this thing. Just want to know if you saw it. Can we just walk you through what we would do there and what we are offering?” It’s amazing the people say, “I saw something not quite sure,” or, “Yes, saw that thing. We weren’t quite ready yet.” You say, “Look, I’ll tell you what because you’ve taken the time to answer the call and answer the questions, what if we made the offer to you? Would you like to go ahead?”

We’ve seen sales of campaign running three weeks later. I work with a wholesale IT company that sells hardware and logistics. We did that strategy on a campaign that had already been gone for three weeks. People had pretty much forgotten about the campaign. We devised an amazing strategy. We got the sales guys to just do that. “Hey, run this thing a few weeks ago, not sure if you remember it. It was a pretty good we had a lot of people take advantage but know that … just wanted to know was that something that was cool for you guys and what did you think about the deal? Here’s what the deal was.” They run read out the deal and said, “Hey, if you want to we, we can do it for you.” They picked up 17 sales. The average sale was 32 grand.

Offer back ending, remember the old follow up old quotes. This is following up all the emails. The email had gone. It was just going back picking a handful of people and just saying, “Hey, how are you doing? We’ve still got some stuff available if you’d love to take advantage of it. Just would love to know what you thought about that campaign.”

John McIntyre a:This reminds me the quote. The always be closing.

John:Absolutely, yeah it is. It is always be closing … old sales quote always be closing.

John McIntyre a:Always be closing. It’s just so simple. You just got to talk to more people and make more offers.

John:Absolutely, a lot of people forget in this game especially with direct response and with communication it’s important that we are so distracted, we are so disjointed with what we are being bombarded with. I’m walking into stores with my iPhone, looking at buying a pair of sneakers and I’m looking at the website of a store that’s diagonally 20 minutes way. Here I am. I’m focused, I’ve gotten in the store but I’m checking our prices or I’m checking out shoes on another store just down the road from where I’m standing.

We are so caught up, we are so bombarded that we forget that I love the concept or Google came up with this concept a little while ago called the zero moment of truth or ZMOT. You can even Google it. They’ve got videos on it but they were saying back in 2009 the average person would take five frames of reference before they made a purchasing decision. Five frames of reference was talking to a friend, checking out an ad, hopping on the Internet to check the website looking at the product online. They were five frames of reference a person would buy.

Today we are talking, five years later, people on average are looking for 18 points of reference before they make a purchasing decision and if I talk about that shoe example as a perfect example. 

I was looking for a comfortable pair of sneakers. We’ve got heaps of store around the world like Foot Locker or Hypedc and all these stores that sell sneakers. It’s quite a trendy thing to do. I was looking for something comfortable. I hop online, I do my research. I type in cool, comfy, casual sneakers. Search comes up I get regular stores. Foot Locker, Hypedc, Nordstrom and a few others in that search. I look, I go and have a look and see what sort of funky sneakers they’ve got. I’ve done the search. I know connect with five websites. I’ve hit five websites. There’s five, search is six. I don’t click on three different searches because I’m looking for more than just cool sneakers.

Search is six. I eventually sit down and say, hey, I go into a store. I walk into two different stores. I go to a Hypedc store, I go to a Foot Locker store. I’m sitting there, looking at their shops. I’m already up to nine frames of reference before I’ve even purchased a product. Then I try a product on. I take a photograph of the product on my foot with my iPhone and I SMS it to my wife and say, “Hey honey, what do you think of this?” And she SMSes back, “You look pretty good. Is it comfortable?” I said, “Yeah, great.”

There I’m asking for another frame of reference before I make the purchase not based on whether I liked it or not but does it look cool, what it looks like. Understand that if people looking for that many frames or references to make a purchasing decision, if you think you are going to go out there and do a one shot deal, and think that people are just going to fall over themselves and say, “Yes, I’m going to make that happen,” you are kidding yourself. You’ve got to be in your customers face on a consistent basis. 

You’ve got to be engaging them, nurturing them, hitting them from different angles, offline, online and if it’s big volume sales and big dollar sales them you need to be spending the time and building that relationship. We are learning from the Amazons and the eBay’s and the Ace Horses and these guys are doing amazing work online. They are almost literally saying, “Hey, I’m an online business but I want you to feel like we are offline.” They are building this amazing relationship by sending out offers.

If you go to their websites, all their websites are full of offers. The first thing you see, 20 percent off this, here get this deal, get into this VIP program you’ll get better deals if you join this thing. They are teaching us. They are showing us what is working and I think this is where businesses get stuck, they get caught up in all the bullshit in their business of not making money, they are struggling. They are not targeting the right clients. They don’t even know their customers well enough and they are seeing businesses that have only started three or four years ago absolutely killing it in their market.

We’ve got a great magazine in Australia, well not a magazine. It’s an online magazine now but the publishing world is being stricken by the online bug but BOW runs a list of the fasted growing companies every year, the top 100 fastest growing businesses. The average business in there they started five year ago. They are only very young. The most successful business in this particular group was a retailer, an offline retailer. You would think an online retailer would do better. This is an offline retailer. This offline retailer started the business in 2009. From 2009 to now 2014 they are generating a turnover of $63 million in revenue in five years.

Here’s the thing here, in the last 12 months they went from 30 million to 63. They doubled because of online marketing and because of online and also direct response offline as well with their customers. People in the retail industry who’ve been around for 20 years they heard him. All over a sudden, this nobody out of nowhere says, “Hey, I want to be a retailer to. I want to sell some great products. I want to create a great customer experience. I’m coming in here late,” and so most people just say, “Hey, you’ve been late because the bubbles just about to burst with online marketing online retail. Why are you opening up an offline store?” And all over a sudden they are killing it out there.

I think people don’t ask for enough, they don’t focus on what they want to generate and achieve in their business and they are not maximizing their opportunities.

John McIntyre a:I think too. Once you get  the hang of marketing, once you really get how marketing works and how it’s really quite simple with the making of the offers and all that stuff that you can go into any market. When you are good at it, as long as you assess the environment well enough you can go into anywhere and make money.

John:Yeah, absolutely. Know your customers. Find out they want, give it to them as much as you can, make it easy for them to buy.

John McIntyre a:It’s something to do with the whole entrepreneurial mindset here which is really that there’s no problem that can’t be solved. That’s really what makes a entrepreneur is that everyone else is saying, “No, you can’t do that. It’ll never work. There’s no way anyone is going to do that,” and then they just go and figure it out. When you go to do it and they do it.

John:Absolutely, give it a try and go for it. I think a lot of people do marketing back to front. They think about their product offering and their product and what it does rather than thinking about the person who is actually going to buy it and use it. It’s almost reverse marketing and I sit there and say, “Hey, don’t fall in love with the product. Fall in love with the customer that’s going to receive this product and benefit from the product.” If you can fall in love with those sorts of people then the communication, the engagement you are going create from that is going to serve you so much better than thinking about how can I get this stuff out.

John McIntyre a:I love that but I think that’s a good note to end on John. Before we go give though the listeners are wondering where can they get a little more about you or about the consulting, the mentoring stuff you do, any of that stuff.

John:They can go to There’s a blog there. They can get a lot of videos and information off of what’s strategies, and tactics and ideas, and lots of free training on there. I also run a podcast like you at with my partner, Chris Green in the UK and that’s a realistic and practical and tactical ideas, [inaudible 00:33:52] you can generate revenue from pretty much what we said today on your podcast.

John McIntyre a:Sounds good. I’ll let links to that at the [inaudible 00:33:58] and one thing you mentioned before we jumped on this call is the song, the [inaudible 00:34:03] song. If you are listening and you want to know what this song is you can go to the It’s on every single podcast post and you’ll be able to see that on there.

John thanks for coming on the show man.

John:Thanks John. I appreciate you having me on.

The post Episode #63 – John Logar on Creating Massive Wealth as a Consultant appeared first on McMethod.

Jun 24 2014



Rank #2: Episode #70 – Ryan Levesque on His Highly Profitable and Unique Survey Funnel Formula

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What do you get when you put a neuroscientist, a Wallstreet banker and a highly successful AIG sales professional all in one?

…Ryan Levesque.

This guy is a baller.

His first online business going from ZERO to $25K per month in its first 18 months was only the beginning.

Ryan’s built and sold multiple internet companies…

As well as coached over 45 clients –

…generating over 37 MILLION bucks for them in the process.

Ryan takes your basic survey and turns it around on it’s head –

…creating a distinct survey funnel strategy that when used,

Guarantees to SKYROCKET your conversion rates –

And your business revenues as well.

In this episode, Ryan talks funnels

He breaks down his GOLDEN unique funnel strategy into 7 easy to follow steps…

He’s used it to generate 2.8 million leads and 175 THOUSAND customers across 17 different markets.

In other words –

It WILL work for you.

Tune in to bask in the greatness that this surefire funnel strategy is.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • The trick to using Ryan’s bulletproof formula in any current or future business you will ever create (it’s easy and infinitely profitable)
  • How to convert catastrophic life-events into fuel for success (don’t let anything bring you down)
  • The hampering herd mentality that will hamper your conversion rates when following-up on completed surveys
  • The biggest mistake people make when creating and then offering surveys (learn a simple trick to avoid it)
  • A perfect funnel execution if you have multiple front-end products (guide people to their perfectly matched product)
  • How to best funnel people into your product VSL if you have only one product (hint… use marketing angles)
  • How to use neuroscience to take advantage of people’s subconscious cognitive biases (never worry about conversion rates again)
  • The ultimate custom merge field email strategy that creates extremely personalized autoresponder sequences (no one does this… don’t be generic like everyone else and you’ll have to thank Ryan later)
  • How to mirror Ryan’s distinct survey funnel strategy with ease
  • The micro-commitment survey method that trumps your basic squeeze page optin (builds action-taking momentum that will blow up your optin conversion rates)


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

Raw transcript:

Download PDF transcript here.

John:Hey, it’s John McIntyre here, the autoresponding guy, and it’s time for episode 70 – the big seven zero – of the McMethod e-mail marketing podcast where you get, every week, nitty-gritty techniques, tips, and strategies to make more money with e-mail marketing and sales funnels in your business.

This podcast is really just about the [outsides 00:00:16] of making money online, but I like to have a little cool catchy intro there, so I’m tweaking things and changing things as we go.  Today, I’ll be talking to Ryan Leveque – or Levesque – I think it’s Leveque – about survey funnels.  

Ryan is very well known for his survey funnel formula, which is basically a way of building sales funnels that uses surveys, and today, we’re going to talk about exactly what the survey funnel formula is, why it works so much better than ordinary typical funnels, and [inaudible 00:00:44] the survey, what to do with the survey data, how to use the survey data to boost your conversions throughout the autoresponder.

What I love about Ryan’s strategy is that it’s very simple, it’s very straightforward.  It sounds complex, which is why a lot of people aren’t doing it, but because it’s easy – it’s quite straightforward, I think – that you can go and set it up and you can execute on it, so there’s some great information in this podcast.  You might want to pen and paper for this one or some sort of note-taking device.

To get the show notes for this episode of the e-mail marketing podcast, go to seven zero 70, okay?

This week’s McMaster’s inside of the week – if you don’t know, McMaster’s is my private training community where you can learn more about e-mail marketing, sales funnels, how to write pages that convert, how to tell stories, all that sort of stuff, that’s weekly – sorry, monthly – webinars, and expert interviews and a bunch of stuff inside there.  

Now one thing I’ve been talking about on some of the latest training webinars – we call them the McMaster’s Roundtable – is upsells.  I’ve been running paid traffic on Facebook – well, sorry, I’ve been running a campaign on Facebook – for the last month or two, and what’s blown me away so far is that the upsells that I have in that funnel – which someone buys the first product and then there’s a series of upsells after that – have been making up two thirds of the revenue on the campaign, and so now it’s now a profitable campaign.

I’ve never been into upsells.  It’s never really been my thing.  I’ve heard about it, but I just thought, oh, I’ll wait for that, I don’t need to do that stuff.  But now when I look at the sales funnel, the whole reason that sales funnel and the paid traffic campaign is making money is because of those upsells, and that’s why I’ve been talking about it inside McMaster’s on the training webinars, because it’s one of the easiest ways for you to make more money in your business is to increase the amount of money that each person spends with you, and the easiest way to do that is to create relevant products – which is a lot easier than it sounds – but create products and sell them as upsells.

If you have a book that you’re selling for a hundred bucks, create another product to sell them straight after they make that purchase for another hundred dollars.  You could be in services.  Maybe someone wants to pay you $2000 to write a sales letter and you say, “Well, how about we do the sales letter for 2000 and then I optimize and then split test it for another thousand?”  Figure out ways to do upsell.  This is, by far, the easiest way to increase the amount of money you’re already making in your business.

It’s hard to get traffic, it’s hard to boost conversions.  Upsells are such a simple, simple hack, but most people aren’t going to do it.  Most people won’t do it because it makes them feel uncomfortable, right?  So you gain an instant advantage if you can get over that discomfort and just do what makes – I think, what makes very good business sense, which is just increasing or improving the economics of your business.

I’ve got one review this week, another five-star.  This one comes in from Dylan Sigurd from the United States.  He says, “Five stars, insider scoop on e-mail marketing and more.  McIntyre is basically the e-mail expert in this podcast and he sheds more light on very profitable e-mail marketing methods.  Thanks for giving us a lot of value, John.”

Thank you for the review, Dylan Sigurd.  I hope I said your name right there.  I don’t know which one’s the first name.  Anyway, but thanks for the review.  If you want to leave a review for the show, you can go to iTunes, search for McMethod, search for the e-mail marketing podcast, jump in there, leave me a review, it totally makes my day, blows me away, and it really gives me a hit of motivation to keep doing these podcast interviews.  So yeah.

Let’s get into this interview, this little podcast with Mr. Ryan Leveque.  It’s John McIntyre here, the autoresponding guy.  I’m here with Ryan Leveque.  Ryan is a marketing expert, a business coach, and I’ll give a quick little intro and then I’ll hand it over to him, but he went zero to $25,000 a month in 18 months with his first online business.  

He’s launched, built, and sold multiple Internet companies.  He’s coached over 45 clients through the process, and he’s helped generate $37 million in revenue for these clients during that time, so he’s done some cool stuff, and I thought we’d get on today to talk about the specific funnel that uses … Sort of like a different way of doing a sales funnel that’s very intriguing, and I don’t know too much about myself because I’ve never used it, but I’ve heard good things from him and from a lot of other people who do it.  Andre Chaperon, I think, has used this approach before, so we’ll get into that.

Ryan, how are you doing?

Ryan:I’m doing great, and I’m pumped, really excited to be here, man.

John:Good to have you on the show, man.  Good to … You don’t have a green juice or green smoothie right now, do you?

Ryan:I don’t.  I just have water.  It’s funny you bring that up, because before the call we were just chatting about our obsession over green smoothies, green juice, salads, and just living healthy.  You got to fuel the body to fuel the mind.

John:But do it fast as well.  That’s part of the point with the smoothies, is you can … You don’t want to sit down for an hour and eat a meal.  You don’t have time for that.

Ryan:Because I have too many e-mails to write.  No, you’re absolutely right.  Originally I did it out of necessity.  I don’t know if I mentioned this, but two years ago, I was diagnosed with type I diabetes, and it was a complete shock to me, because I’m in my 30s right now.  Type I diabetes is juvenile diabetes, so it’s usually kids that are diagnosed, but the reason why the way I found out is I applied for life insurance and I was rejected, and I’m an otherwise … 

If you look at me, you would say, “Oh, he’s a healthy guy.”  I’m not overweight.  I’m in pretty good shape.  But I was, again, rejected for life insurance, and I went to the doctor and said, “Here are my labs.  Do you think we should get some labs done to corroborate the results and see if they’re real or not?”  We did that, and I got a phone call from my doctor about an hour later and he said, “You need to go to the emergency room now.  You’re in what’s called DKA, diabetic ketoacidosis, and you could literally slip into a coma any day.”

My wife was freaking out, I was freaking out.  We went to the emergency room.  I spent four days in the ICU, the intensive care unit.  I was pumped with 15 pounds of fluids.  I had lost a bunch of weight leading up to this, and I had all sorts of other symptoms, but I just never really attributed it to a disease.  I was just working really hard and I thought I lost all this weight because I wasn’t eating, and I wasn’t eating because I was working really hard, and I was weak and tired because I was spending so much time working, and we just had a baby, so I wasn’t getting a lot of sleep.

Anyways, long story short, the reason why I bring all that up is that’s been a huge motivator for me and a real kind of eye opener that, listen, we’re not here forever.  I was the last person to think that something like that was going to happen to me.  

Bringing it back to the green smoothie, one of the reasons why I eat the way I eat now, which is three green smoothies a day, one green juice in the morning, two salads, and high-quality protein at night, like an organic grass-fed steak or wild salmon or something like that – the reason why I eat so healthy now is basically out of necessity.  I do it because I want to limit the amount of medications I need to take and just really be healthy.  I’ve got a son and another one on the way, and so I think all of us have our own motivations for what drives us to do well in business and be successful.

For me, it’s to provide for my family knowing that if I take care of myself, I’ll be around for a long time, but if I don’t take care of myself, a type I diabetic’s life expectancy in a place like Africa is really … It’s pretty sad.  After diagnosis, it’s like 15 or 17 years, so you have to take care of yourself, and we were just joking, “Feel the body, feel the mind,” and it all comes back to what you put into your body, so for me that’s what drives me, and what’s interesting is after I was diagnosed, we had literally the best year ever in our business and I’ve been doing this full-time since 2008, and this was, I guess, 2013?  Yeah, 2013, the next full year after diagnosis, and now in 2014, we’re five months into the year, and I’m already 150% over entire last year.

In other words, what we did in 2013, I’m already 150% better, and ahead of the game there.  It just goes to show you that if something like that happens to you, if it’s bad or whatever, you can use it as motivation to drive you to take things … Step up your game and take things to the next level, so anyways.  I know that was a real long introduction.  You weren’t probably planning on talking about it, but I think it’s interesting to hear when I’m listening to interviews with people to understand what motivates them, what drives them, and a little bit of background before we dive into the nuts and bolts of the business side of things.

John:Okay.  Cool.  Thanks for sharing that.  One thing I’m curious about – this is to stay on this story just for a little bit longer – is to think, well, you have this huge motivation that’s come from diabetes and we’re not around forever.  How do you convert that?  How does that propel you in business, say, instead of saying, “Well, I’m not going to work as much anymore, I’m going to spend more time with my family,” or whatever.  I don’t know how.  How do you frame that up?

Ryan:Yeah, it’s a really good question.  I remember when I was – I think, 25 – I had this feeling … I was working in a corporate job, I was living in Asia, I was working for an insurance company, AIG, I had a really great job, high-paying job.  I think I was making like $278,000 a year, and I was running a team of 24 people.  I was opening up sales offices all around the country, and I had another one of these moments, and I said, I don’t want to spend the rest my life doing this, and I just had this feeling that if I don’t do something now, if I don’t just … 

I had this flicker of entrepreneurialism in my gut that was about to be extinguished.  It was just a little bit of a flicker there, and I just had this feeling that if I didn’t do something now, that flame was going to go out, and it was going to go out forever, so I made the bold decision to quit my job, move in with my wife who, at the time, was getting her PhD in a 400-square foot apartment, and started my first Internet company, and that’s when I went from zero to 25,000 in 18 months, and I had a similar …

The reason why I had that feeling was – whatever, this number feeling, like, I’m going to be turning 30 in a couple years – just felt like it was so close.  It was right there, and it felt like … In my early 20s, I felt like I had all the time in the world, but just seeing that that number was there, like if I didn’t do it now, I was never going to do it, and I don’t want to look back at my life, 75, 85 years old, and saying, I wonder what if.  

This time around, when I got sick, it was a little bit of that.  It was a little bit, well, I might not be around forever, and so I want to earn as much money as possible for my family so that if something did happen to me that I would leave them in a really great position.  I’m not in a position where I’m three months away from dying.  I don’t want to create that misconception, but that was the thought going through my head, especially when I was sick.  I think anyone who has kids … You don’t have kids, right, John?  You’re single?


Ryan:Yeah.  I think when you have kids, it’s sort of like this daddy gene kicks in where you’re like, I got to step things up.  I want my boys to look up to me and say, “Wow, Dad did amazing things,” and really proud for me to be their father on the one hand, and on the other hand, I’m working really hard now so that I don’t have to work hard forever.  Whether this happens or not, I’m in a position where I could conceivably retire in a few years, as crazy as that sounds, in my 30s, and so there’s that that appeals to me as well.  That if I just really burn the midnight oil for another year or two, I could legitimately just say, done.  

Not that we’d be living crazy millionaire lifestyle where we’re riding Rolls-Royces and living on private yachts, but we could live a comfortable lifestyle and I wouldn’t have any work obligation, so I’ve thought about things like that.  If I just do the sprint for a couple more years and then, secondarily, if not, well then I can take things down a notch and the pressure is off and I can work really, really short hours.  

At the same time too, I’ve engineered my schedules that I work in very set, specific times and I take time off to be with the family and, just like you, I could work anywhere, so we take vacations all the time and just bring my laptop and everything like that.  

I think the way things are set up right now is pretty good, and I know we’ve spent a little bit more time talking about the lifestyle side of things, but we can bring it back to business, and the thing that’s allowed me to do that is, like you, I’ve invested a tremendous amount of time in becoming a really skilled copywriter and then taking that skill and bringing it one step further and focus on becoming a funnel specialist, building end-to-end online funnels, and my contribution to the marketing world is a very specific type of funnel that I have … I’m the only one that does this funnel in this specific way and it’s something I call my survey funnel.

This is something that I’ve used to generate 2.8 million leads, 175,000 customers across 17 different markets in the last 23 months alone, and I’ve just since added two more markets that I’m going into, and I basically work with and partner with large seven, eight, and nine-figure businesses.  I build their entire funnels on a fee plus royalty basis, and I get paid handsomely to do it.  We can talk about some of the mechanics of that funnel and maybe how some people on the call can use elements of that in their business and take what’s working so well for me and my business and maybe apply parts of it in their world.

John:Sure, let’s dig in.  Let’s talk about … I’m curious about what this survey funnel looks like.  I’ve seen … My idea from what it sounds like and what I’ve seen out there before is when someone opts in, use a survey to segment them.  But now that you mention it, it actually sounds like it’s probably a bit more involved than just simply giving someone a survey and segmenting them when they sign up.  Let’s start off with a broad view.  What is it, and what does it look like, and then we can dive into the nitty-gritty.

Ryan:Sure, absolutely.  Typically, in a lead capture funnel, we all know the squeeze page, right?  You go to a squeeze page, it’s opt in for X, Y, Z, free report or free video or whatever.  What this does is it turns it on its head, and I’ll talk very high level, and then I’ll talk a little bit about the psychology behind why it works.  

One of the things I didn’t bring up is that in a prior life – what feels like a prior life – before getting into business, before getting into marketing, I actually studied and taught neuroscience at the Ivy League level at Brown University, and I was actually intending on going into academia, going into grad school, and becoming a neuroscientist.  My best friend in college is a neurologist at the Mayo Clinic.  We went through all of our classes together.  He just took it all the way.

But I decided that wasn’t for me.  I kind of meandered for a while.  I worked on Wall Street for the investment bank Goldman Sachs and then, like I said, lived in China for five years working for AIG and then got into our world.  The reason why I bring that up is because one of the things that makes this approach unique is – and in my marketing – is I tend to really focus on the neuroscience and the psychology of what’s going on behind the scenes, and so a lot of times there’s these effects that are going on that aren’t apparent.  Taking advantage of cognitive biases that people don’t realize that they have, and doing it in a way that drives up conversions tremendously.

30,000 foot view: the way that this funnel works is, you send traffic from any number of sources, whether it’s PPC, SEO, video traffic, Facebook, whatever.  Traffic goes to a landing page.  On the landing page is a short video.  The short video has a button below it.  The video sells people on why they should take the survey.  Now, it’s not positioned as a survey.  That’s the biggest mistake that people make.  “Take the survey, and I’ll send you to the right sales page,” or whatever.  It’s not positioned as a survey, and we’ll get back to that in just a moment, but I just want to take the 30,000 foot view.

After they click on that button to take the survey, the survey typically culminates in an opt-in form: name, e-mail.  From there, the survey does a couple different things.  Number one, it funnels people into one of several different, typically video, sales letters.  So that’s number one.  Now, it depends on how they answer the survey, what responses that they give, and they’re sent to either … If there’s just one product that’s being sold, different marketing angles for that one product, or if it’s a situation where you have dozens of products on the shelf, so to speak, it’ll funnel people into the best match product based on how they answer the series of survey questions.

In addition to that, from there, all the responses that people take in the survey are incorporated into the e-mail follow-ups.  Not only are people sent to potentially different autoresponder sequences based on the results of the survey, the autoresponders are also customized.  We all know the merge field, you know, “Dear First Name,” but what we do is we create merge fields for every single question that people answer.  

A very basic one, a question in the survey might be, “Are you a man or a woman?”  The reason why I ask is because men and women suffer from different … Take weight loss.  Different weight loss challenges.  We would then capture that data in a merge field and then in the e-mail follow-ups, the person who says that they’re a man, the e-mails are customized, and the e-mail might say something like this: “You know what’s interesting about guys who are looking to lose weight and guys specifically, is that they tend to have a very unique challenge.”  

That same e-mail could be read, “You know what’s interesting about women who are looking to lose weight and women specifically, is that women are looking to solve a very unique challenge.”  So the effect – and that’s just a very basic example, you can imagine taking that to the nth degree across a number of different questions – but the net effect is that when people go through that AR sequence, they say, “Holy crap, this is squarely, exactly for me.”

Nobody does this.  Nobody takes this level of customization and tailoring to the same extremes that we do, and it’s one of the reasons why it’s so effective.  It’s so refreshing for people to have a customized response rather than a generic, one-size-fits-all answer marketing approach, which is what 99% of businesses do.  

There are some other things that we do with one-click upsell paths and re-marketing and buyer e-mail sequences, but at a 30,000-foot view level, that is what the survey final is, in a nutshell.

John:Okay.  Is it something that … I think I could put this together.  You could do this for, say, AWeber, fairly straightforward.  It would be simple to do with something like AWeber, but you’d have to be good at, say, the tech side of things, knowing how to set up … [URL variables 00:19:20] and filling those hidden fields with the data.  But is this something that, say, an average person who’s probably not so techy but they’ve got some e-mail software like AWeber or Infusionsoft or this kind of thing …

It sounds cool.  It sounds awesome.  But how hard is it for someone to actually set up and then actually get the e-mails written so they make sense no matter what someone answers in the survey?

Ryan:Right.  That’s a good question.  Again, the main thing that I do is I implement this for very large companies.  The whole thing.  In that process, my partner and I found that there was no software in the market that did exactly what we needed it to do, so we developed a piece of software that’s called  We just recently made it available to the public.  That’s the software that we use to create that survey that pops up that I describe that captures all that merge field data and sends people into the best match video sales letter page and funnels them into one of several autoresponder sequences or a single autoresponder sequence that uses merge fields to give the appearance of customization.

That software ties into whatever e-mail service provider that you use, so it ties into AWeber, it ties into Infusionsoft, Constant Contact, [Entreport 00:20:38], whatever you use, the software integrates with that.  That’s the software that allows you to create those surveys that I’ve described, capture the merge data, send that data to the appropriate hidden fields in AWeber, and then have the ability to use the merge fields.  Technically, it’s actually not that difficult to do if you have access and use that software, and that software, by the way, it’s a SASS program.  What that means is, it’s not a WordPress plug-in.  It’s platform-agnostic so it doesn’t really matter what technology you use to build your website, whether it’s WordPress or Joomla! or just straight HTML.  

Literally, you just do all the setup work in the dashboard and then you just plug a line of JavaScript in your website where you want the survey to pop up and, like I said, the path that we use is, we use just a video to sell people on why they should take the survey.  Typically there’s a button below the video.  When they click on the button, it pops up the survey and a light box and you go question by question by question and you fill it out.

Technically, it’s not that difficult.  As far as thinking through all the possible permutations on how you might integrate the merge fields into your e-mail, well, that’s something that you can go as far or as not involved as you’d like, so at the bare minimum, you might want to make one very basic segmentation, like men and women.  If it’s appropriate.  If you are a business consultant, you might want to find out if someone is either a business owner or maybe another business consultant.  Do you own the business or do you help other businesses grow their revenue?  With that, you might use that to customize things.

You do need to think it through.  You need to think through the different permutations.  One very basic example I’ll give you is, if you’re going to be using the gender thing when you, for example, set things up – and you don’t have to use our software, you could have something custom coded if you wanted, but our software just makes it easy – but in the software, for example, you would want to set up a gender singular merge field and a gender plural, so that we could say, “As a man, you probably ask yourself, why is it that I struggle with weight?  And the reason why is because men” – gender plural – “tend to have different metabolism and women, especially as they get older,” right?  You just flip that around.  You want to think through certain things like that, so gender singular and gender plural is a good example.

The other thing that we haven’t talked about that I think is important when you do this is the psychology of why this works.  Why does his work better than just a squeeze page?  There are a couple things going on.  The first is the power of what I call micro-commitments.  Micro-commitments are basically asking your prospect to take infinitesimally small steps to move them towards the action that you want them to take, and it’s akin to when you’re in a relationship with someone.  

Going straight from new visitor, landing page, to squeeze page is like … If it’s cold traffic, unendorsed traffic, where people don’t know who you are, it’s akin to meeting someone for the first time and maybe reaching in for a hug.  Some people might be cool with it, but it’s a little bit too much, right?

Instead, the micro-commitment thing, instead of going straight from, “Hey, sign it, give me your name and e-mail, and I’ll give you this thing,” which, by the way, when people see that, you’re going to get a lot of fake e-mail addresses, bogus e-mail addresses, or someone’s third tier e-mail address, some Yahoo e-mail address or Hotmail e-mail address that they barely track, just to get the thing that they came there for.  

But when you instead start with, “Before we get started, tell me a little bit about yourself.  Are you a man or a woman?  The reason why I ask is because I want to point you in touch with the best possible resource for you.”  Man, woman.  It’s an easy, low-threshold question to answer, so it doesn’t take a lot of brain power.  Man, woman is … Unless you’re being a smartass, you know the answer, right, so there’s basically zero thought that goes into it.  They don’t have to think about the response, and it builds what I call action-taking momentum.

They click on that one little thing and it’s that first, dipping that toe in the pool, and it’s much easier to get things moving from there than that very high-threshold decision which engages that flight or fight response where people are saying, “Do I really want to opt in?” or, “Maybe I’m just going to get the hell out of here.”  This is the baby step that leads up to it.  The net result is that, A, your opt-in rate is going to be significantly higher, and B, you’re gathering all this extremely useful intelligence along the way and, if nothing else, just using the gender one as an example, think about what you can do from a segmentation standpoint when you’re doing broadcast offers.

Perfect example.  If you operate in a health market and you just know your prospect’s gender coming in.  For men, you could do broadcast.  You could create a custom segment for just men and only broadcast to them an erectile dysfunction product or a low-T product, low testosterone.  Then for women, conversely, you could offer a perimenopause product or if you get a gender and age, you could focus on the women of childbearing age and do some sort of pregnancy or mom type products, and I’m just giving you very basic examples, but you can start to see how, really, the possibilities are endless when you start going down this path.

John:It’s funny, because there’s that philosophy with squeeze pages or with any sort of conversion process that the easier you make it for someone to sign up or join, the more conversions you’re going to get.  But in a sense, what you’re proposing, it does make it easier in the sense of micro-commitments, but it’s almost like putting a barrier.  Instead of just … Some people would be like, “No, the best way to get someone to opt in is just give them the opt-in straightaway.”  If you give them the survey, they’re going to be like, “Well, I don’t want to do the survey,” and every time you add another step in that journey to the opt-in, you’re going to lose people.  But it sounds like that’s not actually the case.

Ryan:It’s not the case for two reasons.  Number one is even if your opt-in rate is a little bit lower doing this – which, to be perfectly honest, and some markets, it is, it will be – I will take 10 opt-ins where I know age, gender, their hot buttons, the biggest objections they have, what their single biggest goal is in this particular space over 100 opt-ins where all I have is the e-mail address, because I can market so much more effectively knowing just a little bit of information about the prospect, so those 10 people, I might get five sales.  I might have a 50% conversion rate because I’m able to tie them into the absolute best match offer, but if I only have their e-mail address, it’s a finger in the wind exercise, and it’s also key if you ever want to scale.

If you’re in an niche market and you’re only going after, for example, a keyword – I’m in Austin, Texas right now, so if you’re a plumber and you advertise on the keyword “how to fix a leaky toilet Austin Texas” or with a geo-targeting Austin, Texas, you can have a very targeted squeeze page.  “Discover how to fix a leaky toilet in just three simple steps.  Enter your name and e-mail here.”  That’s great.  

But what if you advertise on the keyword “weight loss”?  Weight loss represents a million things under the sun.  I discovered this in one of my own businesses.  I have a six-figure business in the information product space in addition to the client work that I do and the business is and it’s a series of courses that teach people how to improve their memory.  It leverages my background in neuroscience.  

But anyways, long story short, I was advertising on the keyword “improve memory” and I couldn’t make it work.  Could not make it work.  Just my lead cost, my cost per sale was so high, it just … The economics didn’t work.  When I started digging into the data, I started realizing the reason why is because that keyword represented a massive spectrum of people, everyone from the college-age student who is looking for memory tips to study for the test all the way through the 65-year-old man who’s concerned about mental decline and everything in between.

It’s no wonder that you can’t make a keyword like that work when you have such a spectrum of people searching on that keyword.  What I realized is that if I just asked a few simple questions about who the person was and then tailored the sales message and sent them in the right direction, all of a sudden that traffic worked, and those were the highest-volume keywords in my market, improve memory, how to improve memory, memory improvement, which were too vague to know what was the rationale behind the search query.

If you want to scale – and again, I’m in environments where I’m generating, in some markets, up to 6000 leads a day – you don’t generate 6000 leads a day on some niche keyword.  To do that, you are doing media buys, banner advertising, a lot of display advertising, and the search keyword advertising, the PPC advertising that you’re doing, the keywords phase, is on high-volume keywords.  

To answer your question, is it adding more friction?  Even if it is, I’d rather have that data so I can market more effectively.  That’s the first thing.  

The second thing is that – you brought up the point of, is it slowing down the process, putting friction in the sales process by putting these additional steps?  If you just say, “Hey, take my survey,” it will.  But what you need to do, the way I do it, is I find a way to present and position the survey as an opportunity for self discovery.  What I mean by that is – I never talk about specific client examples whenever I do interviews like this because, for competitive reasons, I don’t want to give the psychology and rationale behind it, but I’ll try to make one up right now.

It would be, instead of saying, “Hey, take the survey,” it would be … Pick a market.  If it’s a market that I’m not in, we’ll come up with an example right on the fly.  Just pick any market that …

John:Mobile phones.

Ryan:Okay, mobile phones.  Most of the markets that I’m – not all of them –are information-based markets where –

John:[inaudible 00:30:40] how to crack a mobile phone?  How to jailbreak it?

Ryan:Perfect.  It’s not the best example, but we can do this.  It would be … Okay, this would be a little bit different angle than I normally take in most of the markets, but you could do something like this.  You could say, “Discover the number one reason why people who try to jailbreak their phone basically screw up their phone for life.”  Then you’d have a short video that basically sells people on the idea.

“Hey, listen.  Do you realize that there are three common mistakes that people tend to make when they jailbreak their phone, and all three of these things will render your phone useless if you make them. But the problem is, because there are so many mobile phones out there – literally, there are thousands of models and hundreds of brands across the world that if you try to search for information online, it’s almost impossible to find your specific make, model, and year.  But the good news is, we’ve put together a simple little database that covers every mobile phone under the sun, and if you just take a moment now to click on the button below, tell us what’s your mobile phone brand, the year you purchased it, and the generation, we can send you directly to the specific jailbreak instructions for your particular phone as well as how to avoid those three simple mistakes that I meant.  

“And by the way, these three mistakes are different – slightly – depending on the phone that you’re trying to jailbreak.  The only catch is, we haven’t decided how much longer we’re going to make this service available for free online, so go ahead and do this right now while you’re on this page and you’re still thinking about it.  Click on the button below, enter your information, and I’ll see you on the other side.”

It’s not the best example, but you can see the way I worded it right there.  It’s not a survey, right?  It’s about getting some sort of end results and it just makes sense, and along the way, you could find out, shit, what their phone is, you could find out … You wouldn’t even need to really ask the question, but you could ask it, what their geolocation is if that was relevant to you as a marketer.  It would be a stretch to ask for gender, but you could ask for certain things like, “What’s the reason why you’re trying to jailbreak your phone?” and the rationale, you would say, the reason why is because there’s some subtle differences depending on what your goals are and we want to make sure that we put you in touch with the best possible guide to do this, and that’s just off the top of our head right now, just coming up with something.

I’m sure we could come up with a better angle, but the point is, it’s all about making it … We came up with this right now, on the fly, and if you’re trying to jailbreak your phone … If I’m jailbreaking my phone, I’m sold.  I don’t want to wade through forums, and I’ve never tried to jailbreak my phone, but I don’t want to wade through forums and hundreds of pages of information.  I just want to find my phone right now, get the thing done, and move on with my life, so I feel like it’s a pretty compelling offer.  That’s just one example, but you can hopefully see when you do this sort of approach why it’s potentially so effective.

John:Absolutely.  I’m really seeing it.  Absolutely.  We’re right on time here, Ryan, but before we go, I know you mentioned the software a couple times, so let’s talk about … If people want to learn more about you or about the software, where should they go?

Ryan:A couple different places.  If you just want the software itself, you can go to  That’s a site directly to the software.  I will say at the time of this interview, this is my own internal software that I use in my company for our high-level implementations.  We literally within the last couple months just released it to the general public and we had doubts if we wanted to do that because it’s kind of like our secret sauce, so if you go to that page, you’re not going to find a real fancy, slick sales message or sales letter or anything like that.  You may just see a simple form to opt in to find out about the software itself, so that’s the first thing.

If you’re interested in learning the nuts and bolts and details behind how to create one of these funnels from end-to-end, I do periodically teach this at a site called  It’s a paid program in which I take people through my six-week process of building one of these funnels from end-to-end.  

The reason why I put together this program, to be perfectly honest, was I never intended on making it for sale to the public, but when I expanded my team earlier this year, I brought on a couple different team members and I wanted them to understand the process so they could take off a lot of the work that was on my desk, so what I did is I actually created a real-live funnel from beginning to end and I had them go through the whole process with me, take notes so they could then replicate it, and then we put in our internal company website and periodically I let people in and go through that training as well.  That’s if you want to learn how to do the whole thing.  Both of those are paid software, paid programs.

If people would just like to get some of my free stuff, I put out a daily marketing e-mail where I talk about some of the tests that I do and the markets that I’m in and the insights that I’ve picked up and it’s fun, it’s like this interview, it’s not super formal or anything like that.  It’s just a cool little thing, and if you want to sign up for that, you can go to and then you’ll see a nice little form on the right hand side to sign up for that free daily marketing tip.  Those are probably the three best ways to learn more about what I do and to get some good stuff.

John:Cool.  I have links to those other sites on the show notes at  Ryan, thanks for coming on.

Ryan:This was awesome, man.  Really, really happy to do this, and look forward to chatting again sometime soon, my friend.

The post Episode #70 – Ryan Levesque on His Highly Profitable and Unique Survey Funnel Formula appeared first on McMethod.

Aug 12 2014



Rank #3: Episode #60 – Rob Hanly on How to Become a Marketing Consultant Using a Simple 3-Step Formula

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The Reverend Rob Hanly is here back to back weeks to grace us with his presence…

This week he explains how to become a marketing consultant.

But instead of preaching what not to do, he tells us what to do.

So kiss your four-hour workweek dreams GOODBYE.

And say hello to the…

Four-HUNDRED-Hour Workweek.

No need to fear.

Rev’s got you covered.

He reveals in full, a 3-step formula ANYONE can use to become a masterful marketing consultant:

First, you MUST have a skillset that can solve problems… anything.

Once that’s established, you need to show it off to the right people.

Step numero dos:

Get in front of people that can use your skillset as a solution to their problems and provide them VALUE

This will separate you from the pack (think back to last week’s rule of reciprocity).

And Step 3: quite possibly the most important of them all…

…commit to taking action EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

To quote the rev:

“You don’t grow muscle by sitting in the gym on the floor taking selfies.”

You gotta have a skill.
You gotta provide value.
You gotta COMMIT.

If you manage to follow these 3 simple steps without fail… there is no doubt you’re well on your way to becoming a consulting-BAD-ASS.

And to help you follow through, Rob and I talk about a secret ingredient that makes all this effort possible.

Without it, you will most certainly FAIL.

Find out what this secret “thing” is…

…add it to the 3-step formula,

and POOF

You’ve got yourself a magical combo to world domination.

Listen-in and get your marketing consulting game going NOW.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • how I reach my goals using a move fast – break sh*t philosphy (blast past your goals and pick up new ones)
  • how Rob’s chisel and hammer stacked up against my rocket launcher when comparing success techniques.
  • the hole that Rob plugged which catapulted his success (find your “hole” to fill now)
  • where to spend your time and focus when starting a marketing consultancy (know where you stand and have the upper hand
  • the one question you should ask yourself to get in the right frame of mind (start your consultancy here)
  • how polar opposite consulting methods work equally as effective (and how they end up within a percent of eachother)
  • how to wing-it like a pro and be ready for anything (do this and you’ll always be ready)
  • how to find a problem you can solve, and figure out ways to solve it.
  • a caveat that all consultants suffer (what it is and how to avoid it)
  • how providing value helps to grow your client list (choose and run with the right one for you)


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

Raw transcript:

Download PDF transcript here.

 John:Hey everybody it’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder Guy and it’s time for Episode 60: of The McMethod Email Marketing Podcast, where you will discover how to make more money with email marketing and really just all things marketing.  

How to make better marketing, so you can make better sales, and you get better results in your business, so you can go and live a great lifestyle, whether it’s  your kids or you go careening around the world or relaxing on the beach, in a hammock and drinking a coconut.  

Now, I may live in Thailand, but there’s no beach in Chaing Mai, I’m not really do much of that hammock sitting, I do drink a lot of coconuts, I’m not doing much of that hammock stuff on the beach, unfortunately. 

That will be in a couple of weeks and we’ll head down to the beach for a bit of a break, anyway today, I’ll be talking to Rob Hanly about how to get started with consulting. This is an interesting topic, okay, because this has been kind of my background, this is Rob’s background, as well. 

Rob was on the Podcast last week, and if you don’t know, he was also the reverend … he was the reverend on a podcast, I think it was Episode 20 to 30ish, I can’t remember exactly what the number was, but he was on there as well and now he coming out. He is a consultant, quite a high paid consultant too. He’s got some great strategies to share on this. 

But, why this is interesting is that, I get a lot of emails from people who are listening to this show and they want to be consultants or they’re in the process of becoming one or they’ve quit their jobs and they are a consultant but they’re not getting very good results yet.

They want to know how to get clients, they want to know how to make it work so they can find a hammock on a beach and drink coconuts, or just live in New York or London or Sidney or just have a kick ass life. 

That’s what we’re going to talk about today. It’s really how to do … like Rob’s story and my story, how we’re similar but very different and how getting started with consulting and really kicking ass, isn’t that complicated. You don’t need a huge amount of stuff to get it done. 

You don’t need to be an expert; you don’t need tons of training or anything. You really just need the right mind set, the right set of beliefs and a couple of new, couple tricks of the trade and that’s really it, okay. There’s not a magic way to do it, very simple and we’re going to talk about it, step by step process today! 

To get us started, the best episode of the Email Marketing podcast go to, that’s

Now, todays, McMasters Insider of the week is, “I find, I spend so much time researching my copywriting tasks, it’s probably my biggest bottleneck.” This came from one of the members of McMasters, which is a paid community, which I’ll tell you a bit about in a second. 

Talk about this Insider though, and basically what he is saying, he spends so much time researching his prospects, probably going into Amazon reviews, maybe speaking to them on the phone. interviewing them, looking at surveys, doing the forms, basically so much time trying to figure out who he is trying to write copy for, that’s where he spends most of his time, is his biggest bottle neck. 

Here’s why this is an Insider, because he’s saying it like it’s a bad thing, but this is the way it should be. It’s the research, right, that creates the empathy which is really what creates great copy. Great copy doesn’t come from writing all the time; also you need to be able to write. 

If you have to come up with a great sales letter, that great sales letter is not going to be great because you spent 90% of your time writing it, but it’s going to be great because you spent over 50% of your time, researching it, okay. 

Now I remember there’s a quote from Rammit Sethi, in one of Derrick Halpern’s podcasts, I think it was, he said, “He spent 50% to 60% of his time on his research.” He’s doing this and this guy’s got a multi-million dollar business. He sells a lot of information products; he has a blog, a whole bunch of stuff. 

He’s at,; he’s a guy worth following for email marketing, as well as, all the other marketing stuff but he swears by this researching stuff. The insider that I want you to understand is that, great copy comes from in-depth research. 

Go grab a coffee, go to a coffee shop, spend two, three, four hours each day for a few days, maybe longer, however long you feel you need and you really want to overload your brain with as much information as you can about who the prospect is, what they care about, what their dreams are, what their goals and you want to actually get to the point where you feel overloaded with information, okay.

Then start to map out maybe, like a graphs or sales letter outlet, start to brain storm some ideas how you can connect to this prospect, who  you now understand, better than they understand himself.  Start to brainstorm, how are you going to connect that with your product that you’re trying to sell. 

You’re really want your brain to feel frustrated so it’s gets that point of overload. We talked about this in the podcast with Stephen Cutler, which is where you overload your brain like this.  This is part of getting into flow and then alright, then you back off. Go and get a massage, take a day or two off, two or three days off, whatever. 

What’s going to happen is your brain your brain is going to be taking over, your subconscious brain is going to be working on in and then a couple of days go back, you don’t even think of …  and you consciously try not to think about it.  

Then you go, come back to work a couple of days later and you sit down and you start writing and you find that nine times out of ten, you know exactly what to write, it’s all going to come out very quickly and especially if you can get rid of that editing voice, that critical part of your brain, that tells you ‘that’s no good.’ Get rid of that, and just write. 

All that research you did, overloading of your brain, that’s really going to drive this fantastic sells letter, okay. That’s the Inside. 

Spend more time researching and less time writing. Now reviews, if you want to leave a review for the show, you’ll help me spread the word, we’ll make another case study out of it, I can get more people on the podcast, anything to make my day. Go to iTunes, search for, the McMethod Email Marketing podcast and leave me a review. Tell me what you think about the show. 

Got one listener question now, how important is continuing an overriding theme or story throughout an S.O.S? S.O.S. stands for Soap Opera Secrets, this refers to Andre Chaperon’s strategy in autoresponder matters, where you write a story in your email sequence, but instead of a story being in one email, the story carries over five, ten how many emails, it never really ends. 

The idea is by telling a story that doesn’t ever end, in a given email. It’s a bit like a TV series where once you watch one or two episodes you have to watch the next one because at the end of every episode, they start to give you a little hint of about what’s coming next week. 

That triggers a part of the brain that is it’s kind of like, well you need to have completion, like it is with dating. You want to resolve something, you want to have completion. This is to do with stories, like TV shows, you have to have completion of that TV show that’s why you keep watching those episodes, the same thing with those emails. 

Something, I’m not a huge fan of this strategy with emails mainly because it’s triggering people to open the emails instead of buy your stuff. If you spend too much time   and getting hooked on the free information and the receiving and not buying, then you end up with a list of people that who really don’t like to buy stuff. Which, it’s not good. 

Suppose you were going to do it, you’re going to try it anyway, you wanted to test it and you’re going to do a Soap Opera Sequence, right, a story over several emails and how important it is it continuing an overriding theme or story?   

I would say it’s not that important. I think you could mix it up, I think it’s good when you can mix it up, you can start telling a story and then say in the next email you’ll hear about,  how Joe is going to save the life of Dave, something like that, whatever. Then in the next email, you just completely drop that. Maybe you come back to Dave in a few emails, come back to that story in a few emails. Is there an overwriting theme, maybe, but maybe not? 

I just read a book by Charles Bukowski, yeah that his’ name, “Post Office”, this guy gets raving reviews from people about his writings, but I read his book. There’s almost no overriding theme, I don’t know what it’s about. It’s a good book, its fun to read and I did want to read it to the end, but it’s not like a normal book. It’s just a story that never really … like it’s interesting, that’s the interesting part, but it never really gets anywhere. There doesn’t seem to be any point to the story, then it just ends and it’s done. 

You can do this with an S.O.S., you can jump around, you can be confusing, all … I think actually the more confusing you can be, to a point, the better; because it’s going to mean that people keep showing up to read because they want to know what the hell is going on, okay. 

That’s it for that question, I hope that helps. Now lets get into this podcast, with Mr. Rob Hanly, about “How to Get Started with Consulting”. 

It’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder Guy; I’m here with another podcast with the good old Reverend. Now a couple of weeks ago, would have been last week or maybe the week before that, we talked about the three reasons your marketing strategy will fail, and that was for business owners and consultants and even people just getting started.

There’s some really key reasons why people don’t succeed. They never get thrashing, they never really get off the ground. Today we’re going to mix that up. I got him back on the show because he is actually a very successful consultant and when people usually come to me through our email, they’ve heard me on … they’ve heard this podcast, they’ve heard me on, say on Entrepreneur File, with John Lee Dumas. 

They’ve heard me on one of these tell us your story podcast, where I went to the Philippine’s, I kind of failed a bunch, took up copywriting and started making money, moved to Thailand, and now kind of like this, what seems to a lot of people who have jobs back in an office and all that kind of crap, is that seems like an idea lifestyle. A lot of people are very interested in that. 

What I want to bring up, the Reverend [Inaudible 00:08:13], was to talk about his consulting and actually how to get started, right, because there are people here, maybe it’s you, the listener and you’ve heard about copywriting, you’ve heard about marketing and what you really want to do is, figure out how can you, use what you’ve learn on this podcast.

Use what you’ve learn from something like CopyHour, which is a Copywriting Training Program or other marketing podcast, to kind of escape the cubicle, which is such a cliché phrase these days, but get out of that cubicle, so you can kind of get out there and move to Thailand, move to South America, start doing Skype calls to clients in the U.S. and Australia and U.K. and make money doing that. 

Anyway, we’re going to talk about that in this episode with Rob’s story, John’s story, bunch of stuff but really how to get started with consulting and make money so you can fire your boss and come and live in Thailand and hang out and drink the best coffee in Chaing Mai, I’ll show you where that coffee shop is, it’s really cool. 

Reverend, what’s up man? 

Rob:Just chillin like a villain on the ceiling. 

John:Chillin like a villain on the ceiling. 

Rob:By Bob Dillion. 

John:I hear … I was going to say, you should do an intro, but I’ve got one thing right here. Point number one, is Rob’s story that would be like the best intro, any of us could give. Chillin like a villain, Mr. Villian right here, can you give us the villain story, Rob Hanly’s story? 

Rob:I can, ultimately what I ended up doing was I got involved in consulting a couple of years ago and I previously already done some client work. I was a ADHD mentor originally, ended up working as a graphic designer, working media as a digital producer, had a pretty varied background, worked across a couple of different industries with clients as well as any actually work I was doing myself. 

John:You had a job? 

Rob:I had a job, crazy right. 

John:You worked in an office?

Rob:I worked in an office. 

John:Like there was a coffee machine, bosses, kind like you had to dress up. 

Rob:I once threw a whiteboard marker at my boss and got a promotion. 

John:That’s how you do it, we’re going to do a podcast on that sometime I think. 

Rob:Maintain eye contact, pure alpha status. 

John:You’re a lion. Alright, you had a job, you did all that and then somehow now, you’re in Thailand. 

Rob:Well, yeah look, currently I’m in Thailand. For the record,  I don’t live in Thailand. I’m traveling around for a little bit at the moment, it’s one of the benefits that come from consulting, but to get here was a little hard work, a little sweat and tears, I’m not going to lie. I think that’s something that’s work out quite well. I basically left my job … 

John:It’s hard work? 

Rob:You got to do the work, you got to sweat, you know, you don’t grow a muscle by sitting in the gym, on the floor taking selfies. 

John:What were some of the things that sucked about the journey? 

Rob:You know what; It sucked until I accepted the hard work. It sucked until I accepted that life is easy when you live it the hard way and hard when you live it the easy way. That’s Kekich credo, right? 


Rob:But it wasn’t until I accepted that, and just committed to grinding, for want of a better term. Stop trying to be perfect, stop trying to be that, ‘Oh, so super and special’,  I just got out there and made shit happen. 


Rob:That’s when everything got easier. Up into that stage it was grand, because I had all these ego brain problems going on, oh you’re special, you’re smart, you should be able to do this, why haven’t you’ve done this.

John:I’m looking for the magic trick this is going to unlock the game. 


Rob:There’s no silver bullet, the silver bullet is hard work. 


Rob:Hard work in the right direction. 

John:It’s kind like they talk about the overnight success. Where’s there like five years in the making. 

Rob:Yeah, it’s often times how it works. 

John:Usually when you hear about someone, who’s that is sixteen years old and a millionaire, there’s always a back story. 

Rob:They’re an outlier, and they’re an outlier. 


Rob:Everyone who is going to listen to this or the majority of people, who listen to this, probably read the “Four Hour Work Week”.  Forget it, everyone who reads the Four Hour Work Week …

John:What was your Facebook update status one time? 

Rob:It making you look like you worked a four hour work week is a fulltime job. It’s something that Glen [Inaudible 00:11:28] up and run with and a couple of us locals spoke about, you’ve got two groups of people right? 

There’s a four hour work week, which everyone, wants to have. You’ve got first group who read the book, ignored all the shit about doing hard work and then focused on living in Thailand and taking selfies and drinking coconuts and pretending they’re successful. 

Then you got another group of people, who go well, the concept of the Four Hour Work Week is work as much as you need to, but only work on things you enjoy, doing things that you enjoy, and be able to take time off. 

John:The Four Hour Work Week was a result of a split test on a group, like that title was a split test on Google Outlet, that’s the only reason it’s called the Four Hour Work Week. 

Rob:It was originally, at the seminar that they use to give at the University, was Drug Dealing for Final Profit. That was a title, that was slapped back by the publisher and that’s why they did the ad words. 

John:Maybe you could be a drug dealer for fun on profit, but maybe you would be working tens a hour a week or twenty hours a week or forty hours a week. 

Yeah, right, but one thing that I’ve realized is doing this, as soon as you realized that it’s not about the Four Hour Work Week, and that’s the story, that’s the dream and that’s the marketing thing. 

Really what we’re all doing out here, is just business, and business been done for centuries, basically you’re solving someone’s problem and they’re paying you money to solve it because you’re going to save them time or money or effort. 

Rob:You add value. 

John:You’re going to add value, and that’s all we’re doing. This is … I talked to my grandparents back on Christmas Time the other day, they’re kind like, are you getting by, how’s the internet thing going? Are you making a enough to pay the rent, and well there’s nothing new that we’re doing over here, its business. 

All the internet does it just means I can be in Thailand and I can work with Joe Smith in Sidney, who’s got a plumbing business and needs more leads, customers, whatever. 

We can just channel on Skype, instead of doing a phone call or a meeting at our local coffee shop, we just jump on Skype. That’s what the internet does; it enables business at long distances. 

Rob:It’s a tool of efficiency. Tim Gordon wrote on this years ago, if you search Setco, and Make Money Online, we show we can [Inaudible 00:13:19], but that’s what it is, you understand the internet is a tool of efficiency. It’s not a magic bullet, it’s not going to save you from your day job, it’s not going to make life magic that you hit a green button, and you become [Inaudible 00:13:26] and make thousands of dollars on auto pilot. 


Rob:What it is, you have to put in the hard work first, because it’s a new behavior you have to commit to it, right? That’s where my story started. You’ve heard it a million times, but ultimately I started by sitting at the kitchen table, literally, the classic cliché, I’d wake up real early at 5:00 in the morning, kind of thing. 


Rob:Get a yellow legal pad, a note pad, and write a question at the top, “How can I add “X” dollars in value to people and receive “X” dollars in return, and “Y” dollars in return, today?” I would write a list of twenty-five or thirty things and I would grind, grind and grind and get it all out there. Develop the behavior.


Rob:Then it was about [Inaudible 00:14:00] and use to reach out to people and add value to them first. Showed the, “Hey, here’s how you can improve your site. This is how you can make your site faster. How you can make more money from it. How you can get more leads to yoga studio, your personal training studio, whatever, and hey, I’ve got this other thing but you should call me if you want to find out what it is,” and then I get people on the phone. 

I would talk to them about their problems, and my background was web designer, I had worked in digital production and media, I’m not going to lie, I had an advantage, I have done this before. 

I could just take it and turn it into a sale, do a proposal and make them some money. That’s was it, that’s how got started was the kitchen table and being prepared to do and people talk about sixteen hour days, but really I’m talking like sixteen hour days, man. Food was made while working, eating while working. That’s it. 

John:I would like to say that consulting does have to be hard, it’s really you figure out a problem that you can solve and then you figure out ways you can solve it, really. Whether it’s autoresponder or marketing funnels, or any sort of consultant, marketing consultant or not, it’s really simple like it’s just people have problems that have a need solving. 

You’re just going to be that guy, the challenge that most people have is, well how do you get started, how do you find these people. It started with you; it’s just kind like well, its start think first, start getting your brain on the right track. Which what problems [crosstalk 00:15:10]. 

Rob:How can you add value? 

John:The next thing is to establish trust with someone who has a problem that you might be able to add value to. 


John:Then once you got trust establish and you’ve got a relationship and you can have coffee at Skype or whatever it is, sooner or later there is going to be an opportunity for some sort of exchange or transaction. It’s going to be like, you pay me $1,000 and I will do “X”, 

Rob:I’ll deliver on this. You’ll save time, you’ll make money. Talk about value, not technical stuff.


Rob:Here’s a very important thing, right, you and I are talking about a really straight forward methodology, right. The reason I don’t about you, it took me so long to get real traction, was I didn’t have a methodology that matched me.


Rob:That was something I had to develop and get use to and in the same way, so did you. You had to develop your own methodology for what you were doing when you first started. 

John:That’s a funny thing here, second to that then. I was in the Philippines and well, did you just set out to be the Autoresponder Guy, and the answer was no, completely not. I’ve been to the Philippines I tried a few ideas I got myself band from AD Words, and a couple of different things like that. 

Things weren’t going well, funny thing, I had less than $500 in my bank account, things were getting pretty tight, I was thinking maybe, I was going to have to go home. Buy a ticket on my credit card and I only had a one way ticket to come there. I thought I was going to have to buy a ticket and go home and get a job. 

It did work out anyway, I started doing copywriting, that wasn’t even … I didn’t even start learning copywriting to become a consultant, that was never the intention. I just wanted to learn copy. One, I was fascinated with it, and two, I had a website which was sort of selling … I was selling this EBook, just not very many of them, it was it made like a $1,000. in three months. Not really a big deal with the EBook. 

That’s what made me get into copywriting and I think it was around June in 2012 the first invoice, I sent was to Dan Andrews because he was in …

John:That’s right, he was in Porta Bel Air in the Phillipines at the time, for bit of a like a TropicalMBA classes, like  one of these seminar conference things, and he saw me  kind of writing down sales by hand on my little legal pad, it wasn’t yellow. 

We go through this, he saw, he’s like what are doing, I told him I’m copywriting. Then that lead to Autoresponder. I can’t remember why, or how we got onto email, he just said, he would love to have a good email sequence on his site. I’d never done it before; I never had done it for any client. I kind of had a rough idea based on what I’d done for myself and I’d been to Andre Chaperon’s course, Autoresponder’s Madness. 


John:I did the Autoresponders, he paid me $200 via Paypal, I spent two full days and work on it all day. Did the same thing the day after and gave him ten emails for $200 dollars and then he was really happy with it and I think it was a week later, at the end of the seminar, he asked around and gave him [Inaudible 00:17:35], would you pay for this. 

Would you pay for this Autoresponder, and a whole bunch of people were like yeah and then he was like, how much would you pay? Some people were like $500, one guy even said like $1500. I said, “There is no way.” I was surprised enough when Dan said, he would pay, $200 just for emails. 

Then it, just grew from there, I fell into this Autoresponder thing and the same kind of thing, I was kind of in the Philippines and I was surrounded by guys like Dan Andrews, who were business owners, who had websites, who had problems. That was an advantage, but that was something anyone can create, go to seminars, conferences, all that. 

Rob:Connect with people, who have problems. 



John:People hear that you have a skill, like copywriting, whatever it happens to be like website design, or logo design, they going to be like,  I’ve been looking for a guy to do that, because most business owners have so many things that they want to do, but they haven’t got around to it, because they’re busy and they’re lazy too. When they hear that you can do something, especially if you’re just getting started, they’ll give you a shot. 


John:That’s really how you get started isn’t it, you build from there, then you kind of need a bit of different skill set to grow that, but that’s where it starts. 

Rob:Yeah, one thing I really want to address right now, when we spoke about hard work and luck and  all this things involved; but ultimately, if somebody wants to become a consultant right, there’s a couple of prerequisites;

One, you have a skill set which will solve somebodies problem. If you don’t have that skill set, you can’t be a consultant. You might be a sales guy, and you can sell somebody else’s services and white label them, but you can’t …

John:That’s still a skill set. 

Roby:That’s a skill set, that’s true, but you’re not the consultant, so to speak. You’re just a sales guy, but you got a skill right, maybe you get really good at copywriting, get really good at funnels like John is, maybe you get good at SEO’s, whatever it is. You come in, and you managed to get good at a specific skill that solves a specific problem. 

Then you find people, who have that problem, and then you emailed them, and add value, and you call them and add value, or you meet them and add value. Then you segway, “Hey look I’ve got some other cool stuff, you might be interested in. let’s talk about it.” 

That’s it, that’s the silver bullet, get a skill, see the problem that it solves, and reach out to people who have those problems, add value, and make money. That’s it. I think it kind of brings up a point as well, is the difference between you and I, and our approaches. 

I’ve known John what, for two years.

John:Yeah, around two years. 

Rob:Yeah. We got along pretty well from the start and the longer we spent together, the more different we realized we are in certain aspects, in particular our approached. 

John:Same, same, but different. 

Rob:Very same, same, but different and the way we kind of discuss this is, John is essentially the hammer. Right, like you want something to happen. You want someone to go hulk mode and beat through the wall, that’s John, John will just beat down every brick in the damn wall, where I on the other hand, would like to take a couple of minutes and try to find out which of the three bricks are the weakest and just focus my energy on those. 

For me that came my I got ADHD, my background was ADHD mentoring, it was really about understanding about focus and teaching other people to do the same stuff. I would be a hypocrite, if I didn’t. 

You on the other hand love the hulk strategy. 

John:I just love that quote man, it was from Mark Zuckerberg, move fast and break stuff. I like move fast and break shit. It just sounds better, it’s more aggressive. 

It something I want to just want to qualify here, it’s not just go out and just break stuff. You don’t just go out beat this hammer, and beat the crap out this all. There’s still an element of this, try to identify the three bricks, whereas, you might get a small chisel and a hammer, and chip away like a bit of a sculptor. 

You do a very neat job, very precise job on those bricks. I would rather find those, I guess, I still would want to identify what my outcome is, which is identify a couple of those bricks, then get a freakin rocket launcher and fire that rocket launcher, at those three bricks. 

I still know the outcome, I just want to hit that thing as hard as I can and I’m going to make a few mistakes, stuff is going to break. I’m going to do the wrong thing from time to time. 

I know if I just keep executing, on that strategy, and I’ve noticed that’s generally what works with my personality as well, is that my skill is usually forgetting about what can go wrong, and just moving forward in spite of kind of the questions. 

Rob:That’s it. Yeah, like that move fast and break stuff, is such a good response, in terms of, if you’re scared of doing something right, like definitely going to be a stage in my life, where that’s how I operated, because I was being held by this fear of failure, where god what if I say the wrong thing, what if I swear on the podcast, what if I insult someone and then you just have to go, you know what I’m going to move fast, I’m going to break something’s, I’m going to except that there is collateral damage. 

What I found the longer I did it for, was my personality after I kind of conquered that fear sort of things,  I was more attracted to being specific, being choosey, and being very much about, alright, so you have these customers, let me have a look at these customers. 

Who’s most popular gender, what’s the most profitable marital status, what’s the most profitable occupation, what’s the most profitable common identifier, across all these groups. 

When we send the sales campaign, I said to John before, I feel like when you send out a sales campaign you get a 5% overrate, that 95% wasted email. I much rather meet the right market, at the right time, with the right message and offer them a really good product at their offering, right off the bat. As oppose to rocket launching. I think because for me, that works well for my personality. 

Because I get this shit when I add myself to an email list and it’s almost like, yeah man, let me send you some really cool by the way, if you hit reply, I’m not going to respond, because I’m a dick. 

If you got an autoresponder, if you got an email list, you need to accept that you’re giving me you’re email I’m letting you into my Inbox. If you ignore me when I reply, you’re out of here and I ain’t going to spend a dollar on you. 

John:That’s stuff, … that’s where the difference is, it’s good to talk about this, because some people are going to think, it’s like one’s better than the other,  I use to think that’s the case.  That the way I was doing it, it was better than everyone else did it. Now I’m like no, it’s not, it just what works for me right now, at this point and time. But in this case, of this email, you might want to analyses the psychographics was the words, you used. 

Rob:Yeah, Psychographics and Social Graphics. 

John:I would be… it’s important that I get it, and I know why you do it, and why people do that stuff. But to me it’s, to get too analytical, to go too deep on that stuff, bores me to tears. I’d rather be like, what’s the goal here? What’s the minimum I can do, to get the maximum result, and then just fire away? 

Rather than spend too much time analyzing and thinking about it, I’m really trying to perfect that approach, just ready, fire, aim. That’s total me.  That’s not that’s better, you’re strategy would be more like a ready, aim, fire. 

Rob:I would like to know more of a strategist overview of the landscape, before I choose where to fire. 


Rob:That’s it. I guess I’m like ready aim and fire, don’t get me wrong, a lot of people perceive this as being really a polar opposite kind of thing, you really have to move fast and break a lot of stuff. 

It’s like, hey look at me, I’m going to break a lot of stuff, and I’m going to call 16,000 people a day in cold calls or I’m going to call one person, and nobody else and I’m going to wait until I pick that perfect one person. 

Reality is, John and I have both found what works well for us. We’ve found, where our natural skill set lies and our natural mood [Inaudible 00:23:54], and we’ve accepted what our ways are. 

Like for me, I like to build up a little bit more dialog before I take action, so I can go into it with total boldness. Whereas John will go with the boldness from the get go. That doesn’t work for me and that’s fine. Just shows we have different approaches, to how we approach. 

John:It’s almost like; there is a little bit two sides of the same coin, like if we’re playing a video game you know how you have points for agility, points for wisdom, and magic and all that kind of crap. 

In this case you might have there’s two attributes here, which you have move fast and break shit. Then the other attribute might be prepare, or aim something like that. 

Rob:Preps something really good example man, because I use really struggle with preparing and that’s probably why I really double down on it, it’s my biggest weakness. Once I plugged that hole, because I use to always wing it, I still wing it. 

But when I double down on my preparation, that’s where I see huge returns. That’s when I moved from doing cheap websites and cheap jobs, to charging minimum low five figures. 


Rob:Because I was able to sit here and talk to some guy and say, “Hey man, that’s really cool, you might say I’ve ready research your company, you, your people, your company, people you work with, past  results, seen the capital you’ve had, the institutional capital you’ve had, all your existing product offerings.” 

When I sit there, it sounds like I’m going off the guild, because I am, but I’ve got all that extra prep, in the back of my head and that gave me more confidence in sitting down and talking to people about where they’re at, and the problems they’ve got. 

John:There’s an element here where you’re absolutely correct and you need both, it’s kind like you need to be out preparing to identify what needs to  happen and then have some background information, but when it’s time to act, you need to come down, this is always mine, come down like an atomic bomb. 

Rob:Yes, you got to do it, you just got to commit. 

John:Yeah, kind of get called out, if all your doing is going out there an breaking stuff,  you’re not going to get anywhere, just piss people off, and you’re just going to make a mess, but if all you do is prepare, you’re never actually going to do anything. You’re just going to just prepare, prepare, prepare and never get the results. You’re going to be the talker. 

Rob:I think this is a really a good point, as where you’re a hammer, I’m a scalpel, ultimately both of these things are calls of action. We go a different psychological path essentially, to reach the same outcome. 

Similar enough outcome, maybe the way that we get there is a little different, but the outcome is within the percentile difference, If you’re sitting at home and you’re listening to the podcast, whether if you’re on the train or on the way to work or whether you at home, or your business, or you wanting to become a consultant. 

The first thing to understand, as we discussed, that there is a basic pathway and you’re way of traveling that pathway, and reaching that outcome might be different, but that’s find.  As long as you travel the pathway, as long as you take action, get up and do shit take action, provide value, and solve problems. 

John:It’s kind like, a lot of people look for this map, and people look at internet marketing products and make money online and all this stuff, as though there’s one right way, there’s one right path. There is not. 

There’s about a billion roads, pulling an infinite amount of roads, to get to where ever you want to get. There’s all those roads, that you’ve already walked. There’s ones, no one else has ever walked, and no one else even knows those other roads exist. It’s kind like a cool day, when you realized that you don’t have to follow only roads that are already out there, you can actually go out there. 

This is when you get the best results. When you start, like have a rough idea about where you want to go, and how you are going to get there, but at the end of the day, you’re going to blaze your own trail. That doesn’t mean doing something wildly different; it just means that, realizing that you don’t have to do the same thing everyone else does. 

You can, kind of figure out what works for you, in the context of what your ultimately outcome is. 

Rob:It’s like riding motorbikes. John and I would catch up, we would ride motor bikes together, something we enjoy doing. 

John:Sunday, we’re going Sunday, right. 

Rob:Yeah, I’m going to go on Sunday. What you would find is if you ever ride with John and I, what you would find is, we’ll both reach the same destination, we’ll both travel the same road, but we’ll take variations on that road.

John might take the right lane; I might take the left lane. Maybe John will speed up, maybe I won’t. Whatever it is, we’ll both end up at the same outcome, at roughly the same time and yet there will always be a bit of  similar path taken, but we’ll still do things in our own style and accepting that there is a lot of room to breathe, you don’t have to be anally perfect. 

That kind of brings to like, what I reckon is one of the most important things to understand. We spoke about this on the last podcast that we did together, which was about where your focus is.  About what is the strategic outcome that you want and what are the steps you need to take to get there? More importantly what are the things that are relevant? 

The course that I have, is to help people who want to become a consultant. 


Rob:Take action steps, to become consultant over the course of thirty six days. All right, we talk about everything from, who are the target markets that you can help. Here’s where to find them. The methodology that I talk about, which is using Google and he’s had to approach them, and he’s had to write emails, he’s had to get them on the phone, his had to talk to them on the phone, had to get a proposal to them, he’s had to close the sale and he’s had to deliver the work, and he’s had to keep the cash coming in, right. 

It’s been really successful for the people who just go, alright this is the methodology and I’m going to follow this, I’m going to put my spin on it, I’m going to take the steps and this is like following the road, but choosing your own lane. 

One of the things I’m a big proponent for, everyone doing this course, still ask me is, do I need a website, do I need a Facebook page, do I need a Twitter account, do I need a Pinterest account, do I need a LinkedIn page, the answer is no, no, no, no, and no. You don’t need this stuff, right.

John:But you need to be a hammer or a scalpel. 

Rob:You do, you do. 

John:You need to do something; you need like to start swinging. 

Rob:You need to start swinging, [Crosstalk 00:28:40]

John:A baseball bat, you got to swing. 

Rob:Pick your weapon, but what you then do, is you swing. Don’t worry about, “Oh, do I got like 16,000 samurai swords,” you go alright, pick one, and I’m just going to use this sword and hack away at it. 

It’s bit of a metaphor, but ultimately, here’s a case, if you are like wanting to become a consultant, or you’ve got dreams of it or if you’re just starting and you’re finding that you spend an hour a day, two hours a day, three hours a day,  doing something like Facebook and Twitter and Pinterest, and you’re not getting  in front of people who have your problem and adding value to them, and then offering to solve your problem for money, your focus is off. 

Just a cold hard fact, if you are not doing anything that is not getting you in front of people, who will need your services, you’re wasting your time. Now, it doesn’t mean you have to do it twelve hours a day. But I guarantee you, if you do that for four hours a day, you’ll see huge gains. Mixing yourself with those people right. 

John:I like this … with the McIntyre Method and McMasters, I talk about … you got this whole way Thomas Day marketing, you got … this [Inaudible 00:29:31] big canyon, there’s a crazy wild river and Northern Canadian wilderness, there’s this river rapids running through the bottom of the valley, and this canyon just goes might be a hundred, two hundred, three hundred feet, meters, just a really, really big cliff. 

Rob:A really deep canyon. 

John:Then, on the one side on the top of that canyon, you got a stick figure, because I draw in stick figure, when I draw. 

Rob:Their beautiful stick figures. 

John:They are, I like beautiful stick figures. You got like a stick figure going on the left, of this canyon on the top, and he’s your prospect, right. He’s Joe Smith, in this case, for consulting, he’s got some sort of business, whatever your target prospect is. 

Rob:He runs a plumbing company. 

John:He runs a plumbing company. 

Rob:Joe Smiths plumbing [Inaudible 00:30:05]. 

John:On the right side of that canyon, you’ve got the product, which is going to be a website or  order or a sales funnel, anything. 

Rob:I think it’s similar, but it’s an outcome.      

John:An outcome.

Rob:An outcome. 

John:He wants more leads, okay. 

Rob:Let’s do that.

John:Then what the marketing needs to do, is whether your using an autoresponder or cold calling, or banner ads or classified ads in your newspaper, or walking into like sales calls, walking in to business, whatever that is, the marketing strategy basing it upon that bridge, from one side of that canyon to the other. 

Your prospect is, Joe Smith, is  going to be able to walk across that bridge in beautiful stick figure fashion, do you see the walking stick figure? 


John:He walks across and then he walks into … he is going to be fine, he picks up this outcome, which is more leads, more sales, whatever it happens to be and you’ve connected him. Your marketing is connecting your prospect  with your product, bamb. 

That’s a simple thing. All they got to do is identify who is that prospect, what are they are selling them, what outcome they are selling 

Rob:What outcome does the prospect desire?

John:Then everything after that, all the hammer swing, the scalpel swing, whatever it happens to be, is all about connecting the prospect with the product. That’s it, everything else can be thrown out. Doesn’t wear like a Facebook page, how much effect is that really going to have on connecting your prospect with your profit? 

Not much. If you add a Facebook advertising campaign to your page, and your page to a phone number on there, and a call to action. That’s a little bit different. That’s pretty optimized. 

Rob:This is a really important point actually, again you cracking out the good point today, John.

John:Cracking them out. 

Roby:You’re cracking them out

John:Cracker Jack.

Rob:For those people, who listen to Johns Podcast, want to be a copywriter, right. Here is a caveat, right. You will pick a skill set, you need to understand that your skill set cannot solve every problem, if somebody needs more leads, then maybe a SEO will help. 

At the same time, if somebody needs more leads and they are private high in the referral boutique and SEO is probably not what they’re after. I’m saying, that  if you only have one skill set and one knowledge and you don’t have a network at all, you’re going to start approaching every problem, in the same way. 

When we were talking about the canyon, the person on one side, the bridge, and like the outcome they want, it’s really important to understand what the prospects outcome is and if you cannot solve it with your skill set, don’t try to force your skill set in. 

Don’t try to convince him of something, just go ahead call him and say, “Sorry I don’t think I can help you.” Then go back a focus on the people who want the outcome that you can offer, under your perimeters, of your skill set. Don’t try and … I get emails all the time from people who are copywriters and say I just want to be a copywriter.

No, no, no, you want to be someone who solves problems, by using the medium of text. You solve problems, it’s not about you being a copywriter, and it’s about solving the problems of your prospect. 


Rob:If copy is the best way to do that, use copy. Copy is invariable by the way,  is a phenomenal  skill set  to have because it teaches you to think more persuasively, more influentially, it helps you  communicate with much greater clarity, but if you think everything is about solving something with better copywriting you are wrong.

Sometimes its literal a case of going, ‘Hey, you got a business, you got a great range of prospects, who connected to a current client base, had to go to a referral system.’ 

Here’s how we can use copy to solve that. Not, let me do some copywriting for you because I want to make you lots of money. That’s probably the difference is [Crosstalk 00:32:54]…

John:It’s not about a copy; it’s never about the product. 

Rob:It’s never about the tool. 

John:An example of this, a recent one, that I obviously we’ve  been doing email, sort of writing emails [Inaudible 00:33:04] getting them out and writing them as well and I guess a recent realization is, I’m a little bit embarrassed to say, is that people don’t really want email, they obviously don’t want emails.

Emails are like a commodity, like you’re buying a pack of soap. What they really want is a clean body and in this case; in the case of emails, they want more sales.

What a better product would be, not just emails, because emails don’t do that much, what someone wants is a full service where they get a squeeze page, an email sales, like a email sequence, a sales page, tracking so they know where all the sales are coming from, and ideally split testing, if they had a enough traffic for it. 

That’s a much, much better, much better, and much higher price solution as well. 

Rob:Something that you can really stand out with, as well. 

John:Yeah, but it’s all the same stuff.   I don’t need to learn anything new to do that, it’s just kind of packaging it and adding a few tweets, like adding the tracking in and it becomes a whole new thing. 

Rob:It does. Let’s take this alright, let’s talk about, legitimately getting started with consulting, we’ve spoken about how, I started out after leaving my job, I ground on my kitchen table if you will, writing notes by hand, making calls, sending emails, and developed  the methodology that worked for me and that’s what I knew. You talked about having fills, you were there, you connected with Dan Andrews from Tropical MBA, got into enough orders upon entry, and both of us gained traction in our own ways and now we have sort of an approach that we follow, right.

For example you have your leads generation methodologies, my very much referral base, and introduction base, we charge different price points. We service different markets. 

What’s really important, I guess is, if someone is listening to this, is how do they get started in consulting. Now we mentioned your first full figured client and if that’s something you’re interested in, we’ll come back in a second. 

But ultimately, here’s what I would say, like if I was sitting across from you right now, and you said to me Rob, how do I become a consultant, how do I get started with it. 

I would really hash these points. 

One, have a skill set that solves problems. 

Two, figure out who has those problems and knows that they have those problems. 


Rob:Get in front of them. 


Rob:Figure out wherever they are, and then get in front of them. Maybe that is going to be by sending cold emails, cold phone calls. I understand, in some markets like the Danish market, it’s illegal to send a cold email, you cannot do it. Maybe you have to go meet them. Maybe you have to organize an event, where you get them altogether in front of you, free presentations, whatever it is. Get in front of those people. 

Then commit to taking action every single day. You know the problem that they need solved. You know the outcome that they desire, you know the way to bridge the gap and you talked about that [Inaudible 00:35:04].


Rob:Then you do it every day. I tell you become a consultant, this is the magic bullet, just do something every single day. 

John:I like that. 

Rob:Would that be your advice? 

John:Absolutely, absolutely,  for one thing I know a lot of people like is and I’ve noticed with the McIntyre method and people are wondering right now, you mentioned your course a second ago, it’s like a thirty … thirty-five day thing. 


John:There’s an auto responder to get an email every day, to do this right? 

Rob:I don’t call it an auto responder, mainly because what it is, this is a huge journey, this idea of becoming a consultant … what is a consultant? Now I know when I first started, I typed into to Google to find consultant. 


Rob:Figuring out all these elements. Ultimately as a consultant, your job is to improve the client’s condition, right? Instead of it being a thirty-six day autoresponder, it gives you a daily action task, for thirty-six days. 


Rob:I tell you, ‘Hey, John, today this is what you’re doing.’ 

John:So, you can build momentum there. 

Rob:Build momentum. 

John:By the end of the thirty-six days, what will I have, if I did it? 

Rob:If you follow the instructions, right, and if you go all the way through the course and by the way throughout the course, I tell people email me, that’s the main reason I …

John:You reply to emails. 

Rob:I reply to every email and this is the main reason I’m bumping up the prices, because quite frankly, I can’t reply to all the emails without losing part of my day now. It’s a case of, if you speak with me, right, I’ll help you out, I have a couple of clients who are going through, that I’ve coached as well. 

It’s a case is if you follow it, you will get results. The average report return on investment is over 7,000%. 

John:You mentioned one guy, I can’t remember what his name was, who went through the course and I was blown away, I was like man that is so cool, he went through and he just applied everything and then he made … he picked up like a whole bunch of clients, like 10 grand, something like that? 

Rob:Plenty yeah. There were a couple of different markets. This is the other side of this consulting thing, it’s the same principal at a base level, in the last three weeks, I’m spoken to a guy who works at New York, he is one of my favorite, favorite clients man, this guy is amazing. 

I’m not going to give you his name, not because of his privacy, but he’s a normal individual, if he’s hearing it, he knows who he is, I love chatting with him, his [Inaudible 00:36:47]. 

More importantly he took this to a market and I remember the first time I got an email off him, during the course was after less than a week or just over a week, it’s like sorry man, I just got to stop taking the course for a bit, because I’m already getting more clients, awesome. 

Then I had another guy go through it, who was in a completely different market and again I speak to him quit regularly and he went into a very different direction and he was a bit shaky at first, but he stuck with it, he followed the process. He didn’t try and make it magical. That’s where most people come off, and he got some results. 

This is the client that things happen over and over again. These guys who kind of follow that process, look we just laid that process out man, like it’s your recipe …

John:Like you’re baking a cake, if you use a recipe and follow it, you get a cake. 

Rob:Yeah. You’ll get 80% similar results and this is the thing, we’ve already told you exactly what you need to do, on this podcast if you want to become a consultant. 

You can take this podcast, you could transcribe it by hand and you can become a consultant. Your first work for your client is about teaching you what to do alone. I mean there is some cool stuff, there is some tablets and proposals and all that stuff but it’s about saying, “Hey like you know, you’re interesting if you want to become a consultant, you realize it’s a big journey and realistically you want some accountability and a bit of hand holding. You want a step by step system to follow that’s work for other people.”


Rob:That’s where that comes in. It’s not so much like, hey go do this stuff and now you’re on your own, it’s like, at the end of thirty-six days even if you  haven’t acquired a first four figured client, you’ll have sales tool, you’ll have proposals, things that are based on behavioral phycology  and behavioral economics.

I don’t know if you remember it, the article I wrote for your [stressor 00:38:05] site, was on a book called “Predictably Irrational”, by Dan Ariely.  Phenomenal book, and I took the concepts from that book for behavioral economics and used that to create proposals, then my closing rate just went through the roof, when I first got started. I copied that, okay. 

Then one of the guys took that, and made that his own, and he’s made tens of thousands of dollars off the back of it. It’s pretty cool man. 

John:That is pretty cool. 

Rob: If you want to become a consultant listen to this episode again, follow the steps. 

John:But if they want to get this, the name of his course is called “Your First Four Figured Client “, obviously what you people get is .. 

Rob:Your, First Four Figure Client, First Four Figure Client, its bit of a tongue twister, your First Four Figure Client. 

John:Because you want to say is anyway, where can I go check this out if I want to. Should I make a redirect link on my …

Rob:Yeah, we’re going to have a special link [Inaudible 00:38:49] That’s easy. 

Rob:The number 4. 

John:Yeah the number 4., and that will go to 

Rob:A special back end, so that’s actually something this really worth noting, right. Like I mentioned before, 

John:Because you closed it right? 

Rob:I did, I put it on a waiting list because of the volume of people coming through and at the moment there is a waiting list, so I can handle as people come through, I can answer them without sacrificing my own consulting work, in my own business’s, I can still give them the attention they need. 

Pretend it’s like a backend door, honestly if a heap of people who listen to this podcast, I know you got a list of downloads, I will send it off,  because I want to make sure that … no like legitimately this sounds like false quessing and all that crap. The reality it’s not in my best interest to give people a subpar experience. 

It’s not in my best interest to say, hey, thanks for the money; see you later, because I want you to be really successful. If you’re listening to this, you want to become a consultant. Cool, come check it out man. Come look at what we got, I’ll break it down for you, if you got questions, I’ll answer them, because it’s in my best interest to help you make a lot more money, because ultimately I have other trainers that I work with other consultants on, to help them add reoccurring clients to their business and get that reoccurring revenue coming through that retainer tops off. 

I want to make you money, if I didn’t give you a really good experience and help you get through there; you’re never going to get to that stage. I would shoot myself in the foot. That’s the other reason why this is not a $1600 course like other ones. 

This is right off here, this is the cost,  it’s less than $200 bucks, you can get started, and the average point of return for investment is over 7,000% , if this works for you also, make a 1,000, you say hey, I’ll give you a refund. 

John:Easy, pesy, Japanese. 

Rob:That’s a bit different. 

John:We’ll add the link to that. You can go to, that’s a number four or you can go to find this podcast post and there will be a link in that podcast post to that link, which will take you to the backdoor the special secret door an entry to your First Four Figure Client, Rob thanks for coming on the show again. 

Rob:You’re welcome. If you guys have any questions right, throw me a tweet @robhanly.

John:Rob Hanly. 

Rob:Yeah, no “e” in Hanly, that’s like the thing I got to underscore, no “E” in Hanly, but if you got a question on the [Inaudible 00:40:38], you wanted to know if this is going to be right for you, if you think that your situation is different, sure, shoot me a tweet, we can have a [Inaudible 00:40:42] or something. 

John:You also have a website,

Rob:I do, I do have a website. 

John:You do an occasional post on … some interesting stuff actually, not always consulting or marketing it’s often. 

Rob:Very rarely. 

John:Just cool stuff, I’ll just let them go check that out, just cool stuff, we’ll just say that. 

Rob:Cool, then well I’ll tell you right now, seeing that, a post which I think that every entrepreneur should read, because it deals with that podcast … I’m sorry that roller coaster, that up and own process of being an entrepreneur that reality of it, it kind of  breaks it down, gives you a framework to follow how to deal with it. 

John:That’s good, it will be a great place to start.

Rob:It will help you deal with the emotional side. 

John:Yeah, cool man, well we will wrap it up here, will get to go to the gym, go grind some iron, go pump some iron, that’s the word and yeah, I mean 

Rob:It’s like Bob, Bob the guy who had the son pumping iron. 

John:Pumping iron on youtube, maybe we can get a link to that on the show as well, there’s a youtube video this guy pumping iron that our friend always recommends. If you’re going to go to the gym, you want to listen to this song, it’s going to get you pumped up

Rob:Two bongs, and it’s recommended 

John:Two bongs, go check that out. Alright we’re wrapping up here, we’re rambling here, so 

Rob:Thank you very much for listening to us talk about consulting remember in this show we’ve given you the path, right. Now there is variations of the path, you’ll find your own. 

John:It’s up to you to walk the path. 

Rob:No one can walk it for you. 

John:I need for you right now, so any way let’s wrap it up here, thanks for coming on man.   

The post Episode #60 – Rob Hanly on How to Become a Marketing Consultant Using a Simple 3-Step Formula appeared first on McMethod.

Jun 03 2014



Rank #4: Episode #199 – Gabriella Rapone On Get Into The Inbox. Secrets Email Service Providers Will Never Reveal

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I first heard about Gabriella Rapone on a Facebook comment.

It was a thread involving two friends, marketers and former guests…

Justin Goff (Episode #158) and Dave Miz (Episode #145).

She is an inboxing expert…

having worked in some shadier areas of email in her past.

She talks about how she got into the email game.

How she helps business owners get their email game on point.

It’s a free-flowing conversation we jumped into so pardon the lack of the usual intro.

She drops a ton of knowledge.

Such as how to correct any problems you’re having getting your email delivered to the right place.

A lot of ideas and “behind the curtain” knowledge about Email Service Providers.



Writing emails.

We move fast through many issues and ideas in this short but action-packed interview.

I know it will help our listeners.

Whether getting your emails into your people’s inboxes…

or correcting the simple errors a lot of small business owners are making to boost your response…

Gabi delivers the goods.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • The one mistake even experienced brands and businesses make in every single email.
  • Email Service Providers. The good, bad and ugly. Who shoudl you be using?
  • Why THIS email myth pushed by so many “experts” is dumb, dumb, dumb and what your emails should doing instead.
  • GDPR mania. “Behind the curtain” truth on how it should have gone down.
  • How to “gauge” when your business needs to “go it alone”. Have you reached this income level with your email?


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: If people are having some of these issue or they’re thinking about this and they’re brand new even and they’re looking to set themslevs up for success. What re some of the ESP’s you love and also if they’re starting from scratch what steps should they take to be proactive about avoidng problems?

Gabriella Rapone: That’s a great question. So that’s one of the two questions I always get. Which ESP should I be picking, which, you know, is a valid question because people want to know what is quick and easy.

Do I have a favorite one? It really comes down to what tools you need to make your business successful and I actually ahve this cheat sheet that I give to people that actually lists the priorities so that you know…OK lets say that you need 24 hour support. Right? email is a 24/7 game, its not a 9-5 game right? And we all know the problems never happen 9-5. They happen at 5:05 – so that’s it, depending on your business you know this is why I ahve this checklist because it really depends on what you need.

I often say I need 24/7 assistance. I need to know if there is a problem I can pick up the phone or I can speak to someone via chat and I can get it resolved.

Because If I am not emailing I’m not making money.

And if I’m not making money I don’t need a service provider.

So this is why it really comes down to why “this is what you need”.

Of course, you want to keep things a s simple as possible when you start because that’s what kind of intimidates people. A lot of people are intimidated by email because they think there’s a lot of setup that needs to be done. There isn’t much setup to be done but you do need to be aware of what will set you up for success.

The post Episode #199 – Gabriella Rapone On Get Into The Inbox. Secrets Email Service Providers Will Never Reveal appeared first on McMethod.

Jul 10 2018



Rank #5: Episode #137 – Craig Ballantyne on How To Own Your Day & Control Your Destiny (practical steps & advice)

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Are you waiting to make sense of this crazy thing we called life?

No need to wait,

Craig will tell you.

Because the best things in life are simple.

By following these simple yet powerful Five Pillars,

Craig Ballantyne was able to overcome crippling anxiety,

And find all the answers he needed.

Now the author of The Perfect Day Formula,

…Craig shares how he beat all his doubts down,

As well as shares MANY potentially life changing nuggets throughout this show.

It’s a long one for a reason!

He’s been interviewed on Russian Television about this method.

Has gone viral on LifeHacker,

And is featured regularly in Men’s Health.

Learn how to carve your perfect day,

And smash all your goals.

Even Russell Brunson swears by his method..

If you are ready to put some order in your days,

Or if you just want some great advice,

This is a good episode for you.

P.S. Read his daily essays over at

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • How Craig helps his coaching clients get more done, make more money, and have a lot of freedom in their lives (no matter how busy they are)
  • Your Magic Time: Find it , build it, protect it and then build your schedule around THAT (this alone is pretty life changing)
  • Why you should stay as close to your wakeup time as often as possible (find out why and how waking up halfway through your natural sleep cycle is messing up your mornings..)
  • The 5 Pillars derived from Epictetus teachings (these work for literally ANYTHING.. from fitness to business to getting out of debt goals)
  • How writing your goals at night lets your subconscious come up with your hardest to find answers..
  • How to identify your Season of Life; Health, Wealth, Family or Personal Development, and then build your goals around it


  • Blacksmith Club
  • Jocko Willink’s 4:45am Club
  • Cal Newport’s “Deepwork”
  • Dwayne “the Rock” Johnson
  • The Surrender Experiment
  • Sleep Smarter Book

Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

Raw transcript:

Download PDF transcript here.

All right it’s John McIntyre here; I’m here with Craig Ballantyne. Now Craig is a productivity and success transformation coach from Toronto Ontario, Canada and the author of “The Perfect Day Formula: How to Own the Day and “Control Your Life”. He’s been contributing to Men’s Health magazine since 2000 and in 2001 he created a popular home workout program called Turbulent Training. And on his journey to success he’s had to overcome crippling anxiety attacks and he beat them with his five pillars of transformation. Today Craig show’s men and women how to use the five pillars to lose 10 to 75 pounds get a raise and make more money. Find the love of your life and pretty much overcome any obstacle in the way of your success. Now you can read his daily essays on Success Productivity and Fitness Early to Rise. what’s interesting is I actually met Craig three — I think it was three years ago at the blacksmith — there was a blacksmith in Lithuania, of all places, which was sort of a strange story when people would ask me if I’d been in Europe and the only place I’d been was Lithuania, but anyway back then I tried to get a podcast going. Didn’t happen and now three years later here we are finally talking about — we’re doing a podcast here with Craig. So today we’re gonna talk about his book, “The Perfect Day Formula”, and we’ve got some questions that we’ll get into. I think you’re gonna make this really interesting cause I’ve played around with my routine a lot. So there — there we go. Craig how you going?

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah real great, yes. So it’s great to connect again after all these years John. It’s fantastic to see what you’ve been up to. I mean you’re just making an amazing head waves in the world.

John McIntyre: [Laughter] thanks mate, you too, by the sound of it.

Craig Ballantyne Well I appreciate that and you know I actually I will say that one of the interviews you did with John Lee Dumas about constructing webinars really helped me with a webinar I had the other month. So thank you very much. Now the student has become the teacher so, thank you very much.

John McIntyre: He is a machine when it comes to those webinars.

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah he is.

John McIntyre: So let’s — I mean I’ve done the, you know, given you a little bit of an intro there. Can you give the list — maybe a bit more of a background? You know who are you, what are you like, what are you into, what do you do?

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah for sure. So I’m — I was born very close to Toronto in Canada and I grew up playing ice hockey. Ice hockey was the thing there and so, I went to college thinking I was going to be a strength and conditioning coach in the National Hockey League, of all things, and so that was what I wanted to do and then in 2000 I started writing for Men’s Health Magazine and realized I loved helping the busy guy get home from work and do these short burst workouts that I invented and so, I got into creating information products and selling them on the internet. Did that for about 12 years before we met, John, and I also have bought another business called which is more of a personal development business. And so we sell books and all sorts of information on helping people build their wealth and their health.

John McIntyre: Awesome, awesome. So I was reading a bit about your story and how it all came together with — cause it started, you know, I read this a few days ago, but you started to want to get into the online stuff. I think you had a business coach, at one point, then that — eventually you came, you know, Turbulence Training grew and grew and grew into from — what I remember was a million dollar business or multiple millions and then you eventually leveraged that or leveraged that success to then go and invest or buy or become a partner in Early to Rise which is where you’ve been now, for a few years, and now it’s just grown from there.

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah that’s pretty much it and it was 2006 when I hired that first business coach and that’s when my Turbulence Training business really took off. I mean it was doing okay before that, but getting that business coach was like the exponential increase in business and so, I always tell people that was my number one mistake, was waiting too long to get a business coach. And it’s the number one piece of advice that I give to anybody is get a coach! Get a mentor! Someone who has been there and done that, who has achieved what you want to do and who shares your morals and ethics and your values. And when you have somebody like that to guide you, whether it’s for a couple of months or whether it’s for years, you’ll become a better person and a much more successful person as well in so many areas of life.

John McIntyre: I was wondering that when I read that. It seemed like you’d been going for three years or four years or something before you actually got around to hiring the coach.

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah, I mean, I was just silly and stupid and cheap and stubborn and thinking I knew everything and it was just a bad, bad decision to wait so long. I should’ve been in there earlier; I should’ve hired a coach in 2003 or 2004. I would’ve got my book out earlier, I would have helped more people — everything would be even greater than it is right now. So it just, you know, anybody that’s listening — no matter how much you think you know everything or you know even if money is a little tight, if you get enough money to invest in resource do it because it will then give you a 10 to 1 or 100 to 1 return on investment which then you can leverage and invest into more coaching. So I always tell people if you’re really broke start with free YouTube videos. Make a little bit of money from that, you know? From learning about people or go to the library and read somebody’s book. And then when you made $100 or $500 invest in your next course. And then when you made $5,000 invest and go into their seminar. And then when you made, you know, $20,000 or $50,000 invest in that person’s mastermind group or find a way to intern with them. But get out there and find your coach as soon as you can.

John McIntyre: I reckon that’s great advice, but the challenge — the challenge that I’ve found with this, cause I’ve worked with a few different coaches now, and I think people who are listening to this it’s gonna be like well in today you would’ve seen this — there’s a proliferation of life coaches and business coaches who are gonna, you know, solve all the problems in your life and help you — like they’re all making the same claims. I’m gonna help you lose weight, I’m gonna help you make money, I’m gonna help you get — find the love of your life or learn to pick up girls or whatever it is — there’s so much of — cause anyone could be a coach these days. So there’s a slight tangent, but I think it’s quite interesting and valuable. How do you think that — how do you go about finding a good coach?

Craig Ballantyne: You make a very fair point and it’s a fair assessment of the world today, however you should be able to find hours and hours of free content from people whether it’s from podcast or whether it’s through YouTube videos or whatever it is, I mean, there is just — there’s no — there’s almost no way to hide these days. And so right now if someone listening to this, you know, there’s gonna be that bell curve of people, you know, there’s gonna be that huge amount of people in the middle who are like, “Yeah this guy’s got some good information, but he doesn’t hit me in the gut.” And then there’s gonna be a few people who are like, “Yeah this guy hits me in the gut the wrong way. I don’t ever want to hear from this loser ever again,” and that’s totally fine because then, “Oh I got a way of life that I live and it’s not going to attract everyone.” But you repel those people to attract that 10% at the top. There’s gonna be 10% of people who are gonna go, “I got to get to Lithuania for the Blacksmith Camp and learn from this guy.” If they’re — if you’re younger or if you’re older you’re like, “I gotta investigate this guy more. I got to read his book, I got to and check out Early to Rise, I got to do X, Y, Z, you know, if I’m in America I’m gonna find one of his seminars — where ever he’s speaking and I’m gonna go and learn more from this guy because this guy is my guy.” And so I think that, you know, if you’re a coach yourself or if you’re someone who — well if you coach yourself you should be going and trying to get your message out as — every where you can. I mean I’ve been interviewed over 50 times this year. Health has helped me communicate my message better, but it’s also allowed me to get in front of people and show them that I can help them. And then if you’re a student looking for a coach you should find everything you possibly can about somebody who’s, you know, kind of tickled your fancy a little bit, who’s got a little bit of interest from you, you know, if somebody got on your list, John, a referral from somebody else, they should listen to dozens of your podcasts to see if this person is right for you. And I mean it’s very much like dating. I we’re gonna kiss a few dragons before we find our princess, but that’s how —

John McIntyre: [Laughter.]

Craig Ballantyne: — things should work, you know? And last thing I’ll say is you should ask around people that you respect and say, “Who would you refer me to if you were in my situation looking for a coach at my age, my experience, my goals?” you know, “Who should I go to?” and you should ask for referrals because that’s really one of the best ways especially to become wealthier — to actually find people that you can trust and that is, you know, among affluent people — they generally get their advisers, their coaches through referrals so, you should start that process pretty soon.

John McIntyre: Point worth pointing out too like I think in the — especially in the marketing world there can be a bit of like a — bit of hurrah that gets around and to this benefit, I think, it’s almost sort of — especially when you’re a beginner, it can be hard to see through the noise where you, you know, you don’t know — you don’t really have the expertise yet to see through the claims that different people have and it’s —

Craig Ballantyne: That’s a great point.

John McIntyre: Yeah so I reckon, you know, and there’s a lot of like, you know, sleazy, scammy, sort of people at it that don’t really — it’s like they, you know, business coach you’ve never really built a business and the best way to probably get through that is to go and find people who aren’t in that world who have a, you know, a normal business or an e-commerce business, something outside the internet marketing, info product world, for example. Find someone from out of that and ask them for feedback and what they think of this person’s, you know, branding or image or whatever it is. Cause they’ll probably be a pretty objective sounding board.

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah, I mean, I would just definitely get into the world as well of past clients, you know, and ask for referrals or references. If you — if you’re gonna invest $1,000 a month or more, you should be able to go the coach and say, “Listen, I would love to speak to two or three of your past clients.” And you know, as someone who runs mastermind groups, I would have no hesitation of sending you to people — not only who have had success in my groups, but to send you to the people who dropped out after one or two months or six months because people do. I mean not everybody joins my mastermind group becomes a millionaire, but there are some that become, you know, multi-millionaires and there’s some people who have been with us for four — five years and we, you know, we’re — we got nothing to hide. And it’s those people who do hide — have something to hide — who don’t act congruent with their image at all times that — those are the people you want to avoid. And that’s why you start with just a seminar first. Don’t go directly into somebody’s coaching program. Go to one of their seminars. Try and see how they act around the hotel staff. Try and see how they act around other people. And if they don’t strike you as sharing the same values as you then no matter how great they are at marketing you — you’ll probably won’t be a great long term fit. And so, yes, you could still learn marketing from them, but they probably got courses on that and you would avoid them as a coach because there’s more to coaching than just the tactics. There’s so much more about — listen at the end of the day you can take my tactics and — but you’re still gonna have those days where you swing and miss. And when you swing and miss am I going to be there for you to raise your spirits? And that’s what coaching — there’s an art and science of it and so, science of tactics, but there’s also the art of making sure that you take care of the person as a whole.

John McIntyre: Totally, totally. And on that note I reckon we should probably talk about Blacksmith Camp probably at the end. So drop an open loop for them.

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah.

John McIntyre: The — but we can talk about that at the end and who that’s for. So let’s move on then to The Perfect Day Formula. Tell me about the book, what it’s, you know; what it’s about, you know, what made you write it? Let’s start —

Craig Ballantyne: Well, I mean, it’s — yeah. I mean it’s a compendium of everything that I’ve used over the years and I’ve used with so many of my coaching clients. To help them get more done, make more money, but also, most importantly, to have more freedom in their life. And so we help them put a lot of structure into their day and so, for some people they want to resist my idea of structure, structure, structure in the day, but we’re only doing this so that you have more freedom in your evenings for your family or for your hobbies or, you know, to live where ever you want because you’ve gotten so much done during the days. And so it’s people that are proactive are really gonna love the book. People that just want to react to the world. You know those people struggle and they’re gonna either take a lot from the book and say, “Oh I get it, now I can really fix my day,” or they’re just gonna reject everything I say which, again, is fine. I don’t expect everyone in the world to love what I say because it is very structured, but essentially it helps people find when they’re most productive. It helps people block that time, it helps people really focus on their days and really control the chaos that the world brings at them so they can concentrate on what counts whether it’s at night or on the weekends or in the morning. So if they have more free time and freedom in their life.

John McIntyre: Right. And then one of the guys that I’m a big fan of on Instagram is The Rock, Dwayne Johnson. You know the guy, right?

Craig Ballantyne: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John McIntyre: He posts these photos every — he hasn’t — I don’t think he’s done it in a while, but he — every now and then he posts a photo of it’s — you know 4am or 3:45 am and he’s alarms going off and he’s — then he’s got like an Instagram status update about how, you know, let’s wake up and chase our goals and chase our greatness blah, blah, blah. And it’s really cool like ah you know I like that — I like the hustle that he has with that, that  he’s up at  4am. And from what I understand that’s when he’s — has to be on set say at 7 am, he’s waking up so he — like do basically a weight workout, go and eat some carbs, and then do a cardio workout or something like that. Then he goes onto the set and probably works 12 to 14 hours acting. So there’s something really cool about that, but I think from memory you are — you actually wake up something — some time around then as well at 4 or 4:30.

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah I get up at — I start work every day at 4 ‘o clock so, you know, I — what I found, and I talked about it in my book, is there’s something called magic time and everyone has magic time and — when do you work, John? Are you a night owl worker? Like when do you just crank out your emails like you’re a magician?

John McIntyre: Right, I mean, right now I’m in this flex. I’m trying to figure some of this out. I was waking up at — I was doing 4:15 am for a month or two in — when I was in Berlin.

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah.

John McIntyre: But that — it burnt out and I don’t think it was the 4:15 was the problem, I think it wasn’t being disciplined — I was drinking too much coffee. So basically that was —

Craig Ballantyne: Hah.

John McIntyre: — screwing the whole thing up so, that worked pretty well, but then the downside of that was that if I want to go out, you know, have a social — it felt like you wanted to have a social life — go out, you know, with a girl or go dancing or something like that. I couldn’t really do that cause I had to be in bed by 8 which it had it’s own downside. So then now I’ve been testing no alarm at all, but you know I’m sort of — I can just go on sleeping. So I’ll wake up at 10 am and that’s not really conducive to getting that much done cause you feel like you’re already behind when you wake up so —

Craig Ballantyne: Right that’s — I felt when I was, you know, in about 2007 when I was able to go from being from a personal trainer to, you know, being a full time online fitness guy and, you know, I was starting — I was like, “Okay I don’t have to get up and train people really early in the morning,” so I was getting up late, you know? Air quotes around that. It’s 7:30 in the morning, but I’d felt I was always chasing the tail of the world. And so I realised I need to get up early, just personally, for me I love the spirituality of the morning when I’m the only person up. It’s just amazing to me. And so that’s when I get my most work done — most of my work done. Now going back to the social aspect I do believe in keeping a regular wake up time and a regular bedtime, but you know last week I was just in Las Vegas for a mastermind meeting and there’s no way that you — you know first of all you’re gonna be social with the members. And plus there’s plenty to do in that town so, I don’t — I recommend trying to stick to your wake up as close as possible. So even if you stay out ’til midnight, you know, not — and you regularly get up at 4:30 don’t sleep past 6 ‘o clock in the morning. I know it’s only a few hours of sleep, but you know have a nap later on, but you don’t want to get too far away from your wake up time. Your wake up time is one of the most important things you can stick to. So you stay up a couple of hours late, and that’s fine, try not to overdo it too much. And obviously people that are listening, you know, don’t drink too much alcohol on too many nights. And so you stick to that wake up time, you have some naps, and that will give you a lot of all day energy and so, going all the way back to your original question, I do get up — I start work at 4 in the morning because I get 3 times as much work done in my magic time, which is in the morning, than I do at any other time of day. And everyone has magic time whether it’s 2 ‘o clock in the afternoon or whether it’s like my friend, Joe Marion, who has it at, you know, midnight and he gets 3 times as much done then as if he would try to do it at 10 am. So everyone has it, everyone should find it, everyone should protect it, and then build your structure around that as much as possible, you know, with considerations of if you have a regular work job or if you have family stuff you have, family stuff you have to be around with. But everyone can do that. And so going back to The Rock, there’s another guy named Jocko Willink who has a book out and he has something, I think, like the 4:45 am club. And then there’s another guy who — Robin Sharma who has the 5 am club and there’s a lot of people who are like me — about getting up in the morning because if you get up in the morning there’s nobody there stealing your time. And when the world — when your life is so busy that’s what you have to do in some cases especially if you have a priority project. If you want to write a book — if you want to write a sales letter, and you try to do it during the normal work hours, there’s just too much stuff going on and no matter how disciplined we are it’s very, very difficult for us to overcome the phone calls, the emails, the people running into your office with their pants on fire, the — you know what they think is their pants on fire. Even though it’s not an emergency, but you know they think the end of the world is coming because, you know, some — something happened, they got a phone call. You know so, all that stuff happens during your regular workday so, you either have to do it first thing in the morning or you have to do it at night. And there’s this, you know, then there’s too many social calls in the evening for most people to stick to it at night so that’s why I get up in the morning — that’s why I think most people should get up in the morning and, you know, have that quiet time and make massive progress on their big goals.

John McIntyre: Yeah, I mean, that was the feeling I had in Berlin until the — too much coffee is only go — overload the adrenals. The feeling of like being up at — cause I’d start at — I’d wake up at 4:15 then I do sort of a morning routine of meditation and few things like that —

Craig Ballantyne: Yup.

John McIntyre: — and I’d start work at 5. And the whole idea was I’d do 4 and a half hours of focused work so, priority — whatever the priority goal was for 4 and a half hours — no email, nothing like that. It was meant to be primarily creative. And then at 9:30 I would stop and go to the gym. And it’s — it was great cause I’d be walking to the gym, which was 5 or 10 minutes away from the place I was staying and everyone else is on their way to work and I’ve already gotten done more than most people — more than what I would get done in a whole work day or several work days and it’s 9:30 am. And that’s a cool feeling.

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah I know that feeling. Oh man that’s a great feeling.

John McIntyre: It’s addictive though like it started to get to a — like I started to think more about the tradeoffs it’s like you keep pushing it back — you could then go to 4 or 3:30. Cause what time — cause if you start work at 4, what time do you get up?

Craig Ballantyne: I like to get up about quarter to 4 and then I do my meditation after I’ve written for a while so, I don’t let — because I know, I mean, I’m a weak person and that’s what I have these — this structure in place because I’m as tempted and distracted as anyone else. So that’s why I go, you know the night before? I have the outline created; I put my subconscious to work at night which I actually truly believe in. I think that you can have your brain work while you sleep so that when you sit down in front of your screen or piece of paper that you can pour thoughts out better than if you did not go through this little subconscious programming at night. And so that’s what I do and, you know, the first hour I get, like I said, the magic time — 3 times as much done in any other time of day and so, if nothing else happened over the course of the day, John? No one can take that victory of that first hour away from me and that — but then after I do that I go into meditation and then I go to the gym and then I actually — when I’m in Denver here I have to spend a full day in the office with a lot of meetings because we’ve grown our team up and our marketing team and we actually do a lot of meetings. So there’s no way I would get all that writing done unless I did it first thing.

John McIntyre: Right, right so you’re thing is you wake up and then at 4 — you at 4, right? 3:45 you’re up, 4 you start —

Craig Ballantyne: Yes.

John McIntyre: — and you’ll write for an hour and then you meditate?

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah.

John McIntyre: Yeah and then off to the gym and then the day kicks in. The reason why I like to focus on this is this — like the waking up early is like step — it’s probably one of the hardest steps, but it’s also the most essential because if you could get this down the rest of the — all the other stuff of organizing your routine and staying off social media and everything like that — a lot of that becomes a lot easier when you win the morning.

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah, absolutely and so, really great example is, you know, Russell Brunson got a copy of my book and my — the kit that comes with my book — so I have a kit that I actually, you know, people can invest in this kit with all these work tools and stuff. And so Russell was, you know, he was getting up to like 8 or 9 before he read my book and, you know, then he was going into the office and he never felt like he was getting time to work on his click funnels which is his business. So he read my book and he said to his wife, “I’m gonna start going to bed at 10, getting up at 5 and writing for two hours on these funnels.” And he did an entire podcast on this. I think his podcast is called like “Marketing in The Car” or something and, you know, out of nowhere he just did this amazing testimonial about using my system. Now he’s getting up and doing 2 hours of work saying the exact same thing that you and I have said here John that, you know, he’s got more work done in those 2 hours than he would all day and he gets into the office and, you know, he’s on this role. And even though the rest of his day in the office is spent on the phone or with team members and all that stuff, he’s gotten his click funnels done, and he just had an amazing story about it and so you’re very right. And what it comes down to is not getting up in the morning, but getting to bed on time and in the right environment so that you can get up on time. And if you were doing it for 4 am you know you’ve probably got a great routine. I’d love to hear about it.

John McIntyre: [Laughter] right now I’ve just got back to Thailand so, I’ve relaxed the routine for a while just to experiment with some things, but back then there was a realization. It’s like yeah you could use some self discipline to wake up, you know, after 4 hours sleep or 6 hours sleep, but that’s not sustainable. The whole battle is really won when you go — it’s totally when you go to bed. Like the mood you’re in — are you gonna fall asleep quickly or have you been, you know, on YouTube until, you know, you’re looking at the bright screen until too late at night. You’ve really gave —

Craig Ballantyne: Right.

John McIntyre: — me — you have to be disciplined about the night before. That’s what really sets up the morning.

Craig Ballantyne: Absolutely. And it’s — I’ve written a chapter in the book called the “10-3-21-1-0 Formula”  and I’ll explain it in a second, but you know that — I posted an excerpt of that online and it’s gone viral because it just speaks to so many people. So we’ve had it on the In England it was picked up there, it was picked up by inc [?], it was picked up by Lifehacker, and we’ve had hundreds of thousands of people to our website from this article. And then I was actually even interviewed on Russian television about it.

John McIntyre: Wow!

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah, I mean, it’s just —

John McIntyre: Did you speak Russian?

Craig Ballantyne: — it speaks — I didn’t. They dubbed it over.

John McIntyre: [Laughter].

Craig Ballantyne: And then we have — we have a girl, I don’t know if you ever met her? A sous chef from — that I met at the Blacksmith Camp back in 2010. She went and listened to it and said they kind of screwed up some of the stuff because she speaks Russian. And she translated it, but it was funny. I just did this little video and then sent it over to this person who contact me on Facebook from Russia and it’s on Russian national television, but again, it’s because it speaks to so many people and it’s such a problem that so many people have. And so the “10-3-2-1-0 Formula” goes like this: 10 hours before bed you stop drinking all caffeine. So, you know, you found out the hard way about that one, unless you’re ballsack who drank 50 cups of coffee a day and, you know, kept to strange hours, but you know it’s — no more caffeine after — 10 hours before bed because the half life of caffeine is about 10 hours. So if you stop drinking caffeine there’s still some in your blood 10 hours later, but it’s not enough to generally keep you up. So — and then for me, personally, I just can’t handle much caffeine at all so I stop drinking caffeine about 14 hours before I go to bed. The 3 is to stop drinking alcohol or having heavy meals 3 hours before bed which means some people might have to be afternoon drinkers.

John McIntyre: [Laughter].

Craig Ballantyne: Which is okay, but — you know? They drink on the patio and then — but the thing is, you know, people do feel sleepy after they’ve had a little bit of alcohol, but the problem is it interrupts your sleep cycles. And I’m a big believer in the 90 minute sleep cycle — the power of the 90 minute sleep cycle. And so science shows that we go through these 90 minute phases while we’re asleep and so, if I wake up after 6 hours of sleep and my alarm is set to go off in an hour I actually  won’t go back to sleep because that would mean I would get half way through another sleep cycle. And if you wake up through a — half way through a sleep cycle you’re actually groggier than if you would be if you got up at 6 hours and have an hour less sleep. And then you try to have a little nap later on. So I’m a big fan of that, but alcohol does interfere with those sleep cycles and so, you wake up — even if you know you have like 2 or 3 glasses of wine an hour before bed and you wake up and you’re kind of like stuffy and kinda groggy the next morning even if you get 7 or 8 hours of sleep. And it’s because the alcohol interferes with that. So 2 hours before bed stop all work, an hour before bed stop the screens. So no blue light screens which are iPhones, laptops, and some televisions. You can get glasses actually that stop and block the light — the blue light that keeps you alert, but if you just look at your iPhone in bed right before you go to sleep the light from that keeps us alert and, you know, you toss and turn in bed all night. So that’s the 1 hour rule. And then 0 is the number of times that you should hit snooze in the morning because, again, it goes to that sleep cycle. Yeah, I know, I mean easier said than done, but with practice you can do it. I mean I’m probably 10, 15 years older than you, John, so when I was your age I wasn’t even as good as you are with the habits. So I rejected a lot of this information and I wish I hadn’t, but now I don’t hit the snooze button. I just get up because I know if I go back in to 10 minutes of sleep, again, you’re into the sleep cycle and you’re gonna wake up groggier than if you had just gotten out of bed at that first alarm. So, you know, some situ — you know ideas if you sleep alone. Some of the time or all of the time you can put the alarm across the room or — I actually have my alarm outside of my room when I’m travelling — outside or sorry — really across the room when I’m travelling. If I’m sleeping alone at home then I have it outside the bedroom so that I actually have to get up, walk across the room, and by then you’re just not going back to bed. Another thing is you can get one of the light alarms. So Philips is a company that makes them and you can set it so that it just gradually increases the light in the room so it’s like waking up naturally. You can buy those on Amazon and those are another way that people are using to have less of a harsh awakening in the morning.

John McIntyre: Right. I mean it’s — this is what I’m trying to experiment with at the moment because in Berlin it was great to do the, you know, waking up at 4:15 or whatever it was. That was fantastic, but then yeah I found that it wasn’t — I mean that’s quite early so I felt like it wasn’t that sustainable with going out, but it also that the wake up time’s — becomes — it starts to feel very, very abrupt sometimes. And so I’ve experimented with the 90 minute cycles and I think there’s like an iPhone app where it tracks your sleep cycle and then tries to wake you up when you’re at the light stage of sleep, but that —

Craig Ballantyne: Okay.

John McIntyre: Yeah.

Craig Ballantyne: I don’t know that app, but I’d love to — if you find the name of that I’d love to hear about that cause I think sleep is very important and you know I would say for a young man like you try and aim for like a, you know, 10 to 5:30 or if you wake up at 4 ‘o clock or 4:30, you know, just get out of bed then, but you know 10 to 5:30 you’re still up before 6. I think there’s still something really fantastic about that. You’re still up before most people are going about their day. It’s not inhuman, you know, to get up at 5:30 as a young man. I mean a lot of construction workers do that. So a lot of people are doing that during the week. And then on the weekend you relax things a little bit, but not ’til you’re sleeping ’til 10 ‘o clock in the morning. And really, you know, using the meditation is also, from what I’ve talked to some Doctors say that if you meditate for 20 minutes it’s almost like having a 20 minute nap or even an hour of sleep and then you can have an afternoon nap of 20 minutes and collectively even if you only sleep 6 and a half hours a night it adds up to being the same amount of rest. And you know you should try and get 7 or 8 hours of sleep, but I think that a young, ambitious man who still wants to have a good social life, but also take advantage in the morning would do well on a 10 to 5:30 schedule.

John McIntyre: Interesting. I mean this brings up another issue that I’ve kinda wrestled with a bit. It’s like how much like sleep do I need? Because some days it’s like, you know, 9 hours isn’t enough and then other days I can have 6 hours and I’m like — I’m up like a rocket in the morning. And so I’m still toned, I seriously go up and down depending on exercise. Right now I lift 4 days a week and so, I’m not sure if 7 and a half — sometimes it feels like it’s fine, sometimes it feels like it’s too little. How have you train — you know figured out how much sleep you need?

Craig Ballantyne: I have to force myself to sleep cause I can sleep, you know, 6 hours and you know have days go about me. Days go by before I feel tired and I — but I know that’s not right, I shouldn’t give in to that temptation of cutting back on the sleep so, I force myself to make sure that I get — go to bed early on some nights or to have the nap and I try and — I would say I average 7. I wish I was averaging more like 7 and a half or 8, but I’m doing pretty well when I get an average of 7.

John McIntyre: That’s so interesting. I find this fascinating how some people are like that. There’s a girl who goes to the local salsa dancing I’ve been going to here and she just wakes up — she doesn’t use an alarm which I think is really cool. And so I was like, “Oh I want to try that.” Now she wakes up at 6 cause her pets come and wake her up. And I think if she just wake up at 6 she’s one of those people anyway. If I —

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah.

John McIntyre: — don’t use an alarm I’m waking up at like 8:30 — 9. Starts to get — seems to get a bit later each day, cause each day I wake up late then I stay up a little bit later the next night, then I wake up a bit later the next day and it creates this — eventually it’s like 11 and it’s [laughter] what’s going on and this isn’t — you can’t live like this.

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah that’s very interesting.

John McIntyre: So it’s — it is fascinating to me how different people — you, you know, you talk about you can get, you know, for days on 6 hours and not feel tired. If I had 6 hours usually now, yeah, I’d — depends on the day, but most the time if I had 6 hours I’d be pretty tired. I’d —

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah, you know, then there’s the thing, John, is well, you know, someone’s 8 hours can be actually worse than someone’s, you know, 6 and a half hours, right? Because of the quality of sleep, you know, the noise and all that sort of thing. So there’s other things that people should make sure that they’re doing at night, you know, 65 degrees Fahrenheit temperature in their room. You know blacked out and no light getting in. I sleep with earplugs and an eye mask like an old lady, you know?

John McIntyre: [Laughter].

Craig Ballantyne: But I mean the earplugs have been a lifesaver especially in the hotels. And same with, you know, you go to hotels and they got these little green lights up in the ceiling and you always —

John McIntyre: Oh I hate that.

Craig Ballantyne: — and, you know, so the eye mask, as silly as it is, it’s really, really been a fantastic little tool. So I have eye mask, I have earplugs, I use this sprayable melatonin which is a company from the Blacksmith Camp that I invested in. So I use sprayable melatonin a couple hours before bed, magnesium before bed, and you know I just get a little dialled in sleeping routine. And I travel a lot so I done this because I travel a lot and I want to adjust as quickly as possible between going to different time zones. And so there’s an art and science to it, there’s great books out on it. A friend of mine, Shawn Stevenson, just wrote a book for Rodale Press which is a company that publishes Men’s Health and he has a book called “Sleep Smarter”. He has about 300 5 star reviews on Amazon. So if you want to get the ultimate bible in sleeping get that book and you’ll learn about dialling that in. Because sleep is so important and it’s not just how we feel, John, it goes back to — you know you were talking about training, you know, if you want to recover properly from training that’s when you have to get that extra sleep. And so that’s why even if I can feel fine on 6 I know that mentally and physically my body and brain need the recovery of 8 hour sleep. And I definitely feel different when I get 8 hours sleep compared to 6, you know? I don’t feel like I need caffeine if I’ve slept 8 hours.

John McIntyre: Right you can notice it in the gym too. When I was in, I think couple of days ago, I had one of those big sleep ins and I went in the gym and I just felt so — just don’t feel worn out. It’s like you’ve had, you know, two coffees before you into the gym and everything’s just working except —

Craig Ballantyne: Yup.

John McIntyre: — that I hadn’t any coffee. So —

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah.

John McIntyre: — and on the lights down here it’s funny like I’m — noises don’t do that much, like I’m very — I’m a musician so I think I’m sensitive to noise, but some reason not while I’m sleeping.

Craig Ballantyne: Right.

John McIntyre: But I hate lights. So like if I’m lying in bed and there’s that little red light or green light on the TV I — unless I have an eye mask, I’ll usually try and — I have to cover it up.

Craig Ballantyne: Right.

John McIntyre: I’ll have to get sticky tape, a bit of paper —

Craig Ballantyne: Right.

John McIntyre: — the same thing on the AC.

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah. It’s funny my friend, Bedros Keuilian, I was just with him in Vegas on the weekend. He’s a really great marketer, he’s got a great YouTube videos on mindset, but Bedros was thinking of buying a house beside the ocean where he surfs in California. And so they went down and they rented a house there and he could not sleep, for the life of him, at night with the waves coming in. You know some people love that white noise, the fan, whatever it is, but he’s the opposite. You know he’s the opposite of you and so, they decided they would only buy a house on the other side of the street where they couldn’t hear the waves coming in. So everyone has their own little sleep things, you know, some people like to be really cold, some people can’t sleep unless it’s warm, and you just have to figure it out and make a routine out of it because this is what allows you to have amazing mornings and get stuff done. And if you’re dragging your tail every morning you’re gonna have a hard time getting ahead in life. I mean that’s just the bottom line as far as I can see.

John McIntyre: All right so let’s move sort of further on into that. The “Perfect Day Formula” what — you mentioned the — there’s a 10-8-3-2-0 rule and then, you know, what else is there to it? I know you’ve got the “5 Pillars.” What do you think would be — what else really, really matters?

Craig Ballantyne: Well I think the “5 Pillars” are very helpful for anybody looking to make a change in their life. Because I actually discovered these from my weight loss transformation clients so, in my fitness business I’ve run 25 before and after contests. So we’ve been doing this since 2008 and we have 4 categories in each one. So we’ve had about 100 winners in this contest and they have to submit this little 200 or 300 word essay, I guess you would call it, and every time I would read them the people who won had 5 common pillars in place. And the people who dropped out after 2 weeks, I take a look at their entries in the form that we keep, and I’d realize that some of these pillars were missing. And so the “5 Pillars” work, not just for losing weight, but they’ll work for anything. If you want to become a better copywriter they’ll work for that. If you want to get out of debt it’ll work for that. If you want to make more money, if you want to find the love of your life, if you want to buy the house of your dreams these 5 pillars work for everything because you can implement them this way. And so they go like this: better planning and preparation is pillar number 1, pillar number 2 is professional accountability, pillar number 3 is positive social support, pillar number 4 is a meaningful incentive, and pillar number 5 is the big deadline. And you can just, you know, pull a topic out of a hat, John, and I could show you it’ll work for anything.

John McIntyre: I mean one thing that I — sort of on my list of questions to ask you about this was it’s — like we’re often used to thinking about this stuff in terms of let’s lose weight, let’s make money, let’s get a partner and I’ve been doing some — I guess you could say — recently I read a book called “The Surrender Experiment” which, as the title implies, the guy just decides to surrender to life. Gives up his preferences and gives up his goals and if someone comes up to him and says hey, you know, can you help me do this? He’d just say yes even if he didn’t want to and that was the way he started to live. And so it’s made me start to think about where do our goals come from? Like why is it that we, you know, not — it’s fine to want to lose weight or it’s fine to want to make money and all these things — the great things in life, but a lot of the — well I don’t know, maybe a — some of the time, at least, these are driven by these needs and we wanna be someone or — driven by sort of an egoist need or a, you know, insecurity in us where there is — there’s also goals that might come from a desire to express ourselves. Like I’ve been thinking about this, it’s a bit like dancing. When you’re dancing you’re not really trying to get to the end of the song, you dance to express some kind of sort of energy or something inside you. It’s not to do anything other than to simply express that. And so this is where it’s interesting is what I wanted to ask was why or how do you come up with these, I don’t know, you might not even think this matters, but how do you figure out what to do? So what to apply these 5 pillars to? Cause you got to apply it to something that’s driven by this, “Oh I feel bad about myself so I’m gonna lose weight,” but if you don’t fix the core underlying emotional issue — losing the weight may or may not help. If you’re not — do you understand what I mean?

Craig Ballantyne: Absolutely. So I’m gonna answer that in two ways. First of all, you know, we’ll talk about that meaningful incentive. And so people at the start of the year, in most cases, they’ll say, “Oh I want to lose 10 pounds this year.” And that — combined with that time of year will get you through the first 2 weeks, right? You know 2 weeks of you’ll have motivation enough to do almost anything, but because it’s just this goal of losing 10 pounds it doesn’t really mean anything to somebody. And so that’s when people drop out. Now how do we figure out what really matters? And that comes down to what season of life you are in. And I learned this from a good friend of mine whose name is Luciano Del Monte who — he’s a pastor and the father of Vince Del Monte who, you know, has sold a lot of information about building muscle on the internet. So Vince’s dad, Luciano, said to me, “Craig people are in a season of life and what that means is we need to go and take a look at our priorities in life and figure out whether we’re in a season of health, wealth, family or personal development.” And so, for example, if someone is 55 years old and listening to this interview and they’ve built a nice career and they’re kids are off to college and they’re relationship is good they’ve probably let their health go. And so, you know, they’re 20 pounds overweight, they got, you know, pre-diabetes — something like that. They’re in a season of health and so, they need to wake up. And instead of writing or doing whatever you and I do first thing in the morning they need to focus on their health. So it might be preparing meals, that might be getting some exercise, and so that person is in a season of health. They’re gonna build their goals around that, they’ve got a meaningful incentive and it’s also gonna help them build their vision for their life. And so that’s one example. Now someone else, who might be closer to your age John, who might have a fiancé, who might say, “Oh we’re gonna start a family in 2 years,” that person’s gonna be in a season of wealth building because they need to go and make money to buy the house, to take care of the kids, take care of their spouses, gonna be awful work for a couple months. So that person needs to be focused. Number one priority — get up and make money whether it’s figuring out what to say on sales calls or to, you know, get new clients or to do whatever it is they need to be making money. Now they’re not gonna let their relationships suffer, they’re not gonna let their health suffer, but they’re gonna be put off to the side a little bit as they focus on their wealth building priority. And they’re gonna build a meaningful incentive around that. And then someone who’s my mom’s age, you know, she’s got her kids out of the house, you know, she’s financially secure, she’s got her health — doing well enough. And so she is in this phase of volunteering and helping other people. And so she’s gonna get up first thing in the morning and after she has breakfast she’s gonna, you know, organize her volunteering schedule and check in with all the people that are supposed to be doing the volunteering, you know, taking this shift and that shift. And so everyone’s in a season of life and they’re gonna build their 5 Pillars around that, they’re gonna build their rules for living around that, they’re gonna build their structure for sleeping around that, they’re gonna build their vision for their life around what season of life they are in right now.

John McIntyre: I really like that. I’ve read a lot about this topic and I haven’t heard someone say it like that. I mean the hard thing, I think, is like these days — I’m just reading a book right now by Cal Newport called “Deep Work” and he mentions this a lot.

Craig Ballantyne: Oh yeah.

John McIntyre: You’ve read it, yeah?

Craig Ballantyne: Well I’m a big fan of Cal and he’s like the angel on your shoulder where it’s like, you know, or maybe not an angel on your shoulder, but I mean that’s the kind of guy you would look to as — I would call him a virtual mentor. Like what would Cal do? You know like right now, would he be, you know, how would he focus and I look to him as a role model. I’ve never interacted with him. We do publish his stuff at Early to Rise because it is such great thinking. And I do take a lot of inspiration from it, but sorry to interrupt on that.

John McIntyre: No, no it’s fine. He mentions this idea of like social media especially Facebook. So I probably spend, I don’t know exactly how much right now, but I — social — Facebook’s probably the main social media site I’m on — probably for most people. And the challenge with these sites is that we spend all day being, hopefully not all day, but big part of the day being bombarded with this image just of how great everyone else’s life is whether they’re losing weight or they’re getting married, they’re having a kid, they’re doing volunteering. And so one of the challenges that — and it’s not just that. It’s also — today with the amount of opportunities, you know, could be career opportunities, could be different diets we could go on, do we wanna, you know, if you’re guard you wanna bulk up. Do you want to get lean; do you wanna get, you know, really big like a body builder? You just wanna get kinda, you know, more like just athletic. There’s all these options that we have and plus it’s compounded by social media where all these other cool things that people are doing and so, we’re being, you know, hit by these fummel [?], fear of missing out, and so that’s part of the challenge, I think, is figuring out what do you actually want versus what do you just think you want because, well, you know would be cool to be as ripped as that friend of yours. You know be married and having that baby like that — those friends or whatever.

Craig Ballantyne: Absolutely and so, John, to go back to the inspiration for my book, it’s based on stoic philosophy on Epictetus and the teachings he has. And it’s actually built on what I call the “3 C Formulas”. I interpreted his teachings which is control what you can, cope with what you can’t, and concentrate on what counts. So we control our mornings, we cope with the chaos of the world in the afternoon with the 5 Pillars and we concentrate on what counts in the evening with our vision. And so, you know, I’m a big fan of just cutting things. I mean I just can’t, you know, keep up with everything in the world. Eventually you have to draw the line somewhere. I mean you can’t have 9,000 friends on Facebook and keep up with all of them. You have to decide which ones are gonna be most important to you and which ones you’re gonna keep up with. And then you just kinda have to say, “You know what? I’m just have to let my interest in all these other people kinda wane because I literally can’t read Facebook updates from 900 people a day.” I mean you just can’t do that and get ahead in life. And there’s the quote from Warren Buffett that the difference between successful people and very successful people is that very successful people say no to almost everything. And so most people think of Warren Buffett, they see this old man at, you know, his annual event or they see him on TV a little bit. But he actually spends 90% of his work day reading. All he does is read annual reports from companies. And everyone thinks, “Oh he’s got this great life, he’s a billionaire,” he reads annual reports which is boring as saw dust 90% of his day because he knows what really matters. And so, you know, another example is like Michael Phelps. Everybody would like to have, you know, 16 gold medals or whatever he’s won, but nobody wants to spend 10 hours a day in the pool. But listen if you want to succeed you have to know where you’re line is, you have to know when enough is enough — so if you want to make $100,000 a year — you can have a much more leisurely life than somebody who wants to have an income of $1 million a year. You have to realize though at $100,000 a year that you’re gonna sacrifice things compared, I mean obviously it’s not a huge sacrifice — $100,000 a year, but you know rela — you know respective to the person who’s making $1 million you can’t be jealous of the fact they have a brand new Tesla and you don’t, you have a 5 year old car. And if you’re okay with that, you know, going back to the stoic philosophy, we can only control our thoughts, our words, and our deeds. So if somebody buys something we control whether we’re happy for them or whether we’re envious of them. And if you’re on social media it’s gonna be much, much more difficult to be able to overcome all the envy that is naturally, you know, inhuman. And so if you have all these things coming to you and bombarding you it’s gonna be tough to control your emotions. And so you have to just cut things off and you have to say, “Listen I’m gonna stay in touch with these 10 people, they are my core circle of 10 people. I’m just not gonna pay attention to all these other updates. I’m gonna contact them on a regular basis. I’m gonna stay in touch with other people — if somebody emails me I’m not gonna ignore them, but I just can’t, you know, be on social media 24 hours a day keeping up with 900 people. And I’m gonna dedicate 4 hours a day to writing because this is what I do. I have to get my message out there to the world and change people’s lives.” I mean you could go on in Facebook and go back and forth with somebody for 30 minutes or you could send, you know, write an article that could be read by 5,000 — 10,000 people. And so which makes a bigger impact on the world? And if that matters to you, making an impact on the world matters to you, then you should better spend that 30 minutes. And so really it comes down to what’s called “introspection”. Taking a look at your life objectively and figuring out what you’re doing. Right now is that the right thing for your right life, right now? And that’s the biggest decision you should be make — or the decision you should be making all day every day. Is this second coffee the right decision for my right life right now? Is this third glass of wine the right decision for my right life right now? Is going out salsa dancing ’til 11 ‘o clock at night the right decision for my right life right now? And in some cases darn right it’s gonna be! You know staying up ’til 4 ‘o clock in the morning when you’re 21 years old in a beach party in Thailand is the right decision for your right life. When you’re 35 years old it’s not — probably. And so you have to make these decisions properly at all the right times and you always have to be thinking about this and so, I’ve ranted and rambled on a lot here John.

John McIntyre: [Laughter].

Craig Ballantyne: I hope it’s given some clarity to people because I thought about this a lot. You know I’m a 41 year old guy so; I’ve got a little bit of — a few years on a lot of people listening to this. And I just want to say people use your time wisely no matter what age you’re at.

John McIntryre: Yeah, I mean, one thing I’ve been thinking about lately is this idea of tradeoffs and that we’re often not aware that we’re making each other [?]. When I was in Berlin I started thinking about, you know, I’m in Berlin spending a certain amount of money, you’re living in a certain type of place — all that. And, you know, I thought — I was saying, “Oh I’m choosing to be here it’s great. It’s —” what I wasn’t thinking about was all the other stuff I could’ve been doing which may or may not of been, you know, been something that I would’ve rather been doing or whatever. And so, okay, you know one of the things I sacrificed was coming back to Thailand, for example. So staying in Berlin meant sacrificing Thailand. Coming to Thailand meant sacrificing Berlin and obviously, you know, by just you going to Berlin or Thailand — I’m also sacrificing being in say Australia, from where I’m from.

Craig Ballantyne: Right.

John McIntyre: And so it’s interesting, you know, of choosing to have that third glass of wine than you were choosing not to have that early morning tomorrow when you feel great or if you’re choosing to skip the gym and watch TV, you choose — you know at the same time you’re making the choice not to be fit or to a, you know, to a road to your self-discipline and things like that. And we often don’t — we sort of put these tradeoffs out of our mind cause their uncomfortable in the moment, but it’s sort of through the introspection, that you mentioned, — when we think about it then we can make a proper decision about what we actually want to do cause we’ve sort of looked at the options, you know, squarely in the eye.

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah and one thing I’ll add to people, you know, this whole concept of a bucket list has become quite popular, but the bucket list is like the shotgun approach to life. I mean if you got 50 things on your bucket list you’re gonna be chasing these things — I mean do they really matter? Do you really need to go and bungee jump in New Zealand? I mean do really, really, really, really need to do that? I mean sure you could put it on your bucket list, but you know at the end of your life are you gonna die and you know be on your deathbed and think, “Oh man if I had only gone to New Zealand and bungee jumped,” no what you’re gonna think is, “You know there’s these core people, I wish I spent more time with.” That’s what most people are gonna think at the end of their life. “I wish I spent more time with these core people,” and maybe there was a couple of experiences they wished they had, but it’s not this 50 bucket list items. And so you got to cut back and cut back and cut back and say, “These are the things I’m gonna do in my life and these are the people I’m gonna spend my life with because this is what really matters to me.” And that’s what people need to do is tighten it up. I mean sure you should have some great experiences on there, but you need to tighten it up and so there’s not 41 things. It’s like people that set 30 goals for the year, you’re gonna do a poor job —

John McIntyre: [Laughter].

Craig Ballantyne: — on all 30 versus a person who has 3 goals. They’re gonna conquer all 3 and they’re gonna get better at 30 other things. And they’re gonna be at a much better place than the person who had 30 goals.

John McIntyre: Right. I feel like we could talk about this stuff forever, but we need to wrap it up.

Craig Ballantyne: I know, I know.

John McIntyre: Before we sort of do wrap it up let’s talk about Blacksmith Camp briefly. Tell me about that.

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah so Blacksmith Camp is where you and I met, John, it’s something that we are now on our seventh year. So we started this in 2010 I believe. It was started by my friend, Simon Black, from and my business partner here in Denver, Matt Smith, and we do this for young people generally between the ages of 18 and 30. We have 50 students, I think, every year from about 35 different countries. We teach them entrepreneurship, little bit of liberty talk — libertarian type politic talk. Basically just about helping people, your age John, get their freedom. Get their freedom in life, get out of the system, if they want to, realize that they don’t have to live in Podunk, Iowa or Ohio or where ever you grew up, that there’s a big world out there. You know we get people from Zimbabwe, Tajikistan, all these countries and a lot of people we never heard of. It’s — I mean you’ve built incredible relationships at the event you went to, right?

John McIntyre: I think it was amazing for the time and the place — cause you got to be under 25, right?

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah, I mean, we get it up to about 30 now, but I mean there’s just so many amazing people doing such amazing things — people that have sold tech companies at age 25, I mean, it blows my mind. It’s just unbelievable what kids, you know, and I say that affectionately. Kids these days are —

John McIntyre: [Laughter].

Craig Ballantyne: — and I mean I’ve — some of my dearest friends and some of my employees and business partners have come through the Blacksmith Camp and so, this year we’ve filled up the camp, but people can go to or and find out — watch the video, find out more about the camp. They can go to and learn more about Simon Black and if they want to meet amazing people and see other people who are just doing awesome things and who have that same freedom and success mindset then they should be there. So I do have to run John, but that’s what I’ll say about the camp and it just is my favourite part of the year because I love hanging around ambitious young people.

John McIntyre: Absolutely and me too. I think it’s one of the best places to go and build a peer group if you’re — just to be young upstart trying to go somewhere so, we’ll let’s call it here then. What — say if people want to learn more about you, learn about the book, where should they go and do that?

Craig Ballantyne: They can get the book on Amazon or they can get the full kit and watch a little video about it at and see all the amazing marketers and business owners that have used the kit to make more money and have more success in life. And it’s really fantastic there, and then they can join me at or

John McIntyre: Perfect. I’ll have links to all that in the shownotes at Craig thanks for coming on the show!

Craig Ballantyne: Yeah really great to speak with you again John. Hopefully we catch up again in person very soon.

The post Episode #137 – Craig Ballantyne on How To Own Your Day & Control Your Destiny (practical steps & advice) appeared first on McMethod.

Jun 15 2016



Rank #6: Episode #71 – Brendan Tully on The 4 Classic Email Marketing Mistakes Almost All E-Commerce Business Owners Make

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Calling ALL eCommerce business owners:

When’s the last time you checked your email marketing strategy?

Has recent success got you thinking it’s perfect?

Think again.

Whether you’ve recently strategized,

Or haven’t looked at it in ages (you know who you are),

Brendan Tully is here to show you 4 email marketing mistakes that –

Chances are…

…even YOU are making.

Email marketing generates up to 30% of an eCommerce store’s revenue.

Do you CAPITALIZE on that cash flow?

Or are you letting good money slip through your fingers.

These mistakes PROVE that you rob yourself of your OWN money.

Identify them –

And watch your conversion rates blast through the roof.

It’s not rocket science.

Any regular Joe can rack up sales with these golden insights.

Brendan’s worked with over 2,000 biz owners in the last 5 years.

He WANTS you to gain from his experience.

So quit being “regular eCommerce Joe”…

And notice that elephant in the room.

Simple tweaks produce MASSIVE results.

Brendan shows you WHAT they are…

…and HOW to fix them.

The money’s there.

Tune-in to make sure your eCommerce store gets all of it.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • a simple trick to remove friction from the sales process (less friction = more sales)
  • how to break the mold on your standard abandon cart email sequence to gain a deep connection with those cart ditchers
  • why offering discounts can actually hurt your conversion rates (and how to use them strategically)
  • how to avoid sounding needy in your abandon cart emails (ditch the hard sale and use this style of email instead)
  • effective insights to gain a long-term mindset that converts more sales than any discount ever offered
  • how to use all that header space to your advantage (use this info to gain an edge over your bigger competitors)
  • the crippling effects of a sub-par product page (ease the friction by infusing this into all your product descriptions)
  • how to reduce customer overhead with a simple maneuver you can implement today.
  • a bulletproof hack to write solid transactional, abandon cart, and other emails you need to convert more sales in your ecommerce business


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

Raw transcript:

Download PDF transcript here.

John McIntyre:Hey, it’s John McIntyre here, Autoresponder Guy, and it’s time for episode 71 of the McMethod Email Marketing Podcast where you get nitty – gritty techniques, tips and strategies to make more money in your business with email marketing, with sales funnels, with all those little conversion elements and marketing. Okay, now today I’ll be talking to a good friend of mine. His name is Brendan Tully.

He’s one of the most knowledgeable guys I know on e-commerce, so setting up an e-commerce store and more importantly, not so much for beginners, he really knows what he’s talking about, especially when it comes to helping people who already have an e-commerce store, helping them make more money with all these sort of little conversion hacks. He’s just built a product which I think is a fantastic product with just a basically a long list of simple steps that anyone can take who already has a store to increase their profitability and make more money and make more sales.

Today, we’re going to be talking about four classic email marketing mistakes. Now, the interesting thing here is that it’s a little bit controversial, not crazy controversial, but a little bit. The reason why is that I’ve done a couple of podcasts before with e-commerce email marketing experts, Ezra Firestone and X Wang. Now, they’ve mentioned things that Brendan sort of takes a different slant to. He goes off in a different direction. He has some interesting, compelling arguments for why he does so. 

Now, he’s a very known honest, down to earth Aussie guy, so you’ve got two Aussie accents in this show, in this episode not just one. Okay, to get the show on the road for this episode of the Email Marketing Podcast go to

Now, here is this week’s McMaster’s Insight of the Week, the DAT formula. Now, what is the DAT formula? I love formulas. First of all, before I tell you what the formula is, the reason why I love formulas like this is that it makes writing copy and it makes writing emails, it makes creating marketing pieces for your business really easy and really straightforward, so I’m a big believer in breaking things down into a formula or a framework. Whatever you want to call it, okay. Now, the DAT formula is like this: 

Number one, you describe the problem, all right? That’s step one. Step two is you agitate it, and step 3 is present your solution. Now, this, I introduced this DAT formula in one of the products inside McMasters in pages that convert because this is the simplest easiest way to write a great sales pitch for any sort of products your selling even if you’re trying to get someone to sign  up to your list. Anytime you want someone to take an action, the DAT formula is fantastic for it. 

Now, it’s a little bit finicky. When you describe the problem such as “Are you sick of being fat?” Then you agitate it, and then you start talking about, well, “Here’s why it sucks to be fat.” You’re trying to get them feel the pain of what it is like to be fat. Before you present your solution, instead of going like “Well, are you sick of being fat?” and then agitate it. “Well, here’s why it sucks being fat. You don’t have energy. You can’t run around with your kids.” Instead of them going, “Well, that’s where my product comes in.” 

Before you present your solution, you really need to present your solution in a general context, so you describe the problem: “Are you sick of being fat?” This is a very colloquial, casual example. “Are you being fat?” You agitate it by saying, “Well, now you don’t have energy. You can’t run around with your kids. You’re going to die early,” all this sort of stuff. You see what I’m doing? I’m just making them feel the pain of their problem. That’s all the agitation stage is about, okay? 

Then before I present my solution though, I’m going to say, “What if there was an easy, simple way to lose weight and get fit?” Alright, and the problem there’s tons of products out there that don’t work. You’ve tried pills. 

You’ve tried blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, so I sort of talk about the solution in a general way, before I actually present the actual solution, so I’m like: “What if there was a simple way to do things that didn’t involve dieting, that didn’t involve painful workouts and didn’t involve all of this stuff?” Then I go: “That’s where lose weight in 10 days — lose 10 pounds in 10 days comes in, my product.” Lose 10 pounds in 10 days is my simple step by step program on how to lose weight blah, blah, blah. 

The idea is you describe the problem, you agitate it, but before you present your specific solution, you need to describe the solution in sort of a general detail so that when you present your product so that it’s pre-framed as the ultimate solution. That’s a bit like saying you describe their problem, “Are they fat?”; you agitate it, “Here’s why it sucks to be fat …”; and then you might talk about “Well, there is a solution, but here’s the problem …” 

You go back to the problem: “The problem is with most solutions they don’t work because of X, Y and Z, and because they don’t work …” You agitate it again, so you’re going problem, agitate, and then the solution is obviously to buy a product on weight loss, but then there’s a new problem: “Most products suck. The reason why that’s bad is that then you go and spend money. You waste money and time, and you don’t get what you want,” so we’ve gone problem, agitate, solution, and then we’ve gone back to problem, different problem this time, that most products suck. We’ve agitated it, and then we present your solution which is: “That’s where my product comes in.” 

I think about it like that. I could probably come up with a 2X DAT formula, where you describe the problem, agitate, present a general solution, then describe the problem with the average solution then rinse and repeat the same formula, okay? That’s the problem I said that most people having with this formula, this problem, agitate, solution, is they go straight into their pitch, rather than talking about the solution in a general context of pre-framing, okay, so that’s this week McMasters Insight of the Week. 

This insight came from McMasters, obviously. McMasters is my private training community. There is a forum. There’s monthly webinars, several products inside the community, including the McIntyre method which is a four-week training program on how to write an autoresponder, so if you want to learn more about that, go to There is a link in the top header. Learn more about McMasters and find out how to join.

I’ve got one review and then we’ll get into this interview. This review is from Mr. Sean Markey. Sean says, “Five stars. Love it. Hey man, super love the show. Getting into the thick of things with my business and really starting to be able to use a lot of things that you teach in the show. Going to be joining your membership site soon, I suspect. Rock on.”

Well, Sean, I can’t wait to see you inside McMasters and we can jump on these training webinars and we can talk about these insights inside. Yeah, it would actually be cool to have you in there, man. Anyway, if you want to leave a review for the show, you will put a huge smile on my face and make me crack up like this when I forget what to say. 

Go to Itunes. Search for the McMethod Email Marketing Podcast and leave me your review. Tell me what you think. Good and bad, I’ll take it. Okay, now, let’s get into today’s interview with Mr. Brendan Tully and the four classic email, well, e-commerce email marketing mistakes. 

It’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder Guy, and I’m here with Brendan Tully. Now, Brendan’s a consultant who I actually met way back in Sydney about three years ago before I’d moved to the Philippines, before I knew anything about copywriting business, or any of that and had all of those starry stars in my eyes about what sort of lifestyle you can get from it. I found Brendan on this forum and we … you lived in Sydney at the time, as well, so we met up. We had a beer and a lunch or something like that, and I was telling you about content site that made 400 bucks a month, and Brendan told me that it wasn’t a business and … we just had a conversation about that. It just totally blew my mind.

Anyway, today, I thought I’d bring him on, he’s an e-commerce guy or a marketing consultant, but he’s got an e-commerce product coming out, a training product, which …. He’s just done a lot of cool e-commerce stuff and I’ve been through some of the product. While I’m not an e-commerce guy, it’s really actionable. Some of these screen shots, there’s just a lot of time put into this, so we’ll talk about that, but first, we’re going to talk about the four classic email marketing mistakes when it comes to e-commerce store owners. 

If you’ve heard the other podcast with, I think it was X Wang and Ezra Firestone, this is going to be a little bit more of a not so much controversial, but a bit of a different take, coming at it from a different angle which is … Brendan usually does this. I’ve seen him do this in forums where everyone’s coming out saying one thing, and then he goes, “Look guys, this isn’t how it works. This is how it works.” That’s what today’s going to be about. Anyway, we’ll get into that. Brendan, how are you doing? 

Brendan Tully:Yes, good mate, good mate. You make me sound like a grumpy old man. Come on. 

John McIntyre:Just flowing with it man. It’s like … with these intros, like I said, I don’t plan them out too much these days. It’s just see what comes to mind like get a bit of inspiration from the divine and see what comes out. 

Brendan Tully:Nice, I have some contrary viewpoints that I think often they’re very valid.

John McIntyre:I think they are, too, but are we bracketing this one in the rant tag like the … 

Brendan Tully:I don’t think it’s quite a rant, so yeah, I don’t think we need to put the rant tags around this one.

 John McIntyre:That’s a good one. All right, before we do that, I’ve kind of given you a sort of the JMac intro, how about you give a list sort of a background on who you are and what you do. 

Brendan Tully:Yeah, sure, so as you said, I run Home Marketing Consultants, so I run a consultancy called The Search Engine shop. It’s been around for five years, five and a half years; started in 2008. Before that, I actually ran an IT company for about eight years. We had 20-25 staff, and as well as owned a fairly sizable online store that back in the day, we actually acquired it for free. Then the first year, we took it from doing a 100k revenue a year to a million, and then in the second year, took it from doing a million to  6 and ½ million. It’s a long story, but we were fairly young at the time like 24-25 and had no idea how to manage that much cash flow and that many people and a business of that size.

 There’s a big division between growing a business and business growth, and completely uncontrolled explosive growth where you’re so out of your depth that the business has just outgrown you by a long way, so ultimately we ran out of cash and both businesses failed as a result.

 Other than that, I started doing online marketing stuff. I started getting a lot of calls from people asking about e-commerce and SEO’s. This was back in 2007 and 2008, and that’s how the Search Engine Shop started. I was very lucky in 2009 that with some friends, we won a government contract to do workshops and trainings for small business owners, so we’ve actually been doing those workshops for contractors. They enrolled in various forms for the last few years. I basically built the business on the back of those workshops. 

Over the last five years, I’ve worked with around through the workshops and one-on-one consulting and services with around 2,000 businesses and most of them, they’re probably broken down into three, [durasale 00:09:40] small business, bricks and mortar, retail kind of businesses, e-commerce businesses, and bigger corporate businesses and marketing departments. 

That’s the primary business of the Search Engine Shop. I’m actually in the process of taking the e-commerce bit out and splitting it out into its own brand called the Pareto E-commerce, so as you mentioned, we have a new product that we’re kind of in beta testing called the Pareto E-commerce Blueprint. What that is is basically the same consulting process that I run through with e-commerce clients in a DIY format because today a lot of people, e-commerce business owners are tech-savvy and can do the work themselves. They just need a bit of guidance and need to know what to do. 

John McIntyre:I went and took a look at it. I like the idea of just like a list of I don’t know how many tweaks it was when I checked it out, but just a long list of here’s call up your bank and ask for a, I think it was a cheaper rate on the processing and then it was like just do this and just do this and then just do this. It was kind of cool. It was just a list of actions that you could take. Someone could sign up and just go through them and I don’t know, aim to set up one of those things once a week or something, and by the end of the year, you’d have a much more profitable store than you did at the start.

Brendan Tully:Yeah, absolutely. Like a lot of it, there’s no rocket science, and a lot of its common sense. It’s kind of like those things that people just forget about or they ignore or it’s not on their radar, so I have four things to talk about today, classic email marketing mistakes that e-commerce business owners make. 

I think a lot of these come from people reading a lot of blog posts online and just following the general wisdom that’s out there on the internet that’s not necessarily that hasn’t been, I guess, checked or logic-checked and they haven’t run it through because they’ve read it online and they just assume that’s what they need to do. They haven’t really run it through their own filter and thought about it in detail and logically approached it. 

I guess they’re in a way contrary in viewpoints or again these are like kind of obvious things like they’re just like, “Ah, yeah, that makes sense. Let’s try it and see what happens,” and you can get a completely different result.  In a sense, they’re kind of 80/20. You do them. They’re small little tweaks, but they can have a massive impact.  

John McIntyre:Cool, all right, so four classic contrarian. We’ll make sure to put that contrarian in our marketing mistakes. This is stuff like I haven’t done e-commerce before, so I have spoken to Ezra and this guy X and like it makes sense to me that you should do an abandoned cart email that you should do some auto follow up. What you’re talking about here and what we’re getting into is sort of doing it with a little more finesse instead of just firing away emails at these places with these events actually put some strategy into it. 

Brendan Tully:Yeah, exactly, I think a lot of it comes as well … I’ve got a lot of real world sales experience like selling in person, selling big IT projects and things like that so for me a lot of these things are common sense, but a lot of people who run online stores and doing email marketing haven’t necessarily sold in person, so they wouldn’t necessarily think about these when they’re setting them up. The first one is abandoned cart emails and absolutely, you’ve done podcasts on it before – you need to have an abandoned cart email system placed. It just makes sense. It’s easy. 

John McIntyre:What’s an abandoned cart email system?

Brendan Tully:Abandoned cart basically is anytime someone comes to the website puts together a shopping cart, gets some way through the checkout process and leaves the website. The abandoned cart email system or cart abandonment system will detect that and send them a series of emails based on where they are in the checkout process, so basically asking them why they didn’t checkout their order.

John McIntyre:Okay, and so what we’ve done, from what I remember in the previous podcasts, usual thing is you just send them out three emails, five emails. One goes out an hour after. One goes out a day after, and you could offer them a discount. You could give them a testimonial. You could remind them about the guarantee, and they’re all sort of standard things that you might do, but you’re talking about something that’s a little bit different. That’s the mistake, right, is doing just that?

Brendan Tully:Yeah, so what I think is really trying a close-harder approach, so pushing them into the sale rather than trying to find out why they didn’t purchase in the first place. Basically, people have their priorities wrong, so with cart  abandonment emails, the typical or the standard approach is I want to get the conversion. It’s like trying to make the sale like really, “Here’s a discount. Here, try this. Check this out. Here’s a bigger discount.”  

If you think about it, if you were in a physical retail store, you walked in there, you poked around, picked out some products, had a look around, decided not to buy and walked out. If the sales guy came out and ran down the street chasing after you screaming that he’d give you a 10% discount, and you said no and he was like, “20% discount, 50% discount.” That’s not a very sophisticated … it might work you know if the discount’s big enough, but that’s not a very sophisticated way of selling, and it cheapens your brand and it’s not very effective. Instead, the priority should be to uncover why they didn’t check out, so find out the reason why they didn’t complete the purchase.  

Now, obviously, there’s going to be some people who got interrupted that had internet connection problem. They got distracted. They walked away from the PC. There’s going to be a proportion of those, so typically on the first email any sort of reminder is going to pick up those people, but asking them what was wrong if we did something wrong, why you didn’t check out, and then using those insights, asking them for a reply. 

You’ve talked about it – the basic email structure should always be sent from a real person’s email address so they can reply to and asking them why they didn’t check out and using those insights to improve the website, make tweaks and changes, change the pricing structure or whatever it is. Long term will work a lot better than just simply throwing discounts and focusing on trying to make the conversion or the sale. 

John McIntyre:Okay, so we’re thinking much a long term perspective where you sort of bringing that sort of iterative process when every time someone gets a reply, you might create a Google doc or a spreadsheet with all of the different reasons why people aren’t checking out. Then once a month you go in there and you kind of go, “All right, everyone’s saying that they didn’t know the kind of guarantee, so maybe we can make our guarantee more visible in the header of the page or something like that or that we have free shipping.” That sort of thing, using the information that will reply to these emails to sort of drive the development and the optimization of the website.  

Brendan Tully:Absolutely, and you’ll notice, over time, you’ll see the trends, so it might be that your shipping cost is too high or all of a sudden there’s a cheaper competitor on the market and your prices are too high compared to those. Just throwing away the discounts and trying to close harder is a stupid way to approach it. If you approach it with some finesse and find out, uncover the objections basically and then answer those objections in updating the website content, changing the marketing strategy or whatever it is, long term it’s a much better approach than simply just trying to make the sale. 

John McIntyre:I like the story there, too, when you got like, “If you went into a store, and you didn’t buy something. You walked out and some guy is chasing you down the street yelling out discounts at you,” maybe it works but that kind of – that story sort of highlights just the stupidity like it’s a bit silly. It’s just silly. There’s much better ways to go about it. 

Brendan Tully:Yeah, absolutely.

John McIntyre:All right then, well let’s do the classic contrarian email marketing mistake number two. 

Brendan Tully:Okay, let’s go into the next one, using unsophisticated sales and marketing tactics. The classic one is just like what we’ve talked about, discounts, so throwing away discounts without any strategy around them. Discounts really should be the last option. You don’t want to cheapen the product or throw away margin when a better sales tactic will work or be more effective. 

Discounts are really the last resort. You shouldn’t use them so often. You shouldn’t be throwing them away every month; doing a sale without a good reason. I would share and say whatever you do, make sure that the discounts are the last thing that you try in all your marketing.  There are other things you can try upfront for example, a buyer’s guide or top ten tips for things people don’t know about this product. Something like that is going to be more sophisticated and probably work better than just throwing away the discounts. 

Again, if you take the real walking into a retail store analogy, you walk in there, you look at products, sales guy comes up to you, the first thing he says is he has 10% off. It just doesn’t make sense, so you want to explain the products, help the customer make a buying decision rather than just saying, “Here’s a discount, quick buy.” 

John McIntyre:This is going to – I mean you can give the discounts and get the sale, but you’re saying what’s going to lead to sort of I mean more of a long term profitability with the store or maybe even a short term profitability that’s going to take more time to massage the sale. 

Brendan Tully:Yeah, absolutely, so stop trying to … there are some reasons to use discounts, right, so they can be used strategically to increase the size of orders for example, so you can have an opt in pop-up when people get to the site where there’s a $10 coupon if they spend more than $200 or something like that. That’s using discounts in a smarter way because you’re using that to increase the order value, but simply just throwing away money is a bad idea.

It’s important to think about there are things customers need to know in order for them to make the purchase, so they need to know about shipping methods. They need to know about payment methods, returns and warranties, so those sort of things. A lot of people forget that they need to remove the friction from the sales process. Updating the website, copy and content to help the customer uncover more of those things or find that information out more easily will often work much better than just simply throwing away the discount.

Classic one is we see on e-commerce sites product page copy that really has a line of text about the product and that’s it. It has nothing about shipping, returns, warranty or payment information, so simply just being better about the sales copy and the sales message will work a lot better than just throwing out discounts out there.  

John McIntyre:Okay, so is this the sort of thing you’d have in like the product description or could you have like in the header, you might have free shipping on all orders over a $100 or you could make it sort of like a site-wide explanation or would you have product specific sales copy?

Brendan Tully:It depends. There’s definitely … The header is something that a lot of e-commerce stores underutilize. It’s a big chunky bit of space that displays on every page, so if there is something like free shipping or there’s some advantage you have over competitors, absolutely that should be in the header because that appears on every page and a lot of people for an e-commerce store in particular, most customers are not coming in through the home page. They don’t read all of the sales copy on the home page, so having something in the header is more likely to make them stick around.

 I like to think, the way I explain to my clients is that the product copy, the copy on the product pages should really act as a sales letter in itself. The customer should be able to get the majority of the information they need to make the purchase without having to leave that page, so that means really that product description should have something about shipping and something about payment information and warranty and maybe some videos or a link to a buyers guide or some extra information. If the customer has the click around to find out about shipping information, it’s adding more friction to the sales process, and it’s probably going to hurt your conversion rate. 

John McIntyre:Okay, so what you could do is you could have a widget on the side, in the sidebar or something like that that explains sort of in more detail because you’re not going to be able to fit that in the header, that sort of explains how it like [buy process 00:20:02] how it works or something that’s like, “Well, first you make an order and second, this happens and third, this happens,” really just so they know exactly what’s going to happen when they make an order and the shipping, the returns and all of that sort of stuff and then you have product specific copy just explaining the product itself in the description which is usually the more words you’ve got, the more selling you can really do, as long as it’s interesting. 

That’s the usually the idea, so kind of take some time to actually sort of articulate what the product is and who it’s for and what it’s going to do or them.

Brendan Tully:Yeahp, absolutely. It depends on the site layout as well. Ultimately what you’re going to be able to do, so different site layouts are going to allow you to do different things, but yeah. It’s a classic mistake, not enough sales copy on product description pages. One good tool that we use that you often – because it’s hard when it’s your site, you’re so blind to these things and you’re not the customer, so you don’t see a lot of these things, you don’t feel a lot of these problems. 

Two tools that we use to uncover a lot of this stuff, one is CrazyEgg Heat Map Analytics, so you can kind of see the visitor behavior as they’re poking around the site. Another good one is ClickTale Analytics Suite and actually see videos of user behavior on the site. You can see them clicking around and scrolling up and down the page, moving through all different pages and it gives you a good feel for what they’re looking for. You see them land on a product page then click out to the shipping then click the contact us page and bounce around the site, so you get a much better feel for what the customer’s looking for and what they’re doing. 

John McIntyre:Okay, okay. Well, cool, what’s mistake number three?

Brendan Tully:Okay, number three is – we kind of talked about this already, but caring more about the conversion than the customer, so a classic one, auto-follow-up emails, post-purchase emails, and I know you’ve had podcasts about this before with other guests talking about there’s a whole bunch of strategies around you could have automated sequences and order respondents about following them up and if they have consumables, emailing them after three months or whatever, following up to see if they’re going to buy more consumables. 

One of the key things that people forget is if you care about the customers and make them feel cared for, that’s one of the best ways to improve your conversion rate. Classic way to make the customer feel cared or a really easy way to do that is have the order follow-up emails and typically that’s a review request email that goes out, so 10 – 20 days after people order, the e-commerce system will send them an email automatically saying, “Can you put a review on our page? How’d the product go?” Adding a couple of lines in there to just ask the customer if they received the order. What do they think about the product? Is it doing what it needs to do?

 Just asking them a few questions and caring and asking them to reply with their feedback will work a lot better than just saying, “Hey, could you put a review for the product?”

John McIntyre:Okay, so sort of treating them like a person instead of just a sale?

Brendan Tully:Mhmm. You’ve got to think if you think about the customer if they’re your best friend, if your best friend orders from your site, 10 days after the order, you’re going to shoot them an email and say, “Hey! How’d you go? What do you think about the product?” If you treat the customer like they’re your best friend, then the whole email marketing system is going to work much better for you and the conversions will just be easy. You won’t be pushing uphill all the time.

John McIntyre:Okay, so I guess it would be worth having someone on the support staff to reply and respond to those emails that come in from customers.

Brendan Tully:Yeah, absolutely, it really depends on the size of the store, so if you’re a small store, you can have the emails coming out from your name. If you were running a site, you could have the emails actually the automated emails come out with or whatever, and they reply and they go directly to you, but if you have a bigger site where you have customer service people you can make someone dedicated in the customer service team to stick their name on the outbound emails and they handle the replies. 

John McIntyre:Okay, okay. I like this. Would you have like an email going out first that says, “Hey, I just wanted to know how the product was?” and then after that you’d send another email about the review?

Brendan Tully:I usually do it in one because a lot of the time when dealing with a small business clients that the e-commerce system will only support on email, so usually, we’ll put up – you could do both, but usually we’ll just lump it in together with the same emails so we start of, “Hey, it’s John from McMethod or whatever. We just wanted to see how the order went. Did it actually arrive?”  We set the order follow-up email usually to go out 18 to 20 days after the sale because by that stage, they should actually have the order. 

The product should have arrived, so ask them whether it’s actually arrived, what they think about it, if they have any feedback, so just ask them to reply, so we ask them, “Do you have any feedback or ways we can improve the website or anything you didn’t like about the website?” Then we have the blurb, the kind of standard copy with has the link to the product page where they can submit a review on it. Ask them for a favor, “Can you do me a favor? If you have three minutes, just put a review for the product and let us know what you thought of or think about the product itself.”

John McIntyre:Okay. What about things like, so within that sequence you’ve got the review, sort of like the asking treating them like a person asking them for a review, can you do things like say, ten days in you send them an email with sort of like “Here’s how to get the most from your new kitchen knives” or something like that?

Brendan Tully:Yeah, absolutely, I mean it depends on what the product is and it’s definitely product and market specific, but yeah, again just caring and treating them like your best friend. If they’re your best friend, if your best friend ordered, what would you send them after the sale? If you think about it through that sort of lens, you’ll write much better emails and the whole order respondent post-purchase sequence will work much better.

John McIntyre:Okay, does that mean, so like when I’m emailing my friend sometimes, I kind of write pretty casual. Can you get away with that sort of thing with follow-up emails?

Brendan Tully:Yeah, I think so. I think you’ve got to walk the fine line. It depends how casual. It needs to be casual sounding, and one hack to do that instead of opening a blank word document or opening the email tool and trying to write emails from there is actually just open your Mac mail or your Gmail and write the email in there because your mind will frame it differently and it will sound more natural and more casual rather than a bit more forced and … You don’t want it to come off like being kind of cheesy or even sleazy, so …

John McIntyre:Yeah, okay, well, what if I were, I don’t know, friends with Rob Hanley? He’s got this way of doing – this sort of thing where you go on Facebook, he’s got a few fake accounts with pictures and sort of like an avatar that he’s drawn up so they each have a personality, and then he pretends he’s writing to them and writes them a message and copies and pastes that message to his email to send it out to his list.

Brendan Tully:Yeah, I mean anything you can do kind of hack it, and get it out of your own way like it’s really hard to stare at a blank page where you’re in your own email client or in Facebook half the time, well, half the day, so it’s really comfortable to start writing in there. You just got to make it sound more natural and flowy rather than forced and kind of manufactured. 

John McIntyre:Okay, well, let’s move on to the last one, number four. 

Brendan Tully:The last one: we’re just not paying enough attention to email in general. One really common mistake or one really probably more of an oversight than a mistake is e-commerce business owners set up a site and business is running great, been running for a few years and the owner themselves or anyone in the business hasn’t been through the checkout themselves in years, so they don’t actually know, they’re not familiar with what the extent of the checkout, how it’s working, what’s wrong, what the emails look like. 

By not paying attention to emails and caring about even just those automated transactional emails, often they’ll be saying the wrong things and it won’t look good or they’re missing out on a huge opportunity to do better emails and send better emails to the customer because I know in the X Wang podcast, he talked about leveraging those transactional emails and they’re a huge opportunity because people read them. Also not just from a conversion perspective, but from a customer service perspective, answering common email uncommon questions in those emails can also significantly reduce the customer service overhead as well.

I’ll say that email is probably in almost every business is probably the cheapest marketing tool they have and one of the easiest ones. There’s a very low barrier to entry and once you are doing email, it’s very easy to tweak it and do it better. I’ll tell you it’s just generally not paying attention and not caring about it enough. 

Those e-commerce businesses that are giving so much time and attention to SEO and Ad words and they’ve got all of these consultants and management going on for those marketing channels and there’s nobody really caring about the email marketing, so I would say giving it more attention, some dedication is really going to pay off and you’ll see it – how it impacts the conversion rate if you consistently give it some attention. 

John McIntyre:I liked it, too, how – I mean the cool thing about email is that it’s such a automated sort of system, so that once you’ve got this setup, you might want to check it once a month or once every three months going go through that check out process to see what’s actually going can, but once it’s all done, you can kind of just … then you go back to SEO and page traffic and you just kind of pour leads into that funnel email sort of part of that conversion process. 

Brendan Tully:Yeah, absolutely. It’s the ultimate way to clone yourself because you do something once and it because it’s systemized and automated, it happens every time without you thinking about it. That’s why it’s easy to forget about it, as well, like it’s easy to forget that it’s so powerful if you give it some time and attention or put some attention towards improving it over time. 

John McIntyre:Hmmm, but with the transactional emails, so you’ve got the like order confirmation, the shipping confirmation emails, what sort of – like do you have like a sort of like a template or three different emails or five specific emails that you put in those? How do you do it?

Brendan Tully:I don’t have anything templated, apart from just giving them some attention and the big win there particularly the transactional emails is getting ahead of any customer service inquiries, so you want to tell the customer how they can find the tracking information about their shipment. You want to tell them what to expect next like in the selling process as a general rule you should always, the customer should always know what’s next, so you should be leading them and leading the way, so in those transactional emails you should be explaining them or telling them what to expect as the next step.

You see, the default emails that come out of e-commerce systems are terrible. They’re badly formatted. They have a whole bunch of words in there that are not very marketing-friendly, I guess, so I’d say, again, with the transactional stuff, it’s bare the focus on the customer and caring about the customer as opposed to simply trying to make the transaction, and so if you can anticipate what they’re asking or take those common customer service questions and rework the transaction emails overtime, the customer will feel better and their general experience with you will be better so I think that’s where for me, that’s where I’ve seen the win on those transactional emails.

John McIntyre:Okay, and what about some sort of referral in there when they’ve bought say, I don’t know, a big steak knife or a set of steak knives to cut up steak and of course. Then you offer them some you like, “Well, would you like this big meat cleaver, as well?” Would that be the sort of thing that you could put in a transaction email? It doesn’t have to be the main topic, but it could be just down the bottom, so they read the email, they read the customer service stuff. Then in the bottom, it might say, “By the way, people who often buy steak knives, they also buy this meat cleaver.”

Brendan Tully:Yeah, I think if it adds value then it’s definitely worth trying and testing – I think you need to test it and see what offers work better, but if you think if there’s something that’s going to add value to them if they – maybe they need a sharpener for their knives or they need to know. Maybe you could just send them a link to a page with “How to Sharpen the Knives” and on there, your sharpening product or whatever, but if you’re going to if there’s something that will add value to them or the sale or the whole transaction process in general, you should absolutely be promoting it. 

You should be there to help the customer. Selling is not – people have a bad – selling typically has a bad rep. It’s really solving someone’s problems, so if you can solve their problem better by if there’s a complimentary product or service or there’s another company that you’re partnered with even, maybe getting affiliate or a [fill 00:31:27] permission then anything like that absolutely can go in transactional emails or just like a proposed purchase follow-up. 

John McIntyre:Okay, cool. All right, well, we’re right on time. We’re running 30 minutes, now. Before we go though, let’s talk about Pareto E-commerce. What’s the deal?

Brendan Tully:What’s the deal? Well, the website’s, so if anybody’s interested in checking it out, they can head over there and stick their email address in, and they’ll get a whole bunch of information. Like I said, it’s basically my consulting product broken down into DIY format, so once it’s on up the site, it will walk you through a bunch of modules and you’ll also get the tools that I use when I’m working with clients, so you get like a framework document, which is really just this spreadsheet with the list of their improvement items and some conditional formatting in there, as well, so you can actually track where you’re at with those improvement items.

Particularly if you’re a bigger store, it’s a good way to manage a delegate that goes out. Typically, there’s something like 120 improvement items in there, line items and typically, when we do consulting with clients, we’ll get three to five improvements done per month. It really is, there’s a lot of meaty stuff in there, and it’s probably realistically, if you’re hustling, you could probably get all the improvements done in 6 or 12 months, but if you’re a bigger site and a bigger business, then there’s probably a few years worth of improvement action items there. 

It’s a bit different to your standard information product where it’s not just throwing information at you; it’s giving you the tools to actually go out and be able to do it yourself. The add-on tools and cloud tools that we use to do things like abandoned cart emails and post-purchase follow-up and all that sort of stuff. 

John McIntyre:Okay. This isn’t like – there’s a lot of other products out there where they teach you about drop shipping and e-commerce as a sort of like a Biz-Opp, business opportunity, whereas this is more for someone who’s already got a store, who’s already making money and just wants to get better results with it, so they’re sort of like an experience entrepreneur, they’re already getting results. 

Brendan Tully:Yeah, so it’s definitely, it will work better for established businesses and typically you need to be earning six figures a year revenue or more to get the most out of it. If you’re a small authority doing five figures a year, you will get some benefit, and the price is right now, the price is 197 Australian a quarter which works out every two bucks a day, so it’s not super expensive anyway, but …

John McIntyre:It’s less than a Starbucks coffee a day, right?

Brendan Tully:Yeah, exactly, but the bigger you are, these are kind of multiplier type improvements, so if you have a big site to begin with, making an improvement that improves sales by five percent. If you have a million dollar business that’s going to be a much bigger improvement than a business doing a hundred grand a year. 

John McIntyre:Yeahp, yeahp, yeahp, absolutely, okay, so they sign up and they go through it, and they can sort of pick and choose which direction they want to go in?

Brendan Tully:Yeah, they get – so it’s broken down into sections. The first section is quick win, so whenever I work with a client you want to hit the quick wins first. Then some of these things are super simple like for example, the abandoned cart emails. Just by implementing something like that can be a massive win for conversion rate, so start off with quick wins which should within the first couple of weeks, the product should pay for itself and making you money 

John McIntyre:Cool, and then after that, that goes into the main list of changes. This – I like the idea here where you kind of go in there and maybe you can do it yourself or do it to some contractor or an employee and you just pick like you said, three to five things, maybe ten things, depending how busy you are, just hand them out and then that’s sort of your work done for the month. 

Brendan Tully:Yeah, and I’ve got templates like Swipe files where you can just – I have some examples in there where you can just simply cut and paste and change out the words to your business name and you’re away. 

John McIntyre:Yeahp, and just to get back to the name, I don’t know if we’ve mentioned it yet, but this whole idea of the Pareto principle of – I’ve had Perry Marshall in here to talk about this whole 80/20 idea, so you’re talking about little changes that produce big results?

Brendan Tully:Yeahp, absolutely.

John McIntyre:Sweet, so that’s the I’ll have a link to that in the show notes at, and if someone’s interested in your consulting or wants to learn more about that, where would they go for that?

Brendan Tully:Probably, head over to my consulting website, and shoot me an email through the Contact Us form. 

John McIntyre:Cool, all right, so links to all that at the McMethod. Brendan, thanks for coming on the show. 

Brendan Tully:Yeah, of course, man. Thanks for having me on.

The post Episode #71 – Brendan Tully on The 4 Classic Email Marketing Mistakes Almost All E-Commerce Business Owners Make appeared first on McMethod.

Aug 19 2014



Rank #7: Episode #144 – Ben Settle On Slacker-Preneur Secrets Of A 10 Minute Business Lifestyle

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Ben Settle is one of my favorite business badasses.

He is brash and contrarian…hence why his podcast used to the “Antipreneur Show”.

Like Ben years ago, you may be starting into the freelance game (or deep in its clutches!).

He was once where you are…and lived to tell the tale.

Not without some battle scars though.

So listen while he recites the do’s and dont’s of freelance copywriting and then…

What he does now.

A business which in the simplest terms…

Takes only 10 minutes a day.

You’d better sit down to listen to this.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • The book of “Lost Secrets” that gave Ben a head start and the incredible way it tied into Gary Halbert.
  • The single critical piece of advice Ben would give a freelancer (prevent burnout and get paid!)
  • Why the “natural” way most people want to go in business is dead wrong (and why no one thinks Ben’s way should work!)
  • A business lesson Ben learned the hard way. The reason he abandoned a membership site and what it means for you.
  • How Ben gave a girl a personality. Discover how to fashion your own without becoming REPULSIVE.


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey everybody it’s David Allan. We’re back with another edition of the Email Marketing Podcast. We have a veteran email marketer on todays show I’ve wanted to talk to for a long time.
He’s been on John’s show before and his name is Ben Settle. Ben Settle, how are you?
Ben Settle: I am doing great. How are you doing David?

David Allan: I’m doing fantastic. It’s a nice day here in Monterey California. And you’re up in Oregon.

Ben Settle: Yeah I’m in I’m in Bandon, Oregon where it’s pretty shitty out here. Can I use that word on John’s podcast?

David Allan: Yes absolutely. John would probably tell you to only use those.

Ben Settle: Yeah it is pretty it’s probably – it’s one of those days where it’s like really windy and everything’s blown all over the place and I like it though. I like the storms and everything and it’s right up my alley.

David Allan: Oh good. That’s awesome. Now I think I first heard about you from Michael Senoff I believe…

Ben Settle: That’s very possible.

David Allan: Yeah. Because I first started learning about email marketing from my course put up by Matt Furey.

Ben Settle:Me too.

David Allan: Yeah. And I later found out that you were much the same and then I stumble across Michael’s web site when I first got on the Internet I think it was poking around for a couple of years and then you guys had some dealings together so I think there were some products and stuff to you guys worked on together.

Ben Settle: Yeah. And we’ve been friends for a long time we’ve worked on a lot of stuff together.

David Allan: That’s awesome. You first started out as kind of a freelance copywriter, is that right?

Ben Settle: Yeah. Yeah when I first started out I didn’t even know what I was doing. I just knew I wanted to learn this copywriting thing and I thought I’d better get some clients so I can figure out this game as fast as possible. And you know it didn’t happen fast.

David Allan: I know the feeling. This may have been covered in the other podcast but what was the first sort of your first. I think I heard the story somewhere but who knows how much I’ve listened to or read. It was something to do with like you had a business at the time that was kind of failing and then you stumble across a book or something.

Ben Settle: Yeah I was I was I was partaking of the gateway drug known as MLM at the time.I was like the worst distributor that’s probably ever walked the face of the planet. I’m like this introverted Grinch like crotchety guy. I don’t want to go up to everybody and say hey do keep your options open for ways to make money. It’s just you know and that’s what they want you to do. And it’s like oh yes. Yeah I end up living in like this office because I was in so much debt. I was passing recruiting tapes out door to door to businesses and getting laughed at and mocked and rejected. And one morning like 3:00 a.m. I woke up I was laying on the floor of my office because then I didn’t have furniture or anything and I was like God you obviously don’t want me doing this is like two years. I hate this guy. And I went and picked this book up just in my other room which I had read a couple times before but it never really got me or anything it was called The Seven Lost Secrets of Success by a guy named Joe Vitale. Joe’s a copywriter and author and it’s about this old school advertising guy named Bruce Barton. And most people don’t… Well I don’t know I think I’m spreading the gospel of Barton because I tell this story so many times. But basically he was this old school advertising guy and he was well-known. He was like a contemporary of John Caples and he was a congressman and he was a open enemy of FDR and he is well known in the business world on Wall Street and just you know just everyone knew who he was at the time. And in 1919 or after World War Two or were World War One I should say and this is in the book this is the page you just turned to. Some out of work sales manager came up to him and said I need help, Bruce. Help me find work. And he’s like well tell me about yourself and I guess the guy turned out to be. His specialty was sales letters. He was a sales manager but his specialty was sales letters. And so Bruce takes him to the window and says Look at all these buildings out there full of businesses why don’t you’re supposed to be good at writing sales letters why don’t you write a letter to them on selling them on hiring you. And that’s when the light bulb went on for me after that. You know that’s where I learned – discovered this magical kingdom called copywriting and never looked back.

David Allan: That’s awesome. Yeah I’ve read that Joe Vitale book too. And probably because on your recommendation I’m sure along the way somewhere probably because I heard what you said. Now when you first started down that copyrighting – because a lot of our audience is of course freelance copywriters and people probably looking to hire freelance copywriters as I have found out. And also you know new business owners the stuff that they’re sort of learning about the importance of copy. What sort of steps that you take to try and find those clients? Did you pull a. you know, Bruce Barton-like idea?

Ben Settle: Well know this was in 2002 so we didn’t really have the options you have now. It’s so easy people now getting started so freaking easy to get clients it’s like you’ve got people with no talent what’s what we’re getting you know five ten thousand dollar jobs. I’m thinking Holy crap this Facebook has made people so gullible and stupid that they just hire anybody off there. You know honestly I didn’t have that I would love that man but they didn’t have that back then at least not that I was aware. I ended up getting my first few clients. They weren’t even paid clients – I had read this this article by Gary Halbert called Why MLM sucks or why multi-level marketing sucks and and in the end that newsletter he was talking about how look don’t even bother with clients just go make deals with people who already have product to sell you just write the ads and then you split the money which sounded really good in theory. I did that and I never got paid on anything until I met Michael Senoff, and him and I did it. And that turned into a very like a three year relationship where we sold a lot of stuff and we split the sales and it just worked out great. But that was such a rare thing to make happen. It’s like that was like winning the lottery in a sense because I’ve never found one since I like that you can trust at least. Right. People get weird is what Michael told me. He goes Ben we’re going to have to sign. We’re going to sign an agreement here for your own protection. And I said why is that. And he’s as honest as the day is long. He goes because when big money starts being made people get weird and I don’t want that to happen with us.

David Allan: So you know that’s a very you got very lucky that because I know I’ve been burned personally myself and seen other you know happen other people and it seems very counter-intuitive that something that’s going so well would cause such issues. You know in some case I think Michael said it perfectly when he said that when that big money starts being people get weird because. Yes. I remember Gary Halbert even talking at some of his seminars about how people stopped mailing stuff at no reason other that just like I’m bored you know I don’t want to do more. I mean just rake in money and they’re like what are you talking about you know. So if you had like that because you sounded like you went through several instances where you sort of tried to partner with people. And ended up getting nothing. What sort of advice would you have for people who are looking. You know look at what clients are looking to partner with people who maybe approaching them?

Ben Settle: Well I you know I’m probably the last person who should be answering those questions. I haven’t done client work for like six years but I’ll say this I will say this. You know get paid up front and establish like a relationship with that client and if it makes sense later to do something like that fine. But you know otherwise just don’t don’t like go in there with someone you don’t know. I mean you know I’m not saying it’ll never work. But I will say that it is you know in my case that even people that that you would think would not pull any shenanigans did. And no I see it. Yeah I’d just look back and think I would have I wish I had gotten paid other than what Michael Senoff. I wish I had because it worked out with him but I wish I would put it taking money up front and then if it made sense you know make a partnership – But, I’ll say what you don’t want David even that you’ll get burned. I was in the golf niche and I wrote an ad for this very prominent golf company. Am I going to name who they are but they’re very very prominent. And I wrote that I wrote their sales letter for them and it just you know they kicked ass and all that and it was great. And then I approached them I said well what if I’m just the copywriting guy and you know I write all the emails and sales letters and they liked it. And then I ended up you know ended up kind of not being very ethical and and that just not ethical. You know at the same time it was my fault. I should never know. I didn’t hold them. I didn’t hold them to the standards I should have and you know I mean it’s all my fault at then end. But even in those situations where you life not liked them originally I really did. I didn’t know they were crooked all that and you know. Yeah. I don’t know man. I just think that people should do…My whole thing is this…sell your own stuff. Be your own best client. Until then you know work for other people. But on the side. But the first hour of every day into your own business selling your own stuff and eventually you won’t need clients. And if you do have them they’ll be optional.

David Allan: Right. I think that’s very good advice. And you know I once heard John Carlton I think one of his seminars I watched on DVD was funny that he you know mentioned it, because I’m going to ask you a question about how your sort of business personality has evolved and one of the first things I really heard about this was John Carlton – the way he said a consultant needs to be a total prick and you need to double your price.

Ben Settle: I like that. I wish he told me that.

David Allan: So now you have a very – you had a podcast for a while.
The antipreneur podcast and you have a very strong personality that people see come across in your daily emails that people are familiar with you of course know what I’m talking about. For those that don’t know you jump on Ben’s list you’ll see has a very distinct personality – did that evolves out of those dealings. Or were you like that beforehand? Or how did that sort of come to fruition?

Ben Settle: I’ve always been a crotchety guy like that. But what I you know well the longer I do this the more I like to put a little bit of a show on for people. So the personality you see in my emails on my podcast is 100 percent me it’s me with that with less. With without the filter I would do in polite society. And you know and that’s all it is it’s actually more me than the ME. I deal with in my little small town of Bandon here. You know I can actually I could I mean you know I’ve been getting kicked out of restaurants and stuff and that’s the beauty of it like in marketing you can be you if you can be whoever you want. I just did that. I just consulted some girls on this actually. You know I told them I would help them with some stuff.
And one girl who I just look around sometimes and I told her the look I said don’t worry I will give you a personality with because she does videos and stuff. She was I don’t I need help like that. I go don’t worry I’ll give you a personality. And I said I was joking when I said it at the time- her and I we’re always flirting with the others though. Yes. So it’s just like kind of a joke. And then when I had her on this call her and these other people on this call recently she goes I really want to impress you on this like what personality should I have. And I said I don’t know. I told you I’d give you a personality. But in the meantime I want you to take your personality and then just ratchet – exaggerate it a couple of notches. And that would be the advice I would give to anyone is to take your personality whatever it is. Don’t try to be somebody you’re not because this is where everybody goes wrong. They’ll read my e-mails and I’ll try to be me or they’ll read someone else’s stuff and I’ll try to – They’ll read David Allan’s stuff and try to be David Allan or whoever and that’s the wrong way to do it. You’ve got to be you. But you can exaggerate it a little bit just be you with – If you didn’t have to worry about when you had to say. And as I say that with this little bit of a warning you know I’m not a big fan of being like the potty mouth guy.
You know it happens sometimes. But some people take this to such a degree where they become repulsive to the point where nobody wants to deal with them. So you’ve got to modulate to your market at all timews.

David Allan: That’s a very good advice. Now from people I’ve interviewed on my own podcast – I’ve interviewed a lot of the best copywriters that are alive and John’s had a lot of them on this show as well. One of the things I’ve noticed is that people tend to go in a full circle they sort of start with the client work then they come out with their own products and work themselves eventually. Now you seem to be one of the people which is one of the reasons I want to talk to you who sort of spent as little time as possible in that client aspect and then you sort of figured out OK I need to do my own products to make my life so much easier like what we’re talking about. So when did that sort of click for you.

Ben Settle: What I’ve always you know if I hated authority. So I’ve never really liked doing client work. There was never a time doing client work where it wasn’t just a high paid job for me. You know like I mean I was inspired by it. Well you mentioned earlier I was originally inspired by Matt Furey like back in like 2003 2004. He would talk about in his daily emails and he wasn’t writing to business people, he was writing into the fitness market and he would he would brag about you know I’m not even going to edit this email this is all I’m doing for the day and I’m when I’m in China right now I want to go ride elephants. I thought that is such a cool lifestyle like I don’t need to ride elephants but I love the idea of just writing an email and being done and have my business set up in such a way where I can do that. So it was very early on but it took me many years the kind of put it all together because there was nobody showing. I mean there is stuff out there that would show you how to do an informational business but not like that. I mean it’s it’s simple but it’s not necessarily easy to set all that up and have it going so you’re full time in it and it took me many like seven or eight years to figure that out.

David Allan: Right…now you have a new product that just came out. I said just came out to me and like the last quarter or something of last year a product you did with AWAI – may want to talk about that because that’s sort of the offshoot of all that you’ve learned in those last you know years of starting your own project and become more Matt Furey-like.

Ben Settle: Yeah and it’s funny because in that program which is called the ten minute workday I think that by the way I would love to take credit for that name but one other writers at AWAI figured that out and I just took it is – They’re like the greatest people in the world over there I just can’t think of a single negative thing about them they’re just awesome. But it’s funny because in that program I like one of the first slides is something like Furey-esque origins or I give all the freaking credit for this because without him like studying his business and studying just him I don’t think I could have figured this out. And it’s not like there’s a lot to figure out in fact it’s all very simple and that’s the problem. It’s so simple nobody thinks it should be able to work. And it’s like the biggest sales job is convincing people yeah it really is that simple. You know what they want to do ? Everybody wants to complicate stuff like they will go out of their way to complicate. I mean I gotta tell ya.
This is why I don’t take, by the way, personal like students anymore one on one because all they want to do is comp… I will show them the most simplest thing and they gotta go out into the weeds. It’s like when I’m walking my dog I just is like an epiphany I had yesterday actually while walking my dog. I’m trying to get her to. I want to take her to the beach where she loves to walk. So on the way to the beach or she keeps wanting stray off into the side you know into the woods. And it’s like I’m trying more in the morning in the morning time she wakes me up in the morning every day and then I say Oh let her out but she will pin me to the ground and will let me get up. I’m trying to give her what she wants – but she won’t let it happen and that’s what people do with the ten minute workday stuff I’d like. I mean hopefully they’re not because we’re doing like monthly webinars this year for that or anything to help people. But I think that’s the biggest challenge people have with this kind of stuff. They want to like. They want to try to personalize it – don’t – just take the raw materials and build the house. However you want why don’t we use the blueprint I give you?

David Allan: Well it’s true and you’ve been a big inspiration for me too I think to some people I had on my other podcast were people who kept stuff very simple and they sort of stayed away from – you know funnel is a big sort of… everyone funnel this funnel that funnel cake – who knows – but it’s it just serves to complicate things. You know those things have been around forever. Those aren’t new things. It’s just because you know it’s become it’s become a terminology, a jargon but in reality those things are what every business does. Hopefully you know how they have some funnel in place. And so I think it just gets in the people’s head and I think have to be the sort of big parade- a show like you’re saying.

Ben Settle: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like 30 steps and they don’t have a product yet to sell and that’s just like you know you don’t need all that. I mean there’s a place for all the software like you know all the popular – like Russell’s. There’s a place for it. And I’m talking about Russell Brunson like is a place for that stuff but not for the new person who still hasn’t figured out an offer and it’s like all they should be focused on is getting the opt in. Making a sale and then selling those buyers something else. Start with that and then you can start branching out. But they want to start with everything. They have these big flowcharts and all this like what are you selling. I don’t know yet but I have my funnel figured out and doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. But now – there it is.

David Allan: It’s true. Now what do you getting into copywriting – then most people listen whether they need to make the jump into copywriting as well or may go the freelance route or write for themselves hopefully like you’re advocating. Were you one of these people who took old letters and copied them out by hand sorta the Gary Halbert advice and advice to people of you know either copywriters give that advice – the A-list quote unquote copywriters give that advice. Is that something you did?

Ben Settle: Oh yeah I did it day and night. Like whenever I could at my job I worked at I mean I even I was. And then I learned and I got -some advice I would give on this for people because people get people who find this hard to do sometimes and I get it. It’s tedious writing. It’s like hand cramps and all that – pick a one copywriter that you actually like you read their stuff for fun. For me that was Gary Halbert. I would read his stuff for entertainment. And so it’s much easier to copy his stuff out than someone else. And I don’t know why I would focus on his stuff. I’m not saying that the listeners should I I think the listener should find a copywriter that they just they like reading their stuff and do it with them. And I like copy like his or Boron Letters book by hand like goes also but it was it was great. I think it really does work. I mean that people say..that’s just bullcrap I don’t know. I think it does make a. I think it definitely does – there’s something to that because yeah there’s something to it. And even certain novelists have done that like the guy who wrote the book Roots. That’s the reason I’m thinking is because it’s in the book on letters you talk about Alex Hailey. Yeah. He said the guy the Alex Hailey Not only did he go across the ocean in the belly of an old ship so he can get experience what that was like. But I think he I think he said that he wrote some a book out by hand to like some I don’t know what book it was just so he can understand what writing a book feels like and there’s something to it. I don’t you know I’m not going to say I’m the expert at it but there’s like a product that I hear a lot about that – I am not endorsing it I don’t really know much about it called Copy Hour and I know they do that. Well actually one of the one of the owners I think is Ian Stanley who I like him alot of I don’t I just have never used it. You know I can’t tell you. But I mean even if it’s advocating this stuff I don’t think it can be a bad thing.

David Allan: Yeah I heard too. I think it probably was from Copy Hour because I was a previous member as well that Hunter Thompson also wrote out if not whole books then certainly passages by people like Hemingway and stuff like that that he could get better at writing.

Ben Settle: Yeah I didn’t know that but that’s interesting to know actually.

David Allan: Now one of the things that I really enjoyed about stuff that you put out over the years was when you started your antipreneur podcast back then I was listening to the different podcasts and I hadn’t really found one that I truly know I would list them on and off. But when you sort of started yours that was when I really you know I admired and it was succinct and short to the point it got a lot of good information out and you and Jonathan of course are both funny guys – I’ve had Jonathan on my other podcast as well.

Ben Settle: Oh Good. He’s great.

David Allan: Now what made you get into podcasting originally because I don’t think I’ve ever heard the story.

Ben Settle: On New Year’s Day or of 2014, I put an e-mail out there. Where I said here’s my goals for 2014. And one of them was to start a podcast. I know nothing about podcasting. I didn’t know nothing about how to do one or how to produce one how to do on iTunes I knew nothing why. I just thought it would be fun. Like I I had no purpose for it I didn’t think it would be a money maker and I just I just I have so much to say on this stuff it’s like therapy and I thought that would be a cool thing to do. Well I can’t say there was that was the only reason I I had recently like a couple of weeks before that I had a talk with a guy named Danny Iny and he just he really changed my brain on some things in a good way about the idea of building a list and how building an audience is much more important than building a list. List is part of your audience. What an overall audience isn’t just an email list. It’s it’s a lot of stuff. And the bigger your audience the better so that was another aspect of it. And Jonathan Rivera replied to that email said well if you want to help with that you know I can I can help you with that. I was like holy crap. Yeah. I knew nothing about this stuff. So that’s what got me into that and it lasted a hundred and thirty seven episodes the last 12 which were like secret episodes we never aired publicly. I just gave those away to buyers of my villains book when I launched that a couple of months ago. But it lasted over two years like two and a half years and then we decided we’d want to put it to a paid membership site because I was giving away. I was teaching way too much and I was like I didn’t mean to.

David Allan: I was the opposite of your emails.

Ben Settle: It really is. It was ridiculous and Jonathan kept saying Ben what are you doing. I just paid you to learn that. And is here right now we’re going to put this in like a membership site or something. And you know we’ll see what happens and we could add some more stuff to it like he would interview some A-list copywriters. We had that in there. I had some other stuff going on. And that turned out to be like a huge nightmare. I mean I just hated the idea of having a membership site I hate having to rely on a team of people – I’m a one man band. I missed my print newsletter at that point. It was super successful. It was like the most successful launch I’ve probably been involved in but it was just to me it was a nightmare. People were chasing me down and our other partner Misty who does the voice on the podcast chasing her down like for technical stuff where we don’t know
jack about that stuff but they’re like chasing her down on Facebook and chasing me down. It’s like if this is this bad it like 950 members how is it going to be when we get to know 5000 members like it’s a nightmare. So I literally the day after the launch I just told Jonathan I want out. And I thought was going to be mad at me you know but he was so relieved. He felt the same way. So. So it all worked out. You know whatever. So then I took I took the rest of the year off and I relaunched the new one on New Year’s Day this year and it’s so far it’s getting some pretty good pretty good feedback from people. So we’ll see how that goes.

David Allan: So I guess a lot of the problem stems from like you want to keep your lifestyle the way it is. That’s very very you know, uncluttered if you will.

Ben Settle: Absolutely and that clutter it quite a bit because he had – like Jonathan has a great team in place now but even they were getting like you know even they were like It just I don’t know what it is. I’ll tell you what it is. And I thought about this because like why was this such a miserable experience for me just because because my name is attached to that to that which was a different entity than my main website and stuff like that was all owned by Jonathan and his team dealing with that. And people are just used to contacting me personally you know. And so it’s kind of my own fault like I almost did too good of a job branding myself over the years as like so you know I think that was a big factor of it. But yeah I don’t want to discourage. I have to say because I don’t want to discourage other people from doing a membership say for some people that’s what I see. I see some people starting to do print newsletters because they just want to copy what I’m doing. And they’re missing the point because I can tell they hate writing and they don’t really want to do it. They just like the idea of it but they would be better off just you know recording some audio or something. Or doing a paid YouTube channel or something. Yeah I might. I mean I can’t speak for what people are doing but I just see that people are much more like naturals as video for example and yet they’re struggling writing a print newsletter because that’s what Ben’s doing. I’m not saying people should do that at all. I think that’s one way of doing it. I wish I was a video guy. I would definitely have a paid YouTube channel. I would just let them handle all the hosting. They’d be the easiest thing in the world. But nobody wants to do that.

David Allan: I think that’s good advice too because it’s a lot of people are much more comfortable with the different mediums. I myself I’ve enjoyed doing audio and I’m entertaining the idea of doing an audio product instead of like you know a paid letter or something like that.

Ben Settle: Yeah

David Allan: I really want to thank you for coming on the show, Ben. It’s been really illuminating talk just as I hoped it would be.

Ben Settle: Oh I appreciate you having me

David Allan:. Yes. You had a lot of good advice now. People want to get in contact with you which I’m sure they will what’s the best place to sort of go. So they can get involved with the you know being brainwashed by Ben Settle.

Ben Settle: The brainwashing begins at and if you go there and I think if you give me your precious e-mail address you Opt-In and not some stupid hotmail address but like a real email address you know. You know if you’re really into this you don’t just do this for the freebie like a loser. No actually be committed right. I mean I have to say that because…

David Allan: Don’t pull any punches Ben

Ben Settle: You know there’s certain people that just do that and they wonder why they’re spinning their wheels. But you opt-in. I’ll send you the first issue of my email players newsletters in PDF. Now it’s a newsletter but I’ll give you the PDF for the first issue 24 ways in there to make more sales with emailing starting right away. They’re not hard things to do or anything people have. Some people told me they’ve made thousands and at least one or two cases tens of thousands of dollars just with that free information just applying it to their their business.

David Allan: It’s a great issue. I can attest to that.

Ben Settle: Yeah. And it’s a very real retail value of $97. It’s not like I’m making the value of what people charge – it cost them. So you get that if you don’t give me your e-mail address you can still like click through to the blog and there’s like 2000 pages of blog posts on there and I’ve got all my I’ve got over a dozen hours of audio and video training and I have a podcast on that site but it’s hidden now I give the link to people who are actually on the my list but if you get that link then you’re going to have all three two and half years of my old podcasts plus the new one all at your fingertips. So much stuff there I would only I mean I could spend like two hours of time all this stuff but that’s at

David Allan: Yeah that’s a great place to go. I’ve listened to all those past podcast before you attempted to make it a paid thing so I can attest to the content there like you said you were almost teaching too much. And I was thankful for that. And yeah if people want to get involved with Ben go to but opt-in like not with a lazy e-mail address like who says I know you will be rewarded because I have made money by listening to Ben and it’s a real pleasure having you on the show again Ben, and I wish you the best in the future I look forward to seeing what you’re up to.

Ben Settle: All right man I appreciate it. Thank you.

David Allan: Thank you very much to everybody else. Of course our podcast will have another exciting guest. I think it’s going to be a guy who’s coming out with some new auto responder software that you need to know about. So for people tuning in this should be a chronological order. You know a very exciting guest is going out with a sort of a game changing auto responder software so tune in next time for that. And for people who want to get a hold of me, David Allan, go to Yes for those that I’ve been asking I still do take on clients if the fit is right. So go to or shoot me an email – and I’ll get back to you as soon as possible.

The post Episode #144 – Ben Settle On Slacker-Preneur Secrets Of A 10 Minute Business Lifestyle appeared first on McMethod.

Jan 24 2017



Rank #8: Episode #180 – Jon Buchan On Cold Emailing Strategies To Make People Open, Read and Reply. (Even Massive Brands)

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Jon Buchan’s first cold email…

a bulleted list of his skills…

landed him his first digital marketing job.

When word of mouth referrals dried up
after a while…

he realized he had no way to gain new business.

So he did what “every Brit” does in that situation.

He got blind drunk and in the fog crafted a cold email to send
to prospects.

What happened next was shocking.

Large corporations like Hewlett-Packard, Red Bull, Symantec and more began to respond.

He’d get replies like…

“My client sent me your spam email and we’d like to meet you to discuss opportunities.”

He used the same types of email to land people endless job interviews…

to get himself on podcasts…

and now he’s started a rapidly-growing Facebook community.

Listen to this episode as Jon teaches exactly what he’s writing in his fabulous emails.

B2B doesn’t have to be boring to boring communication any longer.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • Use this rapport-building superpower to forge new relationships and create uniqueness.
  • How stories endure…the PR savvy of dead celebrities.
  • 3 foundational formulas to break through and stand out. You’ve fallen “victim” to these yourself…every day…without putting it all together.
  • Weaknesses become towering strengths with a few simple words.
  • How to express yourself and have reams of new clients thank you for it.


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan:Hey everybody we’re back for another edition of the podcast. I’m David Allan for – the host as per usual and we have a very exciting guest on here today because I think this guy for lack of a better term really gets it. He is a specialist in cold outreach. He’s really a copywriter in disguise I don’t think he’d really like to be labeled a copywriter and he’s really taken humor and sort of infused that into marketing practices to gain new clientele. And I’m probably going to butcher his name but John Buchan welcome to the show.

Jon Buchan: Thank you very much.

David Allan:Well welcome to the show. I think this is really good because I learned about you very recently and I loved some of the things you had to say. I read some of your read posts and so forth from the past and I think you’re just going to have a very exciting thing too because a lot of freelance copywriters which you know is a big audience. They’re not really sure for for a good chunk of time like how to actually go out and get clients. It seems to be a real big stumbling point. So maybe take us back from the very beginning before you got into all of this what were you doing and how did you end up here.

Jon Buchan: Yes. Let’s see if I said I did come back so I’m always being in business. And I had a lot of business. And after a few years decide how I wanted to move to London and work for digital marketing agency. That was actually probably my first cold email just thinking about it. I’ve not said this before but I just sent I a bullet point list of my skills to the top results in Google for SEO agency London. I think I’m going to be

in a week job I move down and then over the next few years it wasn’t. It was a family cable ish agency. I don’t I see expressionists. So I basically went to my agent CIA agent see over five years quitting my life and after a while the only people any job over me was say you know I thought I’d have I’m going to get me that job type that role. And I also thought it was a lot of tactics and things that were really not in the client’s best interest and I thought I can do this by myself or with my brother who was my business partner. And I got my 90 cents and

we started my agent say and went very well until all of my one of my slides dried up. And then I realized I was crazy too and I didn’t see what you’re just given will warm lace. I didn’t have a business so I was desperate and I dealt with that the only way Brits know how I got blind drunk. And I just remember I can’t remember most about evening but I didn’t remember I wrote this absurd claim. And in the morning I was still tipsy enough to think it was a wise idea to send this to very senior people at Big Brown very city marketing people. And I said like Red Bull and

Pepsi and so on and these you know these types of you know giant corporations and I didn’t you know I don’t know if I thought it would work but I think I did. I just thought I’d try. And to my amazement it worked. So I got these amazing complementary responses. And my favorite one sent me right. My colleague forwarded me an email. And we would like to meet you which is such an oxymoronic sentence. Yeah I know the one saying like I never replied to these but I absolutely give my money. I actually actually have two replies. And I realized every time I sent a same out every time I press send to I get paid

or you know purchase data from Octon directors. I did it I got more of these complementary responses and sounds more intense and I ended up meeting with Greipel cards the Mannatech Cisco Barclays love just countless big brands would reply and I get meetings with and obviously I wouldn’t close all of those but I closed enough that it worked and I didn’t change a word of mouth for about three years. I found a magic trick here. I didn’t do follow up messages. And obviously after a while I kind of reverse engineer why I came out. And one of the things that I recognized is that I remember when I sent it. One of

the things I thought was I need to send something different to what everyone else is sending because even if someone in digital marketing I would get calls e-mails offering me digital marketing so I knew what people were sending and I wanted to make something completely different. So I always I to reverse engineer it. I started experimenting with sending direct my analyst well. And after about five years of getting these complementary responses and bucking all these meetings I realized actually this is the thing on bestor is opening doors and how to. Get calls or meetings with just about anyone. And that’s when I think actually this is what I want to waste on its charm offensive. And when we

did generation through léontine email direct mail and then this year around March the end of March this year I started my facebook group basically on a whim. I did a pilot call with a guy that runs a group called The Cult of coffee and I said you’ve got something unique you know. Then you could start a group that would be successful. And that was basically that’s when I made the decision. I started posting content and to my amazement just six months later I got five thousand and numbers after an email list. Now I’m selling products that basically a whole business. And I never thought my stupid

easy words from a drunken stupidity would lead to a second business. And if I I’m wrong in 2012 my life would be very different. And. I’m just shy people my very way is why I generate new business and it’s working to pay. And it’s a great feeling to bail out people.

Yeah I think. I think it’s very interesting you know story that you have and that you did you know sort of get blind drunk and sort of that allowed you to sort of you know think outside the box express really maybe who you really are. You know as a person and the way you would normally talk to somebody you see so many emails and of course I get these all day long too of you know just these stairs I’ll you know professional speak type emails and it’s just like god awful. You know I want to read the first. I don’t even know what the first thing I read of yours was but I just I laughed I know I laughed and I thought oh this guy is just he’s just expressing himself authentically.

And he actually had an idea just on the spot it would be funny to make a cartoon character. That’s actually the type of person that speaks like you know the mouth of a fairly.

That’s a great idea. You talk like that in his normal life and then he would put on another face. That’s a true market that goes up and is a great idea.

I was yeah I can do it when I looked at my I realized that because I never studied copywriting it might be something only recently I probably studies Southcoast writings. I come to sell products. I was using Kema formulas because I’ve been obsessed with stand up comedy and sitcoms and funny movies. So all of those were built in those like these different formulas. And I recognize that’s that’s what I’ve done right now. It’s I keep tension with these you know. Right now it doesn’t have to be laugh out loud funny but just then all the other emails in someone’s inbox and that’s one of the chiefs and I’m Yeah. So when he shot content myself and I love

it it just keeps getting crazier.

Yeah I think it’s and I think it’s you stumble on something that perhaps is different for everybody but the but for you it’s sort of the same for me. I first years when I first started writing emails what I learned from a guy named Matt fury wrote the legendary internet marketer and he basically would tell you he was forced to write like you talk and then sort of your case like you said you’re a big fan of stand up in movie funny movies and all sorts of sarcasm the stuff being British. You know I’m Canadian so I get a lot of that stuff too. It’s you’re just expressing yourself very authentic. And I think

that really what also is what really comes across not just funny but you’re just not afraid to express yourself.

Yeah. Well for me I am I struggle with the opposite. Like I’m always just find it curious when this courses on how to be more authentic. To me it’s not the default setting. Actually that’s the easiest part. I mean I contadino I read and like I can speak in corporate mind fucking up your job to me get me to write in a tone of voice and voice. I just couldn’t do it. So for me it’s on the other way around. That’s natural to me.

On the corporate set there’s something special to think about like the way you choose express yourself courses humorously. And there really is something there. A of marketing things. Sometimes is actually copyrighting what a sales message is like injecting a little humor. Sometimes it can be a sort of a risky element depending on who you’re talking to. You know from what I do elsewhere. We talked about as much as a magician. It’s really the humor that’s driving the whole performance. Endearing myself and creating rapport with the audience. Not so much the tricks or the you know the medium if you will what I’m using to express myself. I think it’s the same for you. Like there’s some there’s a special

rapport building thing that goes on when humor is shared between people.

Yeah definitely. And if you can make someone smile or make them laugh especially when it doesn’t work then you’re going to be you going to when someone’s attention and actually going to read your message and also then you’re likely to respond positively if you made them like you made or even the office. I think they’re going to hit reply and if you send a you know just a general generic came out and especially the humorist and it yourself or the situation where I just sort of joking about it you know because there’s a lot of e-mails where they kind of hide away from the fact that they said you know that they shouldn’t call him out. Whereas I’m in my

emails I would say I’ve highly on John Greetings. I’m John. Got United from A-list. But hey at least a list where they can do something right. That’s that they’re on a list. And I brought up my last name. I like that man’s name. I’ll start with you have this problem. Obama infomercial. I went right in with Yeah I got it from a list like a Since you say that you know the rules come down like I it and I was like no one else’s message me Libres and refreshing honesty is really effective in silence.

So it is it is because it just cuts through all that sort of like pretending you know that you’re not doing what you’re actually doing.

Yeah. It’s and I’m actually trying this taking it further as well for actually what I’m doing proposals aren’t coming at me thing and I’m going three prices at a price and I’ll go well I this is deliberately inflated because I know you’re going to negotiate me down. So I said to a client I said I just want the normal price and he was like no no no let’s play the game. That’s a completely local you know. If there is this kind of dance that we do that’s doesn’t really need to be there anyway. I kind of just make fun of it and just you know we’re all just paper at the end of the day we don’t have to

have this big pretense. And I think that’s the magic trick is that you don’t have to have to get through that.

Yeah. By calling attention to the elephant in the room kind of thing you supposed it and then it disappears. Exactly. Exactly. So let’s let’s go into more like history. You know elucidated a few sort of Trixie’s And if you will because we have like I said we have large you know audience comprised a lot of freelancers and this is the one thing I hear they get daily emails probably about this is like you know people I’ve heard you know prospecting versus you know positioning himself and all those guys stuff. But I think the best way when you’re starting out and the fact most people I’ve ever heard of doing anything service based starting out is they’re out

there outreaching to people and they don’t like to talk about that part because it came at the very beginning and sort of position themselves as some sort of dude who was like a magnet. But at the beginning you know they reaching out to people. So what are some of the best ways. Like you said you obviously use humor. You had this one e-mail that went for three years running. You know what are some of the elements people should be putting in their e-mails to make that connection with people that are very authentic where they’re only on the first person format.

I’ve used a very similar age now to get people as many job interviews as they want. Like that someone wanted to work in marketing. I had no experience but I got a job at a marketing agency and I got like 13 or 14 interviews and in an email I know there’s lots of tricks Nightbeat you know it’s got some humor in there and stuff. But it was honest of an 11 experience. They asked. Like I didn’t we didn’t pretend that I was these veterans they would be taking that chance. Well you get to mold me into the perfect employee so you can you can take your weakness put it on make it call it the elephant in the room or turn it into an advantage. Right. That’s a

huge thing. And then there’s other things like when you’re making an ask I always sugarcoat it. So one of my lines from the original now is. If you agree to meet with me for coffee or lunch or tequila shots and promise to make sometimes attaining your luck I might even wear a top hat. And you know I look at that is that there’s a formula for a joke that is called a triple and it’s basically obviously coffee that’s sensible. Lunch that sense looks killer shots. That’s completely absurd. No I was up against loads of agencies that I’ve got much fancier offices

ostensibly but I pastries. For. Staff. Being a fan of client lists you know that I had a lot more towards all that stuff as an advantage but then no one else has offered to take them for tequila where I get to night that is all they need to remember me for good or ill mostly for good. So you sugarcoat your requests and if it’s a phone call I’ll often say if you great a seven minute call with me. Just an unusual number. I will certainly do you know by telling you either the lamest joke I know or some random trivia about my hometown that you’ll find

online fascinating and it just makes that request that instead of it’s ending like a hard sell you turned into a low because the channel called e-mail is not to that every feature and benefit of the all is to sell the idea that a call with you are making is not a terrible use of that time and it turns into. And as I say I’ll give you some idea. You’re free to stay up. So with that instead of feeling like I’m going to be hard southcentral it’s like oh this is going to be a fun call and I might get some ideas for free. You know that and he’s made me laugh that at the moment you know you can see how that’s going to be far more enjoyable. And I might say yes to that request but I’m going to be grilled

by a salesman. So it’s been putting your cards on the table. Sugarcoating your requests. And then there are joke formulas that you can use that anyone can use so what is the trick. I just went through. There’s another called the triple reverse and I used this actually to get on the Kevin Rudd just as I started with I want to introduce myself in a way that showed I was interesting was he unclutter. I last I wrote ZEVALIN says and then immediately smile got a laugh and you see just winning people’s attention. So the way it works is you make someone smile and laugh and then you can put your little pitch in let me get down to brass tacks. Talk about your business man you

made him laugh again and you can do it or ask so nicely and you just keep winning someone’s attention with a little. Yes family doesn’t have to be laugh out loud funny it would just smack with the stuff that gets their attention. And I’m one that smiling if you think about it as they’re reading it they’re reading your requests while they’re smiling and laughing. They’re going to the mall. So it’s got a little grace period or for sale that you’ve created. And if people want specifics if you search for find the fairness of the hash tag hash tag send it on Twitter. The people at the stands the letters I used to send will scare the hell out of me. I didn’t want this message getting out. But

now it proves that it didn’t work so I started sending as a direct mail piece of research that I asked to expand the all say the exact copy and replicate it. Sorry if I rambled on a bit.

No no that’s fantastic exactly what we want to know. So you’re basically creating these little like almost patterned interrupts you get getting the norm like most people would say and that without those things in there so they just get this boring email it’s like pitching your services or whatever. But you’ve created these little pattern ups.

Like you said these which are love which smirk were the sort of little bits or does that you’re sprinkling in amongst the to you the important stuff.

Yeah I think that I’ve labeled it so I didn’t know that time an interrupt and tell you this. Yeah and as soon as I had the time I was like I know what I’m doing. That sounds like it was intended to be true. And I coined humor I just wrote I think it’s the best homage drops in science and so on I know staling remotely. And I’ve been asked the best first impression you can make and the other thing about this approach is it looks really personable even if it’s not seen. I don’t know why I’m saying the same mean out of the first name changing for a long time a just looks passable.

It looks like a one to one exchange even though it’s not just a way of writing that’s what that resonates. And the other benefit is he will respond and I’ll try to make you laugh or I’ll respond in the same informal style. So already you’re talking in a different way you’re not talking in business language. You talk a lot you know each other. That’s a huge advantage. People actually look forward to the cold that you’re going to have rather than just a grains.

Yes. Yes. No I think I think that’s yeah that’s a very important thing. It’s like this afternoon I think of the name of the book but there was a book that came out many years ago where the guy advocated being 100 percent honest at all times. Yeah. And he said that while that is incredibly difficult. He said that immediately when he was like that it freed up everyone else to be like that. And so that’s exactly what you’re doing in a way or you’re because you’re incorporating humor and you’re making people laugh and stuff. They’re coming back and it’s just more casual and more real.

They simply I think a lot of that and I use this especially to get in touch with for brands that was my thing I really wanted to work with big brands at the time. And. I think a lot of them I kind of liked that I wasn’t putting them on a pedestal. You know they are people and I guess they must get so many emails that you know scour that linked in profiles and find something that they got in common with them. I think people can sniff that like you know pretending that you know asking.

What I do like I can jog up on it.

I can imagine a scenario where you don’t start at once. I write it all that’s the thing I can talk about that subject line. I actually read some people that I kind of you know just like to be spoken to normally. And there’s like a bit of a slump. And I think panic people kind of like the airline business as well as like it shows a bit of daring and brazen. Yeah. Yeah. Shows some confidence not just in positioning there as well I might be extrapolating a way too much but it is something that. And I just like to say I can say that normally Yeah. It’s completely different to the same people that is really

petrified of putting a smiley face and a name out there. We got to this point where. It’s kind of like double lives on us. Why are we seeing this this way. Why. I think it might be a PR agencies that have in the last few decades taught this kind of double talk. I said that right. I don’t know what it is but I’m hoping one by one we can make this communication more human.

Yeah well I think there’s a lot of parallels to a lot of different sort of fields you know. I mean this is the same thing that I would think occurs in dating you know people are looking for the perfect thing to say to the member of the opposite sex to sort of unlock that conversation and get things started. It’s almost the same thing because they’re looking for look and say something magical where like the music comes on in the background here it goes to the side you know and you sweep a person off their feet or whatever works much better just doing kind of what you’re doing which is just being real and just talking like you would normally talk and just not putting putting it on a pedestal just saying hey what’s up is you know

yeah I’m just confidence.

I think people can detect when you make tentative and hesitant and not enjoying the whole exchange Why is this you know everyone’s going to like it. Like I didn’t get a response once and this was racing I I there’s this just this year where I got a reply saying congratulations this is the worst housing marketing e-mail I’ve ever received. Before I get even a reply a minute we sent a follow up saying but the irony is not lost on me that I replied You know it’s brilliant. See I think people are worried about getting those negative replies and my response to that is well if you sending call emails you are interrupting someone’s

day don’t respond at all. All right. Now what I want you say you’re going to get some replies like if you do. Right now my human mind you are trying you know in some humor and especially the depersonalise a lot more. You have a much higher chance of someone. I’m also. So for me it’s self-selection like I haven’t really silly things in front of me. I photoshopped a basket of kittens had babies. People have said Aren’t you worried that people are going to go. I’m not in it with him he’s playing a professional and for me it’s like now that that’s exactly the point it’s self-selection. It’s not about

opinion. I don’t really want to work with them. I have standards of my detractors I have standards. I just. That’s. And the boring people can come where they are basically boring.

Boring boring. That’s a good way to put it.

John what are some really people want to do want to get some teachable is of humor down. They don’t want to seem like a dog or a milkshake. What work or what should they be reading. We should look into.

Well first and foremost the group on Facebook called charm offensive and I’ve heard they’re good. Yeah yeah yeah they’re not that they’re not entirely I fly by.

And I heard you say a bunch of kids from a burning building so I guess allegedly.

Allegedly so that you can find me on the link. And John Buchan and. Charm Offensive daquiri Hey I’m actually going to start. As of today actually I’ve started writing on my blog Zouabi material on that. And you know something like I hope we are on the outside of my stuff. There is a great book I’m going to butcher the name now called the serious joke Writer’s Guide I think and it’s by someone I think it’s Juday is it is that sinister prices guide. I believe it is called and can get on Amazon. Really really.

Really the best thing is to watch stand up comedy or watch comedy more and it can’t be you know the more and more you watch it the more it creates those sort of you know punchlines. We’ll be calling the formulas. Well we’ll just be calm natural. Combined with you know going to like the charm offensive group and letting the sort of humor formulas just so you know I’m just writing more. I just practice writing. You’ll get better at it. So that book from Amazon joined charm offensive and watch more comedy and you’ll be able to get better writing than this disarming style show. Or just write my letter.

And just rip that up and change the references slightly. That can be a short cut.

Who are some of your biggest comedy influences.

Oh yeah I just it so as far as just like being really good with jokes. Jerry Seinfeld is just a great joke Strassmann. I like Bill Hicks. I like a lot. Bill Daksha pal Chris Rock loves those guys but also the writer Hunter S. Thompson in his book fair and I live in Las Vegas and he also has books of just these letters that he’s written and that kind of style because he was not think about him and so few people like this guy is the same person to everyone. Right. Literally it’s their mother that you know it’s

slightly different but pretty much the same person. And that’s only one that I know of. Like that. So check out his books as well.

Also he is to do one thing about Hunter S. Thompson I heard a friend who was like a Hunter S. Thompson like afficionado and he said that Hunter S. Thompson couldn’t actually hand up the books of like Hemingway Afghanistan.

Yeah. Yeah you say you got fired for typewrite he a copying got a typewriter.

Oh yeah just look at there’s a great video online for people who want to go look. I think I think it’s all a bob and you where are you. I think it’s Conan O’Brien is out there visiting them when he was still alive when they’re shooting off cannons or something.

Or does it actually get a good idea. Great line. I just remember it is a formula where he’s I think he’s one of the universities and he said I hate to recommend alcohol drugs insanity but it’s worked for me. Another two or of us boy go.

That’s awesome. I really want to thank you for coming on the show. John you’ve been a pleasure to talk to you. Was a very funny and you should do some stand up.

I’m going to keep fighting and I’m going to do it again and I want to say I would love to say some stuff from me that talks. Well the magic and how it relates to coffee I’d love to say that.

Yeah I think I think I’m willing to say we both got our homework cut out for us. Yeah yeah. Likewise I was going to see oh I know where you’re performing next John. And yeah real pleasure having you on the show I wish you the best for people you know charm offensive. Of course what was that hash tag people looking for.

And the fire is actually I found the ferret and you’ll see a few people at scanned that last are in and say hello.

Excellent for everybody else. That’s the route for this week. We’re back again with another exciting guest next week. Until then.

The post Episode #180 – Jon Buchan On Cold Emailing Strategies To Make People Open, Read and Reply. (Even Massive Brands) appeared first on McMethod.

Oct 31 2017



Rank #9: Episode #158 – Justin Goff On What The Best Copywriting Clients Want. Lessons From A Former Freelancer Turned 20 Million Dollar Business Owner.

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He started selling websites to settle a $1000 gambling debt.

Then he became a “just-skating-by” freelance copywriter.

The real turning point was what he termed “3 Days Of Hell”.

His freelance consulting client fired him – erasing 90% of his income…

He girlfriend of 3 years dumped him…

And finally – the coup de gras – Lebron James announced he was leaving Cleveland behind for Miami.

So he picked himself up and started to whittle away by starting an online business.

In three months taking his ads from break-even to $100/day – then $500/day and beyond…

He’d made himself a cool $100,000.

He parlayed that money and experience into his next venture.


A few days before this recording, he sold off his interest in what had become a $20+ Million company.

So whether it was being a freelance copywriter, or in a position to hire some of the best…

He has some immediate advice for you and other business owners.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • The single biggest difference maker in his copy career. (This crucial advice is NOT for the faint of wallet)
  • An easy, “almost-magic” way to set yourself a part from a sea of copywriters business owners loathe.
  • One secret “Mr. Moneyfingers” divulged which changed everything about Justin’s upselling.
  • Do you have these 6 talents? The skillset growing business owners want from their copywriter today.
  • Discover secrets of growing a company from zero to over 20 million. (Without this one indispensible factor it’s IMPOSSIBLE!)


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey, everybody We’re back with another edition of the podcast. I’m David Allan and we got a really special guest on the show for you today from what I know he’s just sold his controlling interest in a big supplement company. Justin Goff Welcome to the show. I saw that post this morning I think so I don’t know how recent that is but he sounds like you sold your interest in more than 20 million dollar company.

Justin Goff: Yeah I did. Twenty three million in 2016. My partners just worked out a deal last Friday. So.

David Allan: Wow,congratulations.

Justin Goff: I’m officially unemployed

David Allan: And unemployable too I’m sure. So maybe for people who don’t know much about you let’s sort of start with your super hero origin story where did you come from and how did you get to the point where you were selling your interest in such a big company?

Justin Goff: Yes. Lots of twists and turns along the way. I started making web sites online in college mostly because I had a thousand dollar gambling debt and it needs to make back and a bunch of money.
I got the first taste of making money making sales online which was great. Kind of a big turning point was 2010 now. I basically was doing some client work I was doing freelance copywriting more just skating by than anything I had been sitting on this project. I was working on for a while which was a health offer kind was focused on my paleo diet and I was kind of before paleo got as big as it is now. And I had everything ready had to side up I had to copy written and VSL and I was really good. I was really just sitting on procrastinating and that around this time I basically had what I call three days from hell.

Over the span of three days my biggest consulting client that made up about 90 percent of my income fired me actually didn’t fire me but here’s moving on to a different business than I need for me anymore. So as I let go I suppose my income there my girlfriend that I’d been dating for three years at the time and I was wondering when I came home from work on nights that you were breaking up with me. And wow that same night. So I drove like Rainier right near Cleveland. I’m a huge Cleveland sports fan and this was the same night that LeBron James went on TV and said he was like

three for three.

I got my heart broken toys and one night and I lost all my energy. So amazing that three days from now on a good note it did spur me into into action. So I said I was sitting on this project basically I was depressed and sitting in this apartment by myself and my dogs for two months after that and doing nothing but trying to make this offer work. I literally had maybe a month maybe two months worth of money left. Right. I was seriously contemplating moving back in with my parents for a good amount of time until I got back on my feet. I was thinking about going get a real job.

I was I had a really bad Spargo I was really doubting whether or not I actually had to do this. Wow. And that’s kind of why I started playing around with Facebook ads. I served on some traffic to our offer get a bunch of testing.

We’re seeing slow improvements which is really cool. And then finally for a while I get to the point where it was breaking even and when it was breaking even I was like well it can’t be that much harder to get this to like make like $100 a day. And that kind of happened over probably about I don’t know two or three weeks or I went from breaking even to making a hundred bucks a day. And then once I make it 100 that I start to realize I’m like well that’s really not that much more work if I get it to $500 a day. And really that’s all it was. It was improving the ads was improving the click the rate it was improving the cells copying the cells.

And before I knew it I was spending $5000 a day on Facebook.

I had basically from the moment when everything kind of fell apart to kind of turn this all around. I love making about 100 grand profit in about three months. And I kind of gave me the kind of gave me the confidence gave me the reassurance that this was the right thing I knew what I was doing and also gave me the money to kind of go through what I really want to drink.

Now at that point where you were you know you suffered this three days of hell which sounds terrible. To be honest you know you said you were procrastinating on putting this offer up that was were those things at the time that were sort of plaguing your life in general like you were you didn’t you didn’t finish things you know you were putting it off as a very much the typical like QuickStart are not good with follow through type thing right.

Yeah I would definitely just kind of settle into a pattern and be like Gunton just get comfortable with what I was doing. That was a big problem for me back then. But I mean like I said it kind of motivation to turn things around and then a business wound up running for about a year. My partner and it wanted to go out and do something else on his own so that business kind of fell apart. But like I said I had enough money that I started the supplement company with that supplement company. So with myself and then I had one other partner at that time and then he left about a year after that. And then my current partners

came aboard and we scaled that supplement company for $1.5 million in sales in the first year to about 6.5 in the second and about 23 million in the third while we of those 23 million what we did in 2016. And I just sold my interest in that company on Friday. So right.

I’m here talking about an it is so that 1.5 million in the first year. So I took off pretty fast anyways. Like when you started this one company.

Yeah I mean what I was always good at and I know Im very good at is making sales and getting a front end offer that brings in customers. I’m very good at that. The one reason I partnered with my partners that I helped scale it was they were very good at the infrastructure side. OK. It took me a while to realize that I had no interest in building out infrastructure and hiring employees all the stuff that really matters for scaling and maybe even take these companies pretty small and go to like a million two million three million with very very few employees very few infrastructure. If you got to do it right

but you’re never built by a 10 20 30 million dollar company with like an assist and a customer service person that’s really where the structure and infrastructure and everything and operations wise comes in. So my focus has always been on acquiring customers the cell phone calls writing my copy and creating new products that I think our customers are like that kind of stuff.

Right. Thats awesome. So you went from a single yourself being the single employee quote unquote. And when you sold your control sold your interest on Friday how many employees did you guys have.

So we were sharing employees between this company and then another company that they own in the survival space. I couldn’t tell you exactly but it was somewhere around 70.

OK. Wow. So it’s a decent size company possible. So now here you are here.

Now you said you started basically as a freelance copywriter before you got this Paleo thing off the ground and then this supplement business you were taking on clients and stuff I presumed. What was that like back then.

I mean theres ups and downs to client work when you dont have clients or when you’re like stuck in a regular job. The thought of having the freedom of being able to pick and choose clients who you want to work with and working on your own time is like the greatest thing ever cried. And I totally understand that. And then you talked to a copywriter who’s been doing it for 10 years and they absolutely fucking hate their clients. Working with clients and they’re so sick of chasing clients and getting them to implement stuff. I totally see both ways of it because I’ve done both. And then like I said we’re on the other side for a year as well where I was writing notes

on copy and then we’re also hiring very good writers. So I mean I see it from both ways there’s a lot of upside and a lot of downsides too.

To work on science Yeah it seems to be the case like when I got into copywriting So the forced first stuff I was exposed to was like the Gary how John Carlton stuff.

And that seemed to be like the recurring theme because of course they’ve been doing it for decades. Was that they you know the hated the clients or all clients shock and now being it should be a dick if you’re going to be a consultant on that kind of stuff. And I you know having done it myself now I can see why they would say that I’ve not been anywhere near a successful or as the longevity of them but I’ve certainly encountered enough ridiculous situations where I’ve just I’m like oh I see why they talk about that. But I can also see that you know I’ve never had to hire a copywriter. But having interviewed many of your readers now and having any friends or copywriters I can certainly see

the sort of constant stuff you hear about copywriters. You talk to you know other copywriters and about the industry you sort of share these things that recur about you know people missing deadlines and sort of bad things that copywriters do to clients that pissed them off and you can speak to both of those things. I mean you were a copywriter what I mean you’re hard and fast on deadlines you are you are no good at then end of things are you just as famous people.

Yeah I mean I was just as faulty as everyone else when I was governor.

And he’s more of a freelance writer. When I was writing my own stuff actually you know what I was writing my own stuff about I was still probably a month behind a lot of stuff.

I can tell you from the standpoint of the person hiring the copywriters meeting deadlines is a huge one. It’s amazing how quick you will set yourself apart from everyone else by simply meeting deadlines and some of the things.

So we talked a little a little bit in the Facebook post that I posted.

A lot of copywriters. It’s amazing for how good copy writers are persuasion. They tend to be really terrible at trying to get clients.

It is an interesting curiosity isn’t it. Yeah I mean.

Yeah a lot of them. I think most carburettors go about it the wrong way.

A lot of them are doing like very shotgun approach types of e-mail cold email and people and I mean really like I see this all the time or masterminds like the smart guy I know will kind of do anything they can do to get into a mastermind. And then there and I asked him I would send people that are able to hire them. And those 10 people in the mastermind are all like you is a very smart direct marketers like they’re the type of clients you want the people to actually implement and who understand exactly what you’re doing. But they don’t do it themselves so like they’ll give you free rein to do everything right. I mean the worst kind of client is someone who does not understand our kind of

marketing and you’ve got to sit there and try to convince them that one copy is better than the short copy and is at a high pressure sales type sales. They just don’t do. I mean that’s just a nightmare. You want to be working with people who already understand exactly what you’re going to do and understand the value of what you’re going to do because I mean companies that really understand that like we would pay a high and copywriters a lot of money. I mean anybody that’s going to work with the top a lot copywriters they have no problem shelling out a bunch of money because they know if they had a home run or were going to make millions and millions of dollars from it. So I mean kind of I mean that’s really one of the first things that a find in the clients that actually understand what you

bring to the table.

Now I saw on your Facebook posts where you talked about being traffic and conversions because you guys had some sort of mastermind there. And you’re talking to you know other business owners other product owners and they were lamenting of what you’re just saying which is like maybe they don’t have the wherewithal to work with the David Deutsch’s of the world. But they’re sort of looking for that. I hate to use the term you know middle grade I would refer to myself probably as middle grade and my dad is my ego getting in the way just right you know but looking for sort of that does the stumble of the absolute zenith let’s say for copywriters

you know and sort of you know $10000 whatever you want to say you know and you are sort of saying that people were looking for that because they sort of dealt with the dregs that haven’t they haven’t got any response they’re looking for those helpers person but they’re also looking for people who can handle a lot of the other aspects of copy not just the right in the copy but maybe going to more about that. What are they looking for.

Yes. I mean it’s kind of two separate issues but to me right now I really believe that the biggest opportunity for copywriters is learning how to do everything else around and offer and not just copy. So structuring the cells and writing up cells obviously a huge part of that doing kind of back and stuff like almost all of these businesses now run daily emails it’s knowing how to do the daily emails and building like a personality and a following around the customers that type of stuff and pretty much everything with coming up with new products and like pricing and how to position the offer. I mean you’d be amazed at how many just from that Facebook post

how many high level copywriters actually reached out to me and like many others hit me over the head like a ton of bricks like i realize i’m really good at writing copy but I don’t know shit about the others.

That it’s you know it’s true because if you’re not if you’re really not like you’re your client is actually I mean because you out of business you’re on yourself.

You sort of had to take apart all those different procedures so for you it was like on the job learning but for most people who aren’t involved in an actual business or just a freelancer be came as a big surprise.

Yeah and I mean that’s a really what a lot of people are looking for so it’s one thing I would suggest to to to kind of if you don’t want to keep looking for new clients out there. So one of my friends actually has a pretty good up and coming copywriter. He’s honestly just kind of learned in the last I would say two years or so. He knows how to do the who knows how to funnel stuff. He understands all the back and marketing type stuff and he has left the current company he was with and he was kind of worried that he didn’t know what he’s going to do next. And I’m just like dude you have so many skills. Anybody who would hire you for. Like every company that’s kind of growing and has like five to 10 employees is

like really like for people that know exactly what you want to do and actually try and conversion that person and another person I know who is doing similar stuff who has a really good copywriter. I play both of them and showed both of them into a role with basically being the marketing person for one company where they’re going to get a really good payment plus performance bonuses plus they still keep all their freedom. So I mean that’s another option for a lot of people. You’re not hunting for clients. I know lot just like me for a lot of copywriters it’s keeping the freedom is such a huge part of it. So if you could work from

home keep the freedom get paid a pretty high six figure salary and then get performance bonuses on top of it. I mean that’s a pretty good gig for a lot of people.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that you could afford that coaching now. Now when it comes to up sales because you bring all the copy for your you know most lot of it it’s for yourself and the company for your paleo company before that.

Any talk about selling because this is something that I get annoyed when I go into places even like restaurants or you know any kind of store really I don’t get.

Something a copyright I guess it’s very hard to be a copywriter I guess it kind of annoys me because I think that myself I am honored to be doing this.

But let me talk about that because you’ve obviously had to structure a lot of your own offers in your own Opsahl funnels and so forth Saluki get into that a bit so we can educate people a bit about what that’s about.

So if you’re going to make an offer whether or not for an end especially to get new customers the sellers are absolutely crucial. That’s pretty much where all the money is made for most offers end up sells. There they are kind of a different beast. There’s a lot that goes into them and forms so like formatting so whether you do just text or you do text and video or you can do just that. So all that matters. The offer for ourselves is one thing that pretty much the problem with ourselves is very hard to test unless you have a lot of traffic. So most people don’t ever really do any testing and hence they leave tons and tons of money on

the table. So I mean if you could really just get like here first for I always recommend just focusing entirely on the first up so that’s pretty much we’re about 80 percent of the money is made of cells. That’s a good 80:20 little principle there. Yep. So I mean the best the best rule of thumb for the first up cell is of a huge important point Chris Dodd taught this to me about two years ago and it was kind of a breakthrough moment for me. Your first up cell. The best thing to sell is more of what you just sold them. Right. So that on the surface it seems kind of like now right. Because all that.

But that wasn’t all. Right. But it’s precisely because they bought that that is.

Exactly. So like my friend Mike Geary has a paleo cookbook that’s doing really really well right now. He gives the first cookbook away as a free shipping offer for like five bucks. And then the first upswell is for more paleo cookbooks.

Like I said like a lot would dictate we’ll sell them something else like a workout program that’s kind of like related or something like a diet guide or something. But the fact that you have a cookbook buyer the idea is to sell more cookbooks.

That’s what they buy it sounds stupid to even say it doesn’t but it’s really. Yeah. I mean honestly it took me so long to realize that.

And then I went for a set. I was like oh shit. I mean I make so much sense to them and you think about like direct mail of yourself on a weight loss product. The best buyers for weight loss products are somebody who bought weight loss product. Every day.

It’s crazy but it’s so true.

Yeah and people people really tend to forget that. And I mean so people put tons and tons of time into selling us into what they are and put up sell which products we use that is without a doubt the easiest thing is to sell them something that is literally almost the exact same as what they just bought. So if you did lay a course on like a dating thing like how to pick up one in the first up so it could be something like Volume 2 of it or an expanded edition of it was videos and audios and more stuff. So I mean really it’s selling them exactly what you just saw. It’s almost like the McDonald’s Supersize Me kind of idea.

Right. Which is they are selling you more of what you want.

Now when it comes to the pricing of things them a Garci upselling. What have you found in terms of I know you tests.

You’re a good person to speak with when it comes to these things in terms of like you know how much when Uppsala isn’t a big jump in prices and so forth.

Yeah. So we’ve seen between stuff I worked on in-between stuff I’ve consulted with other people and I think most people tend to probably price their selves too low. You can really jump pretty high. I mean I’ve seen a lot of free shipping offers where you’re giving away some for free and then you can easily solved something thats over $100 on the first upswell. Right. Get 15 to 20 percent of the people to take it. And so I mean and one other thing kind of pricing is a lot of people make this mistake is that they’ll kind of look at just the conversion rate on the up cells and I mean really what you want is what’s up

so actually as the most Munnings your average order value. So if something is priced at I don’t know a hundred bucks and 10 percent are taken then you’ve got some price that 20 bucks and 25 percent are taking it right. So you want to do the higher priced line because it’s adding more value. But I mean a lot of people even smart people will get this wrong and just use the one that’s given the hives take rate. So I mean pricing. I would always kind of push the boundaries a little on pricing and probably you don’t want to be a higher price than what you first offered them whatever the original product was doubling higher price than that. So yeah I would say Put

you can push the boundaries more than than you really think.

That’s good that’s good advice. It’s interesting I always find that I think you’re right.

I think some people trying to sell it some time. I have seen people waste time trying to stairstep like these small increments can make bigger jumps and I know some other marketers are testing some interesting things in that regard. But when it comes to you know for you own sort of the goal the entire funnel sequence that you guys had going. You know you had that up so what sort of unended you cross sell people on stuff as well. How did it work.

Yes. Oh we mainly focused on to ourselves. And then we did a lot of thank you paid offers as well. I’ve consulted with a couple clients and helped them on the page. This is kind of we’ll take a page Alvar’s it was like hidden areas breaking you could find some really good money.

So you can add five one time offers on the Thank-You page and you’ll be amazed at how many people will add stuff to their cart on the thank you page. Even if you’ve already offered it up so.

Right. So it’s like a redundant offering offer almost. But don’t take it on the thank you page whereas before they did.

I mean you can do that with like a one click up cell type thing. And if you want to do this super lazy man edition promote put a couple of banners down the bottom of your thinking page for affiliate offers. I mean that kind of stuff you’d be shocked at how much money I can add especially if you’re bringing a lot of customers.

That’s that’s great advice good advice. I know we had Terry Dean on the show awhile ago and he talked a lot about the thank you page offering something right after people opted in. Even our e-mail lists for just you know custom no info collection. So for copywriters out there now when you were a freelance copywriter did you endeavor to ever get into selling your own copywriting products writing books about coffee or taking any of those things or you just got caught up in your own business.

Yeah. No I never got into any of that. I was mostly writing my own copy.

I did a little bit of consulting but it was pretty much all focused on getting clients writing copy for clients.

Oh great. Now for people who are endeavoring to learn more about you know the stuff that they don’t know if you’re going to advise me or whoever it is that’s out there that maybe doesn’t know all the different aspects.

You know what sort of resources would you recommend for people looking to learn more about this peripheral stuff which is actually more important in many cases than the copy.

I’ve actually had a lot of people reach out to me and ask this. I keep trying to figure out like where a source would be from. I haven’t come up with one specifically to write but I would say a studying actual funnels of offers that are working.

So go into a health match going the financial match those type offers are all over you’ll find them all over like Boola little ads that are at the bottom of a lot of like news websites.

Right. Those type of things you’ll find those products. And the simplest way to figure it out is spend 39 bucks by the supplement and go through the whole funnel and write everything down that they’re doing just process wise. But like one of the copies of a video or a long form sales page are they how are they pitching up so all that kind of stuff that I mean that’s your best education. If you really want to do that go find five products and do that strike spend to our bikes find buy products and figure out exactly what they’re doing on their absolves you know you’ll see a bunch of similarities.

Is there anything that’s a similarity means it’s working for all of them. So right.

You’ll probably see a few differences but there will be a lot of stuff that’s similar. One course that really kind of helped me with a lot of this was Dan Kennedy as is really I think it’s pretty old. It’s called the back and J.B. course write the one with Jeff.

Yeah I think Jeff was back right.

Just a really really good in depth I mean is it a high level advance advance direct marketing type stuff. But I mean everything he just kind of talks about in there with back and and up sells just throws that idea after idea for I don’t know nine CDs or right.

But if you’re really kind of want to get an idea as to how back and then everything after the initial sales made how it works it’s a great course for.

Well I think you’ve given us a lot to think about. You certainly an interesting to hear your story in sort of the different things you’ve gone through in your in your career so far it looks like you’re headed in a new direction.

So not really sure what’s next. I’m going to take a couple of weeks.

I’m forcing myself to go for it. Going to do some wakeboarding or something I’m sure. Yeah.

I was the entrepreneur our personality were like three days without working.

I was like itching just or doing something right like putting restraints on myself and not doing anything for at least two or three weeks. That’s probably good it sounds like you’re in need of a vacation. You know we’ll sell it last. So people want to get in get in touch with you Justin.

What’s the best way to do it right now would be just Facebook Facebook dot com slash Justin Goff get a price start post a lot more business copywriting stuff there. So yeah you want one all day. Check it out.

Awesome. I really want to thank you for coming on the show. I know.

Your life has been acting I’m sure with this business and everything and I’m happy you made time for our audience because I think you get a lot of great ideas here today.

Awesome. Thank you for having it.

Yeah great. And for everybody else listening you have gotten do it just in sense because those were some of the best ideas we’ve divulged on this.

Yes. So go take action. Obviously listening is good but actually better. So we’ll be back again with another edition of the pod cast next week and hopefully they’ll be as half as entertaining and insightful as Justin

The post Episode #158 – Justin Goff On What The Best Copywriting Clients Want. Lessons From A Former Freelancer Turned 20 Million Dollar Business Owner. appeared first on McMethod.

May 09 2017



Rank #10: Episode #200 – James Schramko On Super Fast Five-Year Update. Evolved Email Strategy You Can Use Now

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It has been five years since James was last on the show.

After recently catching up with John on his own podcast, he’s here to share what’s working now.

You can find James revealing other juicy business ideas on Episodes #4 and #47 (worth a listen for sure).

Since then, he has sold his SEO business.

Sold his website design business.

He’s ramped up his coaching business, wrote a book, and now works less and makes more cash-eesh.

He’s employing some new tools.

After coaching Ryan Levesque of ASK Method fame through his huge growth phase…

James understood the value of segmentation.

He’s employing segments right at the top of his funnel and it has made everything so much more efficient and valuable…

for both his clients and himself.

Super relevant.

The right support at the right time wherever business owners are on their journey.

Email wise, he’s been focusing on list health.

Deliverability and reputation.

Listen to how he’s grown.

What he’s changed to make everything more effective and efficient.

In doing so he has found the sweet spot in his business.

The people he can get the best results for and are easy to work with.

James also talks about the effect his first, best-selling book has had on his business.

And what he’ll spill in his upcoming second book.

You should be able to take this quick, action-packed episode…

and make money with it immediately.

It’s that good.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • Should you be doing live events for your business? James gives two powerful reasons you can’t do without.
  • The game-changing effect James’ first book has had on his business.
  • Email secrets of the P.S. and Dean Jackson’s “super signature”. Are your offers converting?
  • The ways James is segmenting people entering his business. How he makes sure people see only what will help them now.
  • One big email metric James looks at which always leads to more sales month after month.


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey, everybody we’re back for another edition of the podcast and today we have a very special guest, he’s actually been on two previous times – episodes number 4 and 47, he’s a fan favorite of our audience and I’m sure you’re going to like what he had to say today because we’re bringing it back full circle as he was last on the show quite a few years ago as it turns out and James Schramko is back! James, welcome to the show…

James Schramko: Hey, it’s really good to be back I was just catching up with John on my own podcast and we thought it would be fun to bridge our little five-year gap since the last time I was here or the time before that. Certainly a lot…

David Allan: Yeah…I think this is really going to be exciting today because we’re going to talk about…dun…dun…dunnnn…email marketing, which is what this podcast is really about and you’re going to share something you’re doing with your own business and we’re going to bring it down to the technical side, we’re going to bring it down to what the emails actually contain – if you will divulge – and we’re just going to get into this right away. If people want to learn more about James we’re going to provide that near the end of the show but if you go back to the two earlier episodes you will hear more of his life story and what he offers through his SuperFast Business…business. James… let’s talk some email. Where do you want to start? This about you and what you want to share with our audience so where do you want to start?

The post Episode #200 – James Schramko On Super Fast Five-Year Update. Evolved Email Strategy You Can Use Now appeared first on McMethod.

Jul 31 2018



Rank #11: Episode #145 – Dave Miz On Game-Changing Email Software Every Marketer Will Kill For

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His boss laughed at him when he quit his high-stress broker job in 2000 to “make websites”.

After finding gurus like Mark Joyner and Corey Rfacebooudl, he stumbled down the “internet marketing” rabbit hole.

“There’s got to be a way to make money with this”

A question that changed the rest of his life.

His own internet dating and a later product led to an avalanche sent to him by none other than “David D’Angelo”.

$39,000 on the first day…$100,000 for the month.

He was on his way…

Or so he thought.

Then cancer struck his family…not once but twice.

He neared bankruptcy.

Years passed.

He knew he had the potential to do more and so for the last 19 months, he has fought with a vengeance.

After an entrepreneur worth over a half billion confirmed that his latest idea was worth a shot…

He poured his heart and soul ( and a pile of money) into building the email software he knew the industry needed.

It’s just days away…

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • The presentation he saw that first gave him the idea. (What this company was doing with it’s VA’s was nuts!)
  • What to do when a 500 million dollar man gives you advice.
  • How to avoid the horrible mistake most software creators make with developers. (This can cost you years and tons of money).
  • How this software will explode ancient email wives-tales.
  • What this software does is amazing. (How this will punch ROI through the friggin’ roof!)


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

Pop Up Archive Item: “145 edited_mixdown.mp3” :
Transcript for file: 145_edited_mixdown.mp3

David Allan: Hey, everybody it’s David Allan. I’m back with another edition of the email marketing podcast.

Our special guest today I think you’re really going to enjoy because he’s bringing something new to the marketing game. That I think has never been done before and will be a real game-changer. Dave Miz, welcome to the show.

Dave Miz: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

David Allan: I am excited about this because I know a little bit about what you’re up to but I will get up with the details because I think when this podcast comes out it’s nearly exactly coinciding with when you’re going to release what amounts to a new software product. Is that correct?

Dave Miz: Yeah. Yeah. Something totally new.

David Allan: So I’m very excited. Let’s dig into this.

Dave Miz: I was at a seminar and a couple of years back from Greg Davis who’s like a big CPA traffic media buyer. He was in D.C. one of the guys that spoke at his seminar was this guy who was like 500 million dollars self-made. Guy’s name is called Com Mirza. I don’t know all this.

So I was out in the hallway. We were shooting the breeze me him and a buddy of mine my buddy ends up joining his mastermind. He’s doing really well and much better than I was doing and you know he could afford it. So. So he ends up going and we ended up all becoming friends. About a year after you know we have we had traveled all together all of us and stuff and just built a good friendship and we’re at a mastermind Com was throwing in Miami and it were me and him were like the last two people of that night were at the pool area just chillin having a drink and you know just chillin and he said you know like so what else. You know the dating stuff. I don’t really think I can add any value to what you’re doing. You know it’s something that you know you’re you’re you’re just going to make some money but you’re not going to get rich off of it unless you get lucky and hit like a traffic source or something like that. And he kind of echoed what I was thinking. You know like my thoughts were like those those years at that point I was kind of on cruise control I kind of saw that I’d plateaued income-wise and I wasn’t really happy. I wasn’t really sure what I was going to do next or how it was going to grow it. You know it was very difficult to grow farther than kind of where I was at. I tried a lot of different things and things kind of just didn’t pan out. I told them I said you know like I bought this domain name for this for this software idea I had. So he said Tell me about it. I told him you know I bought this domain name. It’s called and he goes that’s that’s a good name but tell me about the software and I so I explained to him the story that was at a seminar in about maybe 2014 2013. And so this one guy was speaking and I think it was the guy from Mind Valley… Vishen or one of the guys or somebody from Mind Valley and he had this one slide up or he’s talking about e-mails and how they you know keep track of their e-mails and whatnot. And he said you know like here’s a spreadsheet that we use and he goes every day I have like one of our VAs or one of our employees they take like an hour or two everyday and they go through the system that’s just on this system this system and they start putting all the data you know and I was thinking to myself like why I like these dudes do like eight figures a year like 10 20 30 50 million dollars a year. They don’t have like some kind of system that bothers her. And I started digging and I couldn’t find anything. And I was like wow this is mind boggling, like how much how much do you pay a V.A. like every hour even if you just pay like 10 bucks an hour that’s 20 bucks a day you know five days a week seven days a week. That’s like 150 bucks a week you’re paying just for them to collect all this information. Right. It’s 150 bucks a week. So that by a month we’re looking at like 600 but 500 just to do this. So I’m telling this to Com and he’s like OK. Keep telling me so I have an idea for this software that actually does all this for you keeps track of your e-mail that lets you track everything you know optimize everything. Gives you data analytics on everything like that. So he goes actually that’s a really good idea. There’s nothing else like this on the market. And I was like really you know like that’s a good idea. You know what it’s pretty like we had a few drinks. So just to get confirmation from somebody that’s worth you know five six seven hundred million dollars and telling you like hey you that’s a good idea. That was that was like awesome you know that kind of gave me the boost you know that I needed. And he go and he told me he’s like you’ve got to build this thing. So you know like when though like the most the wealthiest person you’ve ever met in your entire life by a hundred times over tells you to… you build it. You know what I mean.

So I never built software before successfully. I tried a couple of times but never had much luck with it. So it took me like a month or two to find some software developers. The first guy I spoke with was a referral from a buddy of mine and he said this is the best software developer I’ve I’ve worked with like swore up and down. So I had sketches in my journal of the different pages of the software what I thought each page would do. So I sent him a pictures I took a picture of my iPhone send it to him and the first question he had for me was what’s an autoresponder?

David Allan: You’re like – this isn’t the guy.

Dave Miz: Yeah. Yeah. That’s where so I had another referral from a buddy of mine. And he said that you know he built his software and they did a good job and so we started chatting with the lead developer or the product manager or I sent them the screenshot from the from my iPhone through Skype. And the next day he got back to me with with questions and I was like shocked. I was like really shocked not just questions but he actually sounded like he understood what my like scribble like sketches and I was like wow this is this guy who actually understands what he’s talking about. He understands what I wrote and what I drew and he’s actually asking me intelligent questions. And we just started going back and forth and he goes yeah we can build this. I mean it’s a big project but you know I feel good with the guys that I have and I have a couple of guys that will be perfect for this. And so we started you know at first I didn’t know how long the product was going to be. We thought it was going to be a few months you know 19 months later here we are. So software always costs more and it takes like you know longer than you than you anticipate.

David Allan: Absolutely.

Dave Miz: So here we are and the the analytics engine on this thing is so complex and crazy it took us a year to build just the the engine for this. Forget about the front end or anything. Just the actual engine that powers this thing. So it’s it’s pretty it’s pretty bad ass man that you know and I figured at the very least I’m going to build it for myself. But if not if nobody else wanted to we’re going to use it for myself I’m the toughest critic you know out of anybody. So you know it had to look exactly the way I wanted it to look. I had to work exactly the way I wanted it to work and if it didn’t I was going to keep building it until it did. I just don’t believe in putting out shit. I won’t sell shit. I won’t put my name on anything that’s crap you know. So here we are with the software. It took forever to build. I was kind of hush hush about it for the first 15 or so months and then like slowly the last few months I kind of like been leaking out hints and you know stuff about it just because I felt like it we were so far into it there’s no way anybody can even touch you know copy or take or anything you know. You know what we’ve done you know so yeah. So we’re we’re just working on the release of it hopefully by the time people are listening to this it will be out. And you can grab it and hopefully use it really well and it’ll make you more money with your e-mail marketing.

David Allan: All right. Sounds great. Very exciting. For anyone that does email marketing. For most people listening to this they’re either involved with email marketing one way or another I’m sure.
So tell us a little bit about what this stuff can do what are what are the…

Dave Miz: You know normally like the big the biggest problem I guess with people when we’re sending out e-mails is you know like we’re sending out e-mails but we have no idea how these e-mails are doing. Right.

David Allan: So basically the response… all the analytics.

Dave Miz: Oh yes. Like let’s say for example you know you’re sending out an e-mail here podcast list right to all the listeners and you’re taught you’re talking about one specific topic but you have no idea if the listeners are actually going to respond to this topic. Right. And maybe you use a certain call to action in this email but you have no idea. That actually worked or not. So if you go to your eat you know like aWeber get response or any of that you know active campaign you know you’ll see clicks and opens or ends and click there right. That’s it. Yeah. Maybe you take it one step further and you use one of these ancient ad trackers you know like it built like 15 years ago and then you’ll see some basics stats on that. And you kind of wonder how accurate it is with a software that’s 10 to 15 years old and hasn’t been updated since. So that’s the next level up. But there’s really nothing else. What this system does is it allows you to track all of your e-mails. OK. So you’ll you’ll have complete marketing data like the data that we need you know and I was frustrated because I use a lot of stuff on click bank. So a lot of my offers are running on Click Bank but I love Click Bank. They’re awesome but they’re they’re reporting and stats system. So not for us you know like I just want to see how many of you know like what my average lifetime value is on this product. I can’t do that. I’ve got to do like some spreadsheet math computations. You know I want to see how this product is doing or how that’s doing. You know what my EPC is or or what not how much is a visitor worth or how much as a customer lifetime value. I can’t do any of that I can. I don’t have that. You know handy so we needed stats that we use you know like us in our industry. So like you know what’s the what’s the conversion rate on this email. You know what how do I know how this e-mail is converting. You know what the earning per click on this email. How much revenue has this e-mail generated. Because normally what we’ll do is you just log into your Clickbank account or JVZoo account or you’re you know or shopping cart you’ll see how much money they make for the day. But you have no idea how that actually the how that e-mail that you sent actually did.

David Allan: You don’t know where they came from.

Dave Miz: Exactly. Or what about your campaigns your… Forget about broadcast for a second if you have like follow up campaigns how do you know how these campaigns are doing and

David Allan: Which e-mail maybe triggered selling best and so forth that we’ve always sort of speculated on which ones you know at what point in this follow up did they decide to go in.

Dave Miz: Exactly like wouldn’t it be great to see like right at a glance. OK. This email campaign is doing being you know converting at you know five and a half percent. I made you know 12 and a half thousand six hundred dollars from this campaign. The lifetime value on this campaign is you know $210 per person. You know wouldn’t that be awesome to have.

David Allan: It makes things a lot easier. A lot ofdecisions would be easier.

Dave Miz: Yeah so the system does that and it does tons and tons of stuff more so it tells you the lifetime value for each campaign. One of the cool things that I added in was how long does it take conversion to happen. So like if you’re buying traffic you’re buying Facebook ads or whatever. How long does it take you to turn a lead into a buyer. So the system will actually tell you once you have it set up it will tell you OK it takes you you know 84 days. You know so if you know that you know how long you have to float your money for you know in order to recover your money.

David Allan: And expectation wise to educate people perhaps on this podcast. This is a freelance business because you know you can just set expectations too. Manage client expectations.

Dave Miz: Absolutely. Absolutely. And then the cool thing is for people that are not tech savvy you know I’m not I wouldn’t consider. I mean I don’t consider myself tech savvy even though I’m a little technical. I have to make sure that this was easy to use and simple to set up. Right. So we actually spent about three months just working on the setup to make it really really easy to use there was like four steps and that’s it. I mean I’m like you can do it but I was hire a programmer. You know if you can make it make a link in aWeber or any of the email providers you can set this up. I mean it’s just simple. It’s about us. Yeah so it doesn’t. You don’t have to be sending out tons of emails. You just have to have a list. You know if you have a list and you’re sending out e-mails any kind of e-mails you know this thing will work. So one of the cool things that it does is it actually scores your e-mails for you. So it’ll it’ll categorize and the campaigns like your best e-mails and your worst emails. So like going back to this podcast the e-mails let’s say you know you try a few different topics or subjects or whatnot it’ll show you what’s your worst performing ones. So you’ll see OK like this e-mail that I sent out yesterday isn’t really performing well maybe that topic isn’t good. Right. So it got to know not use that topic again you know or you’ll go by the best performing e-mails and you’ll say OK like these kind of topics are doing pretty good. Let me just keep writing up these topics because I know that they can work well.

David Allan: That’s great. It’s really easy.

Dave Miz: And then the other cool thing that it does is the demographic. This is where it gets like totally crazy. It’s what it does. So because we have all these smart pixel we call it on your pages we’re able to collect a ton of data on your Buyers. Stuff that you would never even know. So let’s say for example David you’re buying Facebook ads check and you have this campaign running. You’ll just go into the demographics section you’ll you’ll click. You know let’s say USA. And that will tell you your best performing and the worst performing states what you’ll do is you’ll just exclude the worst performing states. Maybe from your current ads or maybe just set up a new campaign only with your best performing states.

David Allan: So you could just hone it right down to exactly who was responding.

Dave Miz: Exactly. And you’re ROI just from the get go will skyrocket and you’ll be age you’ll be able to do this also for for countries you know as well. So we’ve been even able to drill down by city.

David Allan: By city. That’s crazy.

Dave Miz: So I don’t even know if Facebook ads can do it by city. I have a guy running ads for us so I’m really too familiar with the stuff because we can’t do it and dating and do Facebook. So that’s that’s another reason why dating sucks. And I always thought people would always ask me David like you know I want to get into the dating niche and I would always tell them no it sucks. And people always think like you’re being so negative. You know it just really sucks.

David Allan: You missed the wave

Dave Miz: You miss the boat and you’re like 10 years too late and so we can dive in even deeper we can go into the system data so we’ll know your conversions based on like Windows or PC or Mac or PC. We can do it by browser type. So you’ll be able to know which browsers are producing the conversions in the campaigns and even down to the device type whether it’s you know iPhone Android iPad. And then really the whole thing is we’re able to tell you which e-mail provider conversions by email provider whether it’s Gmail Yahoo. You know email AOL or Hotmail. So in this case let’s say you have a lot of you know your list. You’ve seen the e-mails in your list. You know you have a lot of G-mail e-mails but you look at this chart here and you see that Gmail is producing the least amount of sales for you. You kind of know at this point that you have an inboxing issue probably gmail.

David Allan: So you could be somewhat of a email detective this the analytics

Dave Miz: Yeah it really just gives you stuff that we that we need right.

David Allan: That’s what it sounds like. Put a shit ton of work into this.

Dave Miz: Yeah a lot of work and a lot of a lot of money. So yeah but it looks awesome. I’ll show you a demo when we when we’re done with the call with you what we can do a video call if you want. And I’ll show you around it.

David Allan: People should be really excited about this because that sounds real in-depth. Like you said it just collects all the data you wish you had if you were in the internet marketing industry.

Dave Miz: Yeah, like all the stuff you wish you had.

David Allan: Yeah. that people talk about you know in passing. Like I wish – if only we could do this. Yes. So that’s a this could be very big for you. So this is this is your latest project.

Dave Miz: This is my baby. This is my baby.

David Allan: This is your internet dating for the year 2017.

Dave Miz: Yeah right. Like took it to a whole another level. The dating stuff is kind of on autopilot. But golf clubs kind of on autopilot and yeah. So I I wanted to try to swing for the fences with us. You know like you know I have big aspirations and I felt like I wasn’t really performing up to you know what I was capable of and I figured you know what like let me take a shot out with somebody that’s worth half a billion dollars says this is a good idea and it’s worth a shot.

David Allan: Exactly. That’s worth a shot.

So when people – you mentioned the e-mail address probably about half an hour ago, so I assume it’s the same email address autoresponderanalytics…

Dave Miz: Yeah

David Allan: And is there I know this will be released probably around the end of January. Is there a specific day you guys already set for when this is coming out?

Dave Miz: You know I’m real bad with that stuff. It’s definitely like a flaw or character flaw with me. I’m just like a scatterbrain. I think that’s probably all creative people are like that. I need to set a date for it but I just want to make sure that we have all our you know present all the yeah all the ducks in a row. You know all the stuff with the payment system and all these little loose ends I’ve got a page full of notes here that I’ve got to like make sure everything is done. So hopefully at the end of the month or beginning of February we will do like a soft release. We’ll do like 100 spots at first just to bring in a couple hundred users. Make sure everybody’s using the system and is able to use it successfully and yeah it just will get the bugs out if there’s any bugs from the users and then really just get new feature requests. You know I want to make sure that we have all the features. The main one is that everybody needs. And then we can start scaling up the development team. So everything everything that comes in is going right back into development so that you know we can turn this into like you know the go-to platform in the industry.

David Allan: Awesome. Thanks a lot. And that’s really I think people are going to be very excited. I know listen to this. It’s got a lot of potential and I hope it really pays off. It just sounds like you really put the work you deserve it.

Dave Miz: Well I hope everybody gets a lot of value out of that tool. You know I think if it’s it’s it’s an awesome to want to know that it’s going to help. You know anybody that’s sending out e-mails is going to help them.

David Allan: If people want to get in touch with you personally…

Dave Miz: Let’s put it this way just hit me up on Facebook. OK. Yeah just Dave Miz. And yeah I’m on Facebook all day. Just you know shooting the shit while I’m working.

David Allan: Well thanks again Dave. For coming on the show.

Dave Miz: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

David Allan: And of course we’ll be back again next week with another exciting guess hopefully as exciting as Dave because I think that was fantastic. Until next time

The post Episode #145 – Dave Miz On Game-Changing Email Software Every Marketer Will Kill For appeared first on McMethod.

Jan 31 2017



Rank #12: Episode #44 – David Deutsch On Uncovering Emotional “Hot Buttons” that Make Prospects Buy

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You may not have heard of David Deutsch.

He’s a Hall-of-Fame copywriter.

David’s been writing ads for decades…

He’s sold millions of dollars of clients’ products.

From copywriting at legendary agency Ogilvy & Mather on Madison Avenue – 

…to penning direct mail pieces for giants like Maxwell House Coffee.

These days, David’s a HIGHLY-SOUGHT consultant the PROS turn to.

Here David opens the kimono on getting prospects on a SLIPPERY SLOPE.

Getting them to nod their head yes

…and slide into buying.

His secret?

Uncovering emotional “hot buttons.”

Find them – and you can press them to get prospects to BUY.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • 3 gold-sifting questions to ask YOUR prospects and uncover hot buttons
  • why the secret to great copy is LISTENING
  • a sophisticated hook that challenges prospects (and make them want to buy)
  • how to turn interviews into INSIGHTS
  • the key marketing skill all children display naturally
  • why you’re doing customers a disservice by NOT convincing them to buy
  • one subtle variable David noticed the world’s highest-paid copywriters all concentrate on (HINT: not tactics or strategies)


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

Raw transcript:

Download PDF transcript here.

John: It’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder Guy. I’m here with David Deutsch, frequently referred to as one of the top direct response marketing consultants and copywriters in the country. David’s copy has sold hundreds of millions of dollars worth of clients’ products and this includes everything from books, seminars, newsletters, Maxwell House coffee and Uniroyal Tires.

His advertising career started at the renowned Ogilvy and Mather advertising agency on Madison Avenue. He’s worked with all types of companies from Fortune 500 companies, such as Merrill Lynch, General Foods, American Express to small businesses and entrepreneurs. These days, he’s mostly writing for and consulting with companies who sell information and advice in print. This is in print, online and through seminars.

Today, we’re going to talk about how he’s applying all the skills he’s developed to email marketing. We’re going to take a broader look at the marketing process as a whole. It’s going to be very interesting.

David, how are you today?

David: I’m great, I’m great. It’s finally warmed up here.

John: I was telling people the same thing here in Thailand. Warm up here is from 25 degrees Celsius to 30 degrees Celsius. It’s gone from warm to hot basically.

David: I just wish I was there in Thailand now.

John: Alright so let’s, before we get into the email marketing stuff and the marketing as a process, may be tell the listener a little more about you and may be a bit more about what you’ve been doing lately.

David: I started out in traditional advertising, as you said, at Ogilvy and Mather working at an ad agency and worked at various ad agencies and then discovered direct mail, basically through Jay Abraham, was kind of taken with him and his philosophy about marketing and the accountability of marketing and direct response.

I work a lot with publisher of books and newsletters and things like that, information publishers. As you said, I’ve also worked with bunches of big companies and little companies, online, in print and of course these days more and more is online.

John: Okay, okay. I’m curious what specifically have you been doing online? Just emails, sales letters or the whole thing?

David: The whole thing. Yeah, as we discussed before I see it as an overall process of developing a sales letter, developing the emails that lead people to that sales letter, developing the emails may be that affiliates use, all those things go together. Banner ads.

John: Okay, okay. I like this idea and we were just talking about this before, before I hit the record button, but I’m sure there’s some people who are going to be listening to this who will think about email marketing or even just email, building a list out of email as an isolation as though it is something you just use on its own.

What you’re talking about is that it’s really just part, it’s one piece of the puzzle and if you look at all these different pieces, like banner ads and affiliates and JVs and email marketing and paid traffic like Facebook ads and Google ads and all these different things but there’s something that ties the whole thing together. May be you call it the big picture.

How do you explain that high level overview of what’s important when you’re looking at the whole thing as a process?

David: I guess to me the thing that ties it together, to me as a writer, the thing that ties it together is the concept behind it, the idea behind it. In other words, for instance, what hot buttons are you hitting and if you know what works, what people respond to then that should ideally matter, manifest itself in your emails as well as in your landing page.

One interesting thing to me, I guess is how you can use emails, Internet marketing for testing things. Another words, it takes a long time to write a sales letter and you like to know, “Okay, what are the hot buttons that people are interested in?” Sometimes you can use emails to test out what hot buttons people are interested in.

You send an email and you push this hot button and they don’t respond to that very much, so you try it again, may be a different subject line and you see, “Oh, they really respond to this subject line, they really respond to this kind of content in the email. Let me write this, when I write the sales letter than I know I should I feature that in the headline and I know I should feature that in my presentation.”

John: Okay. I think this is really important that, the idea that before you sit down to write a word of copy or write a landing page or write emails, think about the autoresponder or the launch or whatever it happens to be, that whoever’s doing it, the entrepreneur or the copywriter, they have to have … They have to take the time to get an idea about what problems they’re actually solving. What are the pain points?

David: Right, right. I think that’s the main thing is what’s the pain point? How is it that your product or service or whatever it is, how is it that you can help with that?

John: Okay, what I’m interested in is, I find this a fascinating topic because I’ve found as I’ve practiced copyrighting and studied it, it’s that once you get a good idea of how to actually write the copy, the big win after that is spending a large amount of your day, if not a majority of your time on just identifying the hot buttons.

After you’ve done all that then just the copy will write itself. It’s just once you get that basic, once you get some decent chops down that the most important part is really taking the time to understand these hot buttons.

If someone’s listening and they want to go and do this, they want to go and find out this hot buttons, they probably have some idea already because they’re familiar with the market, they’ve done a little research. What do you suggest to people who would want to go and find out these hot buttons?

David: I think the main thing is … One of the main things, I guess, is to talk to people, who you are writing to, talk to the typical prospect and see what kind of things come up. See what kind of things come up or when you start talking about my product does this, does that generate a response in them? Do they seem excited about that? Do they want to know more? What is it that gets their attention?

John: I’m curious when you were back on Ogilvy and Mather and doing a lot of the writing then did you … What tricks or strategies did you use to figure out these hot buttons?

David: When I was at Ogilvy, of course, they had a very sophisticated market research department, they did focus groups, so they got typical prospects in a room talking about how they relate to the product and you could see from that because it’s hot buttons is one part of it.

Another part of it, I think is talking about the problem and the solution in the vocabulary that people, who are prospects, use. In other words, if you’re talking to people, let’s say, that have arthritis then they talk about arthritis pain in a certain way. There are certain things that happen when you have arthritis. For instance, it’s hard to open a door, just twisting on a door handle could be very painful.

If you don’t have arthritis that might not be thinking, that might not be something that you would think to talk about when you talk about the pain of arthritis. If you do talk about it then they go, “Oh this is a person that knows how it is, this is a person that knows what I’m going through.”

John: Right, right. If someone doesn’t have sophisticated research firms or focus groups or anything like that, what are some of the ways they can these kinds of insights? Are you suggesting say calling up a prospect and interviewing them for …

David: Yeah.

John: Yeah. Okay.

David: Yeah, calling and interviewing, going to see them. If it’s a general enough product, you can talk to your friends, if they’re people that might use it. The other thing nowadays that’s so nice is that you’ve got on the Internet, you’ve got forums, you’ve got people talking that you can listen in on on the Internet and see what conversations they having about this product or service or whatever it is that you’re writing about.

John: People should be looking for the specific ways in which their prospects are talking? Look for phrases and slang, I know exactly what you mean, I’m trying to figure out how to describe it properly for the listener but the idea is you’ve got to go out there and you’ve got to get the prospect talking so you can hear how that conversation is going in that head including the words they’re using to describe their problem, like about that door.

You say arthritis, people with arthritis, they’re all having the same kind of experience but unless you have arthritis it’s going to be very hard or you know someone who has it, it’s going to be very hard to know exactly what those experiences are.

If you can find out what they are and then put them into the same words, describe them in the same way that the 80 year old down the road describes it her friends at Bingo. If you can describe it like that in the sales that are in the emails in all the marketing it just clicks, it resonates, doesn’t it?

David: Yes, it absolutely does. If it doesn’t then you seem like a fraud. The more specialized the market or industry or whatever, the easier it is to seem like you don’t know what you’re talking about or you’re not one of us.

John: Right, you’re just a marketer or an advertiser trying to sell something.

David: Yeah, you’re just trying to sell me something, exactly.

John: You’ve spoken with people, you’ve spoken with prospects before, you’ve done this before, right?

David: Right.

John: Do you have a go to question, may be three go to questions that you would ask someone. You’re on the phone, may be you’ve met them for coffee, I don’t know the exact scenario but what … How do you guide this conversation? How do you personally guide it and dive into … How do you get info, how do you get the insights like this idea to opening the door with arthritis is very hard?

David: I think there’s a couple of things. One is that you want to talk to them about their pain and with arthritis that’s very literal but with someone else if they’re selling a service to businessmen or something, you want to talk about the pain, what is it that they’re looking for your product or service to solve.

What are they bothered by? What frustrates them? You want to know what keeps them up at night. What are they afraid of? What are they afraid of happening? What are they worry is going to happen? Then conversely, what do they dream about happening? What do they want to happen? What is success look like to them, for the arthritis person being pain free, for the business person? What is success in that business look like? Especially in terms of whatever it is that your product or service does.

What is a typical day look like for them? That’s where they’re turning the door handle thing comes in. What happens? What do they do? What do they spend their days doing? Then you can position your product or service more and more in terms of who they are and what they do.

I think that’s a real good thing to ask about and then what have they tried? What products or services … What have they tried to overcome this pain or solve this problem that you can solve for them? Because you want to also position your product in relation to other possible solutions.

John: Okay and understand where it fits. I think the really interesting thing about this is that copywriting and marketing, it’s a very creative endeavor where you’re producing something but the secret to doing it well is actually, you start by listening not by writing something down.

David: Yes, that’s very true. That’s very true, sometimes you listen good enough and long enough and they’ll write the ad for you. Between talking to the prospect and talking to the client, if you’re working for a client.
If you’re working for yourself you have to talk to yourself in a certain way and interview yourself and that may sound funny in a way but you really can carry on a dialogue with yourself in terms of questions that you ask yourself. The best marketers, the best thinkers that I know are people that ask themselves questions.

John: I will admit that sometimes when I have a problem, I will go for a walk and I will talk to myself out somewhere where no one can hear me and I will go and talk to myself and so I walk and strangely I find it’s a real effective way to solve problems because it’s almost that by speaking the thought out loud it forces me to express it in a certain way and then that leads me naturally to the solution. Sometimes it’s easy to be jumbled up in your head.

David: Yeah, that’s definitely true. We can have a whole two hour conversation about thinking and all that but it’s hard to get your brain engaged. It’s hard to really make yourself think and when you talk, be it out loud or to yourself or whatever, it really forces you to think something through. I think that’s great that you talk to yourself.

John: That’s good to know. I hope the listener doesn’t think I’m too crazy.

David: The rest of the world might think you’re crazy but I don’t.

John: You know what I’ve actually seen, maybe this is just a cop out but I swear there’s a study out there that says smart people talk themselves.

David: Yeah and I think that’s why. We can laugh but I think the truth of the matter is that talking to yourself engages your thinking and your thought process. I don’t know about you but I start thinking about how I’m going to solve a problem and if I’m just thinking about it, pretty soon I’m thinking about what’s for lunch and what’s for dinner and what I’m going to do and may be I should watch something on … May be I should check out this website. If you’re sitting there talking to yourself, you’re keeping yourself on track.

John: Absolutely, that’s a great point because you could be thinking or you could be thinking, thinking could be just vague and you can just sit there and your thoughts float around like clouds or you can do that really focused thinking and it’s the focused thinking which actually solves these kinds of problems.

David: Right, right. Let me turn that a little bit too toward copywriting, which is I think that copywriting to me is basically it’s talking, you’re talking to the prospect. I think that one thing that people can do as they’re trying to write things is really to just talk it. Talk it out loud, talk it other people, try and sell the product or service to other people.
That’s also how you generate good copy. Is just what happens when you try to sell it to someone, what happens when you try to pretend you’re selling it to someone? What do you say? It’s a little awkward at first to do that but it’s a great technique for generating the words that you should be putting on the page or on the screen.

John: I like the idea of sitting and recording yourself because sometimes those spontaneous thoughts that just pop out of the brain, pop into the brain that end up being some of the best parts of the copy.

David: Right. Right, exactly. Then getting back to, you were talking about, this is just really looping around but when you were talking about interviewing people and again I think this applies to interviewing the prospects or interviewing clients that you’re working for, I think it’s really important to be open ended just like you are with these interviews.

Just get people talking because if you just get people talking, they’ll eventually say the most profound useful things that they wouldn’t have thought to bring up on their own or you might not have gotten out through questions.

John: Right, that’s a good point.

David: Preferably over a few drinks too is always helpful.

John: Absolutely. That’s a really good point that when you start, if you go into an interview like this, when you’re talking with a prospect with a preconceived notion or ideas in your head about how the prospect is or what they should care about or what they do care about, it will … This is to the listener, without noticing it’s going to, it will make you ask certain questions in certain ways which will almost lead the prospect into talking about things and may be even confirming what you’re saying.

That’s another thing, like you said, leave your expectations at the door and go into and just go into discover because unless you’ve spoken to these prospects before and unless you’ve taken some time to understand them, you’re going to have a bunch of assumptions. What you really want to do is go in there and test those assumptions, instead of thinking, “It’s not an assumption, it’s definitely true.” You go in and test because maybe it’s not true.

David: Right. Right and may be there’s an assumption that you haven’t thought of.

John: Yeah.

David: May be there’s something that’s not one of your assumptions that you want to bring out and you need to give them the chance to … You need to have the chance to uncover that.

John: Moving it back to copywriting and marketing, once you’ve done this, let’s say you’ve spoken to a bunch of different prospects and you’ve done all the things we’ve just talked about, what’s next? I’ve taught so many people to do this type of thing and I think it’s pretty simple but I think a lot of people struggle with this. First, with just the fact of getting the idea that they have to go out there and talk to their prospects before they write copy but what’s next? How do you convert these insights into powerful persuasive copy and marketing?

David: There’s a couple of things, one is as we talked about, what would you say to someone to convince them to buy your product or service based on what you’ve learned about what they want, what their pain is, what they’re looking for?

Sitting across from someone that you just met in a bar, what would you say? What would you say to get … Like, “Joe, there’s a way that you can cure your arthritis pain by using an herb that you find in your backyard.” That’s a little more open ended and that’s good for generating some good raw material.

Then the other is there’s not but a dozen or so different ways of presenting an idea in an ad or in a letter. There’s a straightforward kind of a sale, “This can do this, here’s how it works.” You could ask a question, you can promote a challenge, you can challenge the reader, “Isn’t time you got rid of your arthritis pain or whatever?” You can highlight how to do something without something, “How to cure arthritis without drugs, how to make more money in your business without working harder.”

If you look through ads, if you really study ads, if you study copywriting. You see that there’s certain templates, certain formulas that you can use so just try running stuff through those templates just like I just did with arthritis or making money.

John: Right, right, yeah.

David: Don’t be slavish about it, don’t steal another ad word for word but just see what happens when you use that template, that general format. That general way of presenting an idea, that general way of selling someone on something.

John: I think this is a bit like, everybody’s been three or four years old or eight years old and we can’t all remember it but we’ve all been up in that position where we want something from our mom or our dad and they don’t want to give it to us but we’ve got a plan and we know how we can manipulate them or essentially just sell them on giving us what we want.

May be we want a day off from school so we do something to get them to give us a day off because we know what their hot buttons are, we understand our parents so well even at that age that we know intuitively how to get them to do what we want them to do. All kids know this.

It’s a bit like that, that when you … If you didn’t understand your parents and you really didn’t know them very well it might be very, very hard to do this. You wouldn’t be able to push their buttons but when you’ve taken the time and this is just like with the marketing, if you don’t understand the people with arthritis, it’s going to be the same. You can’t push the buttons, if you can’t see them.

If you take the time to start and go out there and find out what all those buttons are, when you finally sit down at a sales letter and with a general idea of what you want to say, it’s all just going to … You’re going to be like that kid who knows exactly what buttons to press and exactly what will probably work.

David: Yeah, exactly.

John: Then it’s a matter of testing.

David: I mean one parent might be really into their kid culturally learning more about culture so that kid might have to say, “You know Dad, wouldn’t it be great if I stayed home and went to a museum today instead of going to school.” Another dad may want their kid to be responsible and earn money so the kid might say, “Dad, I want to stay home from school today so I can cut the neighbor’s yard and earn some money or figure out how to do a business online.”
That’s where knowing your parent, knowing your customer, knowing your prospect comes in because one approach, that approach isn’t going to work with the other parent. The staying home and making money isn’t going to work for the parent that’s into their kid being cultured and the stay home and going to a museum isn’t going to work for the parent that wants their kid to be responsible and make money.

It’s the same thing to prospects. If you’re not talking to them in terms of what they want, their hot buttons, you’re wasting so much.

John: I would say some people too, they get stuck inside their head, thinking that … I’m not sure, I’ve been there and I’ve done this and I think everyone’s probably been there at some point but it’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking you know what’s best for your prospects, just like a parent thinks what’s best for their kids.
Just because the parent thinks it’s best for their kids, doesn’t mean the kid wants to do it or anything like that. When someone sits down to write a sales letter, an email or create some marketing, if they go into it thinking, even unconsciously thinking, that someone should want their product because it’s going to help them or for whatever reason like that.

They should want it because it’s going to be healthy for them or because it’s going to help them achieve their goal or all of these different things, which don’t tie into the hot buttons which is this person’s slightly depressed and opening doors, to go to that arthritis again, opening doors is really hard.

If you can’t touch those things but you’re just saying, “They should want it, they should want it” without understanding them. I think a lot of people have that problem.

David: Yeah, I think that’s definitely true. I think there’s a lot of mistakes that people make, I think. They’re either assuming the wrong hot buttons that people have or not really even thinking through what are the hot buttons. Not really knowing what are the hot buttons, but just writing and that’s where again, the whole thing of talking like you’re talking to a prospect comes in.

I think sometimes people just write, they just get words on paper and they forget that they’re really selling to a prospect. They forget that they’re really having to convince this skeptical prospect to keep reading what you’re writing, to keep reading what you’re sending them and to reach into their wallet and buy from you.
That’s hard to do with just words, you’ve got to do that … You’ve got to have the right hot buttons, emotions. You’ve got to be pushing the right buttons.

John: There’s an issue here that where that ties in really well is that people do … Some people think that people hate sales and they don’t want to be sold to and all this stuff like that and I think that’s a load of crap because everyone has problems and everyone wants solutions to those problems.

The job of the marketer or salesman or copywriter is to simply remove all of the barriers, the limiting beliefs or whatever standing in the way of that person going out there and buying the solutions to their problem. If you have the solutions to their problem, all you have to do is just knock out those barriers that are stopping them from taking action because may be they don’t trust you or may be they’re not confident enough today or may be they feel like they can’t afford it.

There’s all sorts of reasons they may not do it and if you can just knock those barriers out of the way, someone will just slide down that slippery slope, it’s that they’ll always buy what they want if you can just … They have that momentum, they’re going to buy it but your job is just to … I’m not sure how to explain this exactly but it’s just basically a big slippery slope and that people are always looking for solutions to their problems.

If you say the right things and figure out exactly what those problems are and how your product really solves those problems then it’s a no brainer. It’s basically if you can give someone what they want in exchange for them giving you something they consider of less of value then the solution that you are giving them, they’ll buy it. It’s simple as that.
David: Yeah, I think it’s a good way to put it. It’s practically a disservice not to have them buy it. Not to do everything you can to convince them. It’s interesting, it’s almost two ways of looking at it. One way of looking at it is that here’s a person who’s bored and has really no interest to start with in what you’re doing and you’ve got to do everything you can to get their attention and get them interested.

Assuming that can be very, very powerful in terms of the state of mind that you’re in to write copy because we tend to think that someone is going to read what we’ve written just because we’re putting it in front of them and they’re not, they’re busy, it’s in their inbox with 100 other things. It’s basically unlikely they’re going to read what you’ve written.

You bring up something interesting too, which is you can almost start from the assumption that if what you have truly is a solution to them then they’re going to want what you have.

From the other point of view too, you have to not do the things that are going to prevent them from buying what you have because in a way they want to not buy what you have. They don’t want to spend the money, they’ve been disappointed before so they’re going to be looking for you to say something that’s not believable, they’re going to be looking for you to say something that indicates that you don’t know who they are.

If you can avoid doing all those things, as you said, that slippery slope, they’ll keep sliding down that slippery slope.
John: That’s a cool way of framing it up. I like that how it’s almost like you said, I’m trying to do everything right, just try not to do anything wrong because they already want what you’re having and if you just don’t mess it up, it’s kind of like when you go on a date and you take a girl out to dinner and she’s already into you.

If you just don’t mess it up at that point then may be you’ll get married or may be you get laid that night, whatever. The point is that you don’t have to do everything right, you just have to not do anything wrong.

David: Yeah, yeah. That’s a real good point and it’s really easy to do things wrong in copy. You said people don’t like sales kind of things and that’s true in a way, it depends on how you define sales. They don’t like salesy, hypey, obvious kind of plays that manipulate them.

They do enjoy a good story, they do enjoy being sold by a good salesman. They just don’t like the feel like they’re being unfairly manipulated.

John: Right, it’s kind of like … Yeah.

David: Yeah, if you can avoid that, if you can build trust and bond with them and not say things that are going to make them put down the ad or not buy or delete your email then you’re halfway there.

John: Absolutely.

David: These are all in a way, ways of looking through your copy after you’ve written it and saying, “Okay, at what point do I lose the reader, at what point does he start not believing it? At what point, is he going to say this is bullshit? At what point, do I say something that tips my hand that I’m just being too much of salesman here?”

John: Yup, I’ve known people that have done that with, you probably did too, where you basically take a sales letter and you watch someone read it and you see what their eyes, you can do this with software on websites with eye testing or heat tracking, I think it’s called.

David: Right.

John: You can check where people fall off. How far down the page they get. When they get confused.

David: Yeah, no, definitely. You can do it by giving it to them to read or you can read it aloud to them and just see where they start wandering off and getting bored. Eventually too, you’ve got to have an internal sensor for that kind of thing. You’ve got to be able to read copy, read your own copy and see where, almost like you’re playing the reader. Almost by method acting, you become the prospect. Where do you lose him?

John: Right, okay, okay. This has been very interesting. A bit of a meander through how to research and how to … I think this extremely important stuff and if people get this right, everything else just flows. Everyone wants the tactics, everyone wants to hear about great subject lines and great emails and how to make a ton of money and all those kinds of things. Those shiny objects but the really, really, really important stuff that’s going to lay a foundation for just all the other stuff is what we’ve talked about today.

It can be a little bit dry or may be a bit boring, I hope it hasn’t been boring but this is where everything else comes from. This is that piece that ties all the other pieces together.

David: Yeah, that’s true. It’s interesting when you talk about tactics and all that stuff, which has its place but I remember realizing once in talking to a lot of the writers that I’ve admired over the years and I wanted to know what tactics and strategies they used and what their secrets were. It struck me that in talking to them a lot of the time that they didn’t talk about strategies and tactics and things like that, they talked about the market.
They talked about where the market was going and what people were thinking and what they were reacting to and what their hot buttons were and how things were changing. How they were becoming more sophisticated or how they were looking for this instead of that.

Eventually I realized that was really their secret, was not that they knew more strategies and tactics and ways of doing things but they just had this passion for understanding their market and almost like an empathetic kind of approach to it.

John: I love this idea that you can’t … Like it’s about the market, as entrepreneurs that we have to serve what the market wants. You can’t go into the marketplace and convince people to buy what they don’t want, it’s just not how the free market works. People take their money and they spend it elsewhere.

It’s that all trade, this is getting real deep now, but all trade or barter, where you exchange some form of value for another form of value, that’s only ever going to happen in a free market if someone wants it. That’s why it’s so much more important rather than looking at crazy cool ad strategies and copywriting tactics and all that stuff that just look at the market.

What does the market want? Then just give them what they want. It’s like Gary Holmes, how the single advantage, I think he mentioned it, the only advantage he’d want is a starving crowd, if you have that the rest is easy.

David: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Gene Schwartz too said, “That all we’re doing is channeling desire, we’re not creating it.”

John: Yes.

David: You’ve got to channel what’s already there.

John: I like that. I like that. I think let’s end on that. Before we go tell people, I don’t know if you do coaching or anything like that but where can people learn more about you if they want to learn more.

David: Okay, yeah, no. I do a lot of coaching these days. More and more I enjoy helping other people in their writing or helping companies work with their copywriters or work on their marketing as a creative director or copy supervisor. In addition to doing writing but if I spend the whole day writing, I go a little crazy so I like to divide that up 50/50 between writing and telling other people what to write.

If anyone wants to get in touch with me or whatever, my website is I better spell that out for you. It’s David, L as in Larry and then Deutsch, D-E-U-T-S-C-H dot com.

John: Great, fantastic. I’ll have the link to that in the [inaudible 00:36:47] notes at the

David: Good.

John: Yes, people can go to the website, click the link and go over. If they’re interested in coaching or consulting, they should … It looks like you do speaking as well, they can just go to your website to the contact page and send you an email, right?

David: Yeah and there’s is a free thing about the “Copywriting from A to Z”, I think is the special report that’s free there.

John: Okay, so they can join your list and see.

David: Yup, I get them on my list just like you train people to do. To develop a list.

John: Just quickly, I’m curious what do you send out to them, what’s your … Give me a quick rundown, what’s email strategy after someone signs up?

David: Oh God, don’t ask me that. It’s like the shoemaker’s kids having no shoes. I’ve got a course on creativity that I sell on the site and a series of interviews that I’ve done with copywriters and copywriting entrepreneurs that I did a while ago. That’s on there but I don’t really have an autoresponder series and I know that I should.

John: Okay, okay.

David: You don’t have to worry about being inundated by emails if you sign up for my email list.

John: It’s funny because I send people daily emails so if you want to receive less emails go and sign up to your list.

David: I know I should, I really should do that.

John: If you want to learn more about email marketing, David, there’s a podcast that I know about, let me know if …

David: That’s a good idea. I’ll have to listen.

John: I’ll send you a link, man. Thank you. Thanks David for coming on.

David: My pleasure, John. Good to talk to you.

The post Episode #44 – David Deutsch On Uncovering Emotional “Hot Buttons” that Make Prospects Buy appeared first on McMethod.

Mar 04 2014



Rank #13: Episode #153 – Craig Simpson On A 46 Billion Dollar “Secret” To 5X Your Business In 18 Months.(Bonus – A Client’s View On Low-Class Jackass Copywriters!)

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Craig Simpson started making fake rocks in his parents garage.

What he learned first from a marketing book and then trial and error led him to sell 4000 of ’em.

When he joined a direct response company they threw the classics at him.

Claude Hopkins…

Robert Collier…

David Ogilvy.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Unlike other guests on the podcast, though, Craig deals in what is becoming a more “hush-hush” media.

Direct mail.

From an eye-opening study of lifetime customer value…

to what the internet is doing to copywriting…

This interview with Craig is spillling over with marketing nuggets.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • How backyard rock-climbing led Craig into his current marketing career
  • Which marketing classics? (The book he recommends if you want to learn how to persuade like a pro)
  • Why the internet has scared people away from direct mail and the consequences.
  • 150,000 people can’t be wrong. How to increase lifetime customer value five-fold in 18 months.
  • Are we witnessing the death of copywriter royalties? Craig weighs in – AND copywriter blunders that drive clients crazy!


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey, everybody we’re back with another edition of the podcast we have another exciting guest on today. He is a direct mail specialist and he has coauthored many books with some of people that I’ve learned from. And his latest one is called The Advertising Solution with Brian Kurtz… Craig Simpson…Welcome to the show.

Craig Simpson: Great thank you for having me. I appreciate being on the show today and get a chance to talk to you.

David Allan: Yeah you know you’re somebody I’ve heard about for quite a few years now when I got started in copywriting I heard your name sort of bounced around a bit. I’ve read some of the books you’ve coauthored with Dan Kennedy. And it’s interesting to sort of put a voice and in this case a face because I have the book in front of me and said that you’ve just heard about for a while in sort of a mix around in the same circles. So maybe like we like to do start from this sort of your humble beginnings and give us the trajectory of how you arrived at where you’re at today.

Craig Simpson: Sure. You know I got into marketing a really interesting way. I was about 18 years old and I had built this 20 foot high fake rock climbing wall in my parent’s backyard they live in the home I was really into rock climbing and so I scraped together a few nickel and dime. I built the you know everything I had. I built the rock climbing wall. And when I was done building it I had no money left to buy the little fake hold that you bought on the wall. And so I started messing around with some different polyester thing and then I found a formula that made these really cool fake rock climbing. And so my buddy came over and they climbed in the water I had made these holes and everyone loved them and they said

great you should start selling them. And so I thought OK all I’ll now these big rock. Well I went into business for myself at 18 18 years old making fake rocks. And of course you know I had to market the business so I started testing all these different types of marketing. I tried magazine and print campaigns and they are of course the direct mail and my first direct mail campaign I wrote this letter and I put a brochure in with it and I mailed it off to like 250 people.

And I stopped by the phone and I thought Man the phone is going to ring off the hook because I told people it’s going to be amazing. Right. That’s how we feel with you. Absolutely. We think we’ve got the best campaign in the world.

So I sat by my phone and it didn’t ring right.

I mean that we would find now though this goes on my part. All the money and I licked all the CMs individually in both the addresses and I got their response but I didn’t give up and I kept on testing and I eventually found a solution that worked a system that works and I ended up selling over 4000 fake rock to the bone.

Yeah. Nice so.

Yeah. So end you know they sold this you know 18 19 years old and they sold anywhere from $2 to $5 a piece so I was bringing in pretty good money doing that.

Awesome. And so what I found is that I love this marketing thing I’ll do a campaign. And I was so excited when the phone rang and I was so excited. A credit card numbers.

I mean who doesn’t like to I’m guilty and then processing them and then look at the bank account.

Those were wonderful days. But the part that I hated as soon as I took that order my stomach was thinking like oh I’ve got to go out to my sweat shop which my parents garage and make all these things because I made them by hand one by one by one. And I hated that part of it though. I love the marketing and fell in love with marketing and testing but I did not like the manufacturing side.

So I sold the business and I got on working for a large publishing company. I got in at the ground floor and they didn’t have the direct mail. And so I went for a meal and you know thousands of pieces to mail 30 million pieces a year. And I was working for the publisher was called the Ken Roberts company. And we sold the information products in the financial market. And so I worked there for about 10 years and then I decided to get out of my own. And for the last 11 12 years I’ve been a full time direct mail marketing consultant. So that’s kind of I guess a longer

version of how I got started in that.

Right now when you were first delving into it because I’m sure there’s people of that same age listening to this show. You know we’re about to embark on a marketing career of whatever form that takes. When you were first testing out you know these direct mail pieces for your for your fake rock business.

I mean you talked to afford rocks of the mail.

You know it’s awesome.

It’s a very interesting story.

And we’re taking direction like where you’re reading Mark the books and using techniques or you know I read like I had read co-marketing book I remember which one it was but I remember reading about handwriting addressed and putting lights up on there so I did those two things that were the only thing I did right that failed copying side was absolutely awful.

I think that’s why I didn’t sell anything. Plus the list was awful too I got the list the wrong place wrong time and it was not a good group of prospects to go after. So once I figured out some of those things out that’s when I really started doing well. But initially I had read some marketing books somewhere it wasn’t a well-known one I don’t know where I got it. Probably the library and I didn’t do well with my first campaign but after that I figured things out.

Right now when you. I guess it was probably from that marketing book where you hear about doing direct mail was asked from the same marketing book.

Yeah I had an idea and I do it. I wish I remember what book it was. It might have meant some kind of marketing textbook or something. But that’s where I had read about it. And so I want to give this a try and it made it sound so easy.

You know made it sound like Hey you send these things out and people are you know a truck backs up for cash you know and it wasn’t that way.

Definitely not. Now when you when you sort of graduated from you know working for yourself initially and then moved to the Ken Roberts company and they’re really mailing so many million pieces of mail were they all up to speed on direct marketing techniques and stuff like that.

Is that sort of where you got your estimation.

Yep they were there very much so. And I take and I had very little knowledge going into it I mean I had some but not a lot.

And that really took me to the next level.

And I had there I began to realize the importance of studying direct marketing. And I remember the first real marketing book that I read was a book by David Ogilvy called Ogilvy on advertising. And basically it was an introduction to direct mail direct mail direct marketing and really the difference between direct marketing and then frap brand advertising.


And they are so different. And David Ogilvy at the time was huge in the advertising world as one of the greatest sought after marketing wizard you know of his time and he talked about even though he had a big brand agency it was the most successful campaigns were done through direct response marketing. And so that was my first book that really got me into it.

And then there was a series of others that led me down the path of really becoming the ear of it and finding out what are the things that really make people tick that make it so that you can generate a response from a campaign.

And since then I mean it just fascinates me still and I get excited every summer campaign because I get to watch and see what comes back right now or people that can operate company where they the ones that are influenced you or told you about the different books or a.. Yeah. So they were like can read these books.

Yeah. Read these books studies.

I had a boss Jeff Robinson Some who was really into it and he was you know a real proponent behind studying these guys. And once I get into I didn’t stop I just loved it.

I read these books like Claude Hopkins and calling him up in fact so the book that you reference really the one to go with Brian Kurtz.

It goes back to all the legends that first studied and and there’s Robert Collier which recall your letters is one of the great book ever written on direct response direct mail marketing and creating ad copy that really get people to read on that when there was that was a reply.

That was one of the early books I read that really got me going.

So I have favorites it is.

It is. And I’ll tell you for those who you know are listening if they want to if they really want to study that’s a book to go to.

Now tell you it it’s a hard book to read it because the type it doesn’t always entertain.

I mean it’s it’s like that copy in there it’s tough to get through but you’ve got to pull up the nuggets and that partly you know the book that I wrote Brian Curtis.

I mean it was let’s pop a nugget for everyone so they don’t have to go through the pain of reading this book or the arcane language and so forth of the Estre That’s right. Oh that’s right yeah yeah.

That’s what to read to you I mean the language back then was just different in the 1920s.

Those were kind of funny to read some of that the way they wrote add back and it’s really comical but it was very persuasive and it motivated people to respond.

Yeah I remember when I cracked him in the rubber collar book and a lot of those other books you’ve written about in your advertising solution books and what sort of was interesting was like you sort of saw where these things came from.

Now you know being not of that era you you know have are familiar with through other avenues perhaps like oh like this is a scratch and dent sale or whatever you know they come from it’s like oh man this is this is where the stuff comes from.

Yeah you know I don’t if you know what I’d like to one more thing that’s really interesting about that because you’re right.

I mean all of the things we do today came from them and you’ve heard of the one bill now. Right. Right. Everyone’s saying that. And Gary halber was famous for them. He really pushed that. But Robert Collier was as far as I know the first one to ever do it. And he mailed out an actual physical dollar dollar bill in the 1930s maybe in the 1920s actually and it was for a nonprofit organization and it was about. It was for a hospital you know had supported and worked with crippled children and the offer just as there was that the into. Hey here’s a dollar bill and we would ask that you

would simply return it with a few more of your own to help out. And he got a 90 percent response rate and then.

You know what know what an example many people are still using the dollar bill mailing today jaggies personally.

Actually you have. I have wonderful. Yeah. So my consulting services actually awesome.

And so I just need you know that Robert Collier was the first one to do in the 1920s or Gary Halbert.

I didn’t know it was Collier because I read or saw Essel and it must have been socks.

And also it appeared in his books but I definitely saw a video of Gary halber talking at a seminar and he had suggested reading that book and I don’t know. So sad that it was from there or if he just said you know there’s things like this in this book and this if you haven’t read this book you know side done that but it’s still well and alive today almost 100 years later.

So and I’m sure I’m sure you know if you are smart people you will be one of those hundred year old tricks of marketing that’s still being used.

Yeah. Know being a direct mail specialist yourself of course. And Brian I think talked about this on on the take over Tuesday.

Like I said to Brian where you know it seems like Troy and for whatever reason I guess because everyone’s sort of rushing to the internet out asked that a lot of these direct mail techniques and so forth and just the process of using direct mail to solicit customers or prospects.

That’s kind of fallen by the wayside.

Tom followed by you know I don’t favor somewhat but a lot of people who are not like the super savvy marketers but sort of in general. Yeah. Yeah. And yet you base your business around direct mail. So maybe speak to that a bit sort of like how it’s not gone away and the end user still specializing it. But you know I you think it’s just been forgotten because of the deal.

You know what do you call it. Yeah is the.

You know I mean people don’t want to spend the money on it. Right that’s it. You can go and send an e-mail for free. And here you know with direct mail you’ve actually got to pay for postage on for printing.

So a lot of marketers stay with me because there’s this huge you know cost involved. So we send out they’ll right. My company about over 300 different mailings per year so that 300 different print job 300 different list orders 300 different you know. It’s a huge high volume. And then the one I’m trying what I’m getting at here is that there’s still a lot of business that you can get at the savvy marketers are still finding ways to use direct mail. And the thing is is every you know Fortune 500 company is using it. You got Google who at one point was the eighth largest technology mail in the country using it. The

garment business is like in the dot com. I mean there’s just you know dozens and dozens and dozens of these large businesses that still use it. It’s more of this small business middle sized you know companies that aren’t using it because of the cost or because they don’t understand it. But the big ones are still using the Usenet aggressively. There’s 46 billion dollars a year spent on direct mail advertising every year. But that’s a huge number. 46 billion. So it’s still a mass appeal it’s just it just has a lot of businesses are using it but it’s still a huge business. So it’s not like it’s gone. It’s just not

as publicized as what it used to be.

Yeah I think maybe just people are talking about it less. It seems like it’s fallen out of favor because of the lack chatter sort of around it but the real people that are dead are doing and obviously 46 billion is like doing it or maybe just delete it.

Yeah yeah. Think about it.

Get any.

And you know the thing let me just share one thing with Eric no one of the reasons why I love it is we’ve done these tests where we’re talking about the value of the customer and how much they’re worth and I had one company where we took 50000 direct mail buyers 50000 TV buyers and 50000 the online buyers they all bought the exact same product for the exact same price within a month and all of the variables are the same. And what we did is we took those 250000 people we looked at the value of the customer. You know after six months nine months a year year and a half and we found that the direct mail buyers spent three times as much as the

TV buyers and the TV buyers that twice as much as the online buyers. So we found that you know clearly with this sample size of 150000 people the direct mail buyers had significantly higher customer lifetime value. And we found that a lot of different niches but that was the biggest sample that we’ve run. So even though there’s a cost to getting the campaign out think getting responses. There’s also a reward that comes later on that really gives a good solid reason why people should be using it today.

No that’s that’s very important that’s a very interesting test results.

So basically you’re saying that the best customers came through the direct mail solicitation and that’s important like you’re talking of a lifetime value the customer that’s super important I don’t think I’m a business owner because I’ve dealt with them enough myself that day.

You know take that into account that everyone sort quarter seems to have sort of short sighted you know of always wanting customers new customers but they don’t care where they come from. But I find that to be true in my own consulting thing is the best people sort of came through the direct mail stuff when I’m like out leads off you know doing these podcasts or e-mail or stuff like that. More often than not the direct mail one went out and stayed with.

You know there’s that over a customer and. And.

And these kids are older or more savvy or I never sort of broke it all down but she has a variety of reasons but I noticed that myself so that’s interesting that I bore out over such large testing samples.

Yeah. And you brought up something to me I think age has something to do with it too.

I mean this was based off of people who are 45 plus. So when those numbers change if it was you know 20 to 40 I would guess. So my weight. Right. And you know the boomers and seniors I mean are the ones that got the money anyway right now.

So naturally they’re going to get a lot of money but you know I guess the age is across the board for the sample they were all older but they did prefer you know they did. They did spend more money if they were generous through direct mail.

So now when you’re working in your own business to get these mailings out for the different clients that you have are you doing the cop running yourself or do you have a team or how does that work.

No I mean we outsource a lot of it and then a lot of companies they have their own you know the big companies have their own in-house writers you know like a beach body or a great audience for the whole team of writers.

And so in many cases they’ve got their own creative staff. And if it’s only if the smaller businesses then we then we we outsource the copywriting and find our copywriters to work with.


It seems to me nowadays I’ve talked with a couple of you know had a sort of a who’s who of copywriters and stuff on my show and on John show and John had other people that some of them especially the older ones seemed to have an opinion because the Web is in many ways a cheap media to slap up a web page pretty easily if you know what you’re doing and run a sales page and so forth to text and drive traffic to it that that breeds a markedly different caliber if you will of copywriter overall versus the direct mail.

You know so little quote unquote old school people where your copy had to be like super tight to justify you know sending spending that kind of money I like to talk about on direct mail.

Exactly right. Yeah. I mean 100 percent and that’s I would say that’s come up.

Unfortunately the my world has has some ways damaged the quality of copyright because you can do stuff so cheap that cheap and they just kind of run with whatever right. Whereas when you’re spending you know 50 cents to a dollar or two meal a piece and there’s you know tens of thousands of them. You really have to make sure you have a dialed in print so a couple of things happen one. Also the copperas have popped up everywhere and they may not be that good but they can get it done or unmooring but they’re not great. And then the other thing is that probably the biggest detriment to copywriters is because of the cheap copywriting world in the way that a

change is there’s no more. It’s really hard to find companies that are willing to pay royalties copywriters. Right. And they used to be this relationship where you would hire a cop rather they would want to see you succeed. And so long term they would get you know a loyal piece of per piece fee oftentimes you know that they get with you for every piece of mail. So then if they didn’t put as much effort as they could have peace knowing that there’s a long term relationship with they could be paid for it. And that is really going away. I mean there’s only a few companies that are willing to pay those royalties. And because there’s no other coppers willing to do it without a deal. Right.

And so it’s kind of damage that and I’m not a Kopra and I know that you do copywriting tech I’m sure you’ve probably seen it all with as well.

That’s one of the reasons why I sort of branched out further into other marketing sort of angles if you will and doing more overall marketing consulting too because I do love doing the copy. It’s fun and I the psychology behind it. I sort of came from a different field so I was originally and still am a professional magician.

So I sort of came from the field of deception if you on the psychology of that got me interested in copywriting.

And so yeah what you’re saying is right there are not a lot of people they’re not people familiar you know if they’re not one of those big direct mail companies like a Gore or some of these ones you hear about from the past that have gone through different you know shifts and change names and so forth.

Yeah there’s not a lot of people that are even familiar with that set up you know getting royalties on the back end and stuff. And so their more resistance to an arrangement of that nature is get it selling you can toss some people into the things because the value is there if you can make that case and people will can be convinced but it is seems to be dying out sort of thing that’s getting getting less and less and less and B and that has to do I think with those less people understanding it and the lack of direct mail discussion and the lack of those you know that demographics of that age are people who are familiar with all that stuff has moved on.

And so you’re right. Yeah. So that’s why I sort of stepped into more of a broader marketing aspects which still really involved all copywriting principles but just apply a little bit differently now because you’ve been in this for a while.

What sort of advice do you have for freelance copywriters who are maybe looking for clients in regards to using direct mail. And maybe because it sounds like you are more on the end of having to deal with copywriters as more of a client than a you know doing copywriting yourself and when you do any contract that we sort of always hear from the copywriters we sort of oh you know on this show a lot we’ve we’ve talked about some of the horror stories how to protect yourself as a copywriter as a freelance cuppers civically and maybe talk from the other perspective like you know having to work with copywriters and stuff like that some of the things you don’t like or some of the trouble

spots that you’ve encountered to sort of inform copywriters how they work how they should conduct themselves.

Well I think we’re fortunate I mean I’ve really gotten some good writers I’ve worked with. I think that the downfalls are those that the ones the ones that I’ve gotten in trouble more copyrighted than they.

I asked them the question how and when you try to piece and it takes three weeks for a short letter. And then I say ok and I go tell the client that and then if it turns out that me and I get this creative process going on and I’m OK with that but I’ve had some writers who have taken you know twice the time I’ve had writers where the pieces can be done in three months which is a generous amount.

And it was nine months and it really makes you look bad.

I consultant when I help my. No I really I try and stay away from people who I’ve had the kind of experiences with.

But I think it’s just do what you say you’re going to do. You’re going to have it done by the time they get it done by then.

And if you cannot do the job in the time that you did until rather than being up front about it what I can do at this time. Well I think that I think that probably one of the biggest tips I could give that the other one too is I always like to writers you know and I know everyone does this but I can tell is well how many pages do you want. You know they right. As many as it takes to get the job done. If it’s a two page letter a four page letter and you feel like you can be everything you need to give you your best health metrics and I’m OK with that. If it’s 20 pages I’m OK with that but I think one of the worst things we can do at

businesses and business owners is to tell a copyright of the one that you hate letters. Well maybe that’s not enough faith for that. Or maybe it’s too much space for that. We have to let the copywriter do their job because they know how to write and persuade. Let’s not mess with that process too much.


No I think that’s a that’s a very good point because they’re you know if you’re capable of copyright you will be able to ferret that out very weekly in regards to doing your research as to where this might go in terms of the volume of material you’re going to have to use to persuade because it’s can now become from their market awareness and their awareness of the company that you’re writing for and what you know who that person is or what the service product is and all that kind of stuff and then quickly get a feel I think for how long that piece needs to be.

Right. Exactly.

And I think those are good tips and we appreciate that because we do hear a lot from this side of the fence so to speak for complaints about clients and so forth.

I felt like to some degree we’re probably bagging on clients to talk about how it works.

You know it’s sort of montra what if you manage what I find is if you manage the project the project right from the beginning meaning you’re very transparent that this is going to take me.

Here’s the process I’m going to go through that client. Not when you think things go away you’ve got to live up to your part of the deal.

I mean I mean I can’t count on them or writers that say that they can’t get into the you know the writing thing until the deadline for when they wake up with that talk about when they were asked.

Well that’s not fair to the coroner now. And that’s why they stick it.

I mean that the is what say hey could take me six weeks to write the letter and maybe going a take your five but next week in which you can make sure your job is done you know.

Yeah. So I know you have to call it.

No they don’t. And it is an important thing. It’s like you should be as a copywriter.

You know having that time that you act in terms of time you actually need for the time that you know you’re going to say you need because you want a buffer zone in there so that you don’t make a mistake like that and then end up breaking a deadline because then it’s a chain reaction like you said you’re going to they’re working with you.

You’re going to go tell the client that this is when it’s going to be done and my shoe and you are in your business of primarily direct mail. That’s a really massive deal because the cost and everything I’m getting all that together and putting it out is pretty significant. Yep exactly. Well that’s great I think. I think giving people a lot to go on here today have been very forthcoming. And then with all of your information stuff and it’s been a real pleasure having you on the show.

Now if people want to get this book the advertising solution Craig where should they go they should go to the full Legin book Dot Com legend put dot com and what’s really cool is Brian I’ve put together an amazing resource package of free resources that you get if you buy the book for you to go to legends book Dot com.

Ill tell you how to get book off how to get things like a swipe file that goes back a hundred years. It’s. How to get access to a special edition of Scientific advertising by Hopkin and we’re going to give you some live video some rare live video.

Thorton have never been shared before with Gene Schwartz and Gary Halward. So you’ve got all those things free if you go to legend back home. Follow the directions and they’ll walk you through how how to get back.

Everything is awesome. That’s awesome. I was lucky enough to get a advance copy from Brian but I went ahead and purchased anyways and got those extra resources. It’s a great book. It does plot all the nuggets you sort of highlight. You know the six sort of famous copywriters in history and I’d add men that are in the best of the best and the you know who’s your personal favorite of the people the six people that you highlight in there where you are most influenced by one or the other.

I would have to say well my favorites are David Ogilvy because he’s so colorful and Frank and brilliant.

The other one is going to be rough with Hollywood just because even though his book was really thick and hard to read he was just a master of persuasion. He knew what to say and get people to work on.

You know he got started selling coal coal was his first.

Well like me was wrong. Right right. Even harder. Yes. That’s great.

Yeah. So he found I had a big get excited about that to sell coal.

And so I think he for me is a real hero. I mean he was he added dialed in I would say those two guys be my favorite.

Awesome. Now people want to get in touch with you directly to talk about perhaps you know I’m getting some direct mail diner or whatever what we’re actually reach you at.

They can go to my Web site and his contact form on their phone number on their Simpson dash direct dot com and dash direct dot com. What they want to know more about direct mail I’ve got another book called The direct mail solution that’s the one I wrote with in Canada you can get that on Amazon. So there are a couple of different ways to get in touch with me.

Awesome awesome. I know it’s been a real pleasure having you on the show today Craig.

Likewise. I totally enjoyed it. Is that a phone conversation. Thanks for having me.

Yeah I will definitely have to do it again for everybody else.

This is yet another exciting edition and I hope you take some real nuggets that Craig is giving you away from this and improve every aspect of your marketing whether it is using direct mail or not and probably should be.

But also you know the tips and stuff about offers and copywriting are pretty timeless and usable in every media.

So everyone listening will be back again with another edition of the podcast. And another exciting guest next week. All right thank you

The post Episode #153 – Craig Simpson On A 46 Billion Dollar “Secret” To 5X Your Business In 18 Months.(Bonus – A Client’s View On Low-Class Jackass Copywriters!) appeared first on McMethod.

Apr 04 2017



Rank #14: Episode #154 – Carlos Redlich On A Simple Strategy Which Makes Copy Clients Beat Down Your Door – Every Single Day!

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Carlos Redlich is a life-long martial artist turned copywriting and marketing black belt.

Carlos and I (David Allan) once did a podcast together before he landed a massive retainer client.

He has continued with his freelance copy career since last we spoke…

BUT he has some new experiences to share.

From in the copy trenches.

This one strategy I have heard from a few copywriters (like Ben Settle and Doberman Dan)…

But it bears repeating because it can work almost like magic.

He also drops a very simple and straightforward Facebook system to lure new clients.

So listen and then DO.

The rewards are yours for the taking.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • Bruce Lee’s secret to learning anything…including copywriting!
  • How stories endure…the PR savvy of dead celebrities.
  • One angle you can use in your copy that you may have overlooked (leaving money on the table).
  • How to steal your way to the bank (the ethical genius of Jay Abraham).
  • Carlos’ secret to closing sales even Obi-Wan Kenobi would be proud of. (Also – his “Cohones” method to getting money upfront!)


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey, everybody we’re back for another edition of the podcast and I have a very special guest. Normally I’d say that anyway, but this is extra special because Carlos Redlich and I started a podcast more than a year ago now I think because I just got a Facebook reminder about a couple of the interviews we used to do and he’s a fellow copywriter who became too busy with his freelance career to basically continue with the podcast. And I ended up doing the podcast for John McIntyre and releasing other ones which was called Takeover Tuesday and Carlos is now on the show. Finally we are here.

Carlos Redlich: Yeah man happy and excited to be on the call as though it’s a long time no see. You know what I mean.

David Allan: Yeah man. We’ve been out of touch for a bit because everyone’s been busy as heck fire. So yeah. So it’s been crazy it’s been a wild ride. So let’s start with sort of you know I can’t remember the last time I talked to you it’s been a lot of months anyways. But at that point you you had landed a massive client for your freelance business. You didn’t cooperate you were doing a whole you’re on retainer you were doing a whole bunch of shit for them. Maybe start from there and sort of you know what’s it all for you. I know you went to trafficking reversions I know you the US You just moved to Arizona I think back when we were just diverting parts basically. So would you bring us up to speed. Yeah.

Carlos Redlich: So I mean again appreciate being on the call.

Yeah I mean I think last time we talked when I picked up our one really big retainer client who’s pay 10 grand a month we were doing tons of shit and then we actually mean we’re still friends. We don’t do the retainer any more we’re doing kind of like profit share stuff and he’s crashing into it and stuff so it’s really the best part is he’s actually in Arizona way 15 minutes down the street. I usually go have a barbecue at his place anyway. I get free food and money so. But I mean since then it’s actually I’ve kind of had a slow evolution. I still do clients except I don’t do like these 10 hours on our client anymore. Generally speaking to me like thirty five hundred dollars a month or five grand a month and then you know just like the one off

DSL or e-mails and stuff like that. But what I’m really doing is focusing on putting all 15 on my martial art niche so nobody knows this probably but I want to of the biggest combo more short groups on Facebook. And it’s it’s really taken off like wildfire. All I really did was drive a wench to Facebook actually drove her from one Facebook what I this big group with. And so right now I’m just kind of putting all like all the clients and all my clients actually notice my clients. Essentially they’re mostly retainer like 80 percent of a 20 percent you know go you know papers to write and all that shit and everything else is going right into my

list so yeah man I mean since then I’ve just gone again like I said foot shifts on my own more short selling my own stuff. What I can march. But as I’ve started my own stuff and I share screen shots of like hey my Lannie page you know got to 60 some percent conversion rate. You know check this out and I’m just sharing stuff that I experience as an entrepreneur as a digital marketer of stuff like that not just as a copywriter but when I do that you know my clients are all end and marketers are real businessmen and all this stuff and they’re doing something similar. So I’m probably a much higher scale so there’s kind of a commonality. Know I’ve gotten more business and more referrals now that I’ve

kind of gone all in on my martial arts stuff and also just I mean just a suicide note if anybody’s ever building your own copywriting business I can’t recommend enough to take your copywriting money that you make from like your freelance gig right relative doing some kind of offering your own. And man it’s like killer for positioning and making money so that you can be fully owned.

So how long ago. Now I’ve sort of seen you I’ve watched sort of from afar as we haven’t been talking with labels.

I remember when you started the group and I sort of watched you talk about various aspects through your Facebook post and stuff so you know you started with nothing presumably. And you built it up to how many people got your group 13 hours in something like that.

You know it’s actually funny. My goal is to make it the biggest one and the second biggest one I can’t seem to be.

He said he was a nice guy. He’s actually in my group too and he’s got like a 16000 person group and you know Mad respect to the dude everything but it’s not a very active group and there’s like a bunch of scammers and shit and they’re like the spammer people so I’m going to brag about my Lorrimore is because we build it through Facebook and what we also did a really good filtration process too where there’s like no spam for the most part every once in a while you’ll get somebody and we just got a blocked political leader. But for the most really tight knit group of people who all of we who of cheak who don’t use the work could say I get and it’s cool

man is that community just don’t like praise the bad stuff. I already literally on a spur of the moment thing and it just kind of took off from like oh shit I guess we should really go our chips in on this. You know.

So for you that was like a passion of yours before because we know from if you know if people listen to the earliest take over Tuesdays I know you run a martial arts gym at one point.

Yeah. Yeah I don’t. I’ve been involved in. He produces I was like 13 I’m 30 now so a few years you know what I mean so it’s only I’ve always been involved with whether I’ve been training it teaching it or just reading about it and I was like you know what I mean. I mean just start a little page and then I hate group and I say I will see if anybody likes anything. I just tried selling some little. It’s funny. I used to sell posters of Bruce Lee into the Presley foundation and shut my ass down to sleep with Zusman for like nine bucks for like a free shipping offer. Again it was like I sold like a few hundred of these things happening are they putting it on like my group are like Hey go check

it out. And I would put in my crew. So I was like me and this is powerful I should probably start paying attention to this and then I actually heard one of my old clients Chris record he’s really big like the internet marketing and all that stuff and one of the things that I learned from him is passion is not just passion but a passion an audience is just huge. And it sounds obvious and I knew it I guess before hearing him and seeing his results. I mean it makes sense it’s not that I kind of look back on the whole Jay K-T thing and may have started kind of as a fluke and I was like yeah I like this stuff we just make it for fun. But these are national groups of people they’re not your typical mixed martial artists these are Bruce Lee you know fans who are like you they’re

I’m I’m the issues a anti karate or anti type window but to a degree it’s like you know you don’t really get that kind of a smile when they really associate they’re really passionate about something. It’s like it’s stupid it’s it’s very simple to sell stuff you just got to put it right in front of the window by just gotta make sure they’re really passionate you know what I mean.

Yeah you know it’s funny you mentioned that you know gee can do the stuff because I mean I’m a big fan of Bruce Lee movies going back some time as a kid I used to watch them all over and over and over again.

And so our history of him you know I prematurely is a mystery and an interesting quality to it.

And I bought some j k d tapes which I wanted to put out. I bought some tapes back in the day that were like turned out to be giganto days. But I think they were just self defense tapes.

And the reason I bring this up is because you know how I first heard about copyright and people will know what’s in the podcast about Gary halber writing.

I think it’s actually Gary Helmer and John Carlton teamed up to write a sales letter for something called serious growth which was a bodybuilding system out of all of the Sayliyah California the way. Yeah. And they had that same group was it was all Belke they all sort of had the same. They were involved in that. They were I think they’re all connected because there are Bauld that they were involved in self-defense stuff and just a number of different products and different pieces. And one of the ones was these self-defense tapes I think they’re called tactical response systems was the terrorist act. Yeah exactly. And whore and I think people were Melber and

he put out these tapes. I remember getting them because they were actual tapes or VHS tapes or whatever. It was like but advocated like I’m one of the things that some of my day advocated to like you know the person’s attacking your own restrike and then run away you know get out of there quickly. Basically there was there’s like self-defense was like you know step you know stamped their knee and then get the fuck out of there basically. And but there was a guy who evers was struck.

I don’t remember his name who was struck it was crude though.

You know a guy who Nakh I went to hear Paul Mooney who was governor Yeah. Paul Vitex very famous and JKA he went on I know he did a lot of stuff for TR restore act and so did Frank Kuchi who is a former Navy SEAL I believe who.

Guy. And he does stuff with TR Esther. So yeah I mean Jacob has been around for so long and it kind of went through his popular face. So it had its like they blow up to a degree kind of big blow up in the 70s 80s something. Again the years mixed up I see around that time and then it had fizzled out a little bit and then now with the whole rise of mixed martial arts and the UFC say hey you know I’m sorry the whole thing with the UFC he said hey you know Brucey is the founder of anything and whether it’s true or not. I’m kind of like Brucey was a founder of scientific street fighting not like an ape. But whatever. So he kind of gave the whole secondo community a little bit of a

boost a little more popularity so yes. I mean it’s been around for so long. It’s just that. I don’t think people have really tapped into it enough. And and one of the things that I like just kind of is a copywriter. A lot of people were injured and I actually went down this route to Australia. So like copyright and templates and my products and you know one of the things I was like I was not having fun doing this like I like selling to marketers. I don’t know why it’s just not fun for me. I’d much rather use you know my like evil secrets and actually sell to people who aren’t marketers it’s like that’s a test of your ability and by selling it to marketers who are trying to follow you and get the latest technique or

are you using your skills to actually go out into a marketplace that’s not familiar with more than and it’s up to them. It’s cool man but yeah it’s cool that he brought up a tiara Esther and that’s pretty funny I haven’t heard that.

There’s no around. Really. Yeah. That’s funny you know. And one thing that always comes to mind when I hear you know the name Bruce Lee aside from his obvious prowess and sort of the like it’s a mystical mysterious legend surrounding him is the you know sort of the short version you know of his sort of philosophy which I think directly applies to God which is the use what works and discard all else we as ordered is used for rejecters useless there yeah.

And that’s kind of it that has a lot of application for marketing and copywriting because you know you have this whole bag of tricks and stuff if you will these evil evil scheming.

So for the Jews and the testing is where that stuff is out sometimes this thing will work for this particular thing or something right.

Yeah it’s really. Yeah totally I mean it’s finally you bring that up because my martial art instructor is the one who taught me.

GK No he’s a cool go school already. He was also a danger free market. You know what I mean like he learned he built the school using marketing so. And that’s it’s funny that you see that because not many people make that link and it’s very true. I always thought Bruce Lee was like a renegade marketer. When I saw a clip one time of Bruce Lee’s library if you look at it he’s got hundreds of books on sales persuasion. There’s a human development not just on how Wright beat somebody up or not just our philosophy but he really understood that communication in sales is that it can’t take you to the next level. Another thing that was really interesting. This is all crazy because I love how you said that

because very few people actually get that connection. So let’s go on half on it. You see you’re familiar probably with the ultimate aim that the player and he’ll talk about right here. And we’re definitely putting your pocket in looking very well recently did that and I don’t remember exactly what his his Definitely Bainbridge chief aim was but it something along the lines of you know I’m going to be the most popular actor Asian actor in Hollywood. I’m going to make. I don’t know if it was a million or ten nine or 100 million dollars in x 9 years and he had a real financial goal and not many people like it that almost gets glossed over everybody Reynosa for the martial arts stuff for the fullest

philosophical stuff. But nobody knows that or nobody pays attention to how he was actually a really sad it’s a savage a businessman and a savvy businessman and he really loved it. He was a good marketer. Horror Story from my structure back in the day I don’t know if it’s true or not maybe it’s you’re saying it’s not but apparently Bruce Lee when he added I don’t know how many schools he had a camera. Maybe it was two or three or whatever but yeah a couple schools in California and Seattle. So it’s so bad that only the GI could represent a around like forgetting all the shit anyway. I mean he had all these different schools and he had to make a decision whether he was going to teach a bunch of schools or just teach are in one school or whatever.

And so apparently and tried fudging the story little I don’t have like 100. But it was something like it wasn’t as profitable to have all these different schools and it was just I guess trained celebrities and do movies. So he closed the school down because it’s like a business. It was just smarter to make more money doing it through movies and doing and all this other stuff. And he could if you just tried opening up a bunch of little bike martial arts schools you know what I mean. So she was a renegade martial artist and also a renegade marketer. You know what I mean.

Yeah well he because he get all sorts of people as clients like he had creme Abdul-Jabbar and stuff for the clients and as actors of that era that you see in some of the films and so forth and you know in the documentaries and stuff I’ve watched about Brisley you know totally ease he had some of the top guys in industry training with him.

Right. And what’s a better marketing than that. Exactly.

Exactly. And a lot of that you know and this is an interesting sort of thing when it comes to positioning and stuff because of course that helps your positioning when you’re dealing with the high end people so to speak.

And also you know when you’re building out lead like we have a legend now about Bruce Lee about you know who he was and the fact that he died early.

It’s like this just this awesome. You know which a lot of you know marketers or sports figures and you know past presidents and all sorts of hobbies like legendary things surrounding them which have built their reputation. In my other field that I’m interested in which is magic. Houdini is a good example of that because everyone nowadays you say oh who always like Houdini when he’s get people’s goddamn narrow situations. And you know there were many people of the time who were you know as famous before Houdini and after but Houdini you know he was very careful about you know how he projected himself was very good getting

publicity and his wife employed like a PR firm for like 25 years after he was dead. Yes. And so that’s probably why we still know who who did. That’s crazy. Yes that’s for sure. So there is a lot to there’s a lot of cachet when people have you know that Legenda you know when people have stories about them.

Yeah absolutely. I mean it’s also just like the pursuit. Right.

So I don’t know as much about Houdini but I would imagine just like gristly or anybody who’s really great or at the top of their game they’re always ready they’re always advancing something in their nature and what they’re interested in right. So again maybe Houdini had like millions of books on magic but I’m sure I don’t know that’s what I missed or he had tons just walks on like human behavior on these other things. All right so I mean whenever you are constantly subjecting yourself to all these different aims there’s no way you can’t really I one of the things I learned from Jay Abraham who’s you don’t know who he is and everybody knows who he is then push puzzlements call and go fight and go a long

way. So were things I actually had learned from him is that he not personally but just how useful is that. You can’t take stuff from other industries and different industries and put them into yours and it’s totally revolutionary. It’s like the whole you know drive through window at a at a fast food place like that’s common right but if you move to a dry cleaners or back in the day when no one did that that’s revolutionary you can actually sell stuff. When I used to live in Jacksonville Florida I know at least two or three places that would have liked drive through liquor stores that was totally. Legal like to plant it worked.

This was a man that’s like revolutionary. Nobody wanted to go inside or do all that stuff and they were going to go to the bars or whatever they wanted to pre-game. It just go through the drive through cops like for any answer to that. I mean just being able to of all those different things just like any. Like I said briskly you’re like I’m sure Houdini or all these other people did. That’s what can take the next level. It’s just that the combination of some different ideas put together put him in one thing it’s just revolutionary in another industry.

That’s 100 percent true. Anyone who is familiar with Dan Kennedy of long that you mentioned earlier he’s a master at you know he has a super high end group where they all do that they all cross you know cross-pollinate if you will their ideas from different industries. And you know it’s worked wonders for different things and it’s and it’s people just don’t. They tend not to look outside their their current mission that’s usually the problem. It is as if you are a copycat and yet to come.

So bring us up to speed on some of those. So you know you moved on to having this huge condo thing in your soul and chucks and stuff.

I’m not talking the king of the shocks.

I follow your sales pages I like it was for training but those would train things or something.

Yeah. The other thing you do all the yeah you see in the movies and stuff all the time. Yeah.

And I was like oh this is cool you know. But so aside from that you still have clients you’re still doing some freelance copy stuff for people. You know what. You know what’s since lost I thought doing so would solve some of the stuff you’ve learned because I know you have a variety of clients in your you do like myself who do a bunch of different you know you do e-mail you sales pages you do funnel stuff. You know what’s what are some of things you learned from dealing with some of these people.

I mean well I mean I guess it is safer.

I mean I guess there’s like a few different things but were things that I’ve learned just to my copy perspective is if you’re trying to disrupt the cold traffic test a news angle. Right so a lot of this supplement companies are trying to do this. Skin care companies are doing this right if you try and get in. This is just something out right now and I didn’t think it would work. For some down there I’m like oh shit when it ain’t worth a price I’d like to pay it. Yeah we have a low end user like intro. I she ripped her off from another copy writer whoever wrote lifestyle. It’s like an idea. So I withdraw from that. So good credit those guys. But that stuff really works. I mean well I’ve trained at least two or

three different right to know two different industries with clients who are in the same I would ever buy it. I mean it works really well. But. One of the I mean I had already learned I would say I hadn’t learned anything like crazy mindbogglingly copy wise. One of the things I’ve learned is that people are going to hire their friends. I mean it’s something that is I guess basic and everybody kind of gets it. But I think they really take action on it. Like so when I say it like you know I’ll send my thumbs up or like like fingerpicks sure like so don’t share with me in there and I’ll do this too like prospective clients too and it’s so crazy how no one does this and I’ve said it’s

like and that’s something you know. But it closes deals actually. I’m working a lot with Everett for an hour. You know my partner we’ve kind of tag team on a few different B-cells and finals and stuff like that and she was blown away because we had like a 15 minute call with somebody where I asked for 500 bucks up front and she was like OK what was on the table when we don’t over we’re going to hopefully close them tomorrow. Well the one that I’ve done is after we did get a check this shit just. We had a little face to face. Call I should just say what we’re doing now. But I did a video like a selfie

video and then I was a good little Thousands of thing or whatever picture like that man. What is the relation of more and and having some guts right. So if you’re ever a copper and you talk to different clients you probably have clients ask you a couple of things right. So one thing they say is you know how much do you charge. Don’t like it. I don’t know. Some people get scared that I’ll be like oh yes please. So my flight rates are you know seventy five dollars for this trip and I just held them and having the guts and courage to say that is huge. What was the other thing. Gosh I was going to say something else. Oh when they say OK yeah.

So thanks for the call or whatever. We’re going to go talk to a few of these other cooperators that we have to interview. Here’s what works right. And this I do it’s and it’s just whatever. As soon as I see that shit I say something along the lines of Oh no no worries I’ll have to hire them. It’s cool. So what is it to send you the questionnaire something and I just say I hope this works. I don’t know. We don’t get it like I’ve had I’m not going to mention some of their needs because it’s like friends of mine that I kind of compete with obviously for the same client but they’ll be like oh you know this person is you know partnered with this person and they’re crushing it and you know I want to talk my. And no worries

on Friday. They’re really good. But you’ve got tops then we can crush this too. So what’s the go ahead. And the questionnaire tousling time to get the ball in there. What the fuck did she just say Mike. Yes. Carlos just said that. I don’t know. I don’t mean I don’t know maybe the sex of an LP is with me I don’t look too deep. I just know that every time I say a great laugh it makes them smile and they’re like oh this guy is kind of cool you know. And then if I ever feel like you are then I say hey I won’t be a good director copyright and try to shut down the deal. Right. It’s true. Exactly.

These aren’t the carburettors you’re looking for. Yeah yeah yeah.

It’s than any copyright. I mean if you’re Compuware you’ve got to learn how to sell like you don’t have to be like this. Master Koeser on the phone or anything but you’ve got to have the courage to ask for the sale and get a yes or no the worst that can happen is going to say no. The problem is that some people won’t have enough people enough lead so we don’t have enough. You’re desperate. And you right as I write this I can pay rent or some shit. So if that’s the issue you don’t have a pricing issue you fight when you have that much of a skill issue you have a marketing issue in Europe Rick and operator markers we should fix that. Well short of doing so are sort of just posting on Facebook or something like that. One of the things that’s worked pretty well is if you’re decent. Facebook has a lot of

Facebook ads. GRUBERT I mean I’ve used them I’ll just literally promote like boost a post or do a paper or engagement post or whatever. Just content and ask for a call of action or anything like that. I’ll just give out free content and that’s it. And then I do that for a few days like three or four days and then I run a fellow asking him to send me a message and whatever and that just works. I don’t know why I don’t even have a website but I just do everything through Facebook and it works. It really works well.

All right. So that you would release content over three or four days and then you run an actual ad or do you just get your size on this.

If I release the content whatever it might like.

I know one of them are saying things I just give out is my five cents for reading and Facebook right there is a yes question story to relate the big amo and suggest solution in the call of action. So I just give an example and I put in a Facebook post and I pay 20 bucks for it or 50 bucks towards it spent over a week or five days or whatever. And then after it if it gets enough engagement what I’ll do is I’ll just run another ad to the exact same audience that now is say it kind of follows the previous offers just hot and has a call that’s at the bottom he says if you want me to write it’s very sad. I think it’s like if you want me to write where you a message like I used to say people link just

on private message me or comment. Yes type. Yes. And then you just you know follow up like that.

Anybody listening to this will give such a ton of like like anything of yours that you put out when you write a Facebook post or you shoot a video. There’s always value given you’re a very generous person I think and that’s why you know that’s why you’re doing so well. One of the reasons why you’re kicking ass so much.

I appreciate that man. You’re very nice. Nice.

And for everybody else of course we’re back again with another exciting edition of the podcast. If you listen to this one. Macbeth and you can hear the rest of this interview on take over Tuesday because that’s how we’re going to be doing it from now on will be releasing a part on the method and the rest on take over Tuesday. So until then you know hit me up with any questions you have and and we’ll see what exciting guests we have next week. Ta-Ta

The post Episode #154 – Carlos Redlich On A Simple Strategy Which Makes Copy Clients Beat Down Your Door – Every Single Day! appeared first on McMethod.

Apr 11 2017



Rank #15: Episode #52 – Michael Silk On How to Gain Extreme Empathy In Your Market

Podcast cover
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Here’s the problem with your business.

Maybe you can rattle off 15 product features…


You might even have the writing chops to “re-frame” those features as benefits… 

…but here’s what you’re missing:

Your customers don’t give a damn.

Truth is –

Your most profitable customers ONLY care about one or two problems your product solves.

Sell the wrong benefit –twi

...and your sales will suffer.

Key in on the RIGHT benefit –

…and you’ll see geometric increases in your revenue.

In this episode –

Veteran copywriter Michael Silk returns to dish on empathy:

The 7-letter word that underlies ALL marketing.

Michael joined us back on Episode 42 –

…and shared his seductive F.U.N. formula to write emails that sell. 

(That episode here:

Today –

You’ll discover how to read your customers’ minds.

Study this process –

…and enjoy higher conversions than you thought possible.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • how to dig into your market and figure out what prospects REALLY want
  • how to profit more…by making fun of your competitors 
  • why copywriting “formulas” are NOT the beez-kneez when it comes to sales
  • the make-or-break appeal that’s at the front of your customer’s mind
  • a disgusting “stomach ulcer” lesson in solving REAL pain points
  • one trick your competitors are doing to get a leg up on you
  • why EMPATHY is king


  • Michaelsilkconsulting dot com – Michael’s site

Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

Raw transcript:

Download PDF transcript here.

John: It’s John McIntyre here, The Autoresponder Guy. I’m here with a guest who’s been on the podcast before. His name is Michael Silk. He originally came on to talk about how he wrote F.U.N. emails for a bunch of different companies. One of them was doing a high seven to eight figures. That podcast episode was all about these fun emails which was fun, unusual, and they get noticed.

If you want to check that out, you can go to Originally, we had … On that episode you can get an intro or a background on who Michael is and what he does. He is a copywriter; a damn good one. He has some really interesting ideas, but today instead of going into formulas … We talked a bit about this before the call. The idea of fun, that’s a bit of a formula.

Today I wanted to talk a bit about why formulas aren’t … They’re just not everything you need. There’s a little bit more. We’ll get into that. We are going to talk about a few different things. This is more of a free-flowing podcast. I’ve done a few of these in the past and I have no idea where they are going to end up, so we’re just going to have some fun.

How you doing today, Michael?

Michael: I’m very good. Thanks, John. Yeah, thank you.

John: Good to have you back.

Michael: Yeah, good to be on. Like you, we’ll just see where this podcast goes and I’m sure some good ideas will come out it and bring a lot of value to it.

John: Sounds good. Take 2. Second time lucky, right? So this is … This is our second take, second attempt at this podcast. This doesn’t happen too often but sometimes you’ve got to hit the stop button, delete it, and start again. Fingers crossed. ‘

Let’s talk about these formulas. Just before I hit the record button, we were talking about how a lot of people are out there teach formulas. There’s nothing wrong with formulas, but you made an interesting point about why … basically why you don’t want to talk too much about formulas. You think are some more important things. Can you rap on that for a little bit?

Michael: Yeah. First of all, I know your podcast is mostly directed to people writing email copy. I should just mention that although I do write email copy I don’t see myself through the lens of just an email-marketing copywriter. I write sales letters. I do write email copy. I also write video sales letters. I come to the conversation as it were with more of an overall perspective. First off, off the bat, I’m not dissing any formulas. I gave you that fun formula for our last podcast and all of those are useful. What’s I think … What you wanted to talk about today was this …

I think there’s a couple of things that perhaps go a little bit deeper than formulas. You can … There are so many different sales formulas out there. Probably most people are familiar with the formula. Then there’s the problem agitation solution. There is lots of different markets and copywriters, they’ve all got their own take on those. All of them are useful. Perhaps what’s more useful is getting the right appeal to the market. If I can just explain this with an example.

John: Go for it.

Michael: There was … This is not based on myself but it is based on another copywriter I know of.  He was doing some work for some mortgage brokers, selling to mortgage brokers I believe it was. Now let’s say that this copywriter had followed the very best formula out there. Some copywriters come up with the de facto sales formula. He had followed it to a T.  In his sales letter, he covered all of those elements, the components of that de facto formula that is the very best sales formula out there. He wrote to those … His target market was the mortgage brokers. And he … It was all about getting more clients.

What he found is that when he mentioned getting more clients the sales promotion didn’t ever do as well as when he mentioned getting referrals. Every time he put in his marketing promotions about getting referrals, the response spiked up. That is all that these mortgage brokers were interested in was referrals.

Do you get what I’m saying there? The appeal was the referrals. He could mention getting more clients. He could mention getting paid higher fees. He could mention taking more time off. He could mention having more practices and so on and so forth, but all of that paled into comparison in terms of response compared to when he mentioned getting referrals.

John: Okay, so what you’re saying is-

Michael: It’s all about  the appeal.

John: Right, so you could take a … the best sales letter formula in the world and you could fit any of the appeals in that marketplace into that sales letter. What you’re saying is that, that doesn’t actually matter. You could have the best formula in the world but the formula is beside the point. What makes it the sales letter convert is not the formula or the structure so much as the understanding that the key benefit … This is one thing that I’ve tried to stress before is that people talk about benefits. That you should just go and write a list of benefits for the product, but it’s just not about benefits.

It’s about tapping into the right benefits. What we’re talking about here, benefit or appeal in that the benefit is like you said, they are going to get more referrals. Are they going to get more clients? Are they going to have more time off? The key thing is what benefit do they actually care about. What appeal is actually in the front of their minds when they think about their problem?

Michael: Absolutely. It’s the make or break thing. Again, not to say that the sales formulas are not important. They have their place. I’m just saying that there is deeper stuff to look at.

John: How would … I talked about this a lot in my emails and my … this idea that you need to have empathy and without empathy even the … without empathy, without really understanding what your, what the marketplace wants, the best copy in the world won’t save you. I’ve talked about that with my audience, things like surveys, and going to Amazon, and things like that. What specific things do you do to figure out the appear when you’re writing for yourself or you’re writing for a client? Are there any go-to tactics or strategies? Or do you sit down and visualize yourself in a chair opposite your prospect? How do you do it?

Michael: Again, it would be nice to give a cookie-cutter answer. Unfortunately, life is not always that simple. I think a lot of it for myself, to comes from conversing with the clients. They often got a more of a better understanding of the type of person that … the core clients as it were or their core customers. They have a better understanding with what they want.

I’ll give you an example of that. I write for a company that is involved in the hypnosis, hypnotherapy world. I write a promotion for them that’s, I don’t mind saying, didn’t work. It worked but it didn’t work to the extent that we were hoping it did. I wrote the promotion for … it was very much aimed at people that, hypnotherapists and how to get more clients. A lot of their customer base, they don’t actually want to be hypnotherapists. They just want to be able to do a lot of cool stuff with hypnosis.

There was a mismatch, you see. It wasn’t until we went back and conversed more with the client … It was like, ah, you know, this letter would have worked in another arena perhaps better than it did to their customer base.

John: When someone is sitting down to write an email or a sales letter or any sort of promotion or advertisement, the important thing is not so much the writing. Not being the best writer in the world but having the greatest understanding of the prospect. It’s like … I’ve met plenty of people … it’s funny, a couple of my friends in this industry find this funny as well. When you hear about someone or meet someone and they’ve never studied marketing, they’ve never sat down and written out sales letters by hand, they’ve never read any books or anything by Gary Halbert or any of these guys.

They don’t really know much about marketing yet they have a business that’s just raging. They are crushing it. While they may not understand marketing in the whole direct-response fashion, what they do understand is that … They have a very intimate understanding of what the marketplace wants. That gives them almost a huge, it’s surprising, but a huge advantage over everyone else. Sometimes I feel like me or like some of my friends that where we put so much emphasis on the marketing side of it and being a good copywriter when it seems like almost all of the battle is really just understanding what this main appeal is. What’s the main thing that people want?

Michael: If you take a step back from it, John, and I think it’s good advice for me as well and it’s good advice for everybody. From the customer’s point-of-view, from the buyer’s point-of-view, prospects, how much do they understand about the marketing side of it? Probably not anything. They … What I’m saying is they couldn’t care less if you got the best marketing system in place or you follow the very best sales formula. If you’re not talking to them, if you’re not communicating or connecting with them at the level that they resonate with, that’s all they care about.

John: It’s a bit like a kids. You could say kids are very fantastic sales girls and boys in that they know their parents so well that when they want to manipulate their parents to give them what they want, it just comes intuitively to them. They will say stuff to their parents that just make the parents crumble. They’ve never been trained. No one has ever taught them how to be good at this.

What they do understand is exactly what is important to them and their mother and dad. That allows them to lead, you could say manipulate, but really just lead their mom and a dad around. Sell them on doing something or not doing something. It’s almost like if you can have the magical eye to see what your prospects really wants, what the marketplace really, really wants, don’t even need to worry too much about having the best copy in the world.

Michael: Absolutely. People want to feel that you’re for real as well. They want to have an understanding that you’ve got their best interests at heart. All of that is important.

Another area that I think is important, John, that is what I call cause-marketing. I don’t mean attaching your marketing to a cause as in a charity or a fund-raising event or you know. Often that is denoted as cause-marketing. What I mean is coming up and finding the new or the hidden cause behind the problem that the market has. I think instead of me rapping on and trying to explain this … If I give some examples, I think it will become very clear. If you can find the new … And when I say new it maybe the unknown cause.

It may not actually be the new cause but it may be a cause behind their problem that they’ve not been aware of. If you can bring them that to their attention and bring clarity around that, then that is also very powerful and can create some sales breakthroughs in and of itself. Again, all of these principles … I prefer to talk about them as principles as opposed to formulas, can be applied to email marketing or more traditional sales letters or website copy or even conversations, however you communicate with your market.

In any case, here is some examples of cause, what I mean by cause-marketing. It used to be universally believed that stomach ulcers were caused by excess intestinal acid. Most of the products sold helped alleviate stomach ulcers were based on the concept, on the precept, that they were going to reduce stomach acid. It was then discovered that stomach ulcers are in fact caused by too much of the wrong type of bacteria.

The companies selling remedies to alleviate stomach ulcers, if they can educate and bring clarity to the situation and say, hey, your stomach ulcers are not caused by too much stomach acid but actually caused by intestinal, the wrong type of intestinal bacterial. The reason our product is so superior to all the other products on the market, because it actually targets the real underlying cause of stomach ulcers and blah, blah, blah and etc., etc., etc. Does that make sense?

John: Absolutely.

Michael: If you yourself or anyone listening had a stomach ulcer and they’ve been trying all of these different tablets and … I don’t’ even know what kind of things are that deal with that kind of stuff. If they’ve been dealing with everything and they’re going to the doctors and it’s all been about stomach acid and then all of a sudden they come across something that says, actually, it’s caused by stomach bacterial and this alleviates the problem by targeting the stomach bacteria, etc., etc., etc. it’s like, wow, why has nobody ever told me about that before? That’s the answer.

If you can position your product or your solution as addressing that when nobody else is then it can give you a significant advantage in the sales marketplace.

I’ll give you another example. It used to be, or pretty much still is, universally believed that cholesterol level is the most meaningful indicator of heart disease, whereas it’s becoming more common knowledge that the actual, real underlying cause and best indicator of heart disease is something called your blood homocystine level. If you can out with a product, a heart pill or whatever, that actually educates the reader into you being … Cholesterol is not where it’s at, it’s actually … You need to get your homocystine levels checked and this product will reduce those. Then again, you can create a significant sales advantage for yourselves.

I’ll give you another example and this actually from a real example. There was a company, a maintenance supply company in the United States, the sales, utility, maintenance, goods to businesses … Things like kind of maintenance stuff from brooms to probably big industrial cleaners and everything like that. What was happening is that had accounts across the county with a number of businesses but they were losing a lot of those accounts because the businesses were going more locally to buy maintenance supply equipment as and when they needed it.

The big, centralized maintenance company that had been supplying businesses all across the country started to lose a lot of business because the businesses could buy more locally and buy cheaper. they addressed this problem by … They were able to show … They were able to go back to the businesses and say, look, you closed your account with us, but they were able to demonstrate this in raw format that a company buying its items locally could actually buy those items locally a lot cheaper as and when they wanted to. But when they factored in all of the disruption costs, the buying costs, the storage costs, and what these companies were tending to do, the businesses were tending to do, is that if they needed to replace one item they tended …

It’s human nature that you would buy three items just in case you got backup. They were actually spending more over the course of the year. They were able to buy the items more cheaply but they weren’t able to save money throughout the year. The big, centralized maintenance supply company was able to go back and demonstrate that they were actually causing themselves to spend more money. Now they’ve got a lot of these businesses coming back on board and reopening their accounts. Although they were able to buy the items cheaply, they didn’t have … They weren’t able to reduce their management costs of buying, if that makes sense. That’s a bit of a convoluted …

John: Tell you what’s going on here. They can buy them for say $10 at the main-, the big maintenance national warehouse guys, but if they’re buying them from the local guys they can buy it for say $8 which is a cheaper price.

Michael: Yeah.

John: Then what’s the reason that they should go back to the big one?

Michael: If they’re buying them $8 locally they can buy the item obviously cheaper. When they’ve got to factor in the time that it costs someone to actually to and make the purchase, to go and have the thing delivered, companies were tending to buy, if they’re going to buy one we may as well buy two or three so we’ve got backups in future. Then they’ve got storage costs that they’ve got to take care of. All of these ancillary quote-unquote “hidden costs” all of a sudden start adding up. Where they can by the item for say $8, it may in actual fact be costing them $15.

John: Okay.

Michael: The big centralized company was able to go back and show that actually what buying from them … From buying from independent stores, they were actually causing themselves to spend more money.

John: Okay. Then they had a promotion that went out that basically explained what was really going on.

Michael: Yeah.

John: Then the people came back. Okay. To bring that back, this goes back to the idea of the cause. If you can see into the problem better than prospect can and explain it in a way that really, really makes sense, it’s going to connect with them.

Michael: I think a big part of the job of a quote-unquote “copywriter” or however you want to label yourself up as or an email person or marketer is to bring clarity to your target audience. I think if you can be a source of clarity and … into what is for all of us a very cluttered world. There is so much information out there but if you can bring clarity around their situation and their problem, they immediately identify with you as somebody as having the solution for them. That comes back again to you mentioned the word empathy. How do you in practicality demonstrate empathy?

You could be sitting where you are writing your promotion, feeling very emphatic for your target market, but how does that actually transfer across to them? If you can bring clarity to the situation, all of a sudden you’ve already provided a service to them.

John: It’s a bit like when you have a problem, a personal problem sometimes, and it helps to go and talk to a really good friend about it. You sit down, you go out with your friend for coffee, and you start talking. You just go into event mode where you talk your way through the whole problem. Sometimes the friend just listens, sometimes the friend is able to add a bit of perspective, but what you really walk away with from that conversation is clarity. It’s the hard part when you have problems.

When I … If I’m going about my day and I’m used to having a lot of energy, which is pretty typical, some days, there’s a day where I can’t get out of bed or I crash and burn at 3pm, it makes me really frustrated unless I know what’s making me tired. If I go, hang on, I ate a plate of rice over lunch, that’s going to be it. All of a sudden there is no need to worry about it. When I don’t know what’s going on or maybe I thought it was the plate of rice and then I tried … then I get rid of the plate of rice at lunch but it still keeps happening. I’m frustrated and it’s annoying. When I finally figure out what’s going on, in comes that clarity. I can relax now.

Michael: Yes, you’ve still got the problem. Some to me, yes, is burn a bit yesterday afternoon. My heart felt really e … Two days before I did some really heavy leg-training work, weight training. I correlated it now but that really takes it out of me. It can kind of creep up on me. It doesn’t … Straight after the workout I feel really buzzed and alive. Then a day or two later it really … It’s just like you’re saying there. It’s like, ah, that’s the reason for that is that and now I don’t have to worry about it too much.

John: If you could come in and explain to someone, basically give them clarity and what’s going on with problem, that’s going to build an enormous amount of trust it what you’re about and what you’re going to end up selling them

Michael: But clarity in a way that it identifies as the real cause behind what’s happening.

John: Not clarity for the sake of clarity. Clarity with a purpose.

Michael: Yes.

John: How would … An interesting topic would be how would, say I’m … This is a hard thing to think of. How would one go about finding or giving someone clarity? Let’s say you’re in marketing and you’re trying to sell something. You’ve got several competitors and you all seem to be saying the same thing more or less. Do you have to … It sounds like it’s worth spending quite a decent chunk of time as well as I’m trying to understand your prospect, trying to look for angles in the market that would give you a leg up on your competitors  if you could walk in and you could explain something that no one else has explained.

That’s an interesting way of looking at it. If you could for a U. S. P. or a unique approach you could go in there and explain something that no one else is explaining. You might sell the same thing, but if you explain something that no one else has really touched on yet and it’s a bit of a paying point that’s going to be a big win.

Michael: Absolutely. I’m just … This like … This is an area, John, that is, it’s not something that is a … it takes thinking but I think this what we’re discovering for this conversation. It’s not just a ready-made answer to everything. This is the kind of stuff that you have to cut a bit deeper with. Often times, there’s not ready-made answers like you can just pull out of a hat, and oh, I can used that read-made answer to this. It does take a bit of investigation and bit of introspective sometimes and thought into it and some time. You have to circle the desk as it were. I think … Here’s my take on it.

Probably like you and probably like a lot of people listening to this recording or who will listen to it at some stage, if I read in a sales letter online sometimes it can have all the right elements to it but it still leaves me a bit cold. It’s saying all the right things. It’s just somehow I don’t just quite … sometimes I just quite put my finger on it. I can’t … It’s something just not resonating with me or something I just don’t feel comfortable parting with money for. It all sounds good but I don’t quite …

This happened the other day actually. This brings to mind something the other day. There was a program, a selling system being sold by somebody who is quite well-known. They have a celebrity appeal as it were. They have a selling system that they are currently promoting. I watched … There wasn’t a letter for it, it was actually an interview webinar thing. I watched it all and I didn’t … It’s strange, it was almost like I wanted to buy it but then I didn’t feel comfortable buying it. There was something lacking. There was something … and I think you’re hearing I don’t know quite what it was.

The more I think about it, I think what it was is that I didn’t understand the reason why it would work above and beyond any other system. I didn’t understand the mechanics of it.

It was like … Going back if we tie this back into to where I was talking about the cause marketing or coming up with a quote-unquote “new cause behind the problem” that obviously can be quite difficult to do because sometimes there isn’t another known cause behind the problem. Everybody knows what the cause is. It’s universally accepted. It’s universally been proven or whatever. Everybody knows what the underlying cause of the problem is. I’m trying to think of an example off the top of my head and I can’t quite.

You get what I’m saying? There is no new cause you can come up with. What you can do is that you can illuminate on what you’re selling. You can go into … You can get somebody to … Here’s where I’m going with this, you want somebody to conceptually understand why the thing that you have actually works.

John: Okay.

Michael: For example, let me try and give an example because otherwise I’m talking very surface-level. Let’s say, for example … What should we talk about, John?

John: I’m thinking-

Michael: Let’s say, let’s say, okay … for the gym. Somebody wants to pull a muscle at the gym. There are so many different supplements out there … protein shakes and muscle-building supplements and so on and so forth. They, nearly all of them will take basically the message is, take this and you will gain x-amount of muscle.

John: Right, right.

Michael: In x-amount of days.

John: I see where you’re going with this.

Michael: What really … Personally what I would want to say is show me why it would work. Don’t just tell me that it will … Don’t just … I think this goes back to you saying before about the benefits … keep … okay so you’re going to get more muscle and you’re going to look good and blah, blah, blah, and you can reduce your fat and so on and so forth. You can train better and you can have more energy. All of those … All of that is a paid-end stuff. All of that is, yes I want all that. I want it but I may not necessarily be comfortable buying it because I don’t quite believe, I don’t’ quite have the conceptual understanding, the clarity of why it would it. If I take this, what’s it going to do on my …?

If somebody can come along and communicate that. Not necessarily in a very anatomical, biological way but in a way that perhaps uses analogies and so on and so forth. It’s like you can paint a picture into someone’s mind. Oh, it get why that works now. I want the benefits. I now understand why it would work. I understand what causes it to work. I now feel comfortable buying it. You’ve got this emotional side just to want those benefits but the logical side is like …

John: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I can think of a few different examples. One, one is that a couple of weeks ago I saw some ads popping up on Facebook for another make-money-online product. It was a very niche one but still very much a make-money-online. It looked the same, the way they all look. Very — claims. Very make x-amount of dollars in x-amount of time and all that sort of stuff. I read it for a bit. I always scan those things just to see what is going on, but I didn’t buy it. Obviously, I want that, I want to make $10,000,000 in an hour and all that sort of stuff. That’s not going to happen. You can’t really … You haven’t told me how it’s really going to do it.

Then I spoke to a friend today who has actually … He told them about not so much the product but he explained that he was using a strategy to make money. Then  he told me about the product. He told me about how it all worked, how he was making money. I was like, all right, that all makes sense. That’s a great explanation. Then I … and then he mentioned the product that I had seen a couple of weeks ago. Finally, by that point, I knew what the product was offering. Then from him I had the explanation of why the product worked. Then I went and bought the product because now you can back up those claims, knowing how you’re going to achieve those claims.

Michael: That’s an excellent example. He conceptually understood the mechanics behind it, mechanics that would make it work.

John: Yeah. This is like when you go, you sound like you’ll get a six-pack or you’ll lose x-amount of weight or anything like that. When you can explain it that there is some unknown recently discovered mechanism within the body that when you ingest 100 mg of RHEA and Vitamin D 30 minutes prior to be that has an effect on … who knows, your digestive system blah, blah, blah. He explained the whole scientific mechanism and layman’s terms in a way that’s very easy to understand. Perhaps you explain it like a classic way. You put a chain on the … I’m coming up with stuff now.

Michael: You’re doing a much better job … You’re doing a much better job than me, John.

John: Yeah, you would take something, give it a good explanation, and then all of a sudden it’s so much more believable. I’ve had fun with friends out … Sometimes we’ve been out drinking and I’ll start off a story. A couple of my friends, they know what I do, they know that I write stories like this for a living. I’ll start telling a story. There might be a few people there that might not know what I do and I’ll tell a story about what, about something.

I know that by telling the story and almost … speaking with a very authoritative tone as though the claim or the result is guaranteed and here is how it works. Then you just explain it with a very serious voice and make it interesting on why x is true. Most people will believe it. They start going, ah, how did they, ah. They really … They’ve got no idea whether to believe you or not. It’s absolutely incredible. Even if the explanation is absolutely crazy, just the mere fact that you have an explanation seems to bolster their belief big time.

Michael: Yeah, and it comes back to that … What Jay Abraham was saying, you know if you want to sign a secretly, silently begging to be led. Again, it’s a way of emphasizing leadership and authority. You don’t have to … It’s not like banging the drums kind of authority. It’s not talking down to anyone. It’s demonstrating authority by the way that you’re able to come into a situation. Again, on account of all of these things, the sound like they’re all different separate techniques but they’re not. They all fit … They all weave together.

Again, by being able to demonstrate this authority and this, and the mechanics behind why something would work brings us back into the area of clarity. You proved clarity to the situation again. I think what ideally in sales everybody … The holy grail is always, is everybody to say yes to what you’re saying all the time. I think actually what you want is, yes, because ultimately you would like someone to say yes to buying something from you. I think actually it’s more profound to have actually somebody say, ah, I’ve never actually thought about it like that before.

Like, huh, it’s like that. Here’s what’s coming to mind. Instead of just relaying information to somebody to make the sales, make the sale, you’re communicating in such a way that the person is getting insight. When they have their own insight into what’s being said, they feel very much drawn to you and very much drawn to the mission and very much drawn to the products. It’s like their internal idea. It’s like I’ve discovered this and nobody else knows this. Ah, I put A and B together in my own mind. Does that make sense?

John: You trigger, you make people think differently about something. You give them a new perspective. Some people say to say what no one else is saying. Go into an industry and start calling … don’t’ call people out by being a douche bag but its say stuff in a way that no one else is saying. Try and talk about stuff that no one else is talking about. I’ve seen this … You can see this with copywriting and I saw it recently with something completely different. There is a site out there that sells stock videos. That’s where you might get a video of, any of those videos you might have seen in an advertisement on television. This is the sort of company that does it.

Now they created an ad for their website which actually poked fun … Yeah, it was basically a, about … What was it? It was an ad where they have different words on the screen like vision and truth and progress and then they have an image of a train in the background. The writer was just reading out the … I guess explaining the mechanism of, ah, so we’re trying to inspire people so we’re going to use forward-thinking words like progress and like I said vision and positivity. These flash up where there’s an image on the, in the video of someone reaching their hands to the sky on top of a mountain with sunflowers all around. The whole video was just poking fun at how companies use these stock videos to try and make a point and present themselves as some world changing company. They are saying something that no one else is saying. It’s like poking fun at all the corporate companies. When you watch it, you can’t help but think differently about the whole thing. All of a sudden, oh, yeah, that’s totally rad. Aha, I see what they’re doing. That kind of thing.

Michael: Yeah.

John: The aura effect. We’re right on-time here. Before we go, I give people a heads-up about where they can find you if they want to learn more or how I even used to work with you. What is the best place for them to go?

Michael: I have a website where I hang out online which is my name, so it’s

John: Consulting.

Michael: Consulting I N G dot com. Yeah.

John: That will be in the show notes at and any other links to anything else we mentioned in this show. Michael, thanks for coming on again.

Michael: Appreciate it. Thank you very much.

The post Episode #52 – Michael Silk On How to Gain Extreme Empathy In Your Market appeared first on McMethod.

Apr 08 2014



Rank #16: Episode #162 – Ian Stanley On Email Discoveries OF An Online Batman (And Water-preneur)

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Ian once lived in an RV and made money with what he calls “sports investing”.

He’s written dating books and sold satellite TV at big box stores.

He majored in Netflix and procrastination.

When he ran some Bing ads to make his first dollar online he did the pony dance around the room and hasn’t looked back.

Focusing on a single skill he could become great at he leveraged his time…

and went from 5 dollar emails to $1500 dollar emails.

After immersing himself in email copy for big clients and starting his own water company…

Ian’s paying it forward.

Listen to the journey of a hilarious marketing renegade as he details his journey.

The tools, opportunities, habits and outcomes of a real success story.

What’s are you waiting for?

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • Can you trust internet marketing email advice? The discoveries Ian made writing emails in the “real world”.
  • The only success barometer Ian used when learning to write copy.
  • What resources did he use to educate himself? Some thoughts on popular email writing courses – and why he created his own.
  • The three core parts of his new water business “Fixt.”
  • Hilarious anecdotes, green Jaguars, and a real lesson on split-testing – all in this episode.


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey, everybody We’re back with another edition of the podcast. I’m David Allan. We got a very interesting guest. You have sorta heard from before. His name is Ian Stanley. He’s got to become a little bit famous for his email copywriting as his own water company now we’re sort of going to get the lowdown on all of that here in the next little while so Ian welcome to the show.

Ian Stanley: Thank you sir.

David Allan:It’s good to have you on here. Man I don’t know a ton about you I know little bits and pieces like we talked about off the air. So maybe first of all anybody…

Ian Stanley: nobody knows the real story. It’s all shrouded in mystery and now it is in characters.

David Allan: I’m guessing he’s like he’s Batman.

Ian Stanley: I mean I can say I’m not that. I will say that you’ll never see Batman and me in the same room.

David Allan: So maybe take us back to your Bruce Wayne days before he became Batman…

Ian Stanley: Maybe this is going to let the cat out of the bag he’s bad at it. Well a lot of it gave a good idea. I mean I genuinely thought I was going to be Batman. And I know that sounds like a joke it’s probably the most serious thing I can say.

I mean I had all of my plans. I had like intricate setups for how I would do it. I had researched all the ways to actually make it happen. And I was really convinced I would become Batman.

So that was your plan to become like mega-wealthy and then like fight crime.

Yeah well it wasn’t about. It was about skill acquisition and wealth at the same time. So what would make me the most useful vision of Batman.

So there were different avenues that I thought about going and that’s and it had it had a sort of Batman on a budget as well.

It was going to say I think they could see what I was going to have to aliens or you know or or Brislin that early but I figured I could develop it once I was an enemy. Sure. You know I could figure it out. But yeah that was I mean I actually had a moment so in like one of the I’m more of a Christian Bale that I’m jammed in like a comic book and I enjoy the realism of that one.

But is like the intro’s Batman as a character back in the 1930s 7.

There’s a moment where Bruce Wayne sitting in his in his home where is man a man and and a bat flies in and it’s you know flying around the room and he’s like oh fuck. I’ll be back in the room and that’s how he sort of has the realization. And weirdly enough when I was like 20 I had a bat fly into my room and I had this like look at my parents place and I’d just like you know we call it the hobbit hole. It was not really a guest house nor a room that was separate with no water or anything. I had the bat flying around my room and I. And it’s actually really interesting watching a bat

trying to leave the room because they they’re trying to locate their way out so it just it circles for about seven minutes. And then finally got out of this. There’s like a stained glass window that had broken. And he finally figured it out and got out and so I was like come on really.

This is clearly it. And so it’s meant to be.

And so you know I’ll say publicly that I’ve given up that dream because if I do it you know it will be like what can be going on.

I’m getting three calls from the same number in a row. I hate to do this but this is think this is the conflicts and to me this would be good to be interested in our podcast. It’s not a rail on the car fixer.

Yeah. I’m coming up my my body’s coming up right now. I’m on a phone call so he’s trying to keep. It’s on the second floor it’s a green jag. Yeah it’s Pam.

Gate code. Now.

You. See students on the second floor. All right. What you like about the green Jack. Yes. If anybody on this stall now comes to Austin Texas you know the gate code to get into my apartment complex. It took me a few weeks to locate the building but then you’re good to go. Yeah it’s I’m sure it’s somewhere on the internet I’ve accidentally put my address out something I’d bet on.

So some mistakes or it leave a couple of those digits just to get just to keep it exciting.

Yeah they can get it together after all bad bad you know yeah. Come on try to steal.

So maybe you have. Obviously would listen to this. You have an accent. Get off the air you told me you had to start a cruise.

Yes I’m having this North American which means everything is a mystery and so out of that I grew up partially in California and in England.

So my mom is from Ventura California and my dad’s from Liverpool. And so over time it’s just morphed into a basically an Australian accent my business but it is a strain as well.

Sorry I was with him in New Orleans and after a couple hours with him I’m just like my it full on Coghill so I’m sure if you listen to the podcast with John you guys would probably really like by the end sound the same.

So what were you doing before. Like what do you suppose you were. It was the exact address. And then what what led you to where you are at. Malik how did this start.

Know when I was a sophomore I transferred there from SMU in Texas and then moved to Santa Cruz and I was living in a mobile home and the store is a live in a mobile home next to a 400 pound woman named ape who had a mullet.

And I’m like a 70s and she. She got around in a wheelchair not because she couldn’t walk but just because she preferred not to.

So it was as I was living that I was basically doing like in between my transfer I was taking my two classes at a community college because I’d applied so late that I wasn’t studying till the next trimester was I could go get some glasses and so it was like two hours a week though so the rest of the time I was just sitting at home and playing tennis. But I was playing with CNN. So I did that but other than that I was just in my apartment or in my mobile home just on the Internet and I clicked on ads and different shit and I bought some you know how to make money in your underwear. I got into Herbalife. I actually made money sports betting.

I was investing in.

I called it and I did well do that and then I but I kept basically buying clipping products I said when I did the first time I went to a quick break. I thought that the 50 percent commission was the conversions I was like OK half like half the people who see this page will buy it and if that was the case we’d all be billionaires. But so you know it wasn’t the conversion rate. But I kept on buying quick buying products and how to make money on mine basically not making any money on my own to do anything. There were a lot of them are pretty shitty products as well. I like the God which we call bullshit and it’s sort of that and then I it. JR I had

gotten some coaching at the guy actually who now ironically lives in Austin and it’s kind of funny because I was a complete nobody and had made a dime. But then he told me to get orders on the madness that I did. And then I started writing and I decided to submit Jouni. I wrote a book on how to pick up women and called sexual and sexually which is potentially still out there somewhere. It’s actually very you look to me like three days I just sat down and read it and saw it and then I did it. Little bit of you know copy for other people like say like to clients I was in Brazil for a month over the summer and it made like eleven hundred dollars and I said

whoa she’s crazy. But I also I think it came out to like five dollars an e-mail which now it’s 15 under G.M. So it’s like a little bit of a difference in the time commitment it took. Sure. But it was an exciting prospect. And so from there I tried to you know do what everybody else did which is build the website and create a product and run transit write copy and all that shit. And I was like no. So I wrote a pretty seltzer down bad ass and me bought some buying ads and that was how I actually made my first like dollar on my mine my senior year.

And I remember I had $613 sale and I just went running through my apartment spanking my ass like he’s riding a horse just so excited and then I remember like taking a final and I came out of my final and there was a $113 in 68 cents. Again an account like this is amazing. I just got paid to take a test and then I after college should’ve majored in Netflix.


Felt a university degree like six seven months of that I was I worked selling direct tv like a best buy. Well and I actually did quite well I got to be top salesman after a few weeks but I was like working 60 hours a week and Saturday Sundays with 10 hours and I was like this sucks. So I was coaching tennis and I was making 17 hour coaching tennis something like that makes more sense. So I just coached tennis like 10 hours a week and finally made a commitment to get good at one thing instead of doing what everybody else was doing which was trying to build the site and do the go and all that shit. I was like I’m very good at college because I think I’m decent at it.

You know let’s just do that. Did that. And I would hand-copied I did copy out Derek Franzen’s product is now because he’s got mine and we would my only barometer for success of the day was you know did I hand-copied today. So I’d do it half an hour of handicapping and and then I got a job contracting job that pretty much close to full time teaching writing copy for the personal finance space land shifts and we had like a 1.2 million person list. And so I just Sektor the shit out of every now and and you know squit tested you know four to eight variations on every single email and just got crazy data. And from there

I turned that into sort of a system and then I actually originally was creating this like teaching it so that whoever took over from me could write emails so. OK so you’re like a yes or that they want to start over and then turn it into a product that I sell on occasion. And in this 80:20. Yeah how I open it up everyone so I could do a ton more with it but my focus is I just never wanted to only make money teaching people how to make money. You know the coach the coach he coach coaches some coaching coaches about coaching and all that bullshit. So I waited until I’d actually made money writing books because I could’ve created a product club for them but it would have been a lie which is what

most people do. So did that name. And then I worked with a company called Crisis education wrote all the copy down and we had if you had a supplement company and a water company. And then I left there about a year ago and I started my own company about seven months ago. So I still do some copy and some consulting on the side because it pays sort of have an equation that I’ve used. Not really on purpose before now I’m pretty aware of it. It is basically leveraging high dollar per hour tasks to build assets that aren’t paying high dollars per hour now. So like when I

was coaching tennis I was getting 70 to 100 an hour. A lot of cash and I was writing copy for $20 an hour. And I was you know writing I was doing that work for about 30 hours a week and then coaching 10 to 15 hours a week. So that allowed me to make money and so on and sort of basically Actually all I did was just save the $20 and stuff I just saved everything and then I only spent cash and so saved up and then from there by and then so now it’s going back and I did quite well. You know I did a. I was paid quite well as a copywriter. The next job because I had a big bonus. But I mean quite

well relative is a relative term. But in the six figures and then from there now basically will leverage the. So I sort of go. It’s like you know now there are tasks that a 2000 to 5000 an hour. And so you go why don’t you just do more of those. And it’s like well I could there’s no asset being built. Whereas with with the water company it’s an asset. And so I don’t pull cash out of that. And I just use the other money to fund the business and grow that as an asset. So and it’s a lot more cash than when you’re building a physical products business. There’s a lot of inventory and a lot of cash flow. It gets tied up restructuring the beginning. So it’s definitely a long

game but email is still the backbone and VSL is the backbone of what I really do. And then sort of the viral video type stuff as well is something you’ve.

Stepped into. Yeah.

Maybe walk it’s like you got that first job with the financial person and hook you up with they come to you through the hour. How did you get that first.

So I applied for a job actually through andré’s under Shepherd was listed as a job to work with. It would’ve actually been Steve Gray.

So I was working with the recruiter and I got down to like the last two people and it was going to be like a six figure job and I was like why are they still talking to me. Obviously done a good job of pretending it’s not mine. They’re not hiring a guy who is like 40 and lives an hour away from them and had 10 years experience and like OK whatever that’s fine. But during that time she connected me with the guy who actually might Colella her as sort of the best media buys around. And he was going to hire that person to do like H-G mantle and some coding and also copy and all these different things and I was like Yeah all right copy. And he was like OK well or pay you and somebody else we hired two people and we were bigger

that business. So it’s just through we might things always just taking every opportunity possible always saying yes until you get successful and then it’s all about saying no which is really really counterintuitive because you’re like OK I got here by saying yes all the time. Now I keep saying yes and I want to get to myself.

So how do I say no.

And you like where you start with that and you end up with that.

Stop fucking worrying about missing out on stuff. So I just take an opportunity.

Absolutely. It’s a hard habit to break.

Once we work your way it would be like playing a sport and you know you get to the top by practicing for 30 minutes a day and then go at once you to something like oh no that’s actually going to hurt you now. Right now like why that doesn’t make sense this is how I got here. Like no no no. You’re going to lose if you do that.

That doesn’t make sense but in this world it’s that is what happens is basically your path ends up becoming its own obstruction.

So as the auto responder madness was out was I your only.

Aside from that you know copying and so you mentioned was that the only course you take him aside for copy hours the only resource I think so I I sort of ended up like my thing with orders one Amandas and I honestly don’t know and I did then settle stuff as well. And like get those great copywriters in my grade. My only thing is just like once you get out of the internet marketing space it’s a completely different world. And so it’s nothing against them it’s more just like when you get into a list of a million people that you don’t you can also just say well don’t worry about spam complaints we’re going to say well

that means you don’t get deliverability on a million people. You can not wear it you know you can’t just also be so a lot of these people don’t know how the Internet works. And so like I say like with the e-mail copy stuff that I write to my own email list like throughout the for my course I get 80 to 90 percent opens and 50 to 60 percent click through just through the entirety of the first month. And those are buyers and that is but the whole thing is like that people who worry about e-mail who want to write you know who will read your e-mail only if it’s to see what you’re doing with e-mail. And so it’s like to pretend like that’s normal is all extra year. And so it was a much different game so I took a look at Andre has some great

stuff. I think it’s very complex. The new people and it’s very sexy though it’s the sexiest shit out there. Right. It’s. But it’s about how to implement you know taking an hour or two to write an e-mail. It’s just not my thing I wrote I wrote most I mean I was in five to 15 minutes and right so it’s just like that’s too long. So what I did is I took that as concepts of open loops nested loops and stuff and and I what I do is write the stuff and then I’ll go back and put those and so takes about 10 percent of the time. As you know writing these intricate stories and all this and then the other thing is it’s like when you’re buying a traffic scale you can’t you know you know waiting 14 days to make it to get you purchase

like 90 days zero value you need Day seven do you and you can sort of avoid that right. I mean it’s selling today. Yeah. And so you know you may base it off you may take a 14 day loss but you can’t wait till the 14th. And that’s what this really does. But it’s really good stuff. I just think you also have to become quite a good writer. If you do it well it can be done very well but it takes a lot of time and effort.

And then then the stuff I think there’s some really great stuff just in daily emails and the worst thing that stuff though is that because I’ve fallen into this trap sometimes it’s like me the sun daily or you don’t send it all you’re much better off sending two or three times a week consistently and sending seven in a row than zero. Then wait two weeks then send seven men right cause you get this idea of it’s not a daily it’s not worth it. It is months. So that’s the only thing where I think mindset wise to get stuck if I’m not reading daily It doesn’t matter.

It’s like no you still make money. So I do send mostly daily with the water list and then with adults you know we send up to twice a day. Right. And typically the more you send the more you make.

I’ve had clients and I talked clients to send it three times a day.

What’s the most I could do.

You know it really depends I mean also it’s like people track e-mail in a vacuum. You know it’s based on individual stats and it’s like all you really have to look at the whole picture because which is tough and is never really going to be a solution to that because you never know that maybe e-mail for a set the frame too.

And for the for you know for you know six seven men in that. So I also found out my car is not going to be fixed.

So it’s there for the taking. I think we got those numbers earlier. So that’s basically what you were doing your. You got the luxury I would say the it’s like how I would put it because I learned how to do e-mail originally from Matt fury.

Yeah I know. Actually I have done some of that stuff and I was with I met Matt a couple months ago. Son in Florida I think he’s kind of sort of you know been kind of took a lot of his stuff and made it available which is which is good because I mean it wasn’t available so that Matt really writes in a unique way that like really pulls you through. I read that when when he sends e-mail still open it can answer.

I really enjoy his writing.

Yeah he uses it just like he’s done it the right way sort of like crafted this.

I mean it’s who he is. So that’s you know who he’s become I guess in a way. But he’s just is an intriguing person over also makes that translates well to his e-mails where he writes this. Yeah absolutely. A big bonus. Now when it came to about You’d be lucky to work for such a big company because you got the opportunity to sort of look at you know most people the person today is only really three people.

But we had this on this list and so think a list right. And so what I did is I mean I could have just sent e-mails and do whatever. But I had this spreadsheet I’d put together. And I’m like Meet me in person or hang out with me I’m like the least spreadsheet person needed to.

The facts.

But if I to that though I oddly why I got my emphasis in accounting in college. And so even though I’m like the last person who could ever be an accountant I might be good with numbers right. Like on race I used to for sports betting I had these intricate spreadsheets that I would use that I’d made and then with email I did the same thing so I would dissect the top and bottom subject lines and then. And so we would test anything from four to eight subject lines to two separate body copy to link text to. So I got to test all of these different factors because we had so much data and so every test was at least

20000 people so statistically significant. And that was one of the biggest things I learned there too is how much of the data people publish on line is spoken bullshit because it’s like they don’t have a picture of themselves out of 100 I have a 7 percent conversion rate and was my internal list and were crushing it and it’s like you just don’t even talk to me. And I’ve seen big companies do it like. And they just publish something like 400 visits and you don’t get to do that like an insignificant no. And so but it was really cool because I would I would do every test at least three times and then I became a principal. Awesome. And then I would. So I created like I like 70 different subject line just formulas like you just plug in at any time and they just give you ideas to write and

then I had like eight to 10 different types of e-mails and my two boys made more money than the rest. And so I just dissected this deconstructionists sort of my skill in money. So I would just deconstruct and then create principles and strategies that would then dictate the tactics and techniques. And that was you know so I just got a netted out on on actually analyzing what I liked and what didn’t.

And one other people when I don’t know if it’s people when doesn’t take a lot to get. Like I said because that’s why I feel like this is an opportunity to do that. And you took it.

Absolutely. Every list is so different like when I manage a few different lists and like this one it’s the center of app downloads and it’s decent like a hundred some thousand in it.

They respond well to like CBL offers like if we had them opt in for something else to make money but I’ll send them to one of my office and it’s a lot of people who would be interested in health and just anything over 60 you know 60 bucks they don’t seem to buy it and it’s like sometimes the list just doesn’t buy its things at a certain price and sometimes they’re not interested in that. So it’s like you got to figure out how good your copy is if they’re not buyers it’s those things that matter.

So that was one of the big things I learned too is like I I would you know right it could be the best e-mail possible and it would be about tax and taxes just never with that interesting people just didn’t care whereas I could write an average e-mail about credit cards and get much better results.

It’s like the actual type of stuff you’re sending is a huge part of that. So how could you this if you’re talking to. Yes. He is about snowboarding.

Yeah it’s one of those things where you’ve got the opportunity to sort of find those hot buttons through trial and error. You know you said like people are really receptive to credit card stuff like they want to.

That’s a big obviously a big issue in their lives like most people. So that was a hot button and they were like oh I want to hear what he has to say. Man it’s been great. If people want to get in touch with you you can go to a fixed water site. Obviously all it’s going to get.

You can follow my stuff on Facebook is where I post all my comedic ideas and stuff. Justine Standley or feed the wolf with you instead. I had a page or if you want to opt in and get reminders that says stand up conversions dot com. So Terry diverted Perth. But yeah depends on what you look in to Lance conversions if you opt in and that’s where all occasionally released email Korku product coonhound.

So awesome awesome and it’s been fun it’s passed by extremely fast and it’s always a good indicator.

It’s good conversation going on.

Awesome awesome man. Thanks for coming on the show. For everybody else of course is going to listen to this.

We’ll be back again next week with another edition of the podcast and hopefully it will be as entertaining and as Batman like as you can stand.

The post Episode #162 – Ian Stanley On Email Discoveries OF An Online Batman (And Water-preneur) appeared first on McMethod.

Jun 06 2017


Rank #17: How to Bribe Your Customers

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In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • 00:28 – how to find an opt-in bribe suited for YOUR audience
  • 00:41 – why the e-book “status quo” sucks
  • 00:53 – 2 bribe ideas you can implement in the next hour
  • 01:13 – the head-scratching reason the length of your bribe DOESN’T matter – and what to focus on instead
  • 01:20 – how most businesses “put the cart before the horse” in their funnel
  • 01:44 – a weird bribe that worked wonders for LeadPages
  • 02:26 – how to offer a bribe without creating ANYTHING new
  • 02:56 – an easy way to stand out from your competition



Download PDF transcript here.

John: Okay – it is John McIntyre here again, the Autoresponder Guy from for another email marketing update. Now, in this video, I am going to talk about bribes, marketing bribes. Some people will do e-books, you can do reports, you can do videos, you can do crash courses. Now, people ask me what is the best bribe? What is the best bribe I can offer to my list.

Unfortunately, the real answer, the good answer is that you have to test, okay. So, a different thing is going to work better for different people, but that is not what you want here. What you want is something you can get started with today. Now, I personally do not like ebooks, I think they take way too long to create, and most people do not even read them.

Some people will, but most people will not read them, okay. So, I would do a crash course. Which is basically my version of how to teach people how to do something, which does not give them so much that they do not need your help, but gives them enough so that they know that you are the expert. And how would you do that? With some sort of video or audio, okay, or a web sheet. Something that is really really quick and easy to create because what we really want right now is speed of execution. That matters a lot, okay.

So, where does this come from? Where do you get the idea for the bride? Okay, so … what you want to do is, if you have not done this already, or if you do not have a good understanding of your marketplace, send out a survey and find out what the previous most painful objects are in relation to your niche. Whether it is weight loss in your market, feeding, even how to swim, you know, out by the river here. And then, create a brand based on that.

So, I know I talked about Clay Collins of LeadPages and one of the webinars he has done. It was, I think, one of the best bribes you could do. It was the top five… It was like the top resources to help you do X. That is like a one-page PDF with five different things that probably linked to an Amazon buy-now page. It is such a simple thing to understand, that people will want to sign up for that.

So, there is no secret here. You really want to be solving a problem with your brand, and ideally you want to do it as fast as possible. I think it takes so much longer to write an e-book. You can do a video in two minutes. You can create a video on how to solve a problem that matters. Sign up now and I will send you a free video of me explaining how to solve X. What I do with my list is I do not give a bribe away at all.

I just tell them that I am going to send them daily email tips on how to do better recon marketing. Okay. That is what I do. You could do that as well. I am going to send you an email every three days. But you have to offer something. If they are going to give you their email address, what are you going to give them in exchange? That is all you need to think about. Based on understanding your market, and do it in a form that works for your personality.

If you are good on video, do it video. If you are good on audio, do it audio. If you are not true enough, do it on audio. I would avoid just doing the e-book. Just eliminate that. That is what everyone else is doing. Forget about the e-book. Do a one-page crypt sheet or a five-page guide. Something really simple and really easy to create or just send out emails. Just tell them you are going to send out emails to teach them how to do acts. Okay. I am John McIntyre, The Autoresponder Guy. You are watching another email market update from the

The post How to Bribe Your Customers appeared first on McMethod.

Mar 17 2014



Rank #18: Episode #48 – James Kemp on Staying Out of Spam and Sending 1 Million Emails Per Day

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Are your emails going straight to Spam?

You spend hours writing your email copy…

Crafting an entertaining story.

Designing the perfect pitch.

And yet –

A chunk of your prospects may never even see your offers.


They were ready to buy, cash in hand.

You might not even know it.

It could be happening now.

Here’s the good news – 

James Kemp can help.

James runs the email marketing at GrabOne, the biggest daily deals site in New Zealand.

GrabOne is like a Daily Candy or Groupon.

They did $130 million in sales in 2013.

The best part?

80%  of that revenue comes via email marketing.

Today, you’ll get a rare look inside the mind of a guy who sends over 1 million emails per day.

Do you have a small or medium-size list?

Then pay attention

…because in this episode, you’ll learn the tremendous upside available to you with email marketing.

The only question is…

How big do you want to scale?

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • 2 multi-million dollar businesses driven by email
  • James’s most important piece of advice for getting your emails seen
  • how to become a trusted source to your prospects
  • the best time of day to pitch your list (HINT: how much is your product?)
  • when it makes sense to pay for email deliverability help
  • how GrabOne gets insane engagement from weather-based email targeting
  • the % conversions e-commerce owners should aim for
  • a few “small hinges that swing big doors” in email
  • one variable that makes tiny lists pay HUGE dividends
  • a challenge for listeners to implement


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

Raw transcript:

Download PDF transcript here.

John: It’s John McIntyre here, The Autoresponder Guy. I’m here with James Kemp. James is a subscriber on the McMethod daily email list and he got in touch with me after I send out an email saying I was looking for people who send a large volume of emails. James sends 35 million emails a month, which is over a million a day. So there are some very specific issues that he’s going through that people who were sending less emails aren’t. I think he’s got some really interesting takeaways that we’ll get into in just a minute. I’ll let James explain all of that. James, how are you doing today?

James: I’m great. How are you doing?

John: Fantastic mate. All right, before we get into the specific issues, tell people a bit about what you do, what you’re working on, and why are you sending so many emails?

James: Yes, so GrabOne started as a daily deal site in New Zealand about three years ago. So number one daily deal site off the back of the success of big companies like Groupon, GrabOne carved out its own little local nation in the New Zealand market. We’ve got just over a million daily subscribers, and then we send about a million emails a day. That covers everything from travel and product all the way through to local experience and stuff. Our partners, we’ve got over 15,000 businesses we work for, and we market anything from a pedicure all the way through to a cruise in Alaska. It’s a business that started as daily deals, but increasingly we’re an ecommerce store first for anything and everything you want to see …

John: Are you there?

James: Yeah.

John: Oh sorry. Just cut out for a second. All right, so let’s talk about that real quick. Just email specifically, you said a minute ago before I hit record that email is the engine that drives the whole thing. Can you explain a bit about that?

James: Yeah, definitely. We’re throwing out about 150 offers a day, and when you’ve build a brand and something that’s as iconic as us in the New Zealand market with 80% of the market share, people are waiting, looking up, and seeing what there is to do, whether it’s a restaurant offer, or a beauty offer, or a holiday. We’re very much connecting people and inspiring them to do something locally. Email is for us the quickest way to get that message out there and also the most economic. It’s broadly two thirds of our business, sending an email out, putting something in front of someone that’s relevant. And relevance is what city do I live in, and what’s around me, and what’s local. And it’s the cheapest, fastest, and easiest channel to do that.

John: I think what’s interesting here is that GrabOne, we’re talking like a massive company on a massive scale here. Some people might think that email marketing is for Internet marketers and small time people. But there’s companies like yours there’s … I read recently about company called Daily Candy and they sold basically a glorified email newsletter for different cities in the States with deals … I don’t think it was deals. I think it was more like restaurants and cool stuff to check out, fashion, that sort of thing, and that sold for $125 million. It’s basically like an email newsletter with content wrote into it as well, which is I just found incredible. And now I’m just seeing these companies pop up all over the place.

I think that’s the first very interesting thing. The second is you guys are doing daily email. Everyone is saying literally daily was way too aggressive, whereas you said the complete opposite.

James: Aggressive, I mean, we make 30 offers in every email we make. Yeah, if you want to sell something, you’ve got to make an offer, don’t you?

John: Right.

James: So we’re putting it out there and we’re making sure we’re sending the right email to the right people. We’ve got algorithms which say what’s your propensity to buy in certain categories based on behavior that you’ve exhibited before. We’re also showing people what other people are buying, have been introducing their social proof elements, how many have we sold, what’s selling faster in your city. But, email, you can’t really beat it in terms of getting something in front of people.

Coupons have been around for a long time, and I think the daily deals model and also ecommerce as a whole meet that apex at the time and said, okay, coupons work, people like a bit of a discount in a deal and value, and now we’ve got a method to put it in front of them frequently, and easily, and cheaply, and they can access it anywhere, especially with mobile and those kinds of things just accelerating. You can get it anyway, you can consume it, you can purchase it. It’s the method.

John: I’m curious, how does this compare to social media for a daily deal site like yours?

James: In terms of revenue social media is about 1% of what we do, which is when you’re a $100 million plus company it’s a big number but it’s still 1%.

John: And then email you said was 80%?

James: Yeah, we’re about two thirds in attribution or direct attribution so it’s how we get out there. It’s the engine. If email goes wrong, which it occasionally does when you’re sending the volume that we’re are, you really notice it.

John: Interesting. I think that’s a cool thing to bring out, is [inaudible 05:31] about social media these days, and another one is content marketing. I think the proof is in the pudding right here. It’s email all the way.

James: Yeah, yeah, we introduced content into email when it’s appropriate, but nothing can beat making an offer to someone, so if you’re sending email, make an offer.

John: Let’s get into some of the … There are going to be some major challenges that a guy like you is going through compared to say a guy with 100 people in his list. So let’s talk about some of that stuff. What challenges are you facing on a daily basis when you’re sending that kind of volume?

James: I think when you’re a big volume and when people frequently fatigue is a big factor, so for us it’s been giving our people or consuming our emails options about how and when they consume them. So for example, by default we send people 2 emails a day based on where they are, but the minimum that you get when you originally sign up is 2 emails a day. So the content is different in both of them.

About 12 months ago we introduced a project to give people an option to receive one email a day. And that was a logical step to churn mitigation, to … people, the last mail is always on subscribing, and that’s been really successful in giving a personalized solution to these people to personalize both in the way they consume it but also in the content of it, because it’s personalized for the individual, which is an algorithm that we’ve built in house.

I think one of the also the biggest challenges is when you’re sending over a million emails a day is stepping outside of the boundaries of the people that control who sees the email, so our friends at Google and our friends at Yahoo and etc., when you’re sending that volume of email, if you send more they don’t get it because they, say, “Well you’re already sending a million. Do you really need to send them that many more?” So you have to operate in a fairly narrow channel of when your volume and scale you need to make sure you’re sending … you’re keeping consistent with that.

I think also in terms of personalization, that’s the massive thing as I mentioned in terms of how many emails people are getting every day, but also in terms of the content. The more you can get the user to put their hand upon or what kind of content they’re going to see, the more credibility you’ve got in their inbox. So I think when you’re looking at such a big number, a million is, you forget that there’s an individual user on the end, so focusing on making sure that the big numbers get there, but making sure they’re relevant to an individual user is a constant challenge. Because even if you segment them down to groups, your top 10 % of purchases are still a big group. So you’ve got to keep focusing on the individual.

John: I think that’s really cool, that relevance in any level, relevance when you’re small, when you’re big, that seems to be the biggest thing. What you’re trying to do is just work out rather than doing it manually, which is what someone in the smaller situation might do, you have to create these algorithms, it’s like Google’s algorithms, that figures out what to send to who.

James: Yeah. And for a small business they create the relevancy because they know they have the better relationship with the audience. They can afford to build a closer bond with those people because it’s a smaller number of them. For us, that job is done by math, but for a small business I think it’s the classic know your audience and know you’re sending too and respond to their wants in the way that they want to be communicated via email.

John: And then you’re sending 2 emails a day. You find that that works for most people?

James: Yeah, definitely. It’s the context of how people receive things nowadays. For us, we’ve created a habit of people checking an email between 6:30 and 8:00 in the morning on the commute, increasing those people to checking it via their mobile phone. And then potentially following up with some of that content to reinforce the things you really want them to see. But also varying some other content within the second email around that light morning period when they’re starting to think about lunch time or there’s time to wind down and they got a bit more personal time at work.

We’re very cyclic so our Monday to Friday is the beast that feeds us, when people are at work and commuting and they’ve got to access to these devices and they want to switch off of whatever they’re doing when they’re in the office. Those mobile devices have made it easier for people to check these kind of things. Making sure that messaging is consistent between the 2 daily emails and getting them back to the site where that purchasing is spiking around early morning and then you get, you see another spike around lunchtime, and then increasing in the evening with mobile and tablet devices. A lot of people are sitting in front of the TV and having a bit of a browse or rechecking the email they saw earlier in the morning and flicking between the content of the two and then purchasing between 6:30 and 8:30 PM.

So if you’re an ecommerce business you’ve got to try to think about that immediate conversion of those devices and when they are likely to be looking at it, and on what device, and when are they going to have the time to make that purchasing decision, and who’s involved in it. High value stuff tends to sell in the evenings with the more impulse stuff tending to sell quickly in the morning, because it’s a snap decision which is easier to make on a mobile, or a tablet, or a desktop.

John: But if you’re buying a holiday to Bali or something you’re going to have to think about it at least for a day.

James: Yeah, yeah. You know what else folks, we’re not the only decision makers as well in that. You usually got to ask for permission, don’t you?

John: Absolutely. One thing I found interesting there is you’re timing emails based on when you think people are going to be checking them, which they’re on the train to work, there are many … If you knew when everyone was on the toilet, which unfortunately that’s that probably at random during the day, but that would be another great time I imagine.

James: Yeah. I haven’t gone that much in depth into our purchasing behavior, but we’ve found some really interesting stuff. Adult products funnily enough have a higher open rate on mobile, and it’s pretty obvious why, you want a bit of privacy. So you’ve got to think about what your product are and what is the likely behavior you’re going to initiate with people and when and where and how are they going to access it.

So if your product has something a bit sensitive then mobile is probably going to be it. But if it’s something such as a holiday or a high value transaction, you’re going to want to know what other decisions makers who are involved in that and what information do you need to get that conversion down the funnel, what information do you need in your email, and what information do you need on your site to sell something.

John: Now I want to step back to deliverability for a second. When you’re at that level, deliverability is a huge issue of whether you can get that email into the inbox. I suppose what are some of the most surprising things you’ve learned about how to get good deliverability?

James: Pay someone to do it. We spend a lot of money on email. The ROI we get on is about 78 times of what we spend on it. When it is 78 times. But when your volume you’re walking the tight rope of subject lines, make sure you’re not including stuff that might get you on a black list or spammed both from an algorithm point of view and from the email providers such as pharmacy or some of the drug products and things like that. Make sure that you can probably change it up as well. So consistency in terms of the time and the messaging and the branding.

John, you take your emails with who they’re from at the beginning in little brackets, and that creates that recognition that it’s from a trusted source. But after a while fatigue may sit in. You change your subject lines, you can put icons on them, you can put little things in there that make sure that people are opening them and not necessarily spamming them. Because if people start to spam your email you may think it’s getting there, but it may not be. Make sure you’re consistent, but you’re changing it up to keep the audience interested.    

John: So some of the tech stuff because I said to you earlier that before we recorded that someone had asked me about SPF records and all the tech stuff, which I have no idea about, but there’s a lot of tech stuff that goes into when you send an email such as I think it’s in the headers, the IP address, the SPF stuff. You’re saying instead of worrying about all that stuff just pay someone whether it’s half million dollars or a million dollars a year like whatever you have to pay them, pay them to do it and then you can just  focus on doing the simple stuff.

James: Yeah, I think that applies at any level. I think you focus on your audience and the message you want to serve them and you get other people to make sure it gets there. Email is a channel. Facebook is a channel. We pay Facebook to make sure people see our messages, but we focus on the message, and to us email is no different. You focus on the message in the audience and make sure someone else gets it there.

John: The interesting thing about deliverability I find is that mostly it just amounts to sending stuff to people who actually want to read, like there’s always hacks and you can pay these companies and use these little things putting icons in the subject line, but in the end of the day you have to be sending stuff to people who want to read or your deliverability is just going to go down.

James: Yeah. And it’s all about engagement, open rate and things like that are really vanity metrics. You can pat yourself on the back about a high open rate, but if no one clicked on the contents of it, then all you had was a clever subject line and you hit someone at the right the time. Yeah, you’ve got to make it the right stuff. But it’s all about the user, or the customer, or the prospect, and how they want to interact with it.

We’ve done stuff on the fly as well. Think about the context of what people are consuming your product. It was raining in Oakland, which it often does one day, and we’ve got the ability to pull together a page that says a load of products from the site pertains to a rainy day, your raincoats and your umbrellas and things like that. And then we send them an email saying, “You know it’s raining outside,” because it was. Your open rates are high and subsequently your engagement is high because you sent a relevant email in the context of what’s happening right outside the window. So you’re making that little bit of extra effort to connect with those people based on the context of where they are.

Not everyone’s got the ability to do that, but if you know their location of where users are and you maybe know something is happening in the general area or there’s a major event around it use it because you’re giving people context for what they’re doing and they’re more likely to open your email than the other 10 that are sitting in their inbox at the same time.   

John: The rest of them, they’re not relevant, they’re not as relevant as saying it’s raining right now.

James: No, you’re reading their mind, don’t you?

John: Yeah.

James: Well, well.

John: How does he know that?

James: I know it’s raining. Yeah, it’s just that other layer that other people don’t have that you can add onto the context and you’re going to be the one who cuts through the inbox.

John: What about mobile email design? Are you sending … and then related to this is HTML versus text email, what are you finding … because you have the data to back this up, what’s working for you in terms of email design, template design and then also when you send emails to mobile phones?

James: Yes, so mobile is very much be careful what you change if you’re already sending something, but also focus on the imagery. With mobile for our site the mobile traffic on the site mobile users on average visit twice as many pages as desktop users. Hypothesis or anecdotally say you know well the scroll is the factor and it’s a lot easier to click and browse with your thumb. But with mobile email the visuals on a small screen size are far more important. And if you’re not sending responsive emails or things that people can consume easily on the 50 plus devices that are probably most commonly used in your marketplace, then you’re doing your user a disservice.

The other thing that we found is while in a lot of developed markets Android and iPhone are very similar in terms of the number of devices out there, iOS and Apple is where a lot of people are purchasing. So if you really have to focus on one thing, all our evidence is that across a few different verticals and businesses focus on the Apple user because they’re the ones who are going to pay the bills.  

John: That’s probably a good assumption.

James: Right, if you spend 1000 bucks on a phone then you’ve got something, don’t you?

John: Right. If you go get a cheap Android phone well you’re probably not going to spend that much money on stuff.

James: Yeah, and Apple also gives you a pretty consistent platform whereas Android when you start to develop or if you’re trying to be cute and focus on certain devices it’s still pretty fragmented. If you have to focus on one thing with mobile make sure it’s responsive and make sure the Apple users are well looked after.

John: Another thing too which is probably worth pointing out is congruence from the start to the end of the process. So from the subject line whatever it says has to relate to the content of the email. And whatever the content of the email says has to relate to the content of the page that you’re linking to. Some emails, I’ve seen sites do this, they write all about something very specific in the email and then they link it to the homepage and leave you to figure out where there the hell to go to find whatever they were talking about in the email. By that point you just close the tab and you’re off.

James: Yeah, definitely. I think we’re pretty lucky on ecommerce sites you’ve got a pretty short funnel from the email into the page, whereas a few other sites with probably more complex sells you’ve got to keep that consistency all the way through. But consistency of your inventory you copy your text, your pricing, all those things that are essential to capture that user, because they’re making those decisions under a kind of 30 seconds window to whether they’re going to buy it not. And you’re not going to convert everyone.

The go to ecommerce is 5%, so if you’re getting that 5 out of 100 then you’re doing well, but you’ve got to have that consistency in every element all the way through the button color and all those kind of things. But people know, people need a clear cool direction on all those points from subject line through email onto a site when they’re buying and putting their credit card or whatever other details in there. But consistency in all those elements is crucial.

John: I’m curious, we’re just coming up to time soon, but someone is listening to this, now some of these issues like deliverability and going and paying somebody to do that for them, I guess that’s essentially what’s happening when you go and use Aweber or MailChimp, one of those companies, you actually assign your deliverability to them?

James: Yeah.

John: One thing I’ve seen some people do is they bring that in-house, they go and get a private server with HostGator or something like that and then drop on SendGrid or private email software. Do you recommend doing that or you’ve said before that that’s … You didn’t really like that idea.  

James: No.

John: No. Why not?

James: That’s a terrible idea. The tools out there are so cheap and accessible. Mailchimp is basically free. They make it pretty easy to set up something to make sure it gets there and also tell you what happens. And telling you what happens whether it was effective is the crucial … and I commend anyone who sends emails to existing database or tries to build a new one, but you’ve got to know what happens in what they’re effective, and even if you don’t test anything and got to encourage people to test stuff at every level, but even if you don’t test anything, paying someone to make sure they get there tells you what happen when they get there is effort’s free. You got to make sure that someone else does it.

John: So it’s like first focus on the engagement, focus on creating content that’s relevant in building that message and all those things. Once that’s done, once you’ve nailed that, and then you’re ready to scale. That’s when you start worrying about deliverability and looking into other solutions.

James: Yeah, definitely. Once you’re at that scale you know about it, you are worrying about those small hinges that swing the big doors in, and when you are at scale improving your open rates slightly might improve your engagement, slightly might improve your click through, slightly might improve your conversions slightly, but if slightly is 1% for us that’s $100,000 a day so all those things become apparent when you reach scale. But if you’re starting, sending the right email to the right person and most importantly making an offer is where you got to start.

John: This even applies to not just even people getting started, just people with smaller lists. You might have like a small business or a medium size business with a high customer value. It could be an architect or a property developer or something like that where the list is small but the people on the list spend huge amounts of money. So because you’ve got such a small list that 1% boost in open rate it’s not worth worrying about right now. The more important point is you’re getting that message on target and making that offer.

James: Yeah, definitely. Or you’ve got to be making offers consistently, but you got to be deriving value. In our business offering value to the people who are in our list is sourcing. And it’s obviously curating those things, because there’s a lot of them out there. They’re getting ahead with a lot of offers and all these different restaurants and stuff like that every day. They trust us to curate the best.

So if you take that position of offering value to your audience by curation or giving them something they can’t get anywhere else, that doesn’t need to be offers. That could be expertise. That could be insights. That could the people behind the curtain. And if you’re in professional services, that might be tax advice, that might be legal advice that they couldn’t get anywhere else. But if our needs are a bit more and if you can fairly solve the problem make the offer.  

John: Cool. Well, we’re right on time right now. Before you go I just thought it would be cool to find out just one more question which is what’s the most or maybe the most or the top 3 most counterintuitive things you’ve learned in working on sending that many emails a day?

James: Whoa, you put me on the spot, counterintuitive … Shit, John.

John: Let’s just go on. What’s the number one, just the most counterintuitive, the thing like where you’d never believe this about email?

James: Honestly I can’t think of anything.

John: Nothing? Daily email maybe.

James: Nothing, I’ve got nothing.

John: Maybe it’s the daily email, make regular offers because a lot of people when they hear that for the first time it’s just there’s no way that works.

James: Yeah, I guess the most counterintuitive thing is sending a lot of emails, actually works for many people say you got to communicate and frequently and offer a lot of value and not necessarily sell anything. We send a lot of emails and we sell a lot of stuff and we make a lot of offers. So I guess to a lot of people that’s pretty counterintuitive.

John: Absolutely. And if anyone is listening to this I am as you should think about what sort of business could they start like a massive business, not like a small niche site on something but a big business that could be built off the back of email like Daily Candy like GrabOne like any of these daily deals companies? Because I think there’s going to be more and more of this and there’s plenty of money up for grabs.

Now you do, you mentioned before you do consulting. I don’t know if you want to talk about that now but before we go I always give my guest the chance to tell people where they can learn more and get in contact if they’d like to talk to you. Is there somewhere where the listener can go to learn more about you?

James: Yeah, I’m a corporate guy and LinkedIn is to look for me. I have a small number of clients at the end of the month I’ve got space for one more. If you look for James Kemp on LinkedIn I’m there. I specialize in building automotive marketing systems for small businesses and using the expertise that we’ve built and the everyday testing of a big business like GrabOne. So if you’re looking for someone to do that then reach out and maybe we can work together.

John: Cool, okay. So I’ll grab your link from LinkedIn and put that at for the podcast. People can go there and just click over and it’ll make things easy. So thanks for coming on the show James.

James: Cheers John.

The post Episode #48 – James Kemp on Staying Out of Spam and Sending 1 Million Emails Per Day appeared first on McMethod.

Mar 18 2014



Rank #19: Episode #159 – Big Jason Henderson On Shortcut Copywriting Secrets Rides Again! The Legacy Of Scott Haines (Plus Email Dogma Holding You Back)

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BIG Jason Henderson (He’s a 7 footer) was a professional
basketball player down-under.

Sensing the limits of that career he hit the internet.

From his early days at what would become and learning about email “conversation” …

To being “Halbertized” into the fold by Bond Halbert…

Since ’96 he’s been writing and testing profit-pulling email copy.

His involvement with MECLABS has been invaluable and…

He’s out to punch some holes into email dogma (especially from the IM niche).

Recently, his close friend (and renown copywriter) Scott “Mongo” Haines passed away.

Scott had created a famous copy course that many people had urged him to update for the last five years.

Gary Halbert himself had said…

“If you could only afford to purchase and study one product, it would NOT be anything I, personally, had produced… I would recommend, above everything else, a course called ‘Shortcut Copywriting Secrets’ which was created by my friend, Scott ‘Mongo’ Haines.”

So Big Jason has picked up the torch and will be securing Scott’s legacy by keeping his work alive.

You’re going to love this week’s episode.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • The sordid truth about daily emails. Past the rhetoric and propoganda, Jason gives everyone the low-down on best practices.
  • How testing a different approach boosted EVERYTHING in the funnel! (Starting with a 27% boost from the Facebook ads)
  • What Scott’s longest running client had to say about 3 of Scott’s amazing sales letters.
  • How Scott handled the knock-down, drag-out, jump-off-a-cliff battles with several “clients who suck”. (The outcomes may surprise you).
  • Where Jason got the hook-up when getting his career in copy started. This secret rears it’s ugly head again and again – but bears repeating!


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey everybody. Welcome to another edition of the podcast. I’m David Allan and we’ve got another great guest. I’ve really been looking forward to speaking with today. He is a lord of e-mail.
He has over 20 years of experience e-mail marketing and he sent over 1 billion e-mails much of which has been tested. Jason Henderson Welcome to the show.

Big Jason: Hey David thanks for having me.

David Allan: So tell us about that a little bit. You’ve been at this since 1996 in regards to e-mail. How did you get into marketing maybe give us that superhero origin story lead us down the garden path of why you’re in marketing.

Big Jason: Sure. So I was playing professional basketball Down Under in Australia and I just had this six sense that it was going to last forever so I don’t really you know been online and looking at stuff never really did anything and there was a local college there which is high school in Australia and they had a you know computer lab and they said hey you know anytime there’s a free seat feel free. So I started jumping on and the first big thing I did was I was the about guy to exercise back then they’re known as the mining company.

OK. So basically brought in all kinds of experts to teach us about list building you know stuff like that. And as far as e-mail all I said was like hey guys it’s simple you just want people back and it’s you just have a one on one conversation. Oh I can do that. I started from there and I started working with local businesses. I stopped after a while if I only knew how big you know marketing for local businesses would become I would stuck with it.

Right. That’s that’s interesting. So you were and back then. How would you approach these people one on one or how would you go about it.

Oh yeah just people that I would meet you know normally is they had their cousin or their freind bastard nephew doing their stuff and I was like oh really.

Well you know it just gave you I totally you know X Y Z.

BI crap are there you know if you put a nephews out of work since the 1990s.

OK I you go from there into getting into. I was reading a bit of your bio there on the campaign page or something I think and it was talking about how you attended all their marketing Sherpa McLeod’s conferences and stuff like that sort of the route of education you chose in terms of the marketing.

Definitely. The first one was in 2006 in Chicago and I’ve been to every single one I just got done last week on my 12th straight sum and I’ve spoken there and I’ve taken all their certifications and email messaging optimization value proposition 12 Atlantic bridge optimization and especially the online testing part. So yeah before 2006 you know I was studying Dan Kennedy and that had been introduced to Armand Morin and Alex then dozin and they kept on referencing marketing Sherpa.

So that’s how I found out about them and I found they had the email summit. So I started going.

Cool cool. That’s interesting and 12 years straight that’s a long that’s a long stretch.

Yeah I get something out of it every single year.

Now what do you when you went from taking me like you know putting nephews out of business and you got into doing more e-mail or you know for internet marketers and so forth was that through those conferences those are more and more and connections and so forth.

Yes definitely going to events was crucial in developing relationships so yeah meeting those people and you know them get to know me helped a lot.

Yeah. That seemed to be a common thing that we hear on the show when you interview copywriters and various designations is that live events have been a big boon for them getting started and for continuing to find new clients.

You know as they say a lot of work is done in the bar.

So that brings us to today. Most of your business now is still doing email for people.

Yes. You know product launch is anything you do with email strategy email copywriting. Yeah.

Affiliate promotions all the good stuff and you have a couple several courses of your own that sells well.

Correct yeah. Of course not improving the response to any email you send about in-basket Series product launches cost them.

Now what we’d like to talk about sort of first today aside from your sort of career trajectory is you’re involved in something right now that is very special to you from a friend of yours. You know basically based on a friend of yours someone actually had the pleasure of talking with on the phone one time and that is had to do with Scott Haines what another would you talk to Scott about I wanted to buy his shortcut copywriting secrets course.

So that was the way back then years ago this would have been but few for sure.

And that’s going to be the only way to sort it out. I’d heard about it. I see people talk about it on the Warrior Forum or wherever but it seems to be the only direct way to sort of get a hold of it was to get to Scott.

So you got something very special because Scott has since passed away and you’ve sort of been very instrumental in helping him and his family and you are sort of there throughout that thing and and you’ve kind of taken the reins of Scott’s legacy. In terms of his marketing and copywriting legacy. Let’s talk about some of the things you have going on in regards to that.

Yeah. Bond Howard introduced me to Scott. Scott Scott had heard about me from other halber protege protegees throughout the years from Bon and said Markowitz who had done some work for him. So we met up in Vegas. And so for the last four years we’ve been hanging out. And then when I moved to Austin he moved as well shortly thereafter. And yeah he tragically passed away recently and his family asked me to. You know they gave me all this stuff and said hey can you please you know take the lead on this and you know make his course available so I’ve been doing is I put up a waiting

list and I’ve been doing ad break downs and some of his best ads in his original course he has a bonus called his hottest sales letters volume one. And people have been asking him to update us course or at least update is hottest sales letters for you know over five years. And he just never got around to it and so going through all his stuff I just found a winner after winner after win and is just not finding sales letters and assuming that winners like finding actual notes and details about the millions of dollars these sales lawyers have generated and so killable doubt another Howard protege.

He came up that it’s you add breakdowns of this how to sales letters to add to the second version of this course. And so that’s all I’ve been doing Guys like John Carlton David Deutsche Mark Jostein David Garfinkel Brian Kurtz. Gilbert Dowds Jimmy mark with Bon halber Kim Rogers $9 Mike Morgan and a lot others. So they’re going to get you know how to sales letters line to you know update of this course based on his notes that he left that I found. Right. And yes so it’s going to be killer.

Wow that’s awesome. Now having known Scott free for years like you did. What is it about Scott Haines that people should know if they’re not familiar with Scott and give a rundown of why he was such a close friend of yours why are you taking the lead on this.

Sure. Yeah he was known as the copywriter. After Gary Howard’s own heart he he wrote most like Gary. Gary called him his best student. Gary actually told people that you know before he even said anything that I’ve written about Kuyper anything new to study scores and which It’s interesting. We hit it off immediately and we have a love of copywriting UFC Ultimate Fighting Championship segment. Right. And and we always did that and then also we had we really connected on Gary halberds

famous line you know our clients.

So we are always sharing war stories about.

That’s good. If you can share that with our audience because we’ve talked about that quite a bit and what sort of a low you know brief backstory that’s sort of how I got involved in that. All this is true seeing Gary Hurlburt reading Gary Albert’s letter and so forth and that’s one of the first things that I sort of made aware of is that phrase all clients suck. And so maybe a few of those stories if you can.

I’ll try to share a few without revealing I know certain details but on game one arrested hit today. Yeah. No the kid has had quite a few.

Where there is he had everything in writing.

Everything was agreed upon you know X front x on the back and certain royalties and he just had a lot of clients who would just come up with the craziest excuses of why they didn’t need to pay him. One guy one guy or one client I should say said you know you know your copy was great and everything but most of these sales were were closed foam and he’s just like how did you get him on the phone. Is I would yeah your copy but you know myself. And so just take crap crap like that. But

the crazy thing and this is when I went to Tulsa to be with Scott for the few weeks he was fighting and meeting his family in his hometown friends. It really resonated with me is just how much people loved him as a person. It was funny that there was three or more like knock down drag out just piss off you know.

You know jump off a cliff encounters you had with clients he.

Was still great friends with them. He oh yeah.

Was he always even when he told people off he always what extra mile to to make it seem. Or you know actually you make it seem it is actually the truth is just like look it’s just not working out you know business wise by well I really want to leave this personally as friends. You know I I like you as a friend I love hanging out with you. I love hanging out with you again. But as business wise it’s just not working together and I’d rather and things now versus you know never speaking again. And the crazy thing is

the three worst blow ups he’s had with clients he still remained great friends and they still say great things about him today.

Wow. That’s that’s testament to the person Scott was obviously that he was able to separate those things and maintain those relationships outside of the business aspect which is hard to do sometimes.

One of the people this is really interesting.

So I reached out. I was able to take control of his list and his customer list and other things so I was reaching out to them saying hey you know I just want to let you know that Scott passed away and I’m trying to continue his legacy and all that. And one person actually got a hold of me was his longest running client. And he just raved and raved about Sky’s a person about how you know how fond memories of hanging out with him and everything and he told me the craziest thing because like I said I’d found some really good sales letters and some amazing stats of what they had done. He had told me that

he started working with Scott in about 2000 2001.

Upon the recommendation of Gary because Gary didn’t have time and he said that he had taken at least three possibly more of Scott sales letters and put them on line.

And this was after doing millions initially with Scott and he put them online. And there’s he can’t find he get paid copywriters enough today like literally today they’re online he can’t find anyone to beat Scott’s controls.

Wow. At least three of them. So I was like I can believe what I know.

That’s awesome. That is a great if I remember correctly Scott wrote at least a version or perhaps the final version.

Of the Trump University. Yes sales letter right which is controversial.

Yeah actually now that’s very interesting.

It sounds like I have heard of a lot of people sort of talk you know in different videos different products you know about how good of a guy he was and it seems to bear out not only just in copyright in school and also in his personal life. So what should people know about you know if they’re going to get involved with shortcut copywriting secrets and you know get on the list and we’ll give all those links and stuff from the show notes. We’ll get that information. What are things that they should know about the way Scott wrote copy and what you’ve learned perhaps Jason yourself from being friends with Scott just conversational one to one copy.

You know Bon’s says that Scott wrote more like his dad than anybody else. And it’s true. It’s been amazing doing these ad breakdowns and everybody agrees that yeah it’s very personal one to one very simple language. And that’s the big problem I see today with copying especially e-mail copies everybody’s is looking for the you know the latest persuasion trigger and all the fancy you know persuasion tactic to increase copy. And I just found out you know simple

you know fourth grade reading level is the way to go.

Yes it’s like you’re talking to everybody.

Yep exactly. That’s what Scott was all about so I learned a lot about that. I still studied his letters every day.

Wow. Awesome. So that’s going to be a whole new package you’re putting together that people should be able to get their hands on. Yep. So maybe tell us a bit more about your about you and about your e-mailing history. I know you have this long history and all these tested emails and this a B tests but you’ve run for people you know that are out there that either are getting into email marketing. We have a lot of freelancers or they’re in our Chua’s I established in their freelance career and they want to improve their email. What are some of the you know top ways that people seem to go wrong. Obviously the conversational thing is as massive. What are some of the other ways.

Sure. So the marketing super mech Labs was huge for me because what I found was that in the eye and circle there was a lot of email dogma. And I was fortunate enough that I had gotten started with really no one teaching me about email other than you know about dot com formerly the mining company saying you know hey you know it’s like having a one on one conversation. Right. So I didn’t have to go through you know starting with the Course saying you know don’t use images or don’t do this and don’t do that you can’t do this and go to the

marketing Sherpa email summit and studying wigwag labs really emphasized that that you know by a lot of the I am circle has a lot of dogma that’s just not true. So I would caution people about listening to what they hear you know online about you know can’t do this can’t do that and stick the one on one conversation. It’s been huge for me. And part of that is having a personality which of course can include images. Right. And as far as the testing goes this is a I’ve probably spoken to over 40 people

who don’t believe that you can scientifically or accurately splits us to email which is total B.S. by the way.

But I think they’re missing the point because if you really study splitters you realize that when you split test the main goal is not to get aleft or see what works better. It’s to learn about your customer. And that’s been huge because you know there’s the whole curve versus stick you know what’s going to work better.

Telling them you know how amazing their life’s going to be blah blah blah or telling them you know what your product or service is going to save them from and a good example of that is probably about a year ago a company came to me and they managed PPC for small two small businesses pay per click ads. Facebook called all that stuff and they had automated wegen are Funland. OK look you know we have a conversion group that you know test and optimize our clients campaigns blank pages and emails and all that. But for our

own stuff we can’t seem to get a lift. And we know you’re on the Macleods now thinks we want to see what you can do. OK. So I went and I analyzed everything. And the first thing that came to me was that it was all about you know make X amount of money more with us. You know you’re going to make a lot more money with us. I was like I’m like zero and just based on my research of their potential client and the existing customers was that is that really what’s going to push them over the edge or is it you know what are they missing out on or

what’s what’s fear or frustration is happening without you know this. My clients services voice. So I sit up on the Facebook add to tests you know what I came up with is how much do you think your average client that you get has been wasting how much they’ve been losing by not using you.

They gave me the figure an accurate figure or you know best guests. And so we tested that and there was nothing about making you know X more it was all about you’re losing X per month.

And right away 27 percent increase from the Facebook ads.

And I said you’re going to I want you to apply that now to the landing page to the e-mails. I want to actually change the Web and our So then change everything and everything increased across the board.

Wow big big difference.

And another key thing was just another awesome benefit of my classes. Again you you peel away a lot of dogma is on testing is I gave them on their Facebook that I give them a new headline new copy new call to action and when they’re ready to start testing like OK we’re going to test the headline now. Wait wait what do you mean you test the headline and just the headline the cottonseed I honor no where just gets us the headline because we want to make sure what changes what I said no.

First of all that makes no sense you’re going to change a new headline it’s going to be incongruent with the copy and the CTA too. Who cares what works. You guys can’t get a lift. So if we test everything and it increases you know your bottom line by 27 percent who cares.

You can go back and test again if you want to test little things. But when you really need a lift Who cares what actually does that’s what McCloud’s calls a radical redesign. Right. So you don’t have a completely different direction kind of thing. Yeah. So you don’t have to.

I will mention a name but a huge company. They’re revered around the world for their marketing prowess. And I’ve worked with them same thing on the landing pages. Oh no we can’t. We can only test the headline and there had been testing already by themselves for a year and they’re testing little things here and there you know point five percent increase 1 percent increase 2 percent increase. And I’m just I was just like blown away that they’re stuck in dogma that they can’t test more than one thing at a time.

Yeah I think that’s what you know. That’s what people seem to be. And you’re dead right on this. Is this sort of they’ve taken what’s been said and maybe some of those older copyrighting books or people coming up you know about testing or going way back to like Claude Hopkins and so forth.

And they seem to be very very narrowly applying it in a sort of like like you said a dogmatic fashion where it’s like it’s only can be done this way. And when you’re looking for a bigger homerun and bigger left going in completely direction new direction you can’t just do that with the headline per se. So that’s a very important point I think for people understand is you’re talking about trying something completely new with a whole new premise kind of thing. So maybe you know when it comes to you know I learned to e-mail primarily from Mac fury and I started reading e-mails. You know he was a guy who was teaching at the time I started to learn some of the stuff.

You know he’s got a very distinctive style and you know he was big on sending he you know saying he would send as many e-mails as humanly possible for up to him. He wasn’t lazy you know and so forth. Let me speak to some of the frequency issues as he encountered these discussions with people all the time and I’ve sort of have my own opinions of course but as someone who’s been in the game as long as you have let me talk about some of the frequency related issues to e-mails and what really matters clicks open sales with you know what the deal is.

Sure. Yeah. Coincidentally Scott wrote a couple of solos for Matt that did really well.

Now one of them was his e-mail caught writing workshop with a h know products of that got me.

That’s going to be included in the volume two of his Hustler’s. Cool awesome awesome.

Yeah so fitting deal has been around forever. The first person that I’ve actually seen evidence was a former I think is that a Navy pilot is actually through Scott because one of the sells letters in like early 2000 2001 was for internet marketing seminar recordings for Gary halber.

And there is a guy there that was big on daily. So I’ve actually had to help clients that have followed sending daily systems like step by step find how to do daily emails and it’s destroyed their business. So a lot of it depends on your market. Who you are your own authority. I see a lot of people teaching stuff that applies to them because they have a built in authority like me personally. It’s not that I don’t teach anything that I do but most of it is what I do

for my clients because I know that people get on my list specifically because oh yeah you got to get on Jason’s list he’s the Lord of email marketing blah blah blah. So I could pretty much say all kinds of crap. You know one word e-mails and people would buy or respond or whatever. Right. So you have to take that into consideration. And the thing you don’t hear when people say Oh I say I changed daily I made more money it is you really don’t cheer in the set up of OK.

So I was e-mailing X and I did a test. It was just I switched to daily. So it perfectly all cases. Were there any sort of details. It’s not that they started sending Galey is that it’s that they said send more frequently. Right. So in my opinion in the majority not all cases but majority cases. It’s not that they started saying daily that they start sending more Fraknoi. So I think that’s a pretty good bet that most people don’t send emails frequently enough.

Now maybe if people are interested in getting in volved with Scott Haines project and continuing Scott’s legacy and updating his course when people get a whole lot of information they can just go to a short.

Copywriting secrets dot com.

OK. Awesome.

And I actually get introduced to bonce. I believe it was 2009. I was doing a project with Tony Flores a make peace Progeria also forgot to mention clean make pieces and break down the sky in a nice way. Tony invited me to the operating system teachers mastermind our get together in San Francisco with John Carleton and bond and Kevin halber were guests there. And the first topic of the day was email and so John Carlson spurred Ascanius So I talked

about for a half an hour to start off the mastermind. Awesome. Yeah that’s how I got to this DUBON and he really loved the fact that I was more evidence based on what works best. And so yeah he started introduce me to Samarth with Caleb and then Scott and I became known as the go to you know source for Howard protegees which is a good group to be associated with.

So people want to get in touch with you directly because I know you have mentioned before you have products and stuff like that can help with peoples email.

How do they get in touch with you personal.

They can go to email response Warrier dot com and thats your email response product. Yes. How do I Creusa respond to any email you sent regardless of whether its daily or every other day or on a responder.

Also Man Well thanks for coming on the show.

Its been a real pleasure having you on youve given some great knowledge semantics for having me.

Everybody else of course will be back next week with another exciting guest hopefully half as entertaining and knowledgeable as Jason

The post Episode #159 – Big Jason Henderson On Shortcut Copywriting Secrets Rides Again! The Legacy Of Scott Haines (Plus Email Dogma Holding You Back) appeared first on McMethod.

May 16 2017



Rank #20: Episode #160 – Mike Abramov On What The Best Clients Need. Become A Full-Service Copywriter And Write Your Own Ticket.

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Mike laid in his bed with a horrible stomach flu surfing the ‘net.

His passion for hoops and NBA dreams found him pouring over basketball products.

Several years later he sent in a glowing testimonial.

At 16 years old he never thought that would set him on a career path.

The owner of that product company like Mike’s passion and needed people to champion his brand.
Mike’s success in customer service led to the owner writing him a game-changing email…

“Want to make more money?”

Mike wrote content and then sales and upsell pages and then whole funnels as time went by.

The owner turning him onto some classic texts in direct-response.

Along with on-the-job trial and error, Mike learned the game.

Now after 6 years he’s left that first fruitful gig and is on to other pastures.

If you’re new (or even an old hand at this stuff) then there’s a lot from Mike’s journey you can take and apply to your own.

His skill-set are what modern DR companies look for.

Start now!

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • One mistake copywriters make that leaves them deadly short on what clients look for.
  • The advice an A-list copywriter gave Mike that sums up why most copy doesn’t resonate.
  • How to avoid the horrible “tiptoe” mistake most businesses make with their weak copy.
  • Stick to these and you can’t go wrong when building up your complimentary copy skills.
  • The “can’t lose” method most businesses leave completely out. (This is where all the money is!).


Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey, everybody we’re back with another edition of the podcast. I’m David Allan and we got a really interesting guest here today that was recommended to me by another guest Justin Goff we had on the show – by the time this is live you’ll have heard Justin’s episode. His name is Mike Abramov and I hope I pronounced that correctly and he is a digital marketer copywriter – in direct response. We’re going to find out everything about him in the next little while here as he starts by detailing his sort of superhero origin story. Mike welcome to the show.

Mike Ambramov: I appreciate you having me on.

David Allan: It’s awesome to have you on. And you were recommended Like I said by Justin and Justin’s a good guy. So he knows what’s what. So maybe start because I know very little about you other than what Justin told me on and off the air. So maybe give me sort of the rundown of where you were who you were and how you ascended to where you’re at now.

Yes I mean growing up I was obsessed with basketball. I thought I going to the NBA as every tall athlete thinks they are. I myself included actually. So I actually came across a sales page surf the web one night looking at basketball training and drills and tips and that kind of stuff like that and I ended up buying it. I sent over a testimonial a couple of years later to the actions of the owner and he was really impressed. Testimonials like you know what I need great dedicated guys like you. Would you mind helping me out with customer service and you pay me and all that. I was like I was 16 at the time. So I was like Yeah let’s let’s do it. Which is a risky thing for him to do but I’m glad he did.

So over the next 12 months I kind of answered e-mails or whatever I needed to do and he kept on giving me more and more responsibility to the point where when I was 18 he asked me he said mean enough. He literally just said do you want to make more money questionmark. I’m 18 at time. The answer is yes. All cash or exclamation points. And Rainer he asked if I could write some content emails about basketball OK I did just that. From there the relationship kind of flourished. I started doing a lot a lot more stuff in terms of actual copywriting I mean I edited some upswell page Aspern itself pages and then writing all those out. And that’s how kind of I came

to be where I am today.

So that’s basically you know you lucked into in a way this guy who happened to be pretty but it sounds like a pretty advanced marketer on his own accord. Yes. OK. So I was pretty lucky. Are you excited by that product.

Oh 100 percent I it’s actually really interesting because the only reason why I saw the product was because I had the stomach flu so. Oh wow. So the only thing I did that days instead of going to school I google stuff about basketball. So if I hadn’t had the stomach flu I would have never got into this.

It’s weird how it works like that. It’s crazy. We were talking off the air and people have heard this story probably 10 times on this podcast and so I want to go into it but you know that’s sort of how I learned about Gary Holbert and getting into it with a product similarly.

And that’s it’s just weird how one little thing you know you may order something or buy something it just leads down this rabbit hole.

Yeah and it’s I’m just I’m thankful for that. It’s definitely an awesome lifestyle.

So once you started you know this guy started upping your responsibility and your pay what sort of things did he have specific things that he wanted you to read to go through courses you recommended books. I mean he he tried to educate you internally or did you we’re looking outside for things it little bit of both.

I was very fortunate because he was a fairly decent guy at the time so he gets it down at me and say hey go line by line say hey I don’t like this I like this change this. This could be better. And this is why. But the majority of education which is through trial and error I did read. I mean like you have John staples right. I read everything Dan Kennedy book out there. I read breakthrough advertising a bunch of ugly stuff. Robert Collier all of them even help stuff. But the majority of my education was through trial and error. Just kind of writing something sending to him sending it to him and then he would send it back all marked up which is great for me. And that’s how I got to start it.

So he was like a copy chief basically nails all of the time. That’s awesome. How long did you stay with that company. Six years. OK. From 18 to 24 and how old are you now. No I was from 16 16 to 20 to 16 to 20. I’m 22 now. OK. So you just basically just recently left. Yeah. OK. OK. That probably goes right into what Justin had to say about you finding another job with somebody else.

Yeah. I reached out to Justin and he connected me with a couple of people that he knew and all sorts initialisms said you know this guy knows what he’s doing and that’s how we kind of got connected and I’ve been working for a couple of people since that.

Ok cool. It’s good to have a connection. I don’t think we can overstate that on the show whether it’s going to live events or reaching out to your network and like you do with justin. That’s a those are powerful things.

Get reading in front of proper clients deafening I got an every single one of my clients or sort of gigs through referrals. Of course every single one.

So when you left this company did. I mean what was the owner was he sad or did he like to go get it. You know what was there.

We had a little bit of a falling out in terms of it was happening to me in terms of our agreement we couldn’t just see eye to eye on certain things and it was time to part ways. There’s no bad blood on either end so it didn’t. It wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be.

Right now at that point were you like confident that you could take the skills that you learned and parlay that into something new. Or was there some trepidation because that was your first job.

I was a little bit hesitant at first. I took it in kind of a week to kind of grief about it but it just sort of understand what had happened in my office and all of that. And I reached out to Justin. He was really helpful in terms of calming me down and letting me know that these things do happen and I am I’m very grateful for that because I think it really skyrocketed everything else. And when did you first meet Justin. I met Justin actually he was a good friend of the past owner.

Very interesting.

It’s funny how things work out sometimes when somebody looks super good friends with another guy you’re having a little acrimony with I referred you to somebody else. So yeah definitely.

So maybe for people that are are young like you are maybe take us through you know maybe some of the important ways maybe you wish you’d educated yourself you know aside from what you actually did and maybe some of the lessons you learned along the way of being you know quite a young person that would say to get sort of get into things and get moving so fast.

Yeah I mean I think the biggest thing that’s set me apart in Justin’s eyes was I think most copywriters just focus on the actual writing of copy which is extremely important but I think that kind of puts you in a box and what I mean by that is it’s important to learn about Vanos and customer acquisition and everything because when you can approach a company or a client with that full package and that’s full understanding of not only can I write copy but I also can take the customer from where are you from where he is taking to where you want him to be. That’s super important. So that’s what I wish I learned a little bit earlier.

So it sort serve the big picture from start to finish.

Yeah. Because I mean there are plenty of copywriters that you can just give them a product and say hey here’s the market right. Sales page and a ton of them can do it. If you ask them for specific ups sells down sells things that work in terms of pitching them on something else in the future continuation promise continuity. A lot of them are stuff right. And that’s what I think sets apart a lot of copperheads.

Yeah I’m just Justin and Justin’s episode. He talked a lot about that he talked about having that complete package as a copywriter to sell yourself because he said that a lot of direct response companies are looking for people and sort of that you know that middle range I guess they had low end copywriters who charge a couple of grand for things they can’t afford yet perhaps the people that are seen.

So they’re looking for those people that sweet spots are in the middle sort of over $10000 dollars. You know how those extra skills you know to bring to the table and maybe take charge of the marketing departments. Direct Response companies.

Yeah I mean I think a lot of people can charge you know 10 k for a full fundable when you have everything in place to make sure that you’re not just creating a one time purchase but you increase the LTV. You can easily spike your prices and it’s warranted. People are OK with that because they know that they’ll make more money on the back end.

Now for people who didn’t have the you know the luck if you will of stumbling into a job with somebody who was already advanced at marketing what would you recommend for people to try to learn some of these extra things. I know some of the things I’ve sort of done to get up to speed on different response you know products and so forth I’ve purchased but maybe from your point of view you know what things could you recommend to people who are looking to add those extra skills to maybe their copy.

Yeah I mean I think it boils down to reading as much as you can and I say that with with the caveat I get a lot of people tend to just buy 30 different books and really go through each one and then they don’t really learn anything at the end of the day. I would choose three to four books and reread them over and over and over again which sounds really daunting and annoying but I think it’s really a point to really cement some of the concepts inside and that’s what I did. I mean I read everything that Dan Kennedy has ever put out multiple times. And I think that’s what kind of helped me because I could learn it and then I could implement it in actual business.

Right. And he sort of covers all those things from the customer acquisition all the way through and back and that’s everything.

Even like time management stuff which I think is important.

Is there other. Is there any particular books of bands that you find particularly helpful that spring to mind.

Yeah I mean the ultimate marketing plan the ultimate sales letter and then all its entire Noby catalog of books was really good. I really also enjoyed all of Joe Sugarmann stuff especially the ad copywriting handbook that was good and I think what else and I really enjoyed Schwab’s how to write a good advertising write better shrub. Those are those are kind of I find myself going back to those books more and more just kind of set the refresh.

Now when you were part of this original company sort of worked for had he given you those books or had you just gone out into the interweb webs and search those out.

He basically told me read X Y and Z. When you’re done let me know and then I’ll give you more books to read.

OK. So he was very proactive in educating him very very which is which was great for me.

And again I can’t stress how lucky I was. I have doubt that.

It’s different nowadays I guess because even six years ago it was a different world.

Yeah. I mean I was like but I remember I remember my first day on the Internet you know I played at a bookstore get on the internet for the first time like a dollar an hour or two hours. And that was not long ago.

You know so as it’s interesting now that I mean there’s a lot of stuff at people’s fingertips now but there’s also something a lot of overwhelm and some of the questions I get from people who are getting into copywriting or who are sort of in that first couple of years they want to know aside from you know maybe some of the more modern things too that people are put out in the last five or eight years or so that are more because funnel became such a buzzword and so forth. You know what sort of things you recommend on that front. Is there products you’ve indulged in that have helped you.

I have it. One thing that I’ve tried my best to do is kind of go back to some of the contemporary stuff. I never really got into that in the newer stuff because I feel like there are certain principles that will never go away and direct marketing right. I think it’s it’s as soon as we start deviating from that and we want the new new thing things start to kind of crumble. Right. So I’ve tried my best to stick to the proven guys who have done this in the 50s 60s and even before that.

Right. Not so good. That’s good advice I think because it’s easy to get caught up in that sort of shiny object.

Yeah. I mean it’s so easy to just read a blog and just go like oh ok cool I know what I’m going to do to make a million next week.

We want to get well you may want to give me the address that I blog.

Yeah I will. I wish that’s how it works and unfortunately there’s a lot of testing that goes into these things and at least for me I think that’s that’s one of the biggest problems that I see when other people approach me is send me their stuff and I take a look and say OK what are the what does the data say and they go data and I’m like well let’s let’s work on that first.

Yeah. I mean it’s been my experience.

And then you can speak to your experience is that they’re just testing it seems to be a very time honored direct response you know thing. Part of the direct response world. It doesn’t seem like a lot of people that I’ve come across are really unless you’re a super high end marketer or you know small like a Gora’s I’m like You’re not people aren’t testing anywhere near what you think they would be.

Yeah and I think it stems from a I don’t want to say a lack of understanding how to test really I think we all know the level that we can split test things. I think they just don’t know how they could. And I think that’s the biggest problem there are plenty of softwares out there like I mean VW so will I use foot testing for fairly cheap price. I know certain email service providers depending on what you’re using you can send out different subject lines right things that way. I think if more people did that they’d see much bigger not only responsive mortars.

Yeah because could really I mean and this is probably you know for people listening this taking the time to listen to something like this that we may be beating a dead horse but I think it bears repeating. You know often enough is that you’re leaving a lot of money on the table if you don’t continue to try to beat what’s going on right now. I mean that’s the biggest companies like you know are gorra and Rodale Philips in the past and so they were like constantly trying to beat themselves.

Yeah. And then one of my biggest clients I mean I’ve rewritten their sales page maybe four times and it’s not because I didn’t do well. I beat their control it’s just once I get data back. Right. It’s always weird for me to go back in and continue kind of fine tuning thing.

So what sort of things have you seen figure to give an example for somebody you know maybe they’re not involved that or they don’t work for somebody you don’t have any clients that are that are that aggressive. How should they broach that subject and what sort of avenue should they go down in terms of what they do wrong with their finals or what they do wrong and then maybe how should you like let’s say you know there’s been people I’ve worked for where I didn’t have control the thing.

You know I just wrote sales played or I wrote up in a squeeze page where I wrote certain aspects but I didn’t have any control of the funnel like from start to finish. And that obviously makes it harder because is like a congruity so often and I always try to pitch people more make them all one thing.

But for you you know how would you approach people that maybe you know the client to explain to them some of the stuff about how this all needs to be sort of one message and also the mistakes that people are making in their finals that are like either easily correctable or just blatant.

But I think if you have a proven track record it’s very easy to show them and say hey let me do this. If you don’t for a lot people are starting out I think doing that one up there with that one sales page without grants. If the funnel is important to show them that you have the skills right and then once you do that first project on the second and third project desk and you can approach them and say hey I could easily do this but I want the company to swing for the fences right. I want to take care of this entire funnel from start to finish. And once you have that trust built in it’s very easy to kind of let them have let let them give you the freedom to do that. Yeah. As far as what people do wrong with their finals. Some of the big

stuff is probably just a lot of times I see people being scared to sell and I don’t know if that’s a problem with they feel manipulative or they don’t like the way it feels which is completely fine. But to be specific I mean certain people don’t have even follow up sequences WESH which is nuts to me. And when they do they don’t ask for the sale. They like kind of tiptoe around it. Right. A general audience if they’re not specific they’re not granular they’re not talking to one person. They’re not saying hey I could get this right. And one of the most and I mean one of the most revolutionary things that I’ve learned which seems super kind

of simple is David Deutsch. He and I spoke for a while and he basically said you know it’s supposed to be like bar talk. Right. You wouldn’t approach this person at a bar and say the exact same thing that you’re saying why would you write it. Tranq and that’s something that blew my mind. And it seems so simple but I haven’t I wasn’t writing in such a conversational tone. So I think it starts with them being scared to sell. And then when they do sell they sell like a used car salesman. So I think it’s finding that medium is kind of that sweet spot is that what. Other stuff is like. There’s no list segmentation in a lot of clients that I work with some reason which is huge because if you’re selling the same thing to people who who

might not want it here a lot of money on the table. And then again just the testing stuff I think that’s super important and I know it sounds like a beating a dead horse but it’s something that’s really really important.

So when you go let’s say you get a new I know you do have a couple clients now you’re working for but let’s say you get a new client when you’re providing the package whatever they get you to do. Are you providing a number of headlines and stuff to test or you or what sort of things would you give them for maybe people that are new to copy. They’re not sure what you know how much to give to people or how much you know they should be giving for their flyers fees or whatever.

You know just so like when I write little packages for clients I definitely try to give them two or three subject lines to test out if they have that capability. A lot of times before I even start writing I ask for their old stuff to kind of look at and see what’s working and what’s not for what they have. And then from there I craft something that I think with would do well for them. So I’m I’m always trying to give them things to test whether it be a subject line or a headline moving things around etc. and that goes for the same for sales pages and squeeze pages and stuff like that.

Very nice print. Are there any things that perhaps you know in your relatively short career I guess are the things that struck you as counterintuitive where you thought.

Well I didn’t think it worked that way or I would have never figured that out. Someone told me or whatever it was like just it. I’ll give you an example just in. And this seems probably because a lot of people too. But it bears repeating I think as he said that you know the easiest thing to sell somebody once they’ve bought something is more of the same. Yeah I’m going to say actually.

And that’s it seems counterintuitive because you think they just but let’s say you just bought a copywriting course let’s say. Why would you want another copyrighted chords and Nancy’s great coverage because you like to think I’ve got that handle I just bought one but it doesn’t work that way.

Yeah and I think that kind of kind of connects with the previous question you asked me to as well as the what they do wrong with their final is once you have a customer or continue giving them more stuff their customer for a reason.

Right so I think that’s the number one thing is getting the back and this has been a really great conversation by a lot of fun to talk to and you’ve got a lot of knowledge for being so it’s meaning.

But I mean you obviously even got into this at the right time in your life for early you know and seems like you’re making the most of it.

I mean I appreciate you having me on. Seriously it’s been it’s been awesome.

If people are looking to get in touch with you personally where can they find you and how do we get in touch.

Sure there’s a couple of ways. Feel free to add me on Facebook. And look let’s chat. It’s under Mike Abramoff and my web site Mike Abhimaan dot com super original. I know those are really the best places to contact me then there should be a contact form on my web site as well as your mother what can you hit me up on Facebook. Awesome awesome.

It’s been a real pleasure. I want to thank you for taking the time to come on the show and help educate our audience because it’s been and it’s been a lot of fun you for everybody else will be back again with another exciting guest hopefully half as funny and insightful as make it Marv

The post Episode #160 – Mike Abramov On What The Best Clients Need. Become A Full-Service Copywriter And Write Your Own Ticket. appeared first on McMethod.

May 23 2017