Cover image of The McMethod Email Marketing Podcast

The McMethod Email Marketing Podcast

By John McIntyre, The Autoresponder Guy

Popular episodes

All episodes

The best episodes ranked using user listens.

Podcast cover

Episode #50 – Brendan Dubbels on Ninja Tricks to Skip the Waiting List and Get Your Emails Prioritized

Do you use Gmail? News flash: Your prospects do. That means that your emails might be getting BURIED in the Gmail “Promotions” tab. Or worse – …not delivered at all. That’s helluva problem. It’s the difference between selling like hotcakes in your prospect’s Inbox, next to “hey honey” from Mom – …or getting tossed in with the Viagra Spam. Where do you stand? (HINT: in this episode, you’ll learn how to quickly check.) Fortunately, there are a few tiny “smoke signals” you can bake into your autoresponder. Do these, and your emails get ushered past the velvet rope… …and waltz STRAIGHT into the profit club. So what are these tweaks? And how can you take advantage? Meet Brendan Dubbels. Brendan is the Post Master at Ontraport. The guy gets PAID to deliver emails. (And keep marketers like you profitable). In this episode, Brendan shows you how to get your emails prioritized. That means more CA$H. From emails you’re already sending. Curious what % of your emails actually get seen? Want to skip to the front of the line? Would you like to impress clients and partners with high-impact email marketing advice? Then listen carefully to this episode. Welcome to the VIP club. In this episode, you’ll discover: how to guarantee prospects see your emails why IPs and the technical stuff is becoming less important…and the exciting trend on the horizon a benchmark open rate for your emails (how do you measure up?) Google’s little-known Gmail algorithm, public online when unsubscribes are a GOOD thing the 30-second trick that turns your autoresponder into a profit machine (do this today) 2 scary metrics that Gmail tracks when you read your emails how to protect against DANGER to your identity (this is a must if your biz is growing) how to skip right past the Promotions tab why you don’t need to be clever in your email subject lines Mentioned: Gmail’s public algorithm Quora DMARC MailChimp Ontraport (formerly Office Autopilot) Brendan’s free offer to Email Marketing Podcast listeners: Get a free 30-min consultation with Brendan on your email deliverability as a listener of the podcast! Email him at brendan@officeautopilot.com Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Raw transcript: Download PDF transcript here. John: It’s John McIntyre, the Autoresponder Guy. I’m here Brendan Dubbels, a deliverability expert, I think the deliverability man at Ontraport, an Office Order Pilot. He’s in charge of making sure customers get their emails, as far as they get their emails into their customers inboxes. I actually saw him on Quora. I was clicking around on Quora, which is a great site, by the way, quora.com. People ask these crazy- these very intellectual questions. It’s like Yahoo! Answers for smart people, and there’s some great stuff on there where it’s about, “Does God exist?” Or the most interesting things you’ll learn from splits tests and some really intelligent responses. Anyway, that was how I found Brenda. He posted on someone’s- I think there was a thread on Quora about how to get your emails read, “What’s the latest stuff that’s going on that’s really helping people at in getting their emails read?” Then Brendan jumped in there and had a great response so I thought I’d send him an email and get him on the show. That’s what we’re doing today. Brendan, how are you going today? Brendan: Doing great, John. Thanks for having me. John: Good to have you on the show, mate. Before we get into the deliverability stuff- I’ve given the listeners a bit of a background on who you are and what you do, but fill in a few of the gaps and tell people who you were. Brendan: Yeah, so I’ve been working with Office Auto Pilot and Ontraport as Postmaster now for about five years. I’ve worked with a ton of the top internet marketers in the world. Having sent so many emails for so many marketers, I’ve really come to see a lot and gained a lot of information that a lot of people just don’t have access to, especially considering that we send for everything from the hardcore internet marketers to mom and pop working on the shops. Just giving me some really unique insight and I’m able to share it. John: Okay, cool. You said postmaster. That’s your title at Ontraport? Brendan: That’s my title at Ontraport, yeah. John: That sounds pretty cool. Brendan: It’s pretty all-encompassing so not everyone’s happy to hear from me. We do try to get our customer’s email in the inbox but unfortunately sometimes, we have to have to be strict with our customers as well and make sure they’re not getting complaints and bounces. John: What specifically are you doing? You’re the guy who’s in charge of making sure that emails get to the inbox and get opened, right? Brendan: Exactly. Another term that some people use is compliance or abuse at other companies. We’re trying to move away from that simply  because we think your email service provider should be your partner and not sort of a big brother, as it were. John: Okay. I’m curious, do you have to reprimand many customers because they’re getting too aggressive and getting too many complaints? Brendan: I would say that we probably warn about two customers a week, so really not that many in the grand schemes of things. Most of the time, it’s a really case of people just not knowing. You don’t know what you don’t know. With a quick message and some follow up education, we generally never see repeat issues, which is pretty awesome. John: Obviously, the emails go through a few of your demands so your job, as I suppose, is to maintain the reputation of Ontraport’s demands with the various ESP’s so that you don’t get blacklisted so then all your customers … This is getting pretty technical. I just want to be technical. I want to try to fully understand  this stuff. The idea is if someone sends too much spam or too many emails that get complaints from your domain or through your service, that can ruin it for your other people so your job is to make sure that doesn’t happen, that the domain stay in good standing, right? Brendan: Exactly. That way, anyone who’s sending mail can be A, that not only is their mail going to reach their servers but for example, a friend of theirs signs up, that their behavior isn’t going to affect their buddy who signs up as well. It’s definitely a full-time job and I’m really lucky to have a fellow associate who does deliver here. His name is Brad. Things are good. John: Okay. How do we do this? That’s what I wanted to get you on for, is to talk about how you- because it’s really in your best interest and it’s in the best interest of your customers, of the clients who are sending the actual messages that you need to get the emails to your inbox, you need to get them read, opened. I know you need to get them engaged with so click on Reply to, that kind of thing. This is all going to drive that send score or the scorer and say, “the domain’s up or Ontraport’s demands so that Ontraport looks better and everyone’s happy.” That’s how it works, right? Am I …? Brendan: Yeah, that’s pretty accurate and it’s been a really interesting trend over the past, I would say three years or so, as engagement is becoming more and more important and peer reputation is becoming less and less important. We can clearly see this because all of our IP’s with Ontraport are in the mid-90’s range, so that’s pretty solid. Higher than most ESP’s, in fact. John: Okay. Brendan: What’s strange is that we’ve got all of these people using the same IP’s, yet some people will only get 50 to 60% inbox rate, while we have others regularly pegging 100%. We’re saying that engagement and less hygiene by the individual marketers really was becoming king and IP reputation is becoming less important. John: You just said something very interesting. You’re saying some people, because their engagement score is low, they only get 5 or 6 out of every 10 emails into an inbox? Brendan: Yeah, and to be honest, that’s not even worst case scenario. I’ve had people who have gotten down to 15 or 20% simply because they just send so much cold mail. They get so used to an open rate that’s slowly declining that they think nothing is wrong and it’s just business as usual. For me at least, one of my favorite things about my job is to be able to contact them and work with them and say, “Hey,  you’re messing up. Let’s fix this,” and seeing them light up when their inbox rates go back up to in between 80 and 100% and over the rates double or they triple. It’s a really, really cool thing. John: I’m curious, when you’re getting 50, 60% off of an inbox rate, what sort of open rates it may sound like? Brendan: To be honest, it really, really depends with what business you’re in, how frequently you mail and how well you set your expectations. I would say someone who gets 50 to 60% inbox rates on average probably be getting about a 5% open rate granted, like I said, that is a gross generalization simply because it varies so much by your target audience and your frequency of mailing. John: Let’s talk about engagement then because this sounds really key. It’s not IP’s or just to clear something out. I’m speaking to a friend recently. We had lunch here in Thailand and he said it started around a podcast, he listened to a few episodes. Then he asked me, he gave me this idea to go and get some more interesting people on the show. I’ve been doing lots of copyrighting guys marketing guys but it would be good to hear from someone like you on the deliverability side. He mentioned stuff that I have just no idea what’s going on and how it works, which is not just the IP address but the email header. I think he’s got the SPF records or the technical details. Do they affect the deliverability? Brendan: They definitely, definitely do. The nice thing though is if you’re with a professional email service provider like Ontraport or any of our competitors, that’s going to be handled for you. The truth of the matter is, is you don’t have that infrastructure in place, your mail just simply isn’t going to get delivered at a rate that makes sense. There’s a ton of great resources out there for how you can create an SPF record, which stands for Sender Policy Framework, or a DKIM record as well, which is also equally important if you’re looking to do some self-hosted email. The one other thing I would suggest if you are looking to go the self-hosted route, DMARC is also very, very important. It’s one of the newest authentication methods they’ve created. The short version basically, it makes it so that you know if someone is trying to impersonate you via email. If you have high brand value and you think someone may benefit from impersonating you via email, DMARC is key, D-M-A-R-C. John: Interesting. Are you doing DMARC with the offshore part of stuff on Ontraport? Brendan: Yeah, we are. We have DMARC authenticated on all of our outgoing mail simply because we don’t want anyone trying to trick our customers. John: This is very interesting though. IP address, that technical stuff, sounds like it’s gradually becoming less important and you talked about engagement. What is engagement specifically? Brendan: Engagement is just the monitoring of the touch points that your customers have with your emails. If you think back to how emails evolved over the years, when it started, it was completely unregulated. As time progressed, people started using it for marketing, which isn’t it’s original intention. Originally, it’s, “Holy crap, we can send information from here to Washington in three seconds.” That blew people’s mind. It was one to one communication. Then marketers came along and they’re like, “Wow, we could make a killing with this stuff.” Then, email marketing was born. It made sense. It was much less expensive to communicate with our prospects and our customers. However, some people went down the route of spamming and ruined it for everyone. Then, ESP has noticed that the people who receive spam frequently would just shut down their accounts and move to another provider, which was a major bummer. They realized they had to start regulating what was going on. IP reputation worked for a while but it became very apparent that a spammer could get an IP, do a broadcast to five million spammed addressed and then just buy a new IP and then mail from there. IP reputation didn’t cover it all. It wasn’t an end-all deal. Now, they measure, “All right, well, how long do your readers have their email opened for?” In other words, how long are they reading it for or how often do they click it? Do they delete it right when they get it or do they file it away and read it later? How many times do they open it? Google actually has a very, very advanced algorithm for this and they published it in a white paper, if you check out their blog. To be honest, it’s a little too complicated for me but it’s a very, very interesting read. The bottom line is, if your people are engaging with their email, you’re going to see lower and lower open rate and you’re going to start to see that 50 to 60% inbox rate we are talking about earlier. John: The big picture in here for people to understand is that when they’re sending an email, they need to … We’ll talk about the specific stuff that they can do in a second but they basically need to- I’ve been doing this, you need people to get to reply, you need to get people to click stuff if you’ve got resources and emails that you said. I don’t even know some of the stuff. DMARC tracks how long the email is open for as well as how many times its clicked, how many times it actually gets opened. What you’re saying is a whole bunch of different metrics that Gmail uses to figure out like to rank sites, or the Facebook gallery with page rank, whatever it’s called. They figure out what email is important and what’s not. If you’re not important, if you’re not sending valuable stuff that’s helping people, it’s just not going to work. Brendan: Exactly,  yeah. They even keep track of how far down you scroll down below default. They literally track everything you can imagine. John: In that sense, I’m getting so many different ideas. Let’s go through the stuff. How about we just go through all the different metrics that they track and then what you can do to get a good metric? Brendan: Definitely. My first and favorite is just simply asking people to add you to their address book. It’s really, really simple. Basically, if you’re in someone’s address book, you’re white listed with them. This engagement stuff and the spam filter kind of takes a backseat. You get to skip that and you just get front row seats right into the inbox. Even better if it’s priority inbox and you’re in their address book. You’re going to place even higher in their folders. John: Some people are going to hear that and I think there’s no point asking my subscriber to put me in their address book. There’s no way they’re going to do that. You’re saying you can say this and people are actually putting them in their address book? Brendan: Yeah, I would say generally about 5% of readers take action on it. Another way that you can be added to someone’s address book, and this one is kind of sneaky, but it also works. If you get someone to reply to your email twice, most email providers, that will add you to their contact book through Gmail and also through a Hotmail. That’s something that you should definitely take into a consideration. As for a reply, golden. John: Once you get two replies, they’re in your address book? Brendan: Exactly, and then you’re golden. John: Damn, that’s some interesting stuff. Okay, what’s next? Brendan: Next stuff is going to be just overall opens. I’ve seen a lot of people in the past do anything to get that open. Obviously, subject line is key when you’re hunting for opens. The problem is if you’re using that sort of, “Anything goes,” in the subject line method, you’re going to lose credibility and sure, you’ll get that first open but guess what? Next time, they’re going to see your name in the front line and they’ll be like, “Oh, what a bullshitter,” and then you’re going to end up in their trash can or their spam box. It’s really just being clear and interesting with your subject lines. I know that’s kind of obvious but far too often, people will anything on the subject line to get the first open. You just want to make sure you summarize your email to get the click. John: That’s what I find too. With email, especially with a subject line, you don’t have to be clever or anything like that. Often, it’s just simple as finding a really concise way to say whatever is in the email because then, what will happen is this sort of person that would respond to whatever is in the email will be attracted to the subject line and will open the email. There’s no point. Everyone else who the email contact is not relevant to, there’s no need for them to open an email if it’s not going to help them. There’s no need to make them or try and trick them into opening an email. That’s a waste of your time, that’s a waste of their time. Brendan: Totally, totally agree with you, yeah. John: After I add you to my address book, overall opens. It sounds like you’re saying don’t focus on the single open, right? Focus on how can you cultivate an ongoing, long-term open rate. Brendan: Agree, and this is another one that is semi-nebulous but have that conversational tone. At least in my experience, people don’t like being spoken to in emails; they like being spoken with. Be it as simple as asking them what they want to hear about via survey or asking them how often they want to hear from you. One of the best engagement tricks I’ve ever seen is companies set up a survey specifically and ask how often their subscribers wanted to hear from them. It seems so simple and so obvious but it made a huge, huge difference. You interact with people how they wanted to be interacted with, not how you want to interact with them. John: Just actually one of the features of Ontraport, right? If you hit Unsubscribe, it will actually get them to change the mailing to once a week, right? Brendan: Yeah, through various tagging methods. It’s definitely easy to set up with OAP. John: Interesting. Those things that we open and we write in conversations. What’s the next thing? Brendan: The next thing is with Gmail. I’m sure many people have seen primary social promotions tab. Marketers were all up in arms saying that their business is going to explode and their professional lives were over with this one change that Gmail made. If you’re smart,  you can actually use this to your advantage. I really suggest putting a call to action in, if you advanced auto-responder service that can fire off rules. You can set up rules so that any time someone gets added to your database who has an @gmail.com in their email address, automatically fire them email that says, “Hey, we want to make sure that you get all of our stuff so to make sure, just drag this email over into Primary.” John: That’s very cool. Brendan: From then on, you’ll automatically hit the Primary box and that dragging into the Primary tab is one of the biggest compliments to Google’s Engagement metrics there is. I’m getting a little bit tongue-tied today. That’s something else to take into consideration. John: You can tell them to drag it or you can send them an email like that? Brendan: Yeah. John: What are some other ways like if they’re interacting with email- I’ve often wondered about this. If you send them an email and ends up in their Promotions tab and they go through it, if they reply to it a certain amount of times or click on it a certain amount of time, is that going to move you to the main inbox? Brendan: Yeah, it is so that’s also something else to consider. Based on engagement, you can generally tell whether you’re running up in the Promotions box or the Primary box. You’re going to get less opened up if you’re hitting the Promotions box in Gmail. It’s a little bit different with every business but I highly suggest going and checking out just your Gmail section of your list and seeing where you’re coming through consistently in getting opens and where you’re not, and then sending less mail to the people that you’re not getting open from. This makes sense when you think about the grand scheme of things. If email delivery is a lot about engagement and it’s also a lot about percentages. If you think about complaints and bounces, it’s a percentages game. If you’re sending more engaged email than un-engaged email, that percentage is going to stir you in the right direction towards the Primary box. I highly suggest mailing your active engaged users who have opened or clicked an email from you, say in the past six months. Mail them twice as much as you mail your inactive people and you’re going to start to see a big shift in the way that your new subscribers interact with you. John: This would be an interesting business idea. I don’t know if you guys are doing this yet, but like a smart email orders on the service, that what happens is it basically changes the right at which it sends and not depend on how people interact with it. Let’s say if someone enters your sequence and they reply to your first email and then they click a link in the second email, they’re going to be in daily email or something like that. Then, if they stop replying or if they stop opening, they gradually get less down to say- or maybe you could set the settings to a minimum of once a week and a maximum of once a day. Depending on how much they interact with it, basically you could have an algorithm that then caters or structures or sends the auto responder based on their engagement level. That would be very interesting? Brendan: Yeah, it’s actually completely possible with Ontraport or Office Auto Pilot. It is a very, very amazing tool and that’s one of my favorite things about the platform is that it’s very, very flexible. If you can think it, chances are we’ll be able to do it. John: One thing, I’ve asked this question and then this next question. Sounds like some people find that they read a lot of data … I’m always interested in asking something like this, but here it is. What’s the most interesting or some of the most counterintuitive things you’ve learned doing the marketing for all these big name marketers with lots of data? Brendan: One of the funny things I’ve ever seen is that a marketer actually took our Unsubscribe link and he attached it to one of his emails. Then he put a red banner and it said, “Complain, or This is Spam,” or something of that sort. Whenever anyone would open one of his emails, there’s this big honkin’ red button that says, “This is Spam,” at the top of his emails. His messages have gotten some of the lowest complaints I have ever seen because instead of clicking the in-app, this spam button and a complaint being sent to Hotmail or to Yahoo! and penalizing his sending, they would  click what they thought was a spam button, which is really an Unsubscribe button, so they would just be unsubscribed. I thought that was pretty tricky and pretty awesome. John: Did his unsubscribe go up or down with that? Brendan: The unsubscribe rate went up slightly but I would take an unsubscribe versus a complaint any day. An unsubscribe is completely unconsequential. It’s one of those things that people don’t unsubscribe because they want to buy from you. Just like happy people usually don’t get divorced. It’s kind of the same setting there. They’re unsubscribing for a reason and that’s okay. They don’t complain and you’re better for it.  Your list is cleaner, your list is more engaged and you’re better off without them. John: Because like the spam, the spam complaint will hurt you. It hurts the domain, it hurts the center score, it hurts Google’s algorithm engagement score but if they just unsubscribe, they’re just saying, “Yeah, it’s not for me. It’s all good.” Brendan: Exactly. The ISP’s out there, they understand that too. That’s why they have feedback loops. When someone complains with one of the major providers, it sends out a notification assuming your provider’s hooked up with them about them complaining so they can be unsubscribed. The idea is that they want unsubscribes, too. John: I’m curious, with some of these guys, do you have an engagement algorithm so you can track the engagement for your customers? Brendan: Right now, what we do is we just have a last activity field that updates based on whether someone has clicked an email or opened an email. That’s been sufficient so far. Looking forward, we are looking into more advanced methods. Maybe having an automated scoring method. I know Mail Chimp, who’s another great ESP out on the market if you’re only looking for email. They’ve got a five star rating system so when you look at your list, they’ll just break it down and tell you who’s engaged and who’s not, who you probably shouldn’t mail. With us, we have the data available but it’s really more of a judgment call than something we force on you. John: Right, okay. I’m just curious, we’ve talked about some ways to increase engagement. I’m curious what are the best customers doing? What are the guys and girls with the highest engagement scores doing for engagement? Like in my email in my sequence, I ask people to reply than in email, I usually get them to click a link. At various emails throughout the rest of the sequence, I’m asking them to click something or reply to the email with feedback on something? Brendan: I would say that all of these tricks definitely help, but at the end of the day, the guys are doing the best or really the guys that are just out there to help and to make a difference in the lives of their prospects and their customers. That true voice and that true intention, it can’t be replicated. Your customers can tell if you’re trying to BS them into a sale. If you’re really just out there and providing value, your customers are going to engage, whether you’ve got this spam button at the top or not. That certainly helps but at the end of the day, content is key. I would say another really good thing is if you’re really good at writing hooks in a paragraph or two, write a hook and then put a Read More link to your blog. I know that’s standard operating procedure for a ton of people but that will get you a click very easy. If someone is reading and all of sudden, to finish it, they have to click to the next page. John: Just to have a really engaged list, instead of giving them a content in the mail, just give them that Read More link. Brendan: Yeah, exactly. John: Okay, interesting. That sounds a great note but there’s more about why you can go and figure out all these tricks and these ways to hack I guess the engagement. At the end of the day, what really counts is are you solving a real problem in the marketplace? Are you creating value? Brendan: Exactly. John: Tell you what, before we go then, let’s wrap it up here. Tell people where they can go to learn more about Ontraport, Office AutoPilot, what’s the difference, all that sort of stuff. Brendan: Yes. Office AutoPilot is the current version of our software. Ontraport is a new version, 3.0. We’re currently in beta and we’re getting less and less bugs by the day, which is awesome. We’re looking to go live soon. If you want to sign up, I highly suggest to check out officeautopilot.com. Don’t worry, when the new brand and the revamped version comes out, we will be doing an account transfer so no need to worry about. If you listen to this podcast, I’m also offering a free 30 minute, one on one deliverability consultation. Shoot an email to brendan@officeautopilot.com and we’ll be able to get something set up for you. John: That was cool. Thanks for coming on the show. This has been really helpful. Brendan: Of course, great. Thanks for having me, John. It’s been awesome. The post Episode #50 – Brendan Dubbels on Ninja Tricks to Skip the Waiting List and Get Your Emails Prioritized appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


25 Mar 2014

Rank #1

Podcast cover

Episode #53 – Perry Marshall On 80/20 Marketing Strategies to Grow Your Bottom Line

Congratulations! You can eliminate 80% of your to-do list. That’s right. Find the one or two tasks that “move the dial”… …and ONLY do those. Work less. Make more money. Sound good? Good. There’s only one problem – How do you decide what tasks are high-impact? Today – You’ll meet an 80/20 expert… …and learn how to best leverage your time into cash. Perry Marshall is the world’s TOP expert on 80/20 marketing. He’s the author of several “Ultimate Guides”: [+] Google Adwords [+] Facebook Advertising [+] Pay-Per-Click Advertising …and most recently: 80/20 Sales and Marketing: The Definitive Guide to Working Less and Making More. TRUST me. Perry’s book was one of the best I read all last year.  While reading – I remember thinking: “This book’s going to make me a millionaire.” Felt like escaping the Matrix. You’ll see why. Stick around to the end – Perry offers you a deal you can’t refuse. In this episode, you’ll discover: why it’s EASIER to make $100,000 than $10,000 how to approach direct marketing like an engineer the most common personality type to starting a successful business (is this you?) what Starbucks can teach you about growing your revenue the #1 question to ask your prospects (stick this in your survey!) how to instantly differentiate yourself from competitors Mentioned: Dan Kennedy Perry Marshall’s book: 80/20 Sales and Marketing Sell8020.com – Perry’s offer to you: get his book here Legendary copywriter Herschell Gordon Lewis “Sell results, not procedures.” Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Raw transcript: Download PDF transcript here. John: It’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder Guy. I’m here with Perry Marshall. Now, Perry is the world’s top expert on online marketing, especially pay per click marketing with Google AdWords, with Facebook. We’re just chatting. He does a whole range of stuff from the page graphic to the email marketing. He’s got email copywriting products. He’s got stuff on the strategy and the 80/20 principle and a whole bunch of different things. There’s several books on AdWords, on Facebook ads, on split testing, all this different stuff. It’s really, really good. I just actually read one of his books recently and it blew my mind. I’ll talk a bit about that today. Now, that book was actually 80/20 Sales and Marketing. I read it a couple of months ago. I’ve recommended it to I don’t know how many friends. I seriously recommend it. It was one of the best books I’ve read probably in the last year. How about that? I remember thinking while I was reading it that the ideas in his book are going to make me a millionaire one day. It felt a bit like escaping the matrix. You’ll see why in just a minute. So that’s that. First, I want to welcome Perry. Perry, how are you going today? Perry: Good. Great. It’s a beautiful day and I’m glad to be talking to you. Nice to meet a guy who knows the power of auto-responders. It’s a little bit of a best-kept secret still. John: It is. Perry: I’m glad that we’re talking. John: Cook, man, cool. I’m actually blown away by how many … outside the internet marketing space, a lot of people have no idea, business owners have no idea what an auto-responder even is. They’re blown away that you could even do it. Perry: Yeah, you have to be an internet marketer to really know. I think a lot of us do, but yeah, 90% of people out there, some of them may have heard of it and it doesn’t mean a thing to them. There’s a lot of ignorance yet to stamp out. John: Before we get into the … we’ll talk about some stuff, tell the listener a bit about who you are. I’ve given you a quick little intro. Maybe you can give them a bit more on who you are, what you do, all that kind of stuff. Perry: Well, I’m a guy who got laid off from my engineering job when my wife was three months pregnant with our first kid and kind of … I ended up in sales. I couldn’t find the engineering job I was looking for without moving away and I didn’t want to do that. “Well, I’ll do sales. Those guys aren’t very smart. I’ll show them.” Two years later, after a lot of baloney sandwiches and Ramen soup and overdraft notices and all that stuff, I was, “Man, this is a lot harder than I thought.” It was even hard if you had a really nice boss and you worked in a good environment. It was still brutal. It’s like get up every day and open the manufacturer’s directory and start pounding the phone and get some appointments. It was just, it was brutal. Well, I got fired from my first sales job after trying really, really, really hard for two years, but around that time I discovered direct marketing. I heard Dan Kennedy at a seminar that I went to and he was talking about direct response advertising, which today is pretty common. It was very definitely the red-headed stepchild of advertising back then, and I found that direct marketers are kind of like engineers. I could understand what they were saying. When somebody finally started explaining direct marketing, what actually started to make sense to me was direct mail. Now, the internet was pretty new at that time and I was beginning to use it, but it was like, well, a sales letter needs to have this sort of a structure to it, you know. You’ve got to grab the person’s attention. You’ve got to draw them in with a story that talks about their pain, and eventually you’re going to get around to explaining how your problem solves it. I’m like, okay, that’s something I hadn’t really understood. I would go into a sales situation and I would just start showing people stuff and saying stuff and asking questions and just kind of riffing; okay? My riffing just didn’t work very well. There’s just so many things I didn’t understand. All of a sudden it started to click in place. I took this other job. We had a website and we sold to people who used the internet, and it all started to click. After a few years of that, it was a reasonably successful sales career at that point, and I said to myself, wow, what if I actually got good at this stuff, because right now I’m just, I’m functional with it; okay? I’m functional and that’s great, but what if I got really good? How much would that pay off? Well, that kind of leads to where I am now. I got a touch of attention deficit disorder so that’s probably why I got my fingers in so many pies. I think most of us … You’re a copywriter and good copywriters, I find … I barely know you; okay? You contacted my office and you passed the smell test and my staff checked you out and I checked you out. It looks good. You’re the Autoresponder Guy, but I can probably make some pretty accurate predictions about you. You’re a guy who I am going to guess is endlessly fascinated with about 900 different things and it’s the only way that you can not go stir crazy is to have another new project you can sink your teeth into everyday that takes you into some other hither-to unexplored corner of the universe; right? If that sounds like something you’d like, well, maybe you should be a freelance marketer. Fair enough, John? Is that good? John: Fair enough, man, fair enough. That’s the endless struggle. Perry: Your family, your school teachers didn’t know what to do with you. What is the matter with this kid? Why won’t he sit still, you know? Why does he fidget all the time? If he would only apply … he has so much potential. If he would only apply himself to his schoolwork instead of chasing caterpillars with a magnifying glasses. John: It’s funny. I remember for a long time I looked, these kind of things, like diving off in a million different direction at once as though it was the bad thing, and as I’ve met more entrepreneurs and more marketers I’ve seen that that’s like a prerequisite personality function to be successful at business. If you don’t have that, it’s really hard to be successful. Perry: Yeah. Yeah, it is. In fact, I was on the phone yesterday with one of my close marketing friends, and he goes, “I am …” and he’s hunting for the word … he goes, “ I’m slightly autistic.” He goes, and I read this book and it said I’m constantly checking things, checking this, checking that, checking the other thing. Well, that’s actually a form of autism. It seems to be like really healthy for me. It works. I’ve got these clients and I’ve got to watch their stats and make sure their websites are working right. Well, you know, I guess I kind of like it. Well, all right. We all get our diagnosis and we harness our dysfunction. You know, frankly, whatever dysfunction you have, even if it’s borderline personality disorder, you can find a way, some kind of career, that’s going to put it to good use. So flow with it. John: That’s the interesting part. They call them personality disorders. I wonder why. I think sometimes they’re only disorders because they don’t fit into most people’s idea of the way we should all live, but if you can find the right way to apply that … Perry: The people that invent the labels are just trying to displace the attention away from their own disorder onto somebody. That’s what’s really going on. John: Technically, if we were all the same in terms of business, if everyone was an entrepreneur, then all those weird people, people would have disorders if they only wanted to focus on one thing instead of a million things. Perry: I’ll tell you, really, in all seriousness, the most important thing in marketing is having a USP, a Unique Selling Proposition. It even took me a year or two to figure that out, and I didn’t really figure it out until the direct marketers taught it to me. But eccentric people come up with USPs a lot easier than normal ones do. If you were always eccentric and you considered it a curse, well, here it’s a blessing. John: Absolutely. This is a great place to segue into this idea of 80/20 Sales and Marketing, because basically you’ve got a million things. We all want to go in a million directions at once in our business, but the whole principle of this book, 80/20 … The reason why I found it so valuable is I read The 4-Hour Workweek maybe three, four, five years ago, something like that, Tim Ferriss mentions the 80/20 principle in that book. I was like, that sounds kind of cool, it’s a little bit helpful, but I thought, I want 100% of the results. The way he seemed to put it is I’d have to do 20% of the effort and only get 80%, but I wanted to get 100%. Then what happened with your book is that it kind of made me decide, it clicked, hang on, why can’t I just scale back, just do 20% to get 80% and then not only that, double the amount of investment I put in that 20%, which then makes my output 160%. Then when that clicked it’s like, hang on, out of all those million things that I could be doing, all I have to do is identify the 20%, those small things, and just double, triple or whatever, my investment of time and energy and focus into those areas and they’ll be exponential improvements over time in the business. Perry: Yes, that’s exactly right. The thing that people don’t understand about 80/20 is that when you find a way to get the insignificant 80% taken care of, like sometimes it does have to be taken care of. There are some things you can’t ignore. There could be 78 things that make your website work and any one of them could make it fail; right? You have to have all 78, and there is a sense where there does have to be a 100%, but if you can get the 80 taken care of and focus on the 20 and make space, you will always find that there’s another place you can go where your time is even more valuable. John: Right. Perry: In the book it’s called the 80/20 curve, and you can graft 80/20 and it looks kind of like this exponential growth curve except it’s more than that. It’s more than exponential. It’s really mind-bending when you get down into it. When you climb that curve, you find there’s always territory ahead of you that you’re still not doing. You just kind of have to trust the process and understand that pretty much is a law of physics that those higher realms are always there. There might be occasional exceptions, but for the most part, it’s true. What you come to understand is that the results that people get, the incomes that people make, the sales they create, all of that stuff, it’s not in additions and increments, it’s in multiples and powers of 10. It’s not $50,000 a year, $60,000 a year or 70, 100, 110, 120. No. It’s more like 10,000, 100,000, 1,000,000, 10,000,000. John: I like the way you framed it up there. What was kind of running through my head when I read the book was that it’s a bit like … It was a great metaphor for entrepreneurship was when you’re getting started, you start off and you’re trying to make $1,000 a month. But while you’re trying to make $1,000, you’ve still got this idea in your head once you get to 1,000, it’s going to take the same amount of time to get to 2,000, and it’s really hard to shake that feeling or that idea in your head. But once you get to 1,000, all of a sudden you get to 3 or 4 a lot faster and a lot easier than it was to get to 1,000. Then you take that 3 and 4 and you get to, say, 10 or 20. It seems like entrepreneurship, this definition; it’s on Wikipedia from some French guy. I hope that’s not bad that I don’t even know this guy’s name. He might be real famous. But the idea is that you’re moving your resources from a lower area of yield to a higher area of yield. What we’re doing, everyone has got their own 80/20 in their own life right now. If they just execute on those tasks, on that thing, that will get result in the fastest way possible. Then as soon as they’ve done that, there will be another playing field and then another playing field and then another playing field. Every time they run that script, they run that, it’s almost like a script on a computer. Every time you run that 80/20 script you get bigger and bigger and bigger results. Perry: Yes. In fact, I’ve said for years, it is easier, like in an online business; it is easier to get from $100,000 a year to a million than it is to get from 10,000 to 100. For most people the real barrier is getting from 10,000 a year to 100,000, or in monthly sales $1,000 a month to 10,000 a month. That’s where the competition is really thick. Then you get a breakthrough. It’s certainly not harder to go from 100K to a million than it is from 10 to 100. People don’t understand that. It always does require a change in focus. The exact thing that got you to 100K a year is not going to get you to a million. You’re going to be doing very different things. John: Right. It’s kind of like the level of thinking that got you to where you are today is different from the sort of thinking that’s going to get you to where you want to be. Perry: Right. John: Go on. Perry: No. Go ahead. John: A lot of business owners have heard this. I heard it in the 4-Hour Workweek five years ago and it took another five years for it to really click. It wasn’t sort of seeing that, like, I understood it but I didn’t  do anything about it or really think about it with any sort of proper focus. This year, since I read the book, every day when I wake up it’s becoming more of a habit now and I’m thinking, well, what can I eliminate from this list that just isn’t going to matter much at all. It turns out there’s a lot of stuff that I’ve been doing that I don’t really need to do or I can just hire … I’ve hired one person. I hire another person next week. It’s all because of starting to think like this. What have you seen in your work with business owners, some of the biggest barriers that stop people from thinking like this, and how do we overcome them? Perry: Well, the way that I overcame it was starting to see all the things on my list to do everyday as being on an exponential scale, so there’s $10-an-hour tasks, there’s $100-an-hour tasks and there’s $1,000-an hour-tasks, and $10,000-an-hour tasks. In fact, I have a chart on page 119 that describes typical … There’s a $10 column and a $100 column and $1,000 column, and it tells you what those things typically are and what you typically earn from those efforts. Let’s say that you have a to-do list with 111 things, which for a week there might be 111. Well, 100 of those things are worth $10 an hour and 10 of them are worth $100 an hour and one is worth $1,000 an hour. That’s kind of how it is. Okay? If you know that, if you know that one-tenth of your tasks are ten times as valuable, if you know that 1% of your tasks are 100 times as valuable, all of a sudden it just completely shifts your understanding of what’s important and what’s not. What I find is a lot of people are, I think everybody who’s really good at anything is a perfectionist in some sense, but most of us misapply our perfectionism, and we sit and we polish these little turds and it doesn’t actually make any difference whether most of these things are done really well or frankly done sort of lousy as long as they get done somehow by somebody, whereas if you focus your perfectionism on a few things … You think about it, think of bands and songs and stuff like that. A band in their whole entire career will probably have five or ten hits. What that means is there’s only five or ten songs that absolutely had to be perfect, you know? You have an album and you get one or two hits and the other songs are definitely not hits. Well, those other songs, sure, it’s good for the fans and the people that buy the album for those songs to be done well, but it’s really the hit songs that need to be perfect. Now, what I’ve found is you can’t predict the hit song before you even record them. Maybe you can but usually you can’t. You have to get things to some level of acceptability before you can tell which one is going to take off. But I bet you by the time at least had the basic tracks laid down most of the bands had a pretty good idea which two or three songs were going to be popular and which ones weren’t. You have to be very selective about your perfectionism. Then also understand that there are some things, there’s a tiny, just few things, that almost couldn’t be perfect enough. It’s like you could just continue to make them more and more perfect and you will continue to make exponentially more results from them. John: What’s an example of something like that? Perry: Well, I think a big one is how products get simplified. I think the highest form of perfection and perfectionism is the kind of perfectionism that Steve Jobs applied. Steve Jobs, he wanted products to be, they needed to be functional and they needed to do the things that they’re supposed to do but they also needed to do it with utmost simplicity and ease. What I think a lot of us do is we get into business and we finally eventually figure out how to make it work, but then what we try to do, we try to become more successful by making what we sell more complicated. I think that’s okay and it’s kind of normal, but the real breakthroughs are when you figure out how to simplify something to a tremendous degree. The Smartphone is a tremendous simplifier because, oh, you need a guitar tuner? Download an app. You need a metronome? Download an app. You need a map? Download an app. And it all fits in your pocket, and the phone only has two buttons. Right? It’s got that little round one in the bottom and it’s got the power button at the top. That is extreme simplicity. John: Okay. Perry: Extreme simplicity. I think what everybody needs to be doing, so one of my favorite phrases in marketing is, “Sell results, not procedures,” and I stole it from Herschell Gordon Lewis. Now, if you apply “Sell results, not procedures” to everything you sell, it changes the definition of what you sell. Coffee, okay, coffee shops thought they were selling coffee. Starbucks, 20 years ago, whenever they kind of caught their stride, they said, we’re going to sell a $2 luxury and a luxury experience that everybody can afford. They made a Starbucks store into a little taste of luxury. Now, I like Starbucks. I like going there. I went there yesterday. Why do I like it? Well, I like the music. I like the atmosphere. I like the coffee. I like the caffeine buzz, and I like the fact that I can go sit there with my notebook or my laptop and I can do some work and it’s a very pleasant thing. Think how different that is from going to McDonald’s where for the same amount of money I get a meal … McDonalds is remarkable too. Their food is not healthy and I don’t really like it, but it’s remarkable that you can go and for 4 bucks you can get a lunch. The kids think it tastes great. That’s for sure. Right? McDonalds is selling you a hamburger. Starbucks is selling you an experience. They’re selling you a result, not a procedure. Starbucks does not sell coffee. John: Okay. Perry: I don’t care if you sell medical equipment or you sell … If you can say what is the end result the person actually wants? Nobody who bought a drill wanted a drill. They wanted a hole. If you say, I am in the hole-making business instead of I’m in the drill business, that will always lead you to solve problems better and more simply than everybody else is. There’s no end to how much you can do this, because there’s no end to problems in the world. You can do it and do it and do it. I think one of the most important … The 80/20 curve, it goes up and up an up and it never stops. It just goes higher and higher. For me, what the 80/20 curve is, it’s a rational reasonable to have faith that there’s always another opportunity, that there’s always a higher ladder that you can climb. I think all entrepreneurs, all business owners also need to know there’s no end to the problems that they can solve. The well of human desires is bottomless. How high is up? It doesn’t stop. There is no limit. Compared to 200 years ago, everybody on the planet just about is wealthy. Compared to now, the people 200 years from now, they will consider us to be unfortunate, all those poor people. John: IPhones and computers and all that stuff. Perry: That’s right. John: We’ll wrap it up right here. Just to summarize that, this is like saying you’re not in the Facebook advertising business, you’re in the make-more-money business. Perry: Well, yes. Yes. If everybody is in the make-more-money business, and if you don’t have an identity, something that people can hang their hat on in a USP, then you’re still dead in the water, but regardless of what you’re exact unique individual USP is, there is still the bottom line that … My customers want to make more money, absolutely, and I have to be in the business of that. If I start thinking that I’m in the business of click-through rates and impressions and all these funky little techniques that I get enamored with, I’m going to stagnate, and we all will. You’re in the get-more-clients business. John: Yep. Yep. I see what you mean. You’ve got to have the USP. I’m the Autoresponder Guy, you’re the traffic guy, but then under that, the second layer of that is, yeah, I’m this guy, but I’m really here just to help you make more sales but I’m going to do it under the guise of email traffic or whatever that happens to be. Perry: That’s right. That’s right. John: Fantastic. Well, we’ll wrap it up already. I know you’ve got to get going, but before we go, give the listener a heads up about where they can go to learn more about you or the book or anything you want to talk about. Perry: Yeah, so if I could just pick one thing to encourage people to go do, it would be read the 80/20 Sales and Marketing book, and read the whole thing. I wrote this for two kinds of people. I wrote this for the guy who is just like I was 20 years ago when I got fired from my first sales job and was scraping change out of the car seats in order to buy lunch. But I also wrote it for the guy who’s running a $50,000,000 company. Okay? Literally, the book, it will change your perspective. John, you can agree or disagree, but I think it will actually alter your perspective about what’s important in sales and marketing in a major way. It will make a major shift. I have a very interesting offer on my website. If you go to sell80/20.com, S-E-L-L 8020.com, I’ve got an offer. I’ll sell you my book for 7 bucks. It’s a penny plus $6.99 shipping if you’re in the US. Shipping is double if you’re outside the US, but less money than Amazon, less money than the bookstore. I’ll ship it to you. Read the book from cover to cover. Why am I doing this? I mean, I’m taping dollar bills to this book; okay? Here’s why I’m doing this. I found out, I did the numbers and did the math, 80/20; right? Well, 78.6% of the people who buy that book don’t buy anything else from me. You know what? 21.4% do. And they go on to be raving fans and great customers. I’m willing to tape dollar bills to that book for the 20% who step up and go, “Hey, I really like that.” They’re like John McIntyre, “I really like this book. I’m going to pay attention to this guy.” I think it will change your life. You can go to sell 80/20.com. You can buy it for 7 bucks. Even if you have to scrape the 7 bucks out of your car seats and skip lunch, you should buy this book, because it will change your life. John: All right. I’ll leave a link to that in the show notes at theMcMethod.com. I can highly recommend the book. It does produce a huge change, a huge shift in your thinking, so no arguments there at all. Perry, thanks for coming on the show. Perry: Thank you, John. It was great to talk to you today. The post Episode #53 – Perry Marshall On 80/20 Marketing Strategies to Grow Your Bottom Line appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


15 Apr 2014

Rank #2

Similar Podcasts

Podcast cover

Episode #58 – Damian Thompson on The 3 Email Marketing Campaigns Every Business Should Have

 Damian Thompson is an email marketing POWERHOUSE. He drops so much knowledge on us in today’s episode, you can almost hear Arnold Schwarzenegger warning you to, “Get Doooooown!” It’s that good… Damian’s company Linchpin, helps businesses make more money with every email they send using a method almost no one talks about… …marketing automation. Damian believes every business ought to have 3 campaigns… 3 campaigns that talk directly to who you’re targeting, depending on how ready they are to buy. Think about it… At the very least, you’ve gotta talk to prospects and customers differently. But if you wanna be a real email boss, you’ve gotta talk to prospects differently based on what stage of the buying cycle they’re in. That’s why you NEED multiple campaigns… …and that’s what you’ll discover in today’s episode. In this episode, you’ll discover: Why creating 3  campaigns helps you reach your GREATEST potential (vs using a single auto-responder for everyone on your list). How to plant seeds within your emails in order to avoid having to ‘pitch‘ during the phone call. What The Insult Sandwich is and how/when to use it in order to keep your clients hooked, even after you’ve exposed them their faults. Why your BEST salesmen in the world are your happy clients (included are actionable steps for how best to utilize their services). The number one reason why email is the most powerful marketing tool on Earth (After hearing this, you’ll want to improve your email chops, ASAP). How to identify a person’s buying stage (master this, and your campaigns will provide you endless success). What the rule of reciprocity is and how to use it for boundless personal and financial gains. How to get people to know, like, and trust you (through selective campaigns, you can focus on their true needs). Why social proof is EXTREMELY powerful (and how you can use it to put your current income to shame). Mentioned: Gary Vaynerchuk‘s jab,jab,hook method Jay Abraham‘s prowess Drop Dead Copy  Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Raw transcript: Download PDF transcript here. John:Hey, everybody. It’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder Guy, and it’s time for Episode 58, 5-8, of the McMethod Email Marketing Podcast where you’ll discover basically how to make your email marketing kick ass and make more money with it. Today, we’ll be talking to Damian Thompson about the three marketing automation campaigns every business should have. Now, this is a topic that I’ve haven’t really talked about on this podcast. I haven’t had too many guests on to talk about it either, but here’s a quick summary of what this is all about. You can go and get an email software program like Infusionsoft or Office Auto Pilot, and what that software will allow you to do is when someone clicks a link in your emails or when someone visits a page on your website, you can trigger an email that gets sent out to them. Let’s say, for example, I am not using a software like this for myself but supposed I was, you’d go to my site, you sign up to my daily email list. The software would cookie you. Basically put a tracking cookie on to your computer. Then, let’s say a week later, you visited my page that’s basically selling ten email autoresponder sequences. There is a form on that page but let’s say you visited that page and you didn’t fill out that form. You just visited, checked it out, then left. What I could do is set Infusionsoft or Office Auto Pilot to send you an email and say, “Hey, we noticed you checked out this page. Do you have any questions on this service?” It’s called marketing automation. Here’s another thing. You’ve got to understand what stage of the buying cycle people are in. You’ve got really cold prospects which basically mean you need to establish your authority with them, but once they’ve contacted you, once they’ve replied to an email, or talked to you on the phone, they really need to go into a proper sales funnel sequence, something more aggressive. What we’re talking about here today is what sort of campaigns do you need to have for prospects, and then when they get a little bit warmer, and then what about customers, and why they really should not be running at the same time. Today, Damian talks and he runs basically a marketing automation agency where they set these things up for people. He’s actually a bit of a friend as well. We’ve both worked in the Philippines. He was at the resort before I was if you’ve heard that story before. This is going to be a really fascinating episode. It’s got me all pumped up about marketing automation. To get the short notes for this episode of the email marketing podcast, go to the McMethod.com/58. Now, before we do that, I’ve got a couple of things to mention, this week’s McMasters Insight of the Week. If you don’t know, McMasters is my paid membership community. You’d get the McIntyre Method, Stories that Sell, a bunch of different products that is going to help you do email marketing better. There’s a whole group of people in there right now who are learning how to do their email marketing. Anyway, insight of the week this week, there is a forum. That is where I am getting these insights from. The insight this week is, your product does not matter. The solution is the only thing that matters. Your job as the copywriter is to get someone sold on the benefits of a solution. Not your solution but a solution. Now, I’ve read that and replied to a thread when someone was talking about their product. Now, what you need to understand is your product literally does not matter. What matters is the result someone that’s going to get by using it. It’s not about the e-book, it’s not about the videos, it’s not about the kitchen knives, it’s not about any of that. It’s about a flat stomach. It’s a beautifully cut steak. It’s about plumbing in a house that works perfectly, and that’s what you’re selling. You’re not selling an e-book. You’re not selling videos. You’re not selling any of these things. You’re selling a result. When you get that, you realize that when you do your sales cover, when you do your emails, you do all of these things. It’s all about that result. You don’t need to even worry. It’s almost like the e-book, the fact that it’s an e-book, or you’re a plumber, or you sell kitchen knives, or you sell videos, whatever it is, that’s just the side note. It’s like making me even saying supposed you’re really fat and you wanted to lose weight, I’d say, “Hey, Dave. How would you like to lose 50 pounds in the next 50 days?” and you’d be like, “Fantastic. Where do I sign up?” I’m like, “Great.” I could be like, “Well, I’ve got an e-book,” or “I’ve got videos,” or “I’ve got special personal training program,” or whatever it is, but if I could get you convinced that you’re going to get that result, the product doesn’t matter, you’ll go through the e-book, you’ll go through the videos, you’ll go through the training if you’re convinced that you’d get the result that you want. That’s it for this insight. If you want to learn more about McMasters and get some more of these insights into your life, go to the McMethod.com/McMasters. There’s a link in the top menu bar as well if that link doesn’t work, and I’ll see you on the Insider when you start talking more about this stuff. Now, reviews. If you want to leave me an iTunes review, if you enjoyed this show, if you’re getting a lot out of it, it really helps spread the word and really makes my day. Go to iTunes, search for the McMethod Email Marketing Podcast, leave me an iTunes review, tell me what you think about this show, any guest you think I should interview, I am going to owe you a high five one day, and if you come to [inaudible 00:04:35] Thailand or if I bump into you in the States or somewhere one day, tell me you left me a review and I’ll buy you a beer. I’ve got one listener question really quickly today, what is the best way to get traffic to your website both free and paid? It’s an interesting question because it’s presupposes that there is a best way and honestly, there is no best way. There is context. There is only context. If you have no money, and you don’t want to spend money on ads, you can’t spend money on ads, then paid traffic is ruled out in the context of your life, your situation. Paid traffic is irrelevant, so you got to do free traffic. The goal here should be to go borrow some money. The problem with free traffic is that people think, “Oh, it’s free. It doesn’t cost anything.” Well it does cost a lot of things. It costs time, it costs energy, it costs research, it costs the stress that comes with playing with Google. Google does these little animal updates, you know panda, penguin, rhinoceros, hippopotamus. That is so stressful. I’ve been there. I’ve done that. I don’t want to even think about SEO because it’s annoying. I don’t want to have to deal with Google. Paid traffic on the other hand doesn’t cost that much time, doesn’t cost that much energy once you get the hang of it but it does cost money. It depends. If you want to trade your time and energy for traffic or do you want to trade your money for traffic. Once you figured out that, then you’re going to know whether to do free traffic or paid traffic. Let’s say you’re going to do free, well that’s going to be things like a podcast, content marketing like blog posts, guest posting, all those different things. There’s no best way. There is just different ways. A lot of with the free way, you’re going to have to create good content. Otherwise, it’s not going to do that much or you’re going to have to be a really good SEO’er. Now, as a paid traffic, I am getting started with Facebook ads right now, and I think that will be a great place for a lot of people to start. There’s some really good targeting options, it’s very cheap. It’s a lot cheaper than Google AdWords. It’s a great place to get your feet wet in the advertising, paid advertising space and as you grow that … This is what I mean, the context. If you’re just a beginner, then start with Facebook advertising. It’s still running, it’s still good, it’s cheap, and you’ll get the hang of it. Then, once you’ve got some chops down, then you go into AdWords, and then you go and so some banner advertising. There is no best way. There is only context. You got to understand what’s going to work for you in your personal situation. Anyway, that’s it for now. I am all jacked up because I’ve had a coffee at 7:00. Let’s see, it’s 9:00 a.m. here in Thailand so I’ve got that morning buzz. Anyway, that’s it for now. Let’s get into this podcast with Damian Thompson. It’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder guy. I am here with Damian Thompson. I first met Damian a long time ago. I think it’s about 3 years. I was applying for a job in the Philippines to work at a resort. Now, some of you might have heard about of this because you’ve heard the podcast before where I go on, where I went to the Philippines and turned up, and didn’t really know much about marketing, and all. I taught myself copywriting and kind of got started. Damian was the guy that interviewed me for that position. That’s like 3 years back, right, and now we’re here. I’ve gone off and done some copywriting stuff. Now, I have a bit of marketing agency coaching business sort of thing going on, and Damian’s gone on his own direction. Similar field with the marketing but what he is doing is marketing automation. This is something that we haven’t talked about too much on this podcast for no specific reason other than the guests that I’ve had on so far aren’t specifically about marketing automation but Damian is. His business is all about creating different email campaigns depending on what stage the prospect of the customer is in. it’s really cool stuff, and he’s got some great stuff to share. Ways you can make it really simplified and that’s important because you do not want to be doing this stuff manually. That is such a waste of time. We’re going to talk about today some really cool stuff that actually, the three campaigns every business should have. Damian will tell you more about that in just a second, but first, Damian, how are you doing today, man? Damian:Good, John. How are you doing, brother? John:Fantastic, man. It’s good to have you on. Damian:Yeah, you know it’s funny. Obviously, I knew it, but hearing you talk about it, our paths were very similar. You know I had that job before you did and then you took the job. We both went from that to I focused on copywriting as paid copywriter for about a year or so and then I ventured off into my own path and you kind of ventured off into teaching other people how to do copywriting and really kind of helping companies do well with autoresponders. It’s interesting. I joke that I came here for 3 months and I stayed for 3 years. The Philippines got me. John:It’s that kind of place, man. I mean I was there for 4 years, or 4 months, was only going to be there for 4 months and was there for 12 months instead. I don’t know how it does it man. It just does it. Damian:It does.  It sure does.  I’m happy to be on.  I’m a fan of the podcast.  I like it and I like the stuff you do so definitely I’m looking forward to talking today about the 3 campaigns that every business should have. John:Cool man. Well before we do that … I’ve given people a quick background of what you’re into, but you’ve probalby got the detailed, in-depth, fun version, so give me that. Hit me that. Who’s Damian Thompson and what does he do? Damian:Nice.  Okay, so I’ll give you the sales pitch.  Here’s the sales pitch. John:Do it. Damian:I’m the founder and chief revenue officer of a company called Linchpin. Linchpin helps professionals of small businesses gain new customers faster, retain existing clients longer, and obtain market leadership through sales and marketing automation. That’s practice. Do you like that? Do you like that, man? John:That’s cool. I was thinking you’d be talking for like 5 minutes because that’s what some people do but you’ve done it that’s like 20 seconds, 15 seconds. Damian:Got it, man. It’s the elevator pitch. I’m an ex-sales guy, so you learn those tricks. John:That’s a great example. Anyone listening, you’ve got to have this pitch down. You go to a conference, when you’ve got to a podcast, this is what you need. Damian:I spent about 15 years in sales and marketing for big software companies like McAfee and Symantec doing that, kind of traveling around the world, Australia, Asia, the U.S. And then about 4 years ago took the same gig you did to kind of decide, “Hey, I want to translate these corporate skills into online skills and kind of work for myself and be a little more independent with where I lived in the world,” and bumps and bruises and a bunch of mistakes and then kind of finally figured out the hard way what people really wanted to pay for. John:Okay. Okay and like just to go back a little bit because there’s a bit of a story there with how …Well, both of that result, we both left, we’re both doing copywriting and marketing and then that is how it started right was just copywriting? Damian:Right.  Yeah. John:But then I went off and started calling myself the Autoresponder Guy as kind of like a positioning thing and then you ended up you did the same thing just in a different direction and since then because I was in this podcast with you on Schramko and that led me to do another podcast with Schramko recently but this whole idea of when you finally figured out that you were going to be the marketing automation guy, the marketing automation company in the circle or in the scene that we’re in, things took off right? That’s one of the catalyst points. Damian:Yeah, so I’m a big fan of [inaudible 00:10:52] I’m a big fan of the whole idea of niching down. I know it gets beat up a lot and Schramko beats it up a lot but I mean the reality is is that it’s about getting the right-sized niche. Niching down is a great way to launch a business, at least. I’ve come from corporate, I’ve done through startups, I’ve raised venture capital twice, a couple of million dollars each time so I knew how to build a small company but I really was struggling. When you build a startup, it’s all about trying to address the largest market possible, right? You raise a bunch of money and then you spend a bunch of money trying to go after, solve a big problem. A billion dollar problem, but when you’re bootstrapping, when you’re building yourself, it’s about finding your people, finding your tribe, finding your niche, and doing that in a more cost-effective and faster way because you’re paying all the bills. I really struggled for a while, so I went from being a solo copywriter, doing the oDesk thing, hustling up contracts that way, and then doing referrals and stuff, into launching a content marketing agency and I didn’t love that at first, and my focus there was, I wash focusing on early-stage funded software companies. I come from that world, and they have a bunch of money so they didn’t complain about rates so I could charge a premium, which I like charging a premium. I didn’t have a problem over money, the problem was is that the engagements weren’t very long and I wanted a recurring revenue because they either run out of money, because they got a business, or they have success and they start hiring people and they hire content marketers, they hire copywriters. It wasn’t a great fit, so I went back doing the solo consulting thing and then over beers one night with Dan Andrews and then Justin Cooke from Empire Flippers and they’re beating me up again about not having a niche and so I just finally had enough and said, “Okay, great. You just beat me up a lot. I agree. I want one. How about you help me pick one and stop beating me up already.” We sat there, we talked about it, what happened was I just asked them, I said, “Well, what would you pay me $500 a month to do for you?” At the time, Justin just bought Office Autopilot, now Ontraport, and said, “Look, we just bought the software, it costs us a couple of hundred bucks a month. I know we’re not getting the full value out of it. I’d pay you to come figure out how to use it better.” I said, “That’s interesting,” and so I started playing around with that and quickly realized it was a great niche for me. I come from sales and marketing and running teams and email marketing and CRM, which is what these tools are. They are CRM plus email marketing plus e-commerce online and I was a salesforce admin a decade ago so I understood the space already but never really thought about taking it into. Marketing automation is a market that’s really starting to take off at the enterprise level so there’s a lot of opportunity for SMB, SMP always lags behind enterprise. I just thought a lot of opportunity. I got it and I really enjoyed it. The plan was always to, again, I want to build teams. I don’t like doing the solo thing. I like building teams, I enjoy that. I want to build a business, and so I always plan on going bigger and not being one thing but that time, I said, “Okay, well, I’ll be the Ontraport guy.” I talked to Uncle Schrammy and Schramko was right. The biggest thing I figured out was I was thinking about taking too long, so I’d always thought about adding Infusionsoft or Hubspot or whatever other tools and not being dependent on one tool only. He was just like, “Well, do it now,” and he was right. I should have, and so I did. I added Infusionsoft right away and then started with Infusionsoft customers and now, looking by the end of this year, we’ll probably add Hubspot as well. Really, it’s not about the tool. We’re vendor-agnostic. It’s more about getting value out of it, and my new catchphrase is “Automation. Software is not a strategy.” Buying a piece of software is not a strategy. You actually have to have your demand generation strategy set up, so what we do is we help them do that. We set up the tool for them, run it for them, and for most of our customers we also help them by creating content to feed into that tool, because that’s the thing that no one talks about. You got to buy Infusionsoft, you got to buy Ontraport, awesome. You automate your emails, you created this nice, long, tricky campaigns. Well, you have to write all the email content. You have to write that landing page content. You have to write that opt-in content. All that has to be written, and most of my customers are B2B businesses and they’re not copywriters. They’re not content writers. They’re not great at it, so they’re willing to pay someone to do it for them. John:Okay. Nice, man. Well, tell me. This is a great entry point into this idea of the 3 campaigns every business should have. I’m feeling a bit guilty, looking at this list because I certainly don’t have these 3 signatures. I have always been this great Autoresponder Guy with words just keep sending emails and it works, but you’re talking about a more nuanced approach and this is something you can do if you have Office Autopilot or Infusionsoft. Let’s start there, man. Tell me about these 3 campaigns. Give me a quick overview and then we’ll start with campaign number 1. Damian:Okay, sure. I’ll premise it by saying this: to me, email marketing is by far the most powerful marketing tool available right now. It is essentially, they said copywriting was salesmanship was print. Well, email marketing is that. It’s the ability to be able to one to many sell. You’d be able to sell your products, sell your services, sell yourself, sell your ideas, whatever. I think it’s very powerful and it’s the basis of almost all online marketing. In saying that, though, I say the litmus test for what you say to someone should be, in marketing we talk about personas. Deciding who that person is, what do they look like, what are their hopes and fears and dreams and pains. How do you talk to them differently? I say, imagine you’ve got this person across the table. If you were talking to them in real life about their problems and what you can do for them, will you talk to them differently based on what market segment they’re in, what kind of customer they were, how they bought, that sort of thing? If the answer is yes, then you want to talk to them differently. The way I do this is [inaudible 0:16:26] 3 campaigns. The first is a lead nurture campaign. This is what most people do with their autoresponder today. This is the idea of a long-term drip to build a relationship with them so they get to know and trust you. The second is a sales funnel campaign. This is for someone you’re actually engaging with and starting to really think about doing business with. The third is testimonial / referral campaign. That’s for someone that’s actually become a customer of yours. If you think about it, would you talk to a prospect, differently talk to just some unwatched person on the Internet, different than someone who’s actually giving you money? Of course you would. The way you talk to those people differently is you create a campaign for each of them. John:Okay. I like it. I like it. I talked a lot about my sequence in the podcast and all the stuff that I do is that like the empathies key. If you just have one email sequence, you don’t really have much empathy with them, especially if you’re sending that build no matter what stage of the buying cycle they’re at. It’s thinking that within a sales … There’s so many ways to look at this. You have like a sales funnel diagram, you could have almost like a pie chart thing and look at where, which phase, look at the cycle thing like a big circle and which stage people are in. There’s all different ways to phrase it up but if they’re in different stages, they really have different needs, in terms of the way you need to talk to them. The offers you need to make to them. I like this. Damian:Yeah, that’s the magic word there, John. You’re right. It’s all about the buying stage. At a generic level, and every business is different blah blah blah, but at a generic level there’s essentially 4 buying stages. The first buying stage is unaware, so either they’re unaware they have a problem or they’re unaware that there’s a solution to a problem they know they have. The second stage is some level of information gathering. They’re doing investigation. Now they know there’s a problem they know there’s a possible solution, they’re investigating possible solutions. The third stage is comparison. They’re comparing you versus 2 or 3 of your competitors or 2 or 3 other ways of doing it. The third is actually the sale and post-sale management.  The way you talk to people in those sales stages, you’re absolutely right, is different and this is what most people get wrong about content, would be that blogging or podcasting or email marketing, is they just do this one size fits all kind of thing, but the reality is when you’re unaware, your content is all about pain agitation. It’s all about poking them in the eye. Let them know that there is a problem. A lot of times unaware means they don’t know they’ve got a problem, so let them know they’ve got a problem. It’s higher level, it’s “top of funnel,” it’s more motion-based. The second, we start looking at an investigation. Well, now they want to start thinking about what opportunities are out there. Well, now the content needs to be more about what you do and how you do it. Then we talk about comparison, now you’re talking about, now you really want to get really technical. Now it’s about case studies, now you want success stories, now you want to start helping them imagine themselves with your solution so start showing them other people that made that solution and do it, but it gets more technical with more depth and it’s usually longer.  Then the last is once they’re on board is say, okay, reminding them that they made a good decision, making sure they’re getting the most value out of the purchase they made with you, and then also helping them to get, help you get more customers. That content is vastly different, and so the way you want to talk to them is vastly different. John:Okay. Well, let’s start with this lead nurturing thing. Damian:Sure. John:Aside from it just being content, are you talking about giving them a crash course, give them links to blog posts, the podcast, or is there a specific … Is it just anything and everything about content, no pitching, or is there a specific strategy? Damian:No, no. Don’t get me wrong — I’m all about the pitch. The pitch changes, so lead nurturing is exactly what it sounds like. This is someone … I essentially break people down to 3 different categories. You’re a suspect, you’re a prospect, or you’re a client or customer. A suspect means someone that meets your criteria, so they’re a possible user of your product or service. A prospect is someone that meets your criteria but has also taken some specific actions towards buying from you, and then a client is obviously someone that’s actually bought from you. Your lead nurturing is for your suspects. This will be your traditional autoresponder. Someone’s come to your website, they’ve checked out some of your content, they like what they see, they’ve opted on to your list. Now, whether whatever you opt in, whatever you’re using for your lead magnet, whatever your opt in is — a crash course or just more information, whatever — the idea is that they’re not ready. Not only are they not ready to buy from you yet, they’re not even really ready to get serious about talking to you yet. But you don’t want to let them go. This is your traditional drip sequence. What you want to do here is you want to demonstrate authority. You want to demonstrate expertise. You want to keep them warm while they’re making their decision. They’re just a very early sales stage. They’re either unaware or they’re in an investigating stage, so they’re not really ready to start thinking about buying yet. They’re gathering data, so what you want to give them is you want to just keep them happy. Show them that you are knowledgeable about the industry you’re in, show them, give them some food for thought, give them some kernels of wisdom, and at much higher level … Empathy is a great word here. It’s a much softer thing. Now I would say you don’t want to pitch your product or service, possibly, and I talk predominantly, most of my customers are B2B companies but for, if you’re doing high value services of any kind, or products of any kind, I think you don’t want to go for the close right away. The close you want to go for is move them into your sales funnel. Like in my business, what I want is I want to get someone on a phone call. I charge anywhere from a thousand dollars to 5 thousand dollars a month, recurring. A new customer is worth anywhere from 5 to 50 thousand dollars to my business. That’s a lot of money, so that’s worth me getting on a phone call with them. Also, that’s a lot of money for someone to spend so generally, you’ve got to do more than just send them to a sales page. They want to get some personal touch. In my lead nurturing funnel, what I want to do is I want to drive them to an appointment. My close, my “sale” is an appointment, it’s not an order, during the lead nurturing funnel. Once I get that sale and moving them to an appointment, then I would move them to the second campaign, which is just sales funnel. Now this is definitely different for every business. John:Let’s stop right there. You’re doing lead nurturing, [inaudible 0:22:34] that sequence, I’m getting nurtured, and I’m like, “All right, I want to talk to Damian.” I talk to you and then what you’re saying that happens, at the end of that call, I haven’t made a decision yet and then you send me to sales funnel sequence? Damian:Well, yeah. It can be even trickier if you start using cool software. What happens is I’ll drive you … My call to action on my lead nurturing will be go to this schedule once link and schedule an appointment with me. What happens is, once you’ve done that, in Infusionsoft, it’ll actually create you as a … [inaudible 0:23:04] lead nurturing series, but it’ll change your tag from a suspect to a prospect. Then once you’re a prospect, it’s actually going to start the emails right then. You’re going to get an email from me saying, “Hey, we’ve got an upcoming call to discuss your business blah blah blah. Here’s a few things you should be thinking about before our call. Here’s a few questions you should answer before we even get on the phone call.” Now, I’m doing the Jay Abraham thing of I’m giving you some hurdles to jump through, so I’m giving you homework before we even talk for the first time. Then we’ll get on the call, and then what happens is once we’re on the call, depending on the call, there’s another tag that’s created called consultation requested and then consultation completed. Once we’ve completed the call, if I assign that tag to you, you’re going to a new part of the sequence which is did I send you a proposal? Did you get a proposal to buy something? If so, then you get follow up emails 3 days after the proposal, a week after the proposal, 14 days after the proposal, and then on the 21st day after the proposal, you get my kind of see you later email, which is a little bit of reverse psychology which is why I send an email saying, “Hey, we’re not a great fit, probably. I haven’t heard back from you. We’re not moving forward. Probably not a great fit. Most of my customers become customers within the first 3 weeks of us talking. No problem, it’s okay. We’re not a great fit for everybody. I’m going to go ahead and take you off my follow up list. Have a great time. If you ever want to get back to us, it’s easy.” What happens here is people say, “No, no. Don’t take me off your list. Don’t take me off your list.” It’s a great piece of, that’s the sales funnel. Now that definitely changes business to business but what it is essentially is that now, someone’s engaged. They’ve put more effort into you so you put more effort into them. They’ve requested more information, they’ve requested a proposal, a quote. They’ve requested an appointment. John:But let’s say they, so they get on this call with you. Let’s say they clicked on the link where they schedule a meeting by this meeting one thing and then you send them an email saying, “Hey, we got a call next week. Before we get on the call, here are a couple of things I need you to do. If I was the prospect there, I could be like, “Well, I’m not going to do anything. I’m just going to get on a phone call in a few days’ time.” Damian:That’s fine. It doesn’t matter. All I’m doing is I’m just prepping for it all, so I’m not asking you to go out and write a doctoral thesis on something. I’m just saying, the questions are like, “What are your goals this year on your business? What are your medium to long-term goals for your business? What’s your biggest marketing issue?” These are things you can answer right away so you don’t actually have to do anything. What I’m doing is I’m just planting the seed for our conversation, because once we’re on the phone call, I don’t really pitch on the phone call. The phone call is all about you, so once I get you on the  phone call with me, what I’m going to do is I’m going to spend 10 to 15 minutes understanding your business better and asking 10 questions I ask about your business and the rest of it. Then the second part of our phone call is I’m actually going to give you a few ideas. I’m going to say, “Look, I actually went and checked out Drop Dead Copy, and here’s … I like when you’re doing this.” Give them what I call the insult sandwich. “I like you’re doing this, I think you’re making a mistake here, I also like you doing this.” It’s easier to take my mistake thing. The mistake thing is I’ll say like things along the lines of, “I think your call to action on your opt in could be stronger,” or, “You’re asking for too many fields of data for someone to sign up on your list,” or, “You don’t have enough opt in. You need an opt in on every page [inaudible 0:26:14]” or, “You’ve got too many social media icons and when I click it, it takes me to that page. That should open a new window.” Basically, I do a small conversionary optimization clinic for about 10 minutes with them, and the idea here is give to get. The [inaudible 0:26:27] jab, jab, jab, hook thing, but what it really is is just it demonstrated my expertise. It demonstrates my authority, but also it does that magical thing of reciprocity. Now what I’ve done is I’ve spent 10, 15 minutes talking about your business, 10 to 15 minutes talking about ways you could improve your business for free, and then 99 times out of 100, that prospect says to me, “Well, hey, how about we talk about your business now.” Now they’re asking me about my offer rather than me having to pitch my offer, which is just a much easier way to en gage with them.  Also what it does is I’m qualifying them on that call. I would say that 1 out of 4 people I talk to aren’t a good fit for my business. Sometimes 2 out of 5 aren’t a good fit for my business just because they’re not big enough, they’re not making enough money, they’re dreamers. My business, I mean, the software alone is $300 a month, then you got to pay me an additional thousand dollars a month, so if you’re just thinking about what your business is going to be, we’re probably not a good fit so you need to be making money, and I’d be better helping people making a hundred grand make 5 hundred grand is my business, not people making zero make 50 grand. I’m figuring that out in that phone call and sometimes I don’t even offer at the end because they’re not a good fit. If they are a good fit, generally ask me what we can do together, I talk about it a little bit, if it looks like we’re a good fit, then I will send them a proposal. John:Nice, man. I like it, I like it. Then, let’s say they sign up because you did lead nurturing, done your sales funnel so they’ve got the emails, they’ve done the phone call and I’m like, “All right. I’m in,” you sign them up, you do the PayPal, you do the payment, you do all that sort of stuff and then you’re saying that you put them onto to the … it’s almost like the customer nurturing sequence but you’re calling it the testimonial referral sequence. What’s that? Damian:Yeah. This is different. Most people do some sort of onboarding sequence. They say once you become a customer, they help you keep … That’s fine, but what no one does is your best sales people in the world are your happy, new clients. They get that warm, new car smell, they’re all excited, they’re envisioning this future together of the work you’re going to do, so what you want to do is you want to keep them happy, obviously, especially in a retention business like I am. You want to keep them on board, but also you want them to help you sell. You want to help them realize, “Hey, part of the reason we could deliver such great value to you, such great service to you, is we don’t spend 80% of our time out there looking for new business. We spend 80% of our time working with our customers. The way we can do that is is we ask our customers to help us find new customers.” Then you walk them through.  The thing you will get wrong about referrals is they just for … Actually, the biggest thing is no one ask for referrals. Like they feel uncomfortable. They don’t ask for them, so automating that takes that pain away. Doesn’t feel so bad. The second thing people don’t do is even if they do ask for referrals, they ask for them poorly. They ask for referrals. No one is going to give you a referral, but what you do is you help them, you make it easy on them. Remember, it’s all about them, so you want to make them feel warm and fuzzy, let them feel that it’s reciprocal, but also make it easy. “Hey, John. Here’s why we think you’re going to be a great customer, because you fit X, Y, and Z with us. Other companies who would be a great fit for us would look like this too. [inaudible 0:29:43] They’d be a service business or they’d be a B2B software company. They’re doing at least $5,000 a month in revenue, they’re looking for ways to increase, they don’t consider themselves top of the world marketers, they want to focus on serving their customers, not on finding new ones.  Paint a picture for them of who your ideal prospect would be and then ask them and, literally, in the email, have 1, 2, 3 empty spaces. Can you think of 3 people that I should reach out and say that you introduced me to them. Then part of that campaign also is testimonials. That’s another thing we don’t do, we don’t do enough social selling, and social proof is very powerful. Instead of doing that, you say, you ask for a testimonial and, again, what we get wrong with testimonials is 1, we don’t ask for them or 2, when we ask for them, we ask for them poorly. The best way to do it is to actually ask them questions. “Hey, can we just ask you a quick question? Why did you end up choosing us? What did you think this solution was going to do for you? Has it delivered upon that?” Just make it simple for them to answer, and they just reply to the email- John:That’s fantastic advice. I’ve never heard that before, but that’s fantastic. When you start saying that, I think I’ve done it accidentally before with people and sometimes I’ll come back with a whole paragraph or a whole 300 or 400 word email and there’s so much golden nuggets in there that you can just drop into your sales pitch. Damian:That’s exactly it, and that’s what I do. The best testimonials are the ones you help your customers right, so you help them write by asking them probing questions. Getting them to answer your probing questions and then when you put it all together you say, “Hey, Bob. I’d love you to look at this. I want to put this on a website,” which everyone loves. Everyone loves the idea of them being published on your website. This is what I’m going to put, this is the information you’ve given me, I’ll just put it all together and put quotation marks around it. Are you okay with this? He’s going to say yes, and then you put it out there and boom! You’ve got your customers selling for you. John:That’s awesome. I love it. All right, let’s wrap it up here [inaudible 0:31:34] before we go, though, give people … I think a few people who are listening here right now, they’re going to want to go and at least check out your sequence and I’m sure some of them are also going to be interested in signing up. Let me get on the sales call and just see how you do the sales call. Damian:Yeah, so the easiest way to find me is linchpin.net. That’s linchpin.net. I’m active on Twitter, @damianthompson, go to the website. I got opt in boxes everywhere so you can either opt in to get on the list or you can request a call on our about page. Either way, I look forward to talking to people via email or on a Skype call. John:Boom! Cool, man. I’ll have those links in the show at the McMethod.com. Let’s get the links there. Thanks for coming on, man. Damian:Cheers, mate! The post Episode #58 – Damian Thompson on The 3 Email Marketing Campaigns Every Business Should Have appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


20 May 2014

Rank #3

Podcast cover

Episode #200 – James Schramko On Super Fast Five-Year Update. Evolved Email Strategy You Can Use Now

It has been five years since James was last on the show. After recently catching up with John on his own podcast, he’s here to share what’s working now. You can find James revealing other juicy business ideas on Episodes #4 and #47 (worth a listen for sure). Since then, he has sold his SEO business. Sold his website design business. He’s ramped up his coaching business, wrote a book, and now works less and makes more cash-eesh. He’s employing some new tools. After coaching Ryan Levesque of ASK Method fame through his huge growth phase… James understood the value of segmentation. He’s employing segments right at the top of his funnel and it has made everything so much more efficient and valuable… for both his clients and himself. Super relevant. The right support at the right time wherever business owners are on their journey. Email wise, he’s been focusing on list health. Deliverability and reputation. And killer email copywriting. Listen to how he’s grown. What he’s changed to make everything more effective and efficient. In doing so he has found the sweet spot in his business. The people he can get the best results for and are easy to work with. James also talks about the effect his first, best-selling book has had on his business. And what he’ll spill in his upcoming second book. You should be able to take this quick, action-packed episode… and make money with it immediately. It’s that good. In this episode, you’ll discover: Should you be doing live events for your business? James gives two powerful reasons you can’t do without. The game-changing effect James’ first book has had on his business. Email secrets of the P.S. and Dean Jackson’s “super signature”. Are your offers converting? The ways James is segmenting people entering his business. How he makes sure people see only what will help them now. One big email metric James looks at which always leads to more sales month after month. Mentioned: James Schramko’s Super Fast Business James’ “Work Less, Make More” book John McIntyre on James’ SuperFast Business Podcast David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey, everybody we’re back for another edition of the podcast and today we have a very special guest, he’s actually been on two previous times – episodes number 4 and 47, he’s a fan favorite of our audience and I’m sure you’re going to like what he had to say today because we’re bringing it back full circle as he was last on the show quite a few years ago as it turns out and James Schramko is back! James, welcome to the show… James Schramko: Hey, it’s really good to be back I was just catching up with John on my own podcast and we thought it would be fun to bridge our little five-year gap since the last time I was here or the time before that. Certainly a lot… David Allan: Yeah…I think this is really going to be exciting today because we’re going to talk about…dun…dun…dunnnn…email marketing, which is what this podcast is really about and you’re going to share something you’re doing with your own business and we’re going to bring it down to the technical side, we’re going to bring it down to what the emails actually contain – if you will divulge – and we’re just going to get into this right away. If people want to learn more about James we’re going to provide that near the end of the show but if you go back to the two earlier episodes you will hear more of his life story and what he offers through his SuperFast Business…business. James… let’s talk some email. Where do you want to start? This about you and what you want to share with our audience so where do you want to start? The post Episode #200 – James Schramko On Super Fast Five-Year Update. Evolved Email Strategy You Can Use Now appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


31 Jul 2018

Rank #4

Most Popular Podcasts

Podcast cover

Episode #52 – Michael Silk On How to Gain Extreme Empathy In Your Market

Here’s the problem with your business. Maybe you can rattle off 15 product features… *Yawn.* You might even have the writing chops to “re-frame” those features as benefits… …but here’s what you’re missing: Your customers don’t give a damn. Truth is – Your most profitable customers ONLY care about one or two problems your product solves. Sell the wrong benefit… ...and your sales will suffer. Key in on the RIGHT benefit – …and you’ll see geometric increases in your revenue. In this episode – Veteran copywriter Michael Silk returns to dish on empathy: The 7-letter word that underlies ALL marketing. Michael joined us back on Episode 42 – …and shared his seductive F.U.N. formula to write emails that sell. (That episode here: www.themcmethod.com/42). Today – You’ll discover how to read your customers’ minds. Study this process… …use it to dial in your email marketing… …and enjoy higher conversions than you thought possible. In this episode, you’ll discover: how to dig into your market and figure out what prospects REALLY want how to profit more…by making fun of your competitors  why copywriting “formulas” are NOT the beez-kneez when it comes to sales the make-or-break appeal that’s at the front of your customer’s mind a disgusting “stomach ulcer” lesson in solving REAL pain points one trick your competitors are doing to get a leg up on you why EMPATHY is king Mentioned: Michaelsilkconsulting dot com – Michael’s site Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Raw transcript: Download PDF transcript here. John: It’s John McIntyre here, The Autoresponder Guy. I’m here with a guest who’s been on the podcast before. His name is Michael Silk. He originally came on to talk about how he wrote F.U.N. emails for a bunch of different companies. One of them was doing a high seven to eight figures. That podcast episode was all about these fun emails which was fun, unusual, and they get noticed. If you want to check that out, you can go to themcmethod.com/42. Originally, we had … On that episode you can get an intro or a background on who Michael is and what he does. He is a copywriter; a damn good one. He has some really interesting ideas, but today instead of going into formulas … We talked a bit about this before the call. The idea of fun, that’s a bit of a formula. Today I wanted to talk a bit about why formulas aren’t … They’re just not everything you need. There’s a little bit more. We’ll get into that. We are going to talk about a few different things. This is more of a free-flowing podcast. I’ve done a few of these in the past and I have no idea where they are going to end up, so we’re just going to have some fun. How you doing today, Michael? Michael: I’m very good. Thanks, John. Yeah, thank you. John: Good to have you back. Michael: Yeah, good to be on. Like you, we’ll just see where this podcast goes and I’m sure some good ideas will come out it and bring a lot of value to it. John: Sounds good. Take 2. Second time lucky, right? So this is … This is our second take, second attempt at this podcast. This doesn’t happen too often but sometimes you’ve got to hit the stop button, delete it, and start again. Fingers crossed. ‘ Let’s talk about these formulas. Just before I hit the record button, we were talking about how a lot of people are out there teach formulas. There’s nothing wrong with formulas, but you made an interesting point about why … basically why you don’t want to talk too much about formulas. You think are some more important things. Can you rap on that for a little bit? Michael: Yeah. First of all, I know your podcast is mostly directed to people writing email copy. I should just mention that although I do write email copy I don’t see myself through the lens of just an email-marketing copywriter. I write sales letters. I do write email copy. I also write video sales letters. I come to the conversation as it were with more of an overall perspective. First off, off the bat, I’m not dissing any formulas. I gave you that fun formula for our last podcast and all of those are useful. What’s I think … What you wanted to talk about today was this … I think there’s a couple of things that perhaps go a little bit deeper than formulas. You can … There are so many different sales formulas out there. Probably most people are familiar with the formula. Then there’s the problem agitation solution. There is lots of different markets and copywriters, they’ve all got their own take on those. All of them are useful. Perhaps what’s more useful is getting the right appeal to the market. If I can just explain this with an example. John: Go for it. Michael: There was … This is not based on myself but it is based on another copywriter I know of.  He was doing some work for some mortgage brokers, selling to mortgage brokers I believe it was. Now let’s say that this copywriter had followed the very best formula out there. Some copywriters come up with the de facto sales formula. He had followed it to a T.  In his sales letter, he covered all of those elements, the components of that de facto formula that is the very best sales formula out there. He wrote to those … His target market was the mortgage brokers. And he … It was all about getting more clients. What he found is that when he mentioned getting more clients the sales promotion didn’t ever do as well as when he mentioned getting referrals. Every time he put in his marketing promotions about getting referrals, the response spiked up. That is all that these mortgage brokers were interested in was referrals. Do you get what I’m saying there? The appeal was the referrals. He could mention getting more clients. He could mention getting paid higher fees. He could mention taking more time off. He could mention having more practices and so on and so forth, but all of that paled into comparison in terms of response compared to when he mentioned getting referrals. John: Okay, so what you’re saying is- Michael: It’s all about  the appeal. John: Right, so you could take a … the best sales letter formula in the world and you could fit any of the appeals in that marketplace into that sales letter. What you’re saying is that, that doesn’t actually matter. You could have the best formula in the world but the formula is beside the point. What makes it the sales letter convert is not the formula or the structure so much as the understanding that the key benefit … This is one thing that I’ve tried to stress before is that people talk about benefits. That you should just go and write a list of benefits for the product, but it’s just not about benefits. It’s about tapping into the right benefits. What we’re talking about here, benefit or appeal in that the benefit is like you said, they are going to get more referrals. Are they going to get more clients? Are they going to have more time off? The key thing is what benefit do they actually care about. What appeal is actually in the front of their minds when they think about their problem? Michael: Absolutely. It’s the make or break thing. Again, not to say that the sales formulas are not important. They have their place. I’m just saying that there is deeper stuff to look at. John: How would … I talked about this a lot in my emails and my … this idea that you need to have empathy and without empathy even the … without empathy, without really understanding what your, what the marketplace wants, the best copy in the world won’t save you. I’ve talked about that with my audience, things like surveys, and going to Amazon, and things like that. What specific things do you do to figure out the appear when you’re writing for yourself or you’re writing for a client? Are there any go-to tactics or strategies? Or do you sit down and visualize yourself in a chair opposite your prospect? How do you do it? Michael: Again, it would be nice to give a cookie-cutter answer. Unfortunately, life is not always that simple. I think a lot of it for myself, to comes from conversing with the clients. They often got a more of a better understanding of the type of person that … the core clients as it were or their core customers. They have a better understanding with what they want. I’ll give you an example of that. I write for a company that is involved in the hypnosis, hypnotherapy world. I write a promotion for them that’s, I don’t mind saying, didn’t work. It worked but it didn’t work to the extent that we were hoping it did. I wrote the promotion for … it was very much aimed at people that, hypnotherapists and how to get more clients. A lot of their customer base, they don’t actually want to be hypnotherapists. They just want to be able to do a lot of cool stuff with hypnosis. There was a mismatch, you see. It wasn’t until we went back and conversed more with the client … It was like, ah, you know, this letter would have worked in another arena perhaps better than it did to their customer base. John: When someone is sitting down to write an email or a sales letter or any sort of promotion or advertisement, the important thing is not so much the writing. Not being the best writer in the world but having the greatest understanding of the prospect. It’s like … I’ve met plenty of people … it’s funny, a couple of my friends in this industry find this funny as well. When you hear about someone or meet someone and they’ve never studied marketing, they’ve never sat down and written out sales letters by hand, they’ve never read any books or anything by Gary Halbert or any of these guys. They don’t really know much about marketing yet they have a business that’s just raging. They are crushing it. While they may not understand marketing in the whole direct-response fashion, what they do understand is that … They have a very intimate understanding of what the marketplace wants. That gives them almost a huge, it’s surprising, but a huge advantage over everyone else. Sometimes I feel like me or like some of my friends that where we put so much emphasis on the marketing side of it and being a good copywriter when it seems like almost all of the battle is really just understanding what this main appeal is. What’s the main thing that people want? Michael: If you take a step back from it, John, and I think it’s good advice for me as well and it’s good advice for everybody. From the customer’s point-of-view, from the buyer’s point-of-view, prospects, how much do they understand about the marketing side of it? Probably not anything. They … What I’m saying is they couldn’t care less if you got the best marketing system in place or you follow the very best sales formula. If you’re not talking to them, if you’re not communicating or connecting with them at the level that they resonate with, that’s all they care about. John: It’s a bit like a kids. You could say kids are very fantastic sales girls and boys in that they know their parents so well that when they want to manipulate their parents to give them what they want, it just comes intuitively to them. They will say stuff to their parents that just make the parents crumble. They’ve never been trained. No one has ever taught them how to be good at this. What they do understand is exactly what is important to them and their mother and dad. That allows them to lead, you could say manipulate, but really just lead their mom and a dad around. Sell them on doing something or not doing something. It’s almost like if you can have the magical eye to see what your prospects really wants, what the marketplace really, really wants, don’t even need to worry too much about having the best copy in the world. Michael: Absolutely. People want to feel that you’re for real as well. They want to have an understanding that you’ve got their best interests at heart. All of that is important. Another area that I think is important, John, that is what I call cause-marketing. I don’t mean attaching your marketing to a cause as in a charity or a fund-raising event or you know. Often that is denoted as cause-marketing. What I mean is coming up and finding the new or the hidden cause behind the problem that the market has. I think instead of me rapping on and trying to explain this … If I give some examples, I think it will become very clear. If you can find the new … And when I say new it maybe the unknown cause. It may not actually be the new cause but it may be a cause behind their problem that they’ve not been aware of. If you can bring them that to their attention and bring clarity around that, then that is also very powerful and can create some sales breakthroughs in and of itself. Again, all of these principles … I prefer to talk about them as principles as opposed to formulas, can be applied to email marketing or more traditional sales letters or website copy or even conversations, however you communicate with your market. In any case, here is some examples of cause, what I mean by cause-marketing. It used to be universally believed that stomach ulcers were caused by excess intestinal acid. Most of the products sold helped alleviate stomach ulcers were based on the concept, on the precept, that they were going to reduce stomach acid. It was then discovered that stomach ulcers are in fact caused by too much of the wrong type of bacteria. The companies selling remedies to alleviate stomach ulcers, if they can educate and bring clarity to the situation and say, hey, your stomach ulcers are not caused by too much stomach acid but actually caused by intestinal, the wrong type of intestinal bacterial. The reason our product is so superior to all the other products on the market, because it actually targets the real underlying cause of stomach ulcers and blah, blah, blah and etc., etc., etc. Does that make sense? John: Absolutely. Michael: If you yourself or anyone listening had a stomach ulcer and they’ve been trying all of these different tablets and … I don’t’ even know what kind of things are that deal with that kind of stuff. If they’ve been dealing with everything and they’re going to the doctors and it’s all been about stomach acid and then all of a sudden they come across something that says, actually, it’s caused by stomach bacterial and this alleviates the problem by targeting the stomach bacteria, etc., etc., etc. it’s like, wow, why has nobody ever told me about that before? That’s the answer. If you can position your product or your solution as addressing that when nobody else is then it can give you a significant advantage in the sales marketplace. I’ll give you another example. It used to be, or pretty much still is, universally believed that cholesterol level is the most meaningful indicator of heart disease, whereas it’s becoming more common knowledge that the actual, real underlying cause and best indicator of heart disease is something called your blood homocystine level. If you can out with a product, a heart pill or whatever, that actually educates the reader into you being … Cholesterol is not where it’s at, it’s actually … You need to get your homocystine levels checked and this product will reduce those. Then again, you can create a significant sales advantage for yourselves. I’ll give you another example and this actually from a real example. There was a company, a maintenance supply company in the United States, the sales, utility, maintenance, goods to businesses … Things like kind of maintenance stuff from brooms to probably big industrial cleaners and everything like that. What was happening is that had accounts across the county with a number of businesses but they were losing a lot of those accounts because the businesses were going more locally to buy maintenance supply equipment as and when they needed it. The big, centralized maintenance company that had been supplying businesses all across the country started to lose a lot of business because the businesses could buy more locally and buy cheaper. they addressed this problem by … They were able to show … They were able to go back to the businesses and say, look, you closed your account with us, but they were able to demonstrate this in raw format that a company buying its items locally could actually buy those items locally a lot cheaper as and when they wanted to. But when they factored in all of the disruption costs, the buying costs, the storage costs, and what these companies were tending to do, the businesses were tending to do, is that if they needed to replace one item they tended … It’s human nature that you would buy three items just in case you got backup. They were actually spending more over the course of the year. They were able to buy the items more cheaply but they weren’t able to save money throughout the year. The big, centralized maintenance supply company was able to go back and demonstrate that they were actually causing themselves to spend more money. Now they’ve got a lot of these businesses coming back on board and reopening their accounts. Although they were able to buy the items cheaply, they didn’t have … They weren’t able to reduce their management costs of buying, if that makes sense. That’s a bit of a convoluted … John: Tell you what’s going on here. They can buy them for say $10 at the main-, the big maintenance national warehouse guys, but if they’re buying them from the local guys they can buy it for say $8 which is a cheaper price. Michael: Yeah. John: Then what’s the reason that they should go back to the big one? Michael: If they’re buying them $8 locally they can buy the item obviously cheaper. When they’ve got to factor in the time that it costs someone to actually to and make the purchase, to go and have the thing delivered, companies were tending to buy, if they’re going to buy one we may as well buy two or three so we’ve got backups in future. Then they’ve got storage costs that they’ve got to take care of. All of these ancillary quote-unquote “hidden costs” all of a sudden start adding up. Where they can by the item for say $8, it may in actual fact be costing them $15. John: Okay. Michael: The big centralized company was able to go back and show that actually what buying from them … From buying from independent stores, they were actually causing themselves to spend more money. John: Okay. Then they had a promotion that went out that basically explained what was really going on. Michael: Yeah. John: Then the people came back. Okay. To bring that back, this goes back to the idea of the cause. If you can see into the problem better than prospect can and explain it in a way that really, really makes sense, it’s going to connect with them. Michael: I think a big part of the job of a quote-unquote “copywriter” or however you want to label yourself up as or an email person or marketer is to bring clarity to your target audience. I think if you can be a source of clarity and … into what is for all of us a very cluttered world. There is so much information out there but if you can bring clarity around their situation and their problem, they immediately identify with you as somebody as having the solution for them. That comes back again to you mentioned the word empathy. How do you in practicality demonstrate empathy? You could be sitting where you are writing your promotion, feeling very emphatic for your target market, but how does that actually transfer across to them? If you can bring clarity to the situation, all of a sudden you’ve already provided a service to them. John: It’s a bit like when you have a problem, a personal problem sometimes, and it helps to go and talk to a really good friend about it. You sit down, you go out with your friend for coffee, and you start talking. You just go into event mode where you talk your way through the whole problem. Sometimes the friend just listens, sometimes the friend is able to add a bit of perspective, but what you really walk away with from that conversation is clarity. It’s the hard part when you have problems. When I … If I’m going about my day and I’m used to having a lot of energy, which is pretty typical, some days, there’s a day where I can’t get out of bed or I crash and burn at 3pm, it makes me really frustrated unless I know what’s making me tired. If I go, hang on, I ate a plate of rice over lunch, that’s going to be it. All of a sudden there is no need to worry about it. When I don’t know what’s going on or maybe I thought it was the plate of rice and then I tried … then I get rid of the plate of rice at lunch but it still keeps happening. I’m frustrated and it’s annoying. When I finally figure out what’s going on, in comes that clarity. I can relax now. Michael: Yes, you’ve still got the problem. Some to me, yes, is burn a bit yesterday afternoon. My heart felt really e … Two days before I did some really heavy leg-training work, weight training. I correlated it now but that really takes it out of me. It can kind of creep up on me. It doesn’t … Straight after the workout I feel really buzzed and alive. Then a day or two later it really … It’s just like you’re saying there. It’s like, ah, that’s the reason for that is that and now I don’t have to worry about it too much. John: If you could come in and explain to someone, basically give them clarity and what’s going on with problem, that’s going to build an enormous amount of trust it what you’re about and what you’re going to end up selling them Michael: But clarity in a way that it identifies as the real cause behind what’s happening. John: Not clarity for the sake of clarity. Clarity with a purpose. Michael: Yes. John: How would … An interesting topic would be how would, say I’m … This is a hard thing to think of. How would one go about finding or giving someone clarity? Let’s say you’re in marketing and you’re trying to sell something. You’ve got several competitors and you all seem to be saying the same thing more or less. Do you have to … It sounds like it’s worth spending quite a decent chunk of time as well as I’m trying to understand your prospect, trying to look for angles in the market that would give you a leg up on your competitors  if you could walk in and you could explain something that no one else has explained. That’s an interesting way of looking at it. If you could for a U. S. P. or a unique approach you could go in there and explain something that no one else is explaining. You might sell the same thing, but if you explain something that no one else has really touched on yet and it’s a bit of a paying point that’s going to be a big win. Michael: Absolutely. I’m just … This like … This is an area, John, that is, it’s not something that is a … it takes thinking but I think this what we’re discovering for this conversation. It’s not just a ready-made answer to everything. This is the kind of stuff that you have to cut a bit deeper with. Often times, there’s not ready-made answers like you can just pull out of a hat, and oh, I can used that read-made answer to this. It does take a bit of investigation and bit of introspective sometimes and thought into it and some time. You have to circle the desk as it were. I think … Here’s my take on it. Probably like you and probably like a lot of people listening to this recording or who will listen to it at some stage, if I read in a sales letter online sometimes it can have all the right elements to it but it still leaves me a bit cold. It’s saying all the right things. It’s just somehow I don’t just quite … sometimes I just quite put my finger on it. I can’t … It’s something just not resonating with me or something I just don’t feel comfortable parting with money for. It all sounds good but I don’t quite … This happened the other day actually. This brings to mind something the other day. There was a program, a selling system being sold by somebody who is quite well-known. They have a celebrity appeal as it were. They have a selling system that they are currently promoting. I watched … There wasn’t a letter for it, it was actually an interview webinar thing. I watched it all and I didn’t … It’s strange, it was almost like I wanted to buy it but then I didn’t feel comfortable buying it. There was something lacking. There was something … and I think you’re hearing I don’t know quite what it was. The more I think about it, I think what it was is that I didn’t understand the reason why it would work above and beyond any other system. I didn’t understand the mechanics of it. It was like … Going back if we tie this back into to where I was talking about the cause marketing or coming up with a quote-unquote “new cause behind the problem” that obviously can be quite difficult to do because sometimes there isn’t another known cause behind the problem. Everybody knows what the cause is. It’s universally accepted. It’s universally been proven or whatever. Everybody knows what the underlying cause of the problem is. I’m trying to think of an example off the top of my head and I can’t quite. You get what I’m saying? There is no new cause you can come up with. What you can do is that you can illuminate on what you’re selling. You can go into … You can get somebody to … Here’s where I’m going with this, you want somebody to conceptually understand why the thing that you have actually works. John: Okay. Michael: For example, let me try and give an example because otherwise I’m talking very surface-level. Let’s say, for example … What should we talk about, John? John: I’m thinking- Michael: Let’s say, let’s say, okay … for the gym. Somebody wants to pull a muscle at the gym. There are so many different supplements out there … protein shakes and muscle-building supplements and so on and so forth. They, nearly all of them will take basically the message is, take this and you will gain x-amount of muscle. John: Right, right. Michael: In x-amount of days. John: I see where you’re going with this. Michael: What really … Personally what I would want to say is show me why it would work. Don’t just tell me that it will … Don’t just … I think this goes back to you saying before about the benefits … keep … okay so you’re going to get more muscle and you’re going to look good and blah, blah, blah, and you can reduce your fat and so on and so forth. You can train better and you can have more energy. All of those … All of that is a paid-end stuff. All of that is, yes I want all that. I want it but I may not necessarily be comfortable buying it because I don’t quite believe, I don’t’ quite have the conceptual understanding, the clarity of why it would it. If I take this, what’s it going to do on my …? If somebody can come along and communicate that. Not necessarily in a very anatomical, biological way but in a way that perhaps uses analogies and so on and so forth. It’s like you can paint a picture into someone’s mind. Oh, it get why that works now. I want the benefits. I now understand why it would work. I understand what causes it to work. I now feel comfortable buying it. You’ve got this emotional side just to want those benefits but the logical side is like … John: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I can think of a few different examples. One, one is that a couple of weeks ago I saw some ads popping up on Facebook for another make-money-online product. It was a very niche one but still very much a make-money-online. It looked the same, the way they all look. Very — claims. Very make x-amount of dollars in x-amount of time and all that sort of stuff. I read it for a bit. I always scan those things just to see what is going on, but I didn’t buy it. Obviously, I want that, I want to make $10,000,000 in an hour and all that sort of stuff. That’s not going to happen. You can’t really … You haven’t told me how it’s really going to do it. Then I spoke to a friend today who has actually … He told them about not so much the product but he explained that he was using a strategy to make money. Then  he told me about the product. He told me about how it all worked, how he was making money. I was like, all right, that all makes sense. That’s a great explanation. Then I … and then he mentioned the product that I had seen a couple of weeks ago. Finally, by that point, I knew what the product was offering. Then from him I had the explanation of why the product worked. Then I went and bought the product because now you can back up those claims, knowing how you’re going to achieve those claims. Michael: That’s an excellent example. He conceptually understood the mechanics behind it, mechanics that would make it work. John: Yeah. This is like when you go, you sound like you’ll get a six-pack or you’ll lose x-amount of weight or anything like that. When you can explain it that there is some unknown recently discovered mechanism within the body that when you ingest 100 mg of RHEA and Vitamin D 30 minutes prior to be that has an effect on … who knows, your digestive system blah, blah, blah. He explained the whole scientific mechanism and layman’s terms in a way that’s very easy to understand. Perhaps you explain it like a classic way. You put a chain on the … I’m coming up with stuff now. Michael: You’re doing a much better job … You’re doing a much better job than me, John. John: Yeah, you would take something, give it a good explanation, and then all of a sudden it’s so much more believable. I’ve had fun with friends out … Sometimes we’ve been out drinking and I’ll start off a story. A couple of my friends, they know what I do, they know that I write stories like this for a living. I’ll start telling a story. There might be a few people there that might not know what I do and I’ll tell a story about what, about something. I know that by telling the story and almost … speaking with a very authoritative tone as though the claim or the result is guaranteed and here is how it works. Then you just explain it with a very serious voice and make it interesting on why x is true. Most people will believe it. They start going, ah, how did they, ah. They really … They’ve got no idea whether to believe you or not. It’s absolutely incredible. Even if the explanation is absolutely crazy, just the mere fact that you have an explanation seems to bolster their belief big time. Michael: Yeah, and it comes back to that … What Jay Abraham was saying, you know if you want to sign a secretly, silently begging to be led. Again, it’s a way of emphasizing leadership and authority. You don’t have to … It’s not like banging the drums kind of authority. It’s not talking down to anyone. It’s demonstrating authority by the way that you’re able to come into a situation. Again, on account of all of these things, the sound like they’re all different separate techniques but they’re not. They all fit … They all weave together. Again, by being able to demonstrate this authority and this, and the mechanics behind why something would work brings us back into the area of clarity. You proved clarity to the situation again. I think what ideally in sales everybody … The holy grail is always, is everybody to say yes to what you’re saying all the time. I think actually what you want is, yes, because ultimately you would like someone to say yes to buying something from you. I think actually it’s more profound to have actually somebody say, ah, I’ve never actually thought about it like that before. Like, huh, it’s like that. Here’s what’s coming to mind. Instead of just relaying information to somebody to make the sales, make the sale, you’re communicating in such a way that the person is getting insight. When they have their own insight into what’s being said, they feel very much drawn to you and very much drawn to the mission and very much drawn to the products. It’s like their internal idea. It’s like I’ve discovered this and nobody else knows this. Ah, I put A and B together in my own mind. Does that make sense? John: You trigger, you make people think differently about something. You give them a new perspective. Some people say to say what no one else is saying. Go into an industry and start calling … don’t’ call people out by being a douche bag but its say stuff in a way that no one else is saying. Try and talk about stuff that no one else is talking about. I’ve seen this … You can see this with copywriting and I saw it recently with something completely different. There is a site out there that sells stock videos. That’s where you might get a video of, any of those videos you might have seen in an advertisement on television. This is the sort of company that does it. Now they created an ad for their website which actually poked fun … Yeah, it was basically a, about … What was it? It was an ad where they have different words on the screen like vision and truth and progress and then they have an image of a train in the background. The writer was just reading out the … I guess explaining the mechanism of, ah, so we’re trying to inspire people so we’re going to use forward-thinking words like progress and like I said vision and positivity. These flash up where there’s an image on the, in the video of someone reaching their hands to the sky on top of a mountain with sunflowers all around. The whole video was just poking fun at how companies use these stock videos to try and make a point and present themselves as some world changing company. They are saying something that no one else is saying. It’s like poking fun at all the corporate companies. When you watch it, you can’t help but think differently about the whole thing. All of a sudden, oh, yeah, that’s totally rad. Aha, I see what they’re doing. That kind of thing. Michael: Yeah. John: The aura effect. We’re right on-time here. Before we go, I give people a heads-up about where they can find you if they want to learn more or how I even used to work with you. What is the best place for them to go? Michael: I have a website where I hang out online which is my name, so it’s michaelsilkconsulting.com. John: Consulting. Michael: Consulting I N G dot com. Yeah. John: Michaelsilkconsulting.com. That will be in the show notes at theMcMethod.com/podcast and any other links to anything else we mentioned in this show. Michael, thanks for coming on again. Michael: Appreciate it. Thank you very much. The post Episode #52 – Michael Silk On How to Gain Extreme Empathy In Your Market appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


8 Apr 2014

Rank #5

Podcast cover

Episode #57 – Nick Francis on How To Create A Great Brand Through Value Over ROI.

Watch out! Nick Francis is in town and he’s got a controversial message to share: You’re doing it all wrong. What the heck? According to Nick, focusing on ROI instead of the “customer experience” is a dead-end long-term strategy. Sure… you’ll make some money. But in the long run? Because you’re focused on ROI instead of creating a great product, you’ll shoot yourself in the foot and hamstring your business. In other words, he recommends that you zone in on exceeding your customers’ expectations. The classic example? Apple. Great marketing, sure. But the real secret? Create a product that changes people’s lives. It’s all about your brand… your products, content, customer experience… It’s about delivering an unforgettable experience for your customers. THIS creates a lifetime relationship. Some people think that being a “brand” guy means you’re a nerd. But in today’s podcast, you’ll discover a different reality… …a reality where branding, and focusing on the customer experience, trumps everything else… including a relentless focus on ROI. In this episode, you’ll discover: The “controversial” tactic that will earn you more money  (it’s so easy you might feel like you’re stealing!). A radical way to think about revenue to take your business to the NEXT LEVEL (hint: think, value). Why connecting your marketing to your ROI is less important than your branding and actual marketing itself (make WAYYY more money than with ROI).  How to avoid the success blocker that will have you running in circles and wasting all your energy. The 3 lenses to view your ideal customers through in order to know exactly WHAT they want and WHY (your opportunities will SKYROCKET by knowing the what’s and why’s). The best incentives you NEED to be using (proven to work and easy to make!). How to create an amazing experience for your customers, so they keep on buying your stuff! Mentioned: Help Scout – Nick Francis’ very own Help Desk Software. The site has an excellent growth and marketing strategies blog. Russell Branson’s 108 Proven Split Test Wins. The book backed by some smart marketing. Tech Stars Startup Accelorator: Used to startup Help Scout three years ago! Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Raw transcript: The post Episode #57 – Nick Francis on How To Create A Great Brand Through Value Over ROI. appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


13 May 2014

Rank #6

Podcast cover

Episode #56: John Lee Dumas On How To Sell High-Ticket Products Through Webinars (and his secret to converting 1 out of every 3 attendees into paying customers)

Did you know that John Lee Dumas sells a lot of high-ticket products through live webinars? …and that on average, he converts 30% of those from each webinar into customers? Bad-freaking-ass. Plus, it’s not even some complex whiz bang funnel… it’s SUPER basic, but it works like rocket-fuel. Here’s how it works: First, there’s the ad, Then there’s the landing page. Next, they sign up for the webinar. Bam. It’s that easy. Want to know how much money John has created himself from this webinar-funnel strategy? $476,000 …in only 5 months! And that’s just the beginning. His average cold-optin conversion rate is at 30%. Another 30% purchase his high-priced products right after the webinar. John’s membership website “Podcaster’s Paradise” costs a whopping $1k to join. At an average of 25 signups per week, …this adds up to massive profits. He’s currently averaging $180,000 per month… From this ONE product! So how does John convert so consistently? Does he use a professional, well-crafted sales page? Nah… sales pages aren’t working as well as they used to. Not nearly effective enough.   He uses… Webinars. John’s a conversion monster when he gets on a webinar. One of his two signature strategies he calls removing all barriers… His webinars are successful due to these Q&A sessions where John will not end it until each and every question fired his way is answered. The second strategy John uses along with the Q&A truly makes this webinar-funnel a deadly 1-2 punch combo.  What is it? Listen to this episode now to find out: In this episode, you’ll discover: 2 little-known webinar sales funnel techniques John uses to create huge profits (and why you MUST try them… or lose tons of money) How to create open hallways that lead prospects straight to your Buy Now button. (with this simple sales funnel “trick”, you can double your conversion rates overnight.) Why John believes that you need more than a fancy sales page to sell high-ticket products. (this is the golden ticket that will allow you to access the secrets of massive profits through high-ticket products.) The top 2 ways to convert prospects to customers. (learn these, and be able to convert anyone within your industry.) An easy trick to gain traffic (organic traffic is nice, but this traffic is better.)  How John is financially crushing it by converting at such a high rate. (by converting 25-30 people per week, John is stacking up six-figures worth per month.) Mentioned: The Entrepreneur On Fire podcast John Lee Dumas’ Podcaster’s Paradise and Webinar On Fire Nathan Barry’s Product Launch Strategy. Frank Kern’s webinar launch and how he uses free report PDF’s. Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Raw transcript: Download PDF transcript here. Interviewer: It’s John McIntyre here, [inaudible 00:00:02]. I’m here with John Lee Dumas. Now John has a podcast, it’s a very popular podcast, it’s a daily podcast called Entrepreneur On Fire. And everyday he interviews a different … the idea is, he interviews a different entrepreneur and finds out why [inaudible 00:00:20]. There is a bunch of things he goes into, into each entrepreneur to talk to them. But why I got him on the show today was not so much to talk about Podcasting, but to talk about what he is doing with his sales funnel, which he has got a Facebook ad, which goes to like a landing page for a webinar, and then he brings people on to a webinar and then sells them on his paid membership community. And he is absolutely crushing, so I though I want to get him on the show to talk about what he is doing, why he thinks it’s working, maybe some of the mistakes that he has made along the why and how someone or how a listener, you as the listener can go and apply some of this stuff to your own business. So we’ll get into all that in just a moment. John, how are you doing today? John: John, I am doing quite well today. And to be honest, yes, financially we are crushing it right now, but if I had somebody half as good as you a copy, we would be double or triple the revenue. Interviewer: Thank you. Thank you. [Laughter] You crack me up, man. Before we get into the sales funnel, give the listener a background on who are you and what do you do. I have done a little bit but you can probably do a bit better than I did. John: Yeah, I got the real quick rundown. I’m just a country boy from the state of Maine, which is a state couple of hours north of Boston up in New England. And I went to college on an Army ROTC scholarship, John. That’s why when you rain me up here on Skype, and I saw you shooting a 9 mm Beretta, I got a little fired up, it brought me back to my combat days in Iraq where I spent 13 months as an Armor Officer leading 16 men and four tanks and battled in Fallujah and Ramadi and Habania. But that was way back in the day and I’ve since retired, and now I’m just floating around. I tried corporate finance, I tried commercial and residential real estate, and finally I had my little aha moment and decided to start a daily podcast because everybody told me I was crazy when I brought the idea to them. I said if they think that’s a crazy idea, that’s exactly why I want to do it. They zig I zag, let’s do this. The only thing I’m missing is a little Chiang Mai, John. Interviewer: You’d get over him, and you were recently in the Philippines too, Chiang Mai is not far away from there. John: Just a little hop skip and a jump I hear. Interviewer: When are you going to move over here? You did the whole digital nomad thing. John: Man, I am so close to doing that. Now that I hear how strong your Internet is and how clear your audio is, what’s stopping me. Interviewer: Exactly. Exactly, man. It’s crazy. You know what’s even crazier is that we have better Internet at home in Chiang Mai where I am right now at the apartment than I have at my mom’s place in Sydney, Australia. And Sydney is one of the most expensive cities in the world but the Internet sucks. John: That’s brutal. Interviewer: It’s horrible, man. That makes me cry every time I go home. John: It just makes me miss Chiang Mai, which is totally cool. Interviewer: Alright, let’s get into this funnel. How about we start, give me an overview of what you’re doing right now, what’s working? If you are up for sharing some figures that would be cool too, but an overview of what’s going on with your funnel, and … yeah, let’s start there. John: John, I’m up for sharing figures, I publish my monthly income reports every single month at EOFire.com/income. We just published our March report yesterday actually. The first month since we started publishing this, we actually decreased in our actual overall finances, but I can’t complain because February was 188,000 and March was 185,000 so we stayed pretty close, and that’s still a pretty awesome number. But the funnel is pretty simple, John. So my audience is built up of podcast, listeners. Again, I was that crazy guy that started that daily podcast, nobody thought it could be done, nobody thought anybody would listen. A few people have, we had 580,000 downloads in the month of March, because that we’ve built an audience. And audience, John, they just talk to me, they send me emails, they send me tweets, they Facebook messages, and they were telling me, John, how do you podcast? How do you rank so high in iTunes? How do you create a product or service off of, which are actually building with your audience? And that’s where I came up with the idea, John, for Podcasters’ Paradise, which is a community for podcasters to create, grow and monetize their own podcast. But the problem is, it’s a $1200 community, you can’t sell people on a sales page unless you are John, I’ve dropped a copy, you could probably create a sales page to sell people but not with me, not with my skills. So I knew that I had to create a funnel, I knew that I had to figure out a system, John. And for me that was having on the intros and outros of my podcast, driving people to a webinar opt-in page. Having it’s on my actual homepage EntrepreneurOnFire, click here to sign-up for your live podcast workshop. And then also doing a lot of spend in Facebook ads, driving people to this webinar opt-in page where every single week we have a live podcast workshop webinar. And that’s our main funnel, John, we get people to show up to these live webinars. I give them 45 minutes of pure value on podcasting, some super hacks, a lot of great tips, tools and tactics. And then in the last 45 minutes I take them inside the doors of Podcasters’ Paradise, I show them everything they are going to get when they purchase. And that’s huge for a lot of people to actually see that before they buy. And it’s a live webinar, John, I answer all the questions, I take away all their barriers that they may have and we convert an average of 25 to 35 people every single week into Podcasters’ Paradise, which is how we are generating six figures a month in revenue from that product. Interviewer: And from what I’ve heard, you stay on this webinar answering questions until you’ve got into the last question? John: Every question, John, because every question is just one barrier that somebody has put up in front of a sale. So my attitude is, hey, I’m going to sit here and answer any question until every barrier is removed, and then everybody has bought and then we’ll close it down. Interviewer: I love that, I love that. So let’s talk about, let’s break this into pieces, you’ve got traffic on the one hand, you’ve got converts and then you’ve got your economics, which is that’s a [inaudible 00:06:39] framework, that’s not something I came up with but, and the economics is basically a product, is how you are making the money. So your traffic is, it sounds like its Facebook and podcast listeners. Is this equally split or you doing more Facebook advertising or more podcasting or how does that breakdown? John: It’s about 65:35, 65% of my leads come from paid Facebook advertising, the other 35% are organic from both the podcast and the website. Interviewer: That’s interesting, and I think why it’s interesting, someone is going to listen to this thing. John has got a daily podcast, he has got 500,000, half a million every month. I can’t get the same results as that because I just don’t want to do a podcast or I don’t have it or, I don’t have this seductive sweet voice to producing people in. John: Listen to the copy guy in action, unbelievable. Interviewer: But anyone can do Facebook. So by the sound of it, what’s going on here is that someone could start if they need a traffic to start just doing Facebook advertising to a certain audience whether it’s podcasting with someone else, and that would get them the tray. Quite a lot of traffic that they could then lead into a funnel and so on, so that’s step one, which is interesting. So someone goes … just to clarify, someone is on Facebook, if they click on the ad and they end up on this webinar, are they coming … how likely are they to have heard of your podcast? John: Quite likely because, John, the actual people that I target through Facebook targeting, which you can get very specific on are on the online entrepreneur, people that do listen to podcast, people that do live in our space so to speak. I target people like Pat Flynn, like Lewis House, like Amy Porterfield, like Dan and Ian Tropical MBA, like those type of really high-level entrepreneurs that I know their audience has likely heard of me, it would probably make sense if they added podcasting to their business model in 2014, so it’s fairly likely. Interviewer: And then what happens? So their own Facebook and they see one of your newsfeed ads and they click on it, and they end up where? So basically it will be a newsfeed ad of either me, I don’t know if you have seen it yet, because it’s a pretty stark image but I’m actually on a sailboat in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and I’m actually stabbing with a spear a shark that has fear branded across it. It is pretty visually stimulating, and I actually got some emails from the Animal Rights Association from that, but I kept it going, because I think any publications is good publication. So I kept that one rolling, for sure. But I use pictures like that, there is one of me actually podcasting with my arms and hair literally on fire, and I love that picture as well. But then there is just other ones regular of bunch of people who have been in Podcasters’ Paradise, all like smiling and podcasting is like a collage, any number of things, and a little bit of copy. Again, not the best copy, not the John McIntyre copy but the best we can come up with, which is just basically saying, hey guys, do you want to learn how to create or monetize your podcast, John, share some tips, tools and tactics about how he has generated or how he has created a business, it generates over $100,000 a month, XYZ. They click on that image or that link, John, and it takes them directly to a lead page webinar opt-in page. It’s actually the James Schramko special, that one with a little faded mind map. So it’s just a very simple landing page, they just sign-up for the webinar there. And I typically do this every single week, so for six days I’m running these Facebook ads to this webinar opt-in. Interviewer: Quick question. Do you get sick of doing a live webinar every single week? What happens if you want to take a week off? I don’t know if [crosstalk 00:10:29] John: It’s interesting, I don’t take weeks off, I don’t even days off to be honest with you, but when I first started I was a little terrified, a little scared, there is definitely some fear of failure. When I first started doing webinars, as I’ve heard that most people do experience because it’s like what if nobody shows up, like what if nobody buys, it’s going to be embarrassing. I was having all those doubts as well. So when I first started, it was tough to get over that hurdle, but pretty soon, I’ll say after the third or fourth live webinar, and now I’ve done over 50, I just started hitting my groove. I just love interacting with the audience, I get on 15 minutes early before the webinar starts. And I’m calling people out like, oh, it’s John McIntyre from Chiang Mai, it’s Julie, it’s Josh Stanton, it’s Bryce, like what’s up guys, how are you doing, thanks for joining me, XYZ. Where you guys from? Oh, we got somewhere from New Zealand, we have somewhere from Poland, and really interacting with them and making them know straight up, hey, this is a live webinar. I’m here for you, I’m answering your questions, XYZ. Then when we launched the live webinar, and I just had fun, that it’s a fun webinar, it’s about an hour presentation, maybe an hour and 15 minutes. And then by the end, John, I am getting back into question, I’m answering everybody’s questions live on that webinar, and I like the questions that gets fired at me, makes me think on my feet. I get to react quickly, it makes me better as a podcaster and as a presenter. And now that I’ve done so many, it’s actually the thing that I look forward to most, John, besides obviously being on this podcast. Interviewer: I was talking to a buddy of mine here in Chiang Mai recently, he is a conversion loan specialist. John: Was it Bryce? Interviewer: No, it’s not Bryce, it’s another guy. John: Oh, I miss Bryce. Interviewer: So this guy was talking about how some people get 10%, 15%, he reckons 20% [inaudible 00:12:20] on a webinar. So you, it sounds like you are getting 30 to 35%, what do you think? You went through some of the differences, some of the things you are doing right there on the webinar, but are there any key things that you think that are making you get almost, 20% is the standard, you are almost getting double the results that most people would love to get? John: For complete transparency, I’ve definitely had … I’ve done so many webinars, I’ve done some that have converted 20%, I’ve rarely seen a conversion less than that. I’d say I average between 28 to 32% and we really do keep these stats because I want to see what’s working. And I have done as high as 30 of 38% before. I remember I did one where I had 123 people on I think, and we did 39 sales. So that was our best webinar that we’ve ever done. And especially because this is a product where we do give a $300 discounts for the people that take action on that live webinar. So it takes there from 1200 down to 900, but 39 times 900, that was in the high $30,000 range for one webinar, which is one hour and 15 minutes, so definitely a success. Again, there some expenses laid out there, I’m paying a little over $2000 every single week to get the Facebook side of that there. I am not paying anything except sweat equity for the organic side, but there is lot of time and effort that does go into that. I do think the reasons why I’m typically getting between again 28, typically on the low average, 32 is definitely the high average conversions on these webinars is because they are live, John. A lot of people don’t do live webinars. I’ve had a lot of conversations with Amy Porterfield, and she told me about people’s mentality like James Wetmore and how they create one webinar and then they’ll just put it into automated overdrive, and they’ll answer questions on that first webinar, but then it’s just all are recorded after that. And I think people get that because people are always surprised when they get to this webinar, no matter how many times we put in capital letters, ‘Live Webinar Starting Now. This is a Live Webinar.’ People are still shocked when they show up and it actually is live, so I’m like, it is April 8th, it is 12:01 p.m. Pacific Time. I’m seeing, Joe, Sarah, Sam in the chat room and I’m interacting with the people there live, and I still get that shocking odd that it is actually live and people love that. When you actually are answering their specific question, they feel like you really care. Interviewer: I can see that. So when you are doing the live webinar, a lot of people would get on there, and they might have one question or two questions, and if only they can get those one or two questions answered, they’ll sign-up. But if you are doing those canned webinars, that a lot of people are doing they’ll never be able to get these questions answered. So while it appears as a Q&A to everyone, whether they think it’s live or not is irrelevant, they are not going to be able to get that question answered and there is someone else asked it on that very first one webinar. So it sounds like this Q&A is a really key part of what’s making this webinar successful. John: I couldn’t agree more, I’m really finding that to be the case. I’m seeing that there is definitely a large segment of people who are coming in with barriers in place, and those barriers are those questions. And when you’re actually there taking the time to remove those barriers, you are leaving an open hallway and open runway to that ‘Buy Now’ button, and when you are making an event, when you make it exciting, when you make it seem like you they are already in the community, when people buy, John, and I’m like, “Okay, we just had John McIntyre buy. Welcome, John, say hi to everybody in the chat room, let them know you bought.” And then you are typing real-time in the chat room, “Hey, I just bought guys, I am so excited for Podcasters’ Paradise.” Other people are seeing, wow, that’s proof of concepts, nobody wants to be that only person that buys, like they want to know that other people are making the same decision they are, because that validates their own decision. Interviewer: I love it. I love it. So someone signs up, there is obviously [inaudible 00:16:22] lead pages, what happens in the lead up to the webinar, are you doing … usually this is typically where people would do some email marketing to get more people to the webinar because you are going to get a certain amount of people sign up, but not everyone is going to actually show up to the webinar. So are you using any email marketing strategies or anything else to bump those numbers? John: That’s exactly the second area I’d say that we need like John McIntyre on our team. First would be that Facebook ad to really make that enticing copy to actually click on that. And then the second place would be that actual lead page for that quick little sign-up, and the third place is that leading up to the webinar, like how are you building up anticipation. Nathan Barry has a great product launch strategy where it’s all about building anticipation and you are getting people amped and fired up for it without offering anything yet. That’s a great point, I don’t think that we do a good job between when people sign-up to when they actually show up. They get an email the night before, they get an email that morning, that’s a reminder, and then they get an email 15 minutes before the webinar starts. I think there is a huge opportunity that we need to step up and start taking advantage of for those people that signed up four or five days ago. What about a couple emails that go out that really peak their interest for something that’s going to happen on that webinar. We don’t do that, John. Interviewer: You could do it so easily as well, so an email from Frank Kern, he was recently doing some webinar launch. And one of the things he sent out, I didn’t actually go to the webinar because the times really didn’t match with Thailand, but one of the things he said, I thought that was so smart. One of the emails come out, so I’ve got this free report, this guide to the webinar, it’s going to tell you all about what you are going to learn on this program, so great, I’ll just read that, then I can skip the webinar and save my time. So we all opened the PDF and it’s basically fill-in the blank, five or ten page PDF. It’s got all the information, like everything that’s on the webinar except the keywords that would actually make, will make sense. So I’m reading, this going, here is the three essential elements to doing like a powerful webinar. But then I just got, number one, blank spot; number two, blank spot; number three, blank spot. So you could have basically a PDF with catchy headlines and then just fill-in the blank copy, and you can send that out the day before or something like that. I saw that, yeah, I was just signing, he was doing, I thought it was genius. John: John, this is why they pay you the big bucks, my man. Interviewer: So let’s jump real quick then, what about after the webinar? Another thing that some people do is webinar follow-up. So after the people who didn’t buy after the webinar, there is going to be people that may or maybe interested in purchasing if you give them something or do some additional persuasion out to that. Are you doing anything there? John: So we are. Again, I think this is a huge area for us to improve upon because we are fairly aggressive in the post, that’s something that we have worked fairly hard on. So right after the webinar is done, basically what happens is like three hours later an email goes out to everybody who didn’t buy and saying basically, hey guys, we know you didn’t buy slash weren’t able to attend this webinar. We just put up the replay page, it’s only going to be up for 24 hours, tomorrow at midnight this would be going down, there still is a discount. It’s not the $300 discount, but it’s $200 off till midnight tomorrow night, and then that too gets pulled away. And basically what with the link will do is just send them directly to a lead page that just has the video, that just has a ‘Buy Now’ button, just those two things. And then there is some testimonials actually below as well. And we convert a handful of people through that 24-hour process, but again not the kind of numbers I’d like to see. I mean we do a unbelievable job converting people that are live on the webinar into sales. We don’t do a great job in the pre-amping up to make sure the most number of people are there. And we don’t do a good job post, making sure we are maximizing the post sales, because pretty much how it runs down is, just let me give you a really hard number example, John. So a couple of webinars ago we had 650 people who had signed up, about 400 people through Facebook advertising and about 250 people through organic. We had 176 people actually show up live, and then we did 46 sales on that actual live webinar. So that’s pretty much what we’ve been seeing pretty significantly is around 30-ish percent of people that sign-up show up and around 30-ish percent of people that actually show up buy. And we are seeing those numbers within about 5% one way or the other, give or take on almost every single webinar. So we got to find ways to amp up the people that sign up to show up, to bring that to the 40 or the 45 percentile. Then I’d also love to take those numbers that, people that don’t buy after the webinar is done and go … right now that number if we even did it out, it’d probably be like 1% or 0.5% because it’s just a handful of people that sign-up after the webinar is done, during that replay action. So that needs to be improved as well. Interviewer: Fantastic. We are right on time, before we go there one thing I wanted to ask you, do you have anywhere any resources that you would recommend to go and learn about webinars. I think that’s what out of all the things, see I’ve talked a lot about your email marketing on this podcast, almost nothing about webinar, so someone is probably listening to this thing, how the hell do I do a good webinar. So tell me about that? John: Great question. Interviewer: Just give me a good link, good resource, something that works. John: The best resource for webinars is a phenomenal product called Webinar On Fire. If you want to know how to create, present and convert your webinar, WebinarOnFire.com will take you to a page where you can sign-up for free for a live webinar workshop where we teach you everything about webinars. Of course, we offer you entrance into Webinar On Fire at the end. So, John, that’s my favorite resource, probably because I created it, but we are having a lot of fun with Webinar On Fire. Again, it’s one of those things, listen to your audience what do they tell you. When you do $476,000 in sales on a live webinar in five months, people start asking you how are you doing this live webinar? Even though we’ve already identified some areas that we are lacking in, we are obviously doing a lot of things right at the same time. So we did create that product, we are really proud of it, Webinar On Fire is really a great tool for people. Interviewer: Cool. And if they want to checkout your podcast, I’m sure some will, that’d be on EntrepreneurOnFire.com, correct? John: Yeah, but that’s a hard word to spell, just go to EOFire.com. Interviewer: EOFire.com. Easy. Absolutely. John, I really appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you. John: What a blast, John. I’ll catch you on the flipside. The post Episode #56: John Lee Dumas On How To Sell High-Ticket Products Through Webinars (and his secret to converting 1 out of every 3 attendees into paying customers) appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


6 May 2014

Rank #7

Podcast cover

Episode #51 – David Dutton on How to Build A Powerful Network of Influencers

Would you like to position yourself as an authority in your niche? Want to connect with POWERFUL influencers – and open new doors to more lucrative clients and customers? Ever feel like millionaires are laughing at your cold emails and hitting DELETE while they ash their Cuban cigars? (They are.) Enter: David Dutton. David Dutton is known as “the Most Connected Man on the Internet.”  He’s worked alongside Kristi Frank of The Apprentice on NBC with Donald Trump. Before that, David was brokering 8-figure business deals... …from his dorm room at 22 years old. These days? He consults bad-ass entrepreneurs, CEOs, and hustlers on relationship building – …and has done over 130 interviews to strategically build his own tribe.  The best part? In this episode, David reveals his potent networking secrets for free. You’ll discover overlooked tricks and tactics to send winning emails – …and get on a first-name-basis with the Michael Jordans of business. Plus, there’s this: In this episode, David hands out his PERSONAL email address. You’re invited to join the Most Connected Man on the Internet‘s private entourage. See you on the inside. In this episode, you’ll discover: a word-for-word email script that CATCHES influencers’ attention  the genius “15 minute framework” to separate yourself from amateurs in the inbox 2 tested subject lines to get your emails read how you can land interviews and position yourself as an expert the story of one weird paycheck that changed David’s entire mindset at 22 in Bible school why David earned his name “the most connected man on the internet” (it’s not what you think) the #1 response-KILLER when cold emailing ballers The Autoresponder Guy’s secret strategy to landing BIG name interviewees Mentioned: The Apprentice Jeff Walker Ryan Lee david at mostconnectedmarketer dot com – David’s personal email address mostconnectedmarketer dot com Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Raw transcript: Download PDF transcript here. John: It’s John McIntyre here the Autoresponder Guy, I’m here with Dave Dutton a man who they say is the most connected man on the internet. That’s how a Drop Dead Copy or a McMethod subscriber said recently and the subscriber said that I just had to interview this guy so what we’re going to talk about today is how to connect with people via email marketing. Now he’s a formidable entrepreneur and he started by selling 150 space heaters out of a pickup truck in college. He’s worked with Kristi Frank from NBC’s The Apprentice and he’s done a bunch of interesting business stuff including after studying sales and marketing for a little while in college he brokered an $8 million deal from his college dorm room which sounds like a very interesting story. Dave: It is. John: Like I said today we’re going to talk about how to connect with big ass people, influencers, people who have clout in an industry and how to use email to get through to them and get them to listen to you, so we’ll get into that in just a moment. Dave how are you doing today? Dave: Hey, wonderful man. I’m always looking forward to it. I mean any time, I’m a junkie, a marketing junkie and this is one of my favorite topics too so anytime I get to talk about it I’m always glad and it’s not work for me it’s a lot of fun so I appreciate you inviting me on the show. John: Absolutely man, I’m the same. I get the feeling that you like doing interviews as well, you said you’d done 150 interviews? Dave: Yeah, over 120 of them or almost 130 of them now and I’ve used those strategically to network with people and to learn a lot of stuff, build relationships with people and now I do it as a way to generate leads. I help my clients do interviews to position them as the expert and that’s worked very well so I kind of transition into another business with that so it’s been a lot of fun. John: Okay, cool. In a minute we’ll talk about how to use email to network with these influencers and how you’ve done it and how you’ve become just a really, really connected guy on the internet. Before we do that tell the listener a bit about who are you and what do you do? Dave: Sure, I’m 35 I live up just outside of Nashville Tennessee. I started making a living on the internet while I was in bible college, I was 20 … I always forget now, it’s like 22 or 23. Didn’t get rich overnight but Marlene Sanders affiliate program was my first commissions check for $47 and I was sold, I was like … because I don’t know where they came from, I don’t know what I sold, I don’t know who bought it but I woke up and there was commission and I was just like I’m done, this is awesome. Again I didn’t get rich overnight, I ate peanut butter, ramen noodles, I started other businesses like you mentioned in my intro about the … I’ve done, brokered $8 million deal. We were buying and selling stuff from a local scratch and dent store and we bought 150 space heaters, these were heaters that … they’re just little small heaters. They retail for 25 bucks. We bought pallets of them, they were selling them and we’ve done a lot of stuff but I love my time. My time is my hot button. Money is awesome, I mean everybody loves money but time is my hot button so I gravitated towards the internet just because at least a digital footprint and you could put all the stuff out there. Just like this I mean you found me through one of your subscribers and I don’t even know how but somehow they tripped over my stuff and they liked it the stuff that I put out years and years ago and it still works and I love that because … To fast forward I’ve written 3 books, I’ve published 2 in the past year, that’s a whole other topic, another discussion someday, book marketing because that’s done very, very well for me. I do, fast forward I still own probably about … on the internet and they pay the bills. Then I do consulting, I started a consulting business back in 2007 and so to where I will basically help people generate leads, position themselves as the expert through coaching or done for you. I actually will do it for them, it just depends on what people want. I did a lot of local business now in the past year and a half. My 2 books that I published that are on Amazon they’re local books and I … John: Okay. Dave: It’s all about influence that’s what we’re talking about today and that’s what I’ve done. John: Okay, tell me a bit about this, how you’ve become known. It sounds like there’s more than one person, sounds like there’s a bunch of people that know you as the most connected man on the internet. Tell me about that. Dave: Yeah, so it’s fascinating. I was networked with people years ago because I made my first money brokering joint ventures back in the day and the internet was as congested as, it’s insane now but it used to not be as congested. I could just connect with people and I was just good at it. I mean it was something I could do and I was not a techie. I mean I didn’t know how to go to websites back in the day and that type of thing so it was hard for me but I got good at networking. Well some of the people I would network with that were really, highly successful and known and all that stuff they were shocked by my networking ability and the fact that I’ve never flown on an airplane and I was networking with all these really cool people and I was like really? I couldn’t believe it because I looked up to them because I thought they were connected and they weren’t as connected as I thought. They were like you should really write that stuff down and I almost was embarrassed by it to be honest with you. I was really kind of oh man, is this going to be like somebody is going to read this and I’m going to waste their time because I just thought everybody knew that stuff, I really did. I was embarrassed to actually write it. It’s called Get Connected and you can go to mostconnectedmarketer.com, shameless plug there but it’s free now. I’ve sold like 9000 copies of that but I give it away for free now, the Get Connected report. I started calling myself the most connected man on the internet and it just, it literally just came about from there. I mean my cell phone is filled with really big influencers and it has been and so I just started … then it kind of just progressed from there or whatever, it just got bigger and bigger. John: Okay and so what part did email, you could call this marketing I guess but what part did email play in it? Dave: Yes, so I have an email and the template is actually in my free report so I give it away completely for free, I still use it, it’s 2014 as we record this but I’ve been using the same email since 2006, the template of it. Obviously I change the contents but the template of it. I used, I started doing interviews with people back in 06 when I wrote my first book and I used a subject line called quick question. It’s still one of my big subject lines to this day because I think people understand that it’s quick and the curiosity factor, curiosity and anticipation they’re both extremely powerful triggers. In this case I’m using curiosity of what is the question? With quick I feel like it might not waste my time so that’s what I used. Then I have just certain paragraphs that I write in the email to reach out to people, connect. Kind of, I mean very similar to what we were doing. I mean you reached out to me for an interview and that’s what I would do, that’s how I started connecting with people is doing these interviews. Then because I did more interviews and Joe Vitale was in it then Willie Crawford was in it in all kinds of really cool people in our industry. Jeff Walker, I have one of the first interviews ever on the internet of Jeff Walker back in 2006, the product launch guy. John: Yeah. Dave: It just snowballed from there. That’s when social proof took over but it all started with reaching out through email and just really figuring out what how to get their attention because the only thing you have to get their attention is your name and the subject line at first. John: Right. Dave: If you’re not famous, I mean nobody knew who I was back in the day and so just really the subject line. I had to get my subject line really, really good and I still to this day, you don’t want to slack but there’s some things that you can do or whatever that get their attention. John: Okay, tell me about … we will talk about how to do it, how to make it work in a minute but tell me about some of the mistakes that you’ve seen because I’m sure you get emails from people who want to do stuff with you, maybe it’s a JV or it’s an interview or it’s a whatever and … I get these kinds of emails all the time but from your perspective what mistakes are people making when they try and contact influencers. Dave: Definitely, this is a great topic. One of the things that they do is they don’t try to give first. I mean they try to just, whatever their thing is they’re trying to promote they start with that and they’re just all about trying to, you can make this amount of money and this is a proven thing and whatever. They’re just really trying to, they’re not giving first and reciprocity is a really powerful trigger as well and so you always want to kind of give first when you do that. It sounds like captain obvious but I can tell you I wouldn’t say it right now if it was that common, common sense is not that common. People will approach just thinking about themselves first, I think that’s the big thing really. That’s the big one, I’d have to really think about other ones that are really significant but that’s what I see just quite a bit, they’re reaching out just thinking about themselves first and it’s like you want to position yourself where … A lot of times the people that are influencers then that means they’re really busy and so you want to basically make sure that you’re not wasting their time and that’s what they’re thinking when they read the email, is this dude going to waste my time. John: Right. Dave: You want to think about that, that’s what they’re thinking because successful people have very limited time, it’s usually their hot button so if you think about that before you hit send on that email what can I do to make it worth their time then it’ll save you some heartache. John: Right, okay. I get a thing all the time when people email me and they, I mean Dane Maxwell pointed this out in an interview done a few months ago but people will email and they’ll write a few paragraphs, few big long scary paragraphs about their problem and then at the bottom there’s a question which is really the point of the email. The point of the email is in the very last sentence. Someone is going to open that email and read a few lines and by the time they get to the end of it they’re sick of it or they’ve archived it or deleted it already. Dave: Yeah. John: Dane’s suggestion and I think this is great is you can just delete most of what was in that email and just keep that one sentence or what you do is flip it around, I do this a lot and I’ll go and write someone an email if I’m contacting people and I’ll flush out my idea, it’s almost like I need to write the email to flush out the idea and then I finish up with the question. It’s like hang on let’s take the question up to the top. Then it’s kind of like they read the question, they know what the email is about as soon as they open it, it takes them an instant and then if they want to read more, some of them want, some of them are I’m not interested they can delete the email you haven’t taken much of their time. If they are interested they’ll keep reading, the background will be there and … Dave: Yeah absolutely. I think this is a really important thing that I think about all the time. When you write copy the goal of the headline is to get them to read the next paragraph. The goal of the first paragraph is to get them to read the second paragraph. Okay? Think about that so when you write an email to somebody whatever the goal is for lead in or whatever it’s to think about what’s the goal. A lot of times my goal would be to get them, not every time but a lot of times my goal is to actually get them off, the goal of the email is to get them off of the email onto the phone. That’s actually my goal. If anything, every single piece of that email whether it’s a line or 5 paragraphs, whatever, every word, the goal is leading them to say yes to a 15 minute phone call or 10 or 15 minute phone call. I just did one the other day, there’s a huge, I don’t want to drop his name but he’s a crazy highly successful really connected guy in Washington DC, runs a big networking group and he’s got Gary Vaynerchuk as his guest in the next week or two, he’s a big guy and that’s what I did with him. I had to follow up with him because he’s really busy, he was in the middle of writing a book but I followed up with him a couple of months later because he was busy, really busy at the time but we scheduled a 15 minute phone call and it ended up being probably 45 minutes or whatever because we connected and we hit it off and he realized I wasn’t going to waste his time and that type of thing and we both get value out of it. I just did that last Thursday I guess it was. I did exactly what we’re talking about but the goal of that email I said literally was hey can we talk for about 10 or 15 minutes on X? John: It’s interesting when I found that you get someone on the phone for 10 or 15 minutes there’s a good chance you’re going to talk to them for another half an hour. It’s incredible. Dave: Yeah, unless you’re … yeah, I mean that’s very rare unless you do something really weird or whatever. I mean there’s very few people I’ve ever not connected with or whatever but you just, yeah that’s how it works. It’s kind of commitment consistency and kind of the foot in the door technique and that’s really what it is. John: Right and then there’s the follow up. We were talking just before this call or just before I hit the record button about some of the guests I’ve gotten on this podcast I’ve had emails saying how did you get that guest? They can’t believe it and there’s an element of social proof just by the fact that I’ve been able to get them for an interview. Sometimes people often think that there’s some advance maneuvering or you’ve got to get good hookups or anything like that but I literally had people that I’ve had to follow up with, I have a note in my calendar once a week I go through a tab in my Gmail inbox called podcast interviews and I just follow up with everyone that hasn’t replied yet about interviewing. Sometimes I followed up 10 times, 20 times before they finally book in an interview. Dave: Good for you. John: They’re not annoyed, they never get annoyed about it it’s just that they’re busy. Dave: Absolutely, yeah. See that killer, that’s a little thing but I think that’s going to separate you from everybody else if it hasn’t already just because, I mean obviously I guess it has because people are shocked at some of the people you got on your show so it’s working and most people they just won’t do that. I mean I’ve dropped the ball myself before but some people if you’re trying to get a Seth Godin or something like that, some really huge name I mean you’re going to have to follow up. I mean they really are legitimately busy. John: Yeah it’s funny and some people take it personally, they’re too worried to piss someone off but I think you kind of have to bring out the body armor sometimes and not worry about that stuff. Be willing to piss the assistant off. Dave: Yeah, well I’m going to tell everybody listening the reason why we’re doing an interview right now is because you had the character to actually follow up. You sent me this email, I don’t even think I responded, I can’t even remember if I responded to the first one or whatever. I had every intention of responding, I was like of course yeah absolutely I’ll do it. I love the topic, I’m glad to help and all that stuff and but it was just like the timing. I stopped, I’ve been testing something as part of my productivity I deleted my email app off of my phone. I’m not even checking emails as much anymore. I mean I’ve never done that, I’m just testing certain things to kind of wean myself off of, so I don’t even check email as much like I used to or whatever, just at the end of the day or whatever. Anyway but you followed up with me I’m like yes, thank you, yeah absolutely. It literally had nothing to do with you, it had everything to do with just what I had going on and it got crushed in my inbox and that was it so follow up guys if you want to land some good interviews. John: Absolutely, I mean it’s … I think with a topic like this, this is kind of related to autoresponders, it’s more like manual autoresponders or manual email marketing when you’re trying to market yourself to big people and there’s really no secret to it. It’s as simple as you have a subject line like your strange question or quick question, something like that that just gets them to open the email like what’s this. Because no one can … everyone likes checking their email inbox, it’s so addictive because every time you go in there and there’s a new email you get a shot of dopamine and that feels good in the brain right? You’re feeding someone drugs when you send them an email but you can’t be boring. Dave: You’re right, yeah. Absolutely you can’t be and you usually only get one shot that’s the thing, I mean if you’re going to, like that whole kind of BS meter is running or whatever when somebody is like you know what no, this person is not in the game or he’s not going to add value or whatever. Sometimes you might not get a reply. John: Another thing too I find sometimes people email me and the email is written and it’s about a favor for them, they need help with something, they need coaching, they need advice, they need something. Whereas I know what I’ve been doing is I make a point to not talk about what I want, I’ll say I want an interview but then it’s all framed about what the interview is going to do for you. Here’s what you’ll get out of it, here’s how it’s not going to cost you much all you got to do is show up on Skype. This is what people have to do, when they want something from someone else they should never mention that it’s a favor because it’ll never be a favor. The only way to get that other person to do what they want them to do is to give them whatever they want which is PR or whatever. Dave: Yeah and more exposure, stuff like this, yeah. Just so you know the biggest thing is try to give first. I mean if you will come in like that and just think about what you’re doing is adding value to the person and do you feel like they’ll find value out of it. Just if you focus on that I think everything takes care of itself even if you’re a newbie and you’ve never done this stuff before it takes time. I mean my second interview was Joe Vitale. This is like when he was big with the Secret and all that when he was making his rounds and stuff. That was my second interview of my life. I mean I still remember doing the interview and that was 2006 or whatever and I still remember like it was yesterday because I was so nervous. I landed him and then it just, it snowballed from there. John: Okay. I’m curious man, where are all these interviews. You keep mentioning these interviews done, where can people go and get these interviews if they want to listen? Dave: Yeah, I’ve got internet empires inner circle. I’ve actually taken them down now but if somebody emails me, I mean I’ve got insane interviews, people that are famous and then other people that are not well known but they got really cool stories like a guy making 100 grand a year selling juggling supplies online and different things like that. If somebody wants to email me then I think then I’ll send you the file or whatever of the interview and stuff, they’re really fascinating. I took the interviews, I transcribed them and that was my first book. Actually my first book is hanging on my wall right here called Internet Empires and it’s just stories of people making a living on the internet but we do all kinds of different interviews for different things, podcasts and that type of thing. John: Okay, so we’re right on time then. Where can people go to learn more about you or what email address, what’s your email address basically? Dave: Yeah, sure, david@mostconnectedmarketer.com, david@mostconnectedmarketer.com and you can go to mostconnectedmarketer.com and start there since we’re talking about email and connecting with people. That’s, we were talking offline or whatever that’s probably some of my best stuff I think and also I have a course set, up sell course going, I think it’s 17 bucks I think I sell it for now but specific strategies from … I mailed a little red ball to David Frye from sendaball.com to David Frye and he’s a huge, huge, marketer whatever. That landed Ron Lee as a client, he’s a big internet marketer, multimillionaire, the world’s strongest man and I talk about very specific strategies of how I’ve actually connected with people strategically. It’s all strategic for me and it works really well but I give a lot of free stuff away and I’m glad to help if somebody is interested in this topic and I can point them in the right direction. John: Fantastic, I’ll have links to mostconnectedmarketer.com, that was it right? Dave: Yeah. John: In the show notes at theMcMethod.com and yeah. This is the McMethod Email Marketing podcast. Thanks for coming on the show Dave. Dave: Thanks for having me, I enjoyed it. The post Episode #51 – David Dutton on How to Build A Powerful Network of Influencers appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


1 Apr 2014

Rank #8

Podcast cover

Episode #59: Rob Hanly on 3 Reasons Why Your Marketing Strategy is Going to Fail.

Put on your Sunday’s best. Reverend Rob Hanly’s at the podium to preach… …about why your marketing strategy is going to FAIL. That’s right… You and your biz are going DOWN. But you don’t have to… And that is why Rob’s sermon is a marketing revelation in this Sunday’s week’s episode. Improve on these 3 areas, and watch your business expand into the heavens… Do you know what your ONE true NEED is? Don’t let BAD marketing waste away your potential. Learn how to identify what’s most important in your business, then hit that ASAP. The hack is here: client acquisition, maximization and retention. This no brainer WILL earn you more sales… …juicy ACTIONABLE details inside. Do you know those guys with HUGE heads?  The one’s who love saying I and ME and I and ME and I… Don’t be one! It doesn’t work! All you gotta do is shut the hell up! Really…  Talk. Less. You seem desperate. And for the third reason, Rob takes off his sunglasses… Listen-in now and walk away cleansed of all your marketing failures. In this episode, you’ll discover: Rob’s effective tactic to maximizing client lifetime value (think… car mechanic) a 3-step hack to find your what. (identify what needs to happen and watch the $$$ roll-in) how to squeeze the most earnings possible from your current products and services. an excellent technique to slashing your ME talk (use simple-math to increase your authenticity) a full-proof way to gain authority over someone else’s world (develop instant trust) an effortless system to create actionable steps out of any idea. (it’s easier than you think) the vital percentage number you must know to realize your true potential (It’s ok that most people aren’t a good fit) how to utilize influence to grow your business with ease (the struggle to persuade ends here) Mentioned: EMP Episode 54’s Terry Dunlap Justin Brooke’s paid traffic coaching. Tony Robbins‘ know your outcome strategy. Perry Marshall’s 80/20 Rule of Business. Evernote Rob Hanly says to you all, “Contact Me” Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Raw transcript: Download PDF transcript here. John McIntyre:Hey, it’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder Guy, and it’s time for episode 59 of the McMethod email marketing podcast where you’ll discover how to kick ass at marketing. Specifically email marketing, but really all things of connecting your prospect with your product and making a ton of cash. Today I’ll be talking to Mr. Rob Hanly who some of you might have heard of, about the three reasons your marketing strategy will fail. Now a long, long, long, long time ago which is really about 30 episodes ago, I did an interview with someone called the Reverend, okay? Now Rob Hanly is the Reverend. This is his coming out podcast, he’s announcing himself to the world, getting his name out there, and like I said, today we’re going to talk about three reasons why your marketing quite simply sucks, or mistakes that you’re making that are really going to make it fail. So some really interesting stuff. Now Rob is a great guy. He’s a marketing consultant, he’s very successful, and I think where Rob really, really excels, one of his unique gifts is breaking things down into actionable steps that anyone can do. I’ve had so many coffees with this guy. He’s here in Thailand with me right now, and we meet up for coffees and he’ll tell me about what he’s up to, I tell him what I’m up to, and I’ll be like, I’ve applied so much of what he’s said to the McIntyre Method and the McMethod. A lot of the emails that I’ve sent out if you’re on my list, some of that is going to be influenced by Rob because I’ll be like, All right, Rob. I’m going to do this. I’m doing this product launch this weekend, and here’s my idea. He’s like, Well John, that sounds great but you should do x, y, and z. I’m like, oh, that’s a great idea. I’d go home, I’d do x, y, and z, send it out and I’d make more money than I would have made if I didn’t do it. So that’s Rob; great guy. Now to get the show notes for this episode of the email marketing podcast, go through themcmethod.com/59. That’s themcmethod.com slash five nine. Now, I’ve got a couple things. The McMaster’s insight of the week … McMaster’s if you don’t know, is my paid membership community. When you sign up you get access to the McIntyre Method, the stories, the sell, the pages that convert. Basically, a whole bunch of courses that’s really, to go back to this result, what is it going to give you? It’s going to get you to develop a great email marketing strategy for your business, and you’re really going to learn how to do the landing pages, how to get stories down pat, really just build some great marketing into your business and make lots of money. That’s at themecmethod.com/mcmasters. Now I’ve got … basically there’s a forum inside there, and there’s some great stuff going through that forum that we’ve all been talking about with email marketing. So I want to do here is to share an insight of the week. Now this week’s insight is, what if you could improve your customer’s results with your product just by charging more? Now the point of your post-purchase fallout, this is critical if you’re making sales. Now, so we’re talking about here, this was in a thread [inaudible 00:02:27] the product and some of the best ways to basically make more money with your product, and this idea here is, what if you could improve the results … I love this … this first sentence here. What if you could improve your customers results with your product just by charging more? Now, here’s an example. I just signed up for a coaching program for paid traffic with Justin Brook. Now this is … paid traffic is a new area for me. It’s what I’m getting into right now. I’ve got a sales final set up and after I’ve done this right now, I’m going to be going and setting up a new campaign on Facebook to test something else, okay? Now Justin’s coaching is quite expensive. Now what that does is because I’ve paid him this cash, I’m incentivized to actually take action. If he’d just made it free, or if it was really cheap, or if it was like a $50 e-book, I’d be like, there’s no way. I’d be lazy. I’d procrastinate because it’s only $50, but when you’re spending a couple thousand dollars on something like this, it lights a fire under your ass to actually get something done. So that’s what I’m trying to do here, is by spending more money, I’m going to get better results with the product. I’m already seeing it happen right now. So think about then in your situation, what could do you do with your product? How could you just charge more and help your customer get better results, right? You’re going to make more money, but forget about that for a second. Your customer, because they’re spending more money, they’re going to be more likely to do something with it. They’re going to get better results, and therefore going to talk more to other people. Tell more people about your product. Now this isn’t a panacea. It’s not a magic bullet, but it’s something worth thinking about, okay? Now reviews … one thing I like to talk about on the show is reviews. I love reviews, and it really helps spread the word about the show. I’ve had some great success stories from these podcasts. Terry Dunlap was an episode we did a few weeks ago, and Terry made $85,000 in just 5 months more or less just applying what he’s learned in this podcast. He sent me an email. It said pretty much that entire success story is this podcast. There’s some other things he did, but that was the bulk of it. So if Terry can do it … and he’s not an email marketer; he’s not even a copyrighter. He does some government work … contracting work … and here he is kicking ass at email marketing. I just think it’s so good. I want to hear more of these success stories. So if you want to leave a review and help spread the word so we can get more of these, go to iTunes, search for the McMethod email marketing podcast and leave me a review, you’ll also put a big, huge, cheesy grin on my face and you’ll make my day. I’ve got one listed question today. What would you do differently now that you wish you would have known when you started? That is very simple for me to answer right now, and that is paid traffic. I’ve tinkered with paid traffic over the last 2 or 3 years but I never committed to it. I never really got the mindset correctly, which is that most tests will fail and you just basically have to test your way to profitability. Now I wonder what would have happened if I would have been spending 10, 20, 30 dollars a day for the last year or for the last 2 years. I would be quite a lot further ahead than I am now, okay? So if I was to redo something or if I was to go back 2 years ago with what I know now, I would just get started with paid traffic and spend 5 bucks a day. Even if I could only spend 5 bucks a day I would still do it. So that’s it for now. Let’s get into this interview and talk to Rob Hanly and talk about the 3 reasons that your marketing strategy is going to fail. It’s John McIntyre here the Autoresponder Guy. I’m here in a very, very soundproof room, not the usual spot. I’m here with a special friend who was on here about 30 episodes ago. He’s a bit of a … I was going to say preacher before but he doesn’t really go by that title. He goes by the title the Reverend. He’s a bit of a preacher, but the Reverend is really his thing, and today he’s coming to give us a bit of a sermon about consulting, and some of the reasons that’s … we’re not just consultants, but some of the reasons that your marketing strategy will fail. So this is going to be for consultants, for business owners, and anyone who is trying to use marketing in their business, which is everyone. Rob Hanly:Hopefully. John McIntyre:Hopefully, hopefully. That’s the way it should be, right? Rob Hanly:Yeah, everyone should be. John McIntyre:So I’ll turn it over to him and I think he’s here to talk about who he is this time maybe. Maybe the crack the nut and give you all a look at who the Reverend actually is, and then we’ll get into some of his marketing stuff. So over to you, Reverend. Rob Hanly:So for those of you who don’t recognize my lovely Australian dulcet tones, my name is Rob Hanly and I’ve been a special consultant for a couple of years. I’ve worked with business in a variety of industries. I’ve worked with industry bodies, I’ve worked with health and fitness companies, financial services and a few others, and it’s been a really good experience because it allowed me to kind of see the commonalities of where people fail. Everyone likes to think their business is special and unique but the reality is, when it comes to failure particularly, there’s a lot of commonalities; a lot of things in common. So that’s the basic intro I guess, you know? Do I need to flesh that out? Do I need to explain some of the stuff I’ve done? John and I have worked together. When he’s having his lunches he opens his products, we sit on Facebook chat. John McIntyre:Facebook chat down at Ristr8to in Chiang Mai drinking that coffee. Rob Hanly:Sipping that coffee, telling John to do things. John does things. That’s basically the way it works. John McIntyre:Oh, we’ll talk about that. We need to do another episode. We’ll talk about the different strategies, you know, you’re the scalpel, I’m the hammer. We’ll talk about that later. Rob Hanly:That’s it. John McIntyre:But today let’s talk about these 3 reasons that you’re marketing strategy … not you, but the listener here … why the listener’s marketing strategy will fail because a lot of marketing does fail. A lot of marketing is terrible. Even when people go back and get good at copyrighting, and sales letters, and all that stuff, they still fail to actually get clients or get customers. Rob Hanly:Get things happening. John McIntyre:Get things happening. Just make money in general. So what’s number one? Rob Hanly:The first thing that I’ve found to be the most common reason that a marketing strategy campaign will fail is that you actually don’t know what’s important. This sounds like no shit, but it’s the objective approach. So let’s say that you’ve got a business in health and fitness space, and this is a bit of a story about someone that I’ve recently been working with. I’m not going to tell you who they are but … it’s for their privacy. Most of my clients are discreet. I like to keep it that way. We were having a chat and I said to him, “What’s the single most important thing that you can do to drive your business forward?” If you could just do one single task every day, day in and day out, what would you be doing to make more money? John McIntyre:Okay. Rob Hanly:His comment was, “I’d be speaking to people on the phone because I know that everyone I get on the phone, I can get the majority of them to become a customer.” John McIntyre:Right. Rob Hanly:So then I asked him, “All right, so what are you doing to get people on the phone?” Nothing. Nothing in particular, just hoping that they’ll email and ask. Hoping that they’ll click a button and contact him. The fact is, we as humans are really lazy. Our goal is to conserve energy. So if you don’t tell me to do something, I’m not going to do it at my own volition. We have chatted. We have basically spoken. I said to him, “Here’s the steps you’ve got to take. Your goal from now on is everything you do is about driving people to end up on the phone to you or on the phone with you, or getting one step closer to being on the phone with you. Again, it sounds so obvious, but when was the last time most people sat down and thought, what is the long term objective here? What is they key task I need to do every day in my business to make money so I can keep running the business, and how do I get people to take that action? It’s the simplest thing you can solve. John McIntyre:I like it. This reminds me of when Perry Marshall was on the podcast about a month ago, and I got him on to talk about this 80/20 sales marketing book which you’ve read, which I’ve read, and that really blew my mind because that’s sort of like an in to this sort of topic, what’s important. If you sit down in your business and your marketing and whatever you’re trying to do, there are a few key actions that are driving all the growth, all the progress, and when you show up to work each day and you open up your laptop, you fire up the computer, and you just do whatever is on that list without actually pausing to figure out what’s actually contributing to the goal. If you don’t do that you end up kind of moving around in a bunch of busy work. Rob Hanly:Yep. John McIntyre:I’ll give you an example. I’ve been using MNO to manage my to do list. and I’ve got a project in there called the McMethod 2.0 or something like that … the version to do list. It’s just got along list of stuff. Change this on the website, change this, do this, do that, and it’s all good stuff and it will all create a result. However, based on the goals I have for the business, there are only … I realized that just reading this Perry Marshall book … there’s only a couple things that are actually important. We talked about this recently, that what’s important right now for me anyway, is booting out a sales file and then firing up that sales file on paid traffic. Obviously that’s what I’m doing. I’m just ignoring that whole to do list which is I don’t know how many pages long, I’m just not even looking at it and just doing this paid traffic stuff because I know that that’s going to drive things forward. So I love this idea here is that people might be failing right now and not getting the results they want, but chances are, usually the solution is just one small thing. Like with the health and fitness buddy, that he doesn’t need to do a whole bunch of stuff. He doesn’t need to work harder, or do more, or spend more, he just needs to identify what’s the thing that needs to happen and do it. Rob Hanly:Now for most people the quick hack … for most people obviously it’s sales. You can drop most of your attention everywhere else, and if you just focused on sales, get the money coming in the door both from existing clients and from new clients, that’s going to probably be the most important thing that you can focus on because then you can have revenue to hire other people. Then you can maximize the growth that you’ve already got the opportunity to take, to have. So three things to think about, the most important task, if you don’t know what that is, is it client acquisition, client maximization, or client retention? John McIntyre:Let’s talk about that first. What is client maximization? That’s a big word. Rob Hanly:It is a big word. John McIntyre:I don’t like big words. I mean, I’m not really like a … I’m a short word kind of guy. Rob Hanly:Short word? 5 cent word? So basically client maximization is, how can you maximize the lifetime value of the customer? John McIntyre:Customer. Rob Hanly:How do you maximize the lifetime value of the customer? How can you have him spend more money with you? The answer to that is always obviously provide more value and more opportunities for them to purchase. So instead of flogging a $37 e-book and nothing else, setting up a back end, setting up other products to help them with other problems. If like, a recent guest you had on the show is working a security space. So he’s got a front end product, he’s done very well with it, but what other back end tools could he add? Could he help them by giving the network setups? Could he help them with other issues with security? There’s a whole range of similar problems that he could help them solve. Because he’s obviously very good at solving that first problem. He’s got his lead product. It sells really well. What comes next? John McIntyre:And that’s about maximizing. How much it costs to spend or do over a 12 month period, without getting technical? And the cool thing here to pay attention to is, I think some people hear this and are like, “I just don’t want to be selling all the time. It’s kind of sleazy, and I’m just trying to get as much money as I can out of them.” But the only way to really do this properly is to just help people solve more of their problems, so really you make more money but you are actually adding more value to the market place. So you’ve got to think about it that you are actually doing people a favor because they can just get all their stuff off you now. You’re just saving them time, energy and effort, and they’re giving you money in exchange for it. I think the easiest way to think about this is if you own a car. Car mechanic. So yeah, he does your basic service, but he’ll also help you with your tires, if you’ve got any issues with the engine, he’ll also help you make it run smoother. He’ll also go and change your oil. He’ll do all that bits and pieces that need to come along for your car to run smoothly. And if you’re in a business of security, just to go back to that example, what other problems exist with people and their home technology security? Is it their phones, is it that they need VPNs, is it that they need apps to lock all their data down, to encrypt their data, they need guides on how to use Truecrypt. What is it that is more useful for them to do? Rob Hanly:I think the easiest way to think about this is if you own a car. Car mechanic. So yeah, he does your basic service, but he’ll also help you with your tires, if you’ve got any issues with the engine, he’ll also help you make it run smoother. He’ll also go and change your oil. He’ll do all that bits and pieces that need to come along for your car to run smoothly. And if you’re in a business of security, just to go back to that example, what other problems exist with people and their home technology security? Is it their phones, is it that they need VPNs, is it that they need apps to lock all their data down, to encrypt their data, they need guides on how to use Truecrypt. What is it that is more useful for them to do? John McIntyre:Fantastic. So you had client acquisition, client maximization, what was the other one? Rob Hanly:Client retention. John McIntyre:Client retention? That’s just keeping people on for longer, right? Rob Hanly:Yeah, it’s keeping people on and a lot of people only think about retention as being an element of subscription services, so whether you’re a gym or you’ve got a membership site, all that stuff. But retention is also making sure they purchase from you multiple times. So if you have multiple products, that’s where retention comes in. That’s how you make sure that, if you’re saying in the business of health and fitness, and they come to you and they buy a weight loss program, well, how do you get them to buy another weight loss program? How do you help them with the next step? Maybe their first goal is to lose that 10 kilos that they’ve been carrying around that bit of a spare tire. But now maybe what they want to do, is they want to get the muscle definition. They want to cut a little more body fat and build a bit of muscle. All right, cool. So let’s offer that to them next. Now they’ve had two purchases in the space of 12 months, double the lifetime value. What can you do, other than acquiring them, and maximizing the value on the initial sale, how can you retain them? Which also comes back to maximization. It’s a beautiful chicken egg that you can’t lose with. John McIntyre:I like it. It’s all tied in. Rob Hanly:Yeah, and you can’t lose. That’s the best part. John McIntyre:That’s the best bit. Cool, man .All right, we’ve done that. Number one reason why marketing strategies don’t work, is you don’t know what’s important. Rob Hanly:You don’t know what’s important and that’s your hack: acquisition, maximization, retention. John McIntyre:Sweet. Number two. Rob Hanly:Talk about yourself. John McIntyre:So the other day, I was just hanging out at my place and I was thinking about how awesome I am. Rob Hanly:This, ladies and gentlemen is what you don’t want to do.  John McIntyre: I’m sure you’ve all received a message from somebody. He says, “Buy this, buy that, buy this, buy that” and all you want to say is, “Shut the fuck up, like I don’t care.” This is like an e-mail. Because we were talking about e-mail marketing. It’s like, “Hey, I’m really glad you joined my e-mail list. I really hope you have a great time. I’ve got some cool stuff to share with you. I think we’ve got the best business in the market. We got the best products and services that are going to help you, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” Rob Hanly:Delete. That’s all that comes off the back of that. So a really good way to figure out if you’re talking about yourself to much is count the number of “I’s” and the number of “You’s”. That’s it. I will make a little addendum here. If your doing call to action, that should always be mine, me, etc., but just in general copy, talk about “you”, talk about the other person, because when you are trying to influence somebody, you are the least important person in the conversation. You’re borderline irrelevant.  They are only concerned about solving their problems. John McIntyre:This isn’t just copy, because I’ve talked about e-mail copy in McMasters. But this is with, you get on the phone with a client, when I get on the phone with a client now, I don’t know how I kind of ended up here, it’s just how I tend to do things now, I don’t go in there talking about me, talking about who I am, what I do and all that. Usually they already know about me from the podcast. Rob Hanly:They’re indoctrinated. John McIntyre:Right. So what I do is, all I’m trying to find out is, “Who are they? What’s their business? What are the problems that they have? And then, once I have a proper understanding of who they are and what they do, the only time I start talking about myself, is in the context of how we can help them.  And that’s it.  I leave it at that. Rob Hanly:That’s really important though. You’ve just said, “how we can help them, how we can work together.” It’s never about “here’s what I will do for you, because I.” No, no. It’s like, “Together, these are our objectives and you and I will work together for this.” We. you. I is the least important letter. John McIntyre:I think people understand that, but what people think when they write an e-mail, or they get on a client call, or they do any of these things, if they talk about themself, they are going to impress the other person. So I think it’s a little bit about social dynamics. Rob Hanly:Yes. John McIntyre:Understanding how rapport is built, how connections happen. But if you go in there and you talk about yourself, that’s the very immature way to try and build rapport and try and build a connection. Rob Hanly:Yes.  When you do that, you are seeking validation.  What we need to understand is, a rich man doesn’t have to tell you he’s rich.  That’s it.  So whenever it comes that you are on the phone with someone and you’re saying, “Hey, yes, so you know I wrote this awesome, awesome AutoResponder, and it did hundreds of thousand of dollars in revenue, and I spent 18 hours working on it, and it was fabulous, because I’m amazing.”  They’re going to sit there going, “I really don’t care.”   It’s irrelevant.   That stuff they should either (a) already know about you, and it’s not bad to say, “Hey, I’ve done some really cool stuff,” but after that, that’s it.  You don’t need to prove yourself. John McIntyre: But you could say that exact same story. Now get this. So you’re chatting with them and they tell you all about their business and what they need. And you go, “Oh, that’s just like this other client I had two weeks ago. We did an AutoResponder for them, we kind of set them up with this, and they ended up being quite happy with it, but the results we got were really, really cool.” And then you talk about results. But then, it’s the exact same story, but the context is, “I’m only telling you because it’s relevant to your specific situation.” Rob Hanly:Nailed it. 100%. Too many people spend time thinking, “Hey, if I spend a whole lot of time saying what an amazing person I am, it will win them over.” As you just said. You only give them those facts when it helps cement their trust, cement the authority back up a point. It’s the equivalent of, look if you’re a guy, you’ve gone out before, you head into a bar, you’re trying to tell a girl that she should go home with you. In a nut shell. That’s your marketing objective. Bring her home. But let’s be really blunt. If you go up and say, “Hey, so I’m a banker and I make $250,000 a year, and I drive a Ferrari and I’ve got this really nice suit that cost me $10,000 from Tom Ford, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, she’s going to look at you and ignore you and come to someone like John because he’s going to talk about her, and he’s going to tell her about her world.  Ant that’s a really good take away.  If you can demonstrate authority over somebody else’s world.  If you can show them that’s it’s all about them, you’re light  years ahead of the pack.   John McIntyre:And that’s the other thing. We talk about, we’re going deep here, we’re going concept, concept, concept, but the other one is qualifying. Who’s qualifying to who? So, if I go into a phone call and I’m talking to this client, and I’m like, “Well, I’ve done this and I’ve done that,” I’m qualifying myself. I’m trying to make myself good enough for them. Whereas, if I just don’t do any of that, if all I did was eliminate that qualification to them, they’ll start doing to me, because someone ends up doing it. So they’ll start telling you why they’re a good fit. Why they’re a good business. Why they’re worthy to work with me. And even if it’s not the case, even if they’re a much bigger client than I’ve ever worked with before, I still want to create that frame, that approach, that context. Rob Hanly:You are using the words I love, aren’t you?  Frame.  Love that word.  All those words.  It’s very important.  And someone always has to qualify to the other person.  The easiest way to have someone qualify is, shut up.  Say less.  Accept that you are the prize.  You’re the person who wins. John McIntyre:(Long pause.  Laughs.)  That’s right, that’s right.  We can’t play the silent game on the podcast. Rob Hanly:No, but that is a good trick to learn. John McIntyre:The silent close, now.  That’s a whole other topic.  Right.  Number three. Rob Hanly:Ah, this is something different.  Something that John and I are very different about.  I’ve even taken my sunglasses off just to make this point.  You’re not being strategic.  You are running around like a headless chicken. John McIntyre:You talking about me? Rob Hanly:I’m talking about anyone who’s marketing will fail.  If they are running around like headless chickens, if they are throwing spaghetti at the wall, well, you are probably (a) wasting a lot of effort, (b) getting sub par results, and (c) you’re not taking a second to step back and do the calculations to make sure what you are doing is worthwhile.    The equivalent would be, if you go and grab a handful of spaghetti that’s never been cooked, just to go off the same old metaphor, and throw a handful of  uncooked spaghetti at the wall, is it going to stick?  No.  Whereas, if you take spaghetti that’s been cooked for 5 minutes, is it more likely to stick?  A little more.  10 minutes, a lot more.  20 minutes, definitely.  So the concept of being strategic is about going, “Right, what’s my goal?  What’s my overall objective?  What are the resources that I’ve got?  And how am I going to make this work?  How am I going to bring this all together to achieve my objective, my outcome.” A strategic way, minimizing waste and being as effective and impactful as possible.  And efficiency is also important.  That is my approach.  If you’re not being strategic, if you’re not thinking, “All right, so I want someone to buy something from me.”  Well, instead of just sending out a sales letter, I should send them some good content first, and good will.  Some good stuff they can use.  Send  them 3 or 4 e-mails.  Get them indoctrinated.  Understand the concept of reciprocity.  Once they start getting invested in me, and they say, “Hey, by the way, that’s really cool that you want to save for retirement.  Here’s something, I’ve put together for you.  It’s a really straightforward guide to useing your 401K, if you’re an American, to invest for your retirement,  I’ve provided you with this other information on it.”  They know that you’ve provided them this other information.  Never tell them how great you are or discuss that.  But then they will be more likely to purchase from you, because they’ve seen the quality of your work.  They’ve gotten results already.  They feel better off.  And there’s no selling issue.  It’s like, “OK, if you are interested, you’ve found this valuable, I’ve also got this really cool book.  Check it out.” John McIntyre:This reminds you of like, you wake up in the morning, you open your laptop, you have a to do list, you have stuff to do.  Or you go to your business, you go to meetings.  There are all these different demands on people to go and do different stuff in their life and it’s very hard.  This is very relevant or timely right now, I’m going through a Tommy Robbins program you told me about, Tommy Laughed, and he talks about, he’s got a little system that he calls, and all of them do, right, there’s always a little acronym system thing.  But anyway, part of his thing, his system in this course, is, “know your outcome.”  So, you can wake up in the morning and you can open that laptop and you can just start firing away.  You know that your strategy [inaudible 00:20:59] just execute, execute, get lots of shit done.  Rob Hanly:Move fast. John McIntyre:Move fast and [inaudible 00:21:04].  But I think that’s a great strategy, but you’ve got to do it right. Rob Hanly:{Crosstalk 00:21:09] You know where you’re trying to break. John McIntyre:Exactly, exactly.  So you might just get up and just do a whole bunch of stuff, and I’ve done that for a long time, but what you need to do is, people have a rough idea of their outcome.  Say, “I want to make more money.”  But what would be more powerful, is to really think, “All right, so I want to make more money.  If I’m going to make more money, make more money is a 40,000 foot prospectus.  What’s 35,000.  I want to make more money with the website.”  Then you keep coming down.  You work your way backwards from that outcome. Rob Hanly:What needs to be done. John McIntyre:Exactly.  And so you end up going, “I don’t actually need to do this fucking logo.  I don’t actually need to do this website.  I just need to make some phone calls.”  Like our buddy, this health guy.  He doesn’t need to go and twiddle with his website or hire VAs, or write copy, or any of that stuff. Rob Hanly:He needs to do two things.  Put a button saying, “Apply for more information or coaching” and start following up.  Just sending an e-mail out to customers who have already purchased from him, and say, “Hey guys.  I’m offering some coaching.”  Done.   That’s it.  That’s the kind of stuff, like, I’m a big proponent of the yellow legal pad.  Phone, yellow legal pad, that’s all you need. John McIntyre:I can see that.  We got one right next to us. Rob Hanly:Right next to us. John McIntyre:Yellow legal pad and black paint,  You had to have that shipped out from the U.S., I heard.  To Dr. Rob, right? Rob Hanly:Actually, to Dr. Rob.  Dr. Rob received a package from Andy Fosset, fromgoldmedalbodies.com. John McIntyre:I love that guy. Rob Hanly:He took good care of me, man.  I made a comment on Twitter that the easiest way to get my attention is with yellow legal pads and Andy pulled through.  I opened the door on Monday to a frantic Thai lady knocking on my door, and she had for me a specially shipped package from Hawaii of yellow legal pads. John McIntyre:That’s the sort of thing you want to get knocked on the door for. Rob Hanly:I don’t want to wait. John McIntyre:It wasn’t like 6 a.m. In the morning, while you were still sleeping? Rob Hanly:It wasn’t. John McIntyre:That’s good. Rob Hanly:But we’re a bit off topic. John McIntyre:Just a little bit.  It’s always a bit of fun like that.  So let’s go back to being strategic. Rob Hanly:That’s it.  You’ve got to be strategic. John McIntyre:You’ve got to be strategic. Rob Hanly:You’ve got to know your outcome.  You’ve got to work backwards. John McIntyre:This ties in to this “you need to know what’s important.”  So you know what’s important.  You’re talking about yourself, that [crosstalk 00:22:56] Rob Hanly:That’s friction, that’s friction.  That’s going to get in the way. John McIntyre:Right. Rob Hanly:You need to be strategic.  Once you identify what is important to you, do it.  John McIntyre:So, point one and point three, or mistake one and mistake three, are very, very interrelated here.  And the best way to do this is, everyone should go out and read, go listen to the  podcast  of Terry Marshall on the 80/20 principal.  Because that was really made it click for me.  And then go buy his book, 80/20 Sales and Marketing.  I’ve been telling everyone to buy this.  But this is what will get you looking at your business, whether you are a consultant, or your selling products, to thinking there’s a small amount of action, a small amount of things  that you can do or focus on, that are going to get you most of the results, but the crazy thing is imagine, like our health buddy.  Let’s give an example.  So, let’s say before he met you, he was doing maybe one phone call a week.  Because he’s going, “Well, that’s important but I’ve got plenty of other stuff to do.  I’ve got the website to manage, and all that.”    And then he sits down with you and you guys talk about what’s really important right now.  And he’s like, “phone calls.”  So, straight away, one thing he can do is eliminate basically most of the stuff he’s doing.  He can just make that one phone call a week and you just keep kicking along making the same income.   However, now that he has all this extra time, he can reinvest or reallocate that time into making phone calls.  So not only has he eliminated most of his to do list, he can move half of that extra time into this phone call task. Rob Hanly:That’s it. John McIntyre:Then he’s going to grow his business rapidly.  He’s going to have more free time as well.  He’s just going to be having the time of his life.  And this is what happens when you figure out what’s important, because you can reallocate the time you gather from elsewhere, into what’s important, you get a higher return on investment. Rob Hanly:That’s it. John McIntyre:It’s so exciting, man. Rob Hanly:The one thing to really keep in mind with this, is really specifics.  You need to be specific.  So you mentioned earlier, “Oh, I want to make more money.”  Well, “make more money” is not specific.  A dollar is more money than you’re currently making.  That’s very simple.  Just go ask someone for a dollar, bang!  You’ve achieved a specific goal.  But if your specific goal is, “I want to earn $10,000 more, I want this campaign to do $180,000,000,”  whatever it is.  One of the highest grossing campaign on line was Porter Stansberry’s End of America.  That was very hefty.  That was above mid nine figures.  I’m not at liberty to say what it was, because I don’t know what it was, exactly.  But I do know it was well and above that mark, from all things that I’ve been told or reports.  But they didn’t start by going, “Oh, gotta make some money off this.”  They probably sat down in a war room, white board, desk, bunch of them sat around, and was like, “What are we going to achieve with this?”  And then, they worked backwards. So, if you want to be strategic, you’ve got to start with a very specific outcome.  You’ve got to start by saying, “I want to sell X copies.  I want to do  $X of revenue.”  Then you work backwards.  And you  never talk about yourself.   That’s it. John McIntyre:All right.  We’ve got time for this one more bonus tip that we got written down right here in front of us.  If anyone is listening, we do have a cheat sheet.  That’s how were making this flow so nicely from one point to the next.  No tangents at all.  So anyway, let’s get onto this point.  Reason versus influence will make this a bonus, but we’ll keep it quick.  Because you just mentioned something about being specific.  That’s what reminded me about it.  And this is where what’s your outcome?  Are you trying to persuade someone to do something? Rob Hanly:It means you are starting off on the back foot.  When I was younger, I really wanted to be  the most persuasive person on the planet and get people to do anything I wanted them to do.  And as I got older, I realized that it was much more effective strategy to find people who already wanted to do it, and just give them a nudge.  That was it.  Now, sometimes, I’ll deploy tricks and tactics and all sorts of stuff [crosstalk 00:26:04]  and they  need the nudge and it’s how you help them, but the real simple version of this is, if you find a guy who likes to cross dress it will be very easy to  sell him women’s underwear.  If you find a guy who hates cross dressing, and you try to persuade him to put on women’s underwear, then you might be able to get there, but you are wasting a lot of time and effort.  So this is the difference.  Persuasion automatically assumes that you are starting off on the back foot.  You have to cajole someone and play all these tricks and games.  But if you’re an influencer, if you say less than is necessary, if you know the person and it’s all about them,  and you know where their interests are, first of all you’ll only pick targets who can be influenced.  And second of all, it will be a lot easier to influence them to do the certain, specific outcome you want them to. John McIntyre:OK.  So this will be like, in my case, if I’m trying to sell someone an AutoResponder, I could talk to just a business owner who maybe has a website, but has never heard of an AutoResponder before.  So I would have to go on that phone call, and, before I could even sell him anything, I’d have to convince him to believe in the benefits of the AutoResponder.  And I would lose most businessmen at that point.  Or, I could create a podcast on e-mail marketing and then I’d end up only jumping on the phone with people who already knew about e-mail marketing and e-mail AutoResponders, and then my only goal when I get on that phone call is just to find out what he wants and see if I can give it to him. Rob Hanly:That’s it. John McIntyre:That’s the influence, right there. Rob Hanly:It’s essentially understand that 95% of people are not your customer, are not who [crosstalk 00:27:20] John McIntyre:And that’s OK. Rob Hanly:That’s great. John McIntyre:People think that’s a bad thing, but that’s the best thing.  Because when you figure it out, we’re doing some Facebook ads right now so it’s kind of like, you’re not looking for everyone.  You’re not looking for every person in the United States over the age of 18, which is like 200,000,000 people.  You’re looking for only the people that care. Rob Hanly:That’s it.  So think of it this way, right?  Most people complain, “Oh, I don’t have enough customers.”  If you were to take your target demographic, let’s make this really actual.  If you’re bitching about not having enough customers, and your target demographic is 5,000 people, and you haven’t sold to 5,000 people, you have nothing to complain about.  Because there is still people in your target demographic who have not purchased from you.  Only after you’ve maximized your client acquisition, your client maximization, your client retention, should you even consider making everybody your customer.  Stick with the basics.  Stick with people who care.  Share with them things that they’re interested in, and then make the sale. John McIntyre:Unless you’re selling soap.  If you’re selling soap, you could sell to everyone. Rob Hanly:Incorrect. John McIntyre:Well, I mean like, just ordinary bath soap. Rob Hanly:Who wants ordinary bath soap?  Ordinary, boring people.  That’s why you’ve got Dove.  That’s why you’ve got Lush.  You got bath [crosstalk 00:28:18] John McIntyre:I like Dove. Rob Hanly:I don’t.  They have too much sunscreen here in Thailand.  I’m pale enough as it is. John McIntyre:All right, all right.  We’ll wrap it up here.  We’ve got a call to action right here and that is: Rob Hanly:Contact me. If you’re a business owner, if you’re interested in finding out how you can do the things that we’ve discussed on this call, contact me. RobHanly.com. John McIntyre:On RobHanly.com there’s a list they can sign up to and a form and all that wonderful stuff. Rob Hanly:Yeah, you can reach out to me.  By the way, it’s H A N LY.   John McIntyre:Rob Hanly.com  I have those links in the show notes at TheMcMethod.com.  Thanks for coming on the show, Rob.  We’ll see you again, I think in a couple weeks. Rob Hanly:Yeah, we will.  We’ll speak soon. John McIntyre:Sounds good, man. The post Episode #59: Rob Hanly on 3 Reasons Why Your Marketing Strategy is Going to Fail. appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


27 May 2014

Rank #9

Podcast cover

Episode #55 – Steven Kotler On Finding “Flow” State and Increasing Your Productivity 500%

What if you could get 500% more done? Imagine. You sit down to write an email. Brilliant copy cascades from your brain onto the page… You crush your scariest goals. You take breaks STRATEGICALLY – …and have business epiphanies while you’re off hiking in the woods. Meet Steven Kotler. Kotler is the author of two bestsellers: Abundance and Rise of Superman. He’s here to show you ONE thing: How to hack “flow” state. Now – Flow is the secret sauce behind all great innovations. It’s the edge of your current SKILL… …and the naked frontier outside your comfort zone. Would you like to get more done? Make more money in your business? Do you ever wonder “Where did my day go?” Tune in to this one. Get ready to explode your productivity… …and unlock more results than you thought possible. In this episode, you’ll discover: the shocking trait that gives top executives a 500% edge in productivity what the invent of jazz and can teach you about copywriting a proven framework to access FLOW today 2 crucial differences between optimal performance and “self help” one weird “pick-a-sentence” technique to stretch your creative limits how to make your subconscious work for you (HINT: you’ll need 10 seconds and a pen) the disturbing reason people today spend LESS than 5% of their work life in flow Mentioned: Steven Kotler Flow Research Collective MacGyver Method Steve’s book Abundance Flow Profile – free flow diagnostic tool to test how you experience flow Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Raw transcript: Download PDF transcript here. It’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder Guy.  I’m here with Steven Kotler. Now Steven Kotler is the author of a book called The Rise of Superman and another booked called Abundance.  The reason I wanted to get him on today was to talk about what he talks about in The Rise of Superman. Now this book is about what he calls The Rise of Superman obviously.  What does that mean though?  It means if you look at snowboarders or action sports, skateboarders, people who are rafting down rivers in Canada or climbing ice waterfalls, doing the crazy stuff.  Those wingtips, the skydivers with wings, which is extremely dangerous stuff where basically, people have to access a certain flow state to stay alive.  That’s what this book’s about. The interesting part, and where I thought we’d link it to marketing, copywriting and business, is that these people when they’re in there, these snowboarders, when they’re in this situation is that they have to access this flow state, these different brain chemicals or they’re going to die.  The idea is if we can learn how to hack that state, then we can become better writers, better musicians or better anything in life.  That’s the kind of natural link in there or how I’m trying to do it.  We’ll get into that in just a minute. Steven, how are you doing today? Steven: Really well, thank you.  How are you? John: Fantastic.  Good to have you on.  Before we get into this flow stuff, the listener might not be fully familiar with you.  Give the listener a little bit of a background on who you are and a bit about what you do. Steven: I’m an author and a journalist and the director of research for the flow genome project.  What I primarily work on is disruptive technology.  Sometimes I work on disruptive external technologies, vertical farming, that sort of stuff, stem cells, et cetera.  Sometimes I work on disruptive internal technologies.  It’s about flow states which are probably the most disruptive internal technology available to any of us. John: Okay, and the idea, I like how you frame it up as though it’s a technology.  That’s something that has evolved in the same way that technologies evolved and that it’s something that we can use in a very practical way.  This is kind of like peak performance.  Guys are like, I guess this is what Tony Robbins, guys like him, teach people how to do.  Is it the same kind of thing as that? Steven: No, not at all.  Let’s define flow states for your listeners.  Let’s give people some context and then I’ll answer your question.  Flow states are defined technically as optimal states of consciousness, where we feel our best and we perform our best.  I think everybody has had some experience with these states.  Have you ever lost an afternoon to a great conversation, or gotten so sucked into a work project that everything else falls away, then you’ve probably tasted the experience.  In flow, we become so focused on the task at hand that everything else disappears.  Action and awareness start to merge.  Our sense of self, self-consciousness, those disappear completely.  Time dilates, so sometimes it slows down and you get that freeze-frame effect like you’re in a car crash. Sometimes it speeds up and five hours will pass by in five minutes.  Throughout all aspects of performance, and that’s mental and physical, go through the roof.  Tony Robbins and the rest of those guys, they work A, primarily in self-help.  There’s a couple of key differences.  The first is that nothing I tell you here today are you going to apply on Monday and you’re life’s going to immediately start getting better.  It doesn’t work that way.  Flow is ubiquitous.  The state shows up everywhere in anyone provided certain initial conditions are met.  Unlike self-help which is about a 5%/10% improvement, flow offers a step function worth of change. Let me give you an example.  McKinsey and Company, the business researching firm, did a 10-year study of top executives.  They found top executives in flow are 500 times more productive than out of flow.  That means you could go to work on Monday, spend Monday in a flow state and take Tuesday through Friday off and get as much done as your steady state peers.  That is a massive application; 5 times more productive is a 500% increase in productivity.  Productivity is just one example.  You could go to creativity.  Studies show that flow provides about a 7X, so 700% boost in creativity.  Learning, the U.S. Military did studies with snipers in flow, and they found that snipers in flow learned 200 to 500% faster than normal. So, Malcolm Gladwell’s famous 10,000 hours to mastery, the research shows that flow can cut it in half.  On one end, flow is not self-help because it is a much bigger change.  The second reason is, flow is a little dangerous.  You have to understand.  We now understand kind of the neurobiology of flow, what’s going on underneath the surface.  As you pointed out in your introduction, one of the things that’s going on is a huge neurochemical dump.  You get five of the most potent neurochemicals the brain can produce, all at once in a flow state and that’s kind of the only time that happens.  Now these chemicals are all performance-enhanced chemicals, but they’re also the most addictive reward drugs the brain can produce. You’re getting a very, very deep and very, very addictive cocktail of neurochemistry.  When you’re working with flow you have to know what you’re doing because you’re playing with very fundamental biology, very powerful neurochemicals and it can go wrong, disastrously so. John: What’s an example?  Like let’s say I’m trying to hack this and I’m doing business, and I’m trying to hack this flow state.  What could go wrong? Steven: Well, let me give you a couple simple examples.  I have to back up actually.  To answer your question I have to tell you a little bit more about what we know about flow.  Flow science goes back about 150 years.  The first 120 of those years, or first 130 maybe, were spent figuring out what is the psychology of the state, right.  What are its characteristics and what are some of its psychological triggers?  What brings it on; what precipitates the state?  Out of this research into flow triggers, right, these are pre-conditions that bring on more flow, one of the things discovered is known as the challenge skills ratio.  Very simply, we get into flow follows focus, right.  It’s a state of massively heightened focus.  All these triggers are ways of driving attention into the now. One of the easiest ways to do that is the challenge skills ratio.  It means that when you approach a task, the challenge of the task should be slightly harder.  It should slightly exceed the skills you bring to bear, right.  To define flow frequently, you want to constantly be putting yourself into situations where you’re stretching but not snapping.  It’s a very slight gradient, but it’s a gradient nonetheless.  That means that when you’re looking for flow, when you’re seeking this state and trying to get more of this state in your life, you are taking, you’re climbing the ladder of escalating risk.  You are pushing yourself slightly farther, slightly farther, slightly farther, day-in and day-out, over and over and over again. It doesn’t matter what your profession is.  For action and adventure sport athletes, this pushed them into situations where if they make a mistake, they’re going to die, but you can see it.  When jazz moved into bee-bop, right.  This was a very, very big risk for those musicians.  When filmmaking in the 70s moved into auteur filmmaking.  Every time these guys pushed, they kept pushing and kept pushing, kept pushing and suddenly they got to the edges of things where they were suddenly betting their lives, in the case of some of the athletes, or their careers, in this case of some of the artists.  You see this with businessmen as well, right.  Businessmen who are good at this will constantly be seeking harder and harder and harder challenges. For myself as a writer, this means that I’m now starting to work on my eighth book.  The ideas I’m going at are far bigger than anything I’ve ever gone at before because I want to raise the challenge level, but there’s always that danger of, hey, maybe these ideas are just too big for me.  Maybe I shouldn’t be writing it, you know what I mean, like maybe I shouldn’t be going there. John: Yes. Steven: Maybe people won’t believe me.  Maybe I’m not.  Maybe I’m stretching too far, right.  There are a lot of other dangers; one of them is this escalating ladder of risk. John: Okay.  The interesting thing here is the ladder of escalating risk goes up.  Also, just the reward.  So, you’ve got a businessman who’s like Steve Jobs, he would be continually pushing the envelope where he’s taking on bigger and bigger and bigger challenges.  It’s risky on the one hand, but it’s also those people in their respective fields, whether it’s music or sports, I mean you mentioned this in the book.  It’s these people who are taking things forward, who are actually making the real change. Steven: Yes, that’s absolutely correct, right.  I mean you have to be living in this way, but the other thing is what you find when you scratch the surface, under all people in all disciplines; when researchers look at flow and what flow has affected change, flow has affected society, they now see flow with the heart of almost every world championship or gold medal that’s ever been one.  It underpins major scientific breakthroughs and accounts for significant progress in the arts.  All right, we’ve talked about what flow does in business.  Yes, everywhere you’re seeing people stretch, you’re seeing boundaries being broken, you’re also finding flow. This is, by the way, not a new finding.  Back in the 40s, the psychologist Abraham Maslow, up until he had come along early research on flow had mistakenly looked at it and thought we were looking at mystical experiences; something that was common in religious people, people on spiritual paths, but not common in normal people.  Then Abraham Maslow came along in the 40s and he was looking at this state and he wasn’t interested in religious people.  He was actually interested in successful people, across the board.  It doesn’t matter what you do, he was studying successful people.  He wanted to know what commonalities they shared. What he found … it didn’t matter who he talked to, and he looked at Einstein, Eleanor Roosevelt, Frederick Douglas, and on and on, he found … first of all, a lot of his subjects were atheists so the idea that this was a mystical experience kind of went out the window.  He found that across the boards, most of these people used massively heightened attention to produce altered states of consciousness that allowed them to do some of their best work.  Right, he was looking at flow and he found flow a commonality among all successful people.  This is only continued, right. In the 1960s and 70s, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, who was then the chairman in the University of Chicago Psychology Department, came along and he went around the world and did a global study asking everybody he could think of.  He started out with experts, rock climbers, chess players, dancers, et cetera, and then surgeons, and then he just started talking to everybody else.  He talked to people writing advertising copy.  He talked to people who were Italian grape farmers, Navajo sheep herders, Detroit assembly line workers, Japanese teenage motorcycle gage. Everybody gets it, right.  They all told him the same thing.  They were at their best, they felt their best when they were in this state of flow.  That is when they were doing their greatest work.  The point is not just that flow shows up when we’re pushing the great boundaries.  Of course it does, but it also shows up when anybody is pushing themselves to be their best. John: Right, and I love this.  You don’t have to be extraordinary to access this state.  It’s really just about within your personal realm.  There’s that image that a lot of people have seen actually.  This would be a good way to illustrate it.  You’ve got that circle which is your comfort zone, and you stay in there and not much is happening, but if you step outside it too far, then you break down.  If you’re just outside that edge, that’s when you start to access that state.  Everyone, even the people who are the smallest bill, who … there’s nothing seemingly exceptional about them, they have their own comfort zone.  If they step slightly outside of that, they’re going to start to access this state in varying degrees. Steven: Yes, absolutely.  We have to make it clear, most people have already experienced flow that probably didn’t know what was going on because it doesn’t show up all that frequently.  In that McKinsey study, they calculated that most people spend less than 5% of their work life in flow. John: Yes. Steven: Right, now that depends on your job, of course.  Coders, software coders, get into flow all the time.  It’s kind of fundamental.  Video game designers, very fundamental.  Surgeons, very fundamental.  Certain other jobs are more difficult.  I make my living as a writer; flow is fundamental.  I don’t survive as a writer without the state and if you look through my career, like go through the 1,000 magazine articles and the eight books, et cetera, et cetera, what you’re going to see is the ones that have won awards, the bestselling books, the articles that have won awards, all of them were written in flow states. John: Okay.  Let’s dive in right here then to this writing stuff.  So you’re a writer and you just mentioned that the best books you’ve read, the ones that have gotten the most attention are ones where you’ve been in a flow state.  This is a great area to dive into because a lot of people, when they sit down to say write an email, or write some advertising copy, or write a sales letter, they get tongue tied.  Most people, I mean it’s the whole classic writer’s block.  They just can’t get started.  What you’re talking about is that there are ways to access this flow state whereby, not only would you get started writing, but you’ll actually write the best stuff you’ve ever written.  How do you get into this? Steven: Okay. John: What does it mean for you to be in a flow state and then how do get there? Steven: Well, so you’re asking a number of different questions and I’m going to back it up further, right. John: Okay. Steven: Most people don’t … it starts with creativity.  As I mentioned earlier, flow states have triggers.  Creativity is a trigger for flow.  What that actually means under the surface, if you look at creativity coming from a neurobiological level, what you see is risk taking because you’re going to have to do something new.  You’re going to have to put it into the public sphere.  There’s risk taking involved.  Risk is actually a trigger for flow.  Every time we take a risk, the brain releases a neurochemical called dopamine.  This is one of the chemicals that underpins flow and that helps put you into the state.  Risk also focuses attention, it drives attention into the now, right.  Obviously there’s danger, so you get focused attention. Simultaneously, you see pattern recognition.  Pattern recognition is the ability to link ideas together in new and unusual ways.  So, creativity, this isn’t always the case but often is.  It’s the result of something novel bumping into something old.  So a novel idea, a novel experience bumping into an old thought creates something utterly new, right.  That’s how it works under the surface and to make those connections for the novel thought to trigger to bump into the old idea, you need pattern recognition.  Where flow comes into play here is it actually amplifies both sides of this equation. When we’re in the state of flow, we’re more actually in the state, the neurochemicals that underpin the state sort of surround the creative process.  You get, I mentioned dopamine, you also get a chemical called norepinephrine.  Ignore the fancy names but just what’s important is that these two chemicals together massively increase focus, right.  We’re paying more attention.  We’re taking in more information so that heightens our access to novel information.  We’re paying more attention to what’s going on in the world.  We’re seeing more, we’re taking in more information.  We have actually greater access to novelties, so we have greater access to the front end of the creative process. Another thing these chemicals do is they lower signal to noise ratios, which is a fancy way of saying they allow the brain to see more patterns, to make more connections between ideas.  Not only are you taking in more ideas, the brain is heightening its ability to link these ideas together.  You’re also getting another neurochemical called anandamide.  This increases lateral thinking.  This is our ability to link tangentially related ideas together.  These three chemicals essentially surround the creative process so when we’re in flow, all are heightened, right, so everything becomes easier. Flow is actually a technical term.  Most people don’t know this but the state got its name because when you’re in flow, every decision, every action leads seamlessly, fluidly from the last.  Flow feels flowing.  The ideas just kind of roll.  There are reasons for this neuro-biologically.  One of them is that your pattern recognition system is all jacked up, so one idea can lead to the next, can lead to the next, can lead to the next, right.  In flow, once you’re in that state, the writing is going to go really, really well. The question you’re asking is if you’re not in flow, if you’re facing the blank page, how do you get yourself into that state?  That’s a kind of a different question and it’s got a couple different answers.  I think there are three easy answers.  The first we talked about earlier is the challenge skills cell, right.  How do you push up the challenge level in flow?  When I’m talking to young writers and teaching them about this stuff, I always say there are two tricks I use all the time when I’m stuck in a dope and I don’t know what to do. First of all, good writing, I don’t care what you’re writing, means telling the truth.  You have to be slightly vulnerable.  How vulnerable is slightly vulnerable?  Well, I want the challenge to slightly exceed my skill level. I have discovered that for me, that means I have to tell enough of the truth that I’m always slightly uncomfortable with what I’m writing.  That feeling of uncomfortably doesn’t necessarily go away.  I have just learned to recognize it as a level of honesty that leads to good writing, compelling writing, something people want to read.  On top of it, I’m taking risks here.  I’m giving myself the space to push up the challenge level, to take risks and to use those things to slide into flow. Concurrently, one of the other things I often do to push up the risk level, and I think this is a very useful technique for anybody and it’s going to sound silly, but go to your bookshelf, close your eyes, shove your hand out, grab a book at random and open it up.  Look at the first sentence you see and steal that sentence.  Take that sentence, write it down; that’s the first sentence of what you’re writing, but you can’t take the words obviously because that’s plagiarism, so replace all the words with your words.  There’s a noun there, you write a noun.  If there’s a verb there, you write a verb. You’re trying to write in somebody else’s style and somebody else’s voice.  By doing that, you’re replacing their words with your words and once you get that first sentence, you’re going to try to keep going in there, in that voice.  It’s like wearing a costume.  People are much more audacious, bold, creative, whatever you want, when they’re wearing costumes because they’re slightly hidden.  If you start writing in somebody else’s voice and you make it about trying to write your best work in their voice, even though you’re not … don’t copy their sentences, copy their structure.  It requires pattern recognition which will release dopamine which will trigger flow. These are two very simple exercises.  The thing you have to remember about flow, this is fundamental neurobiology, this is evolutionary biology.  Everybody is hardwired for optimal performance.  Ubiquitous shows up everywhere, so all we’re doing is we’re playing with ways to drive attention.  These tricks, they may seem really slight and small.  It seems kind of weird that something so small could bring on something so big, but this is just the way we’re hardwired.  We’re hardwired to have easy access to the state. John: Yes. Steven: You just need to know what you’re doing. John: Absolutely.  One thing that works for me, and I think a few of the listeners will relate to this, is when I’m writing say an email versus a sales letter, I’m not sure how much you’ve experienced with advertising stuff, but say with the sales letter, I find it really hard to write them.  I get all tongue tied, but let’s say if I sit down to write an email which is a much more relaxed form of marketing, often how I start an email especially if I can’t think of anything to say, and I’ll do this for sales letters as well … I mean you could do this with an article or a book or anything you’re writing.  I’ll just start writing.  I’m sitting here in my room, it’s 3:33pm and I’m drinking a coffee, and here I am, I’m going to sit here and write you an email or write you a whatever. It’s almost like when you remove the plug and you just let things … I mean here’s that word, you just let things flow, things just start.  It’s kind of like the brain starts.  It’s all blocked up, but once it starts going, it really starts going.  Then I can go back after the fact and edit those first few sentences out, but initially, those first few sentences can be the catalyst to actually trigger the rest of the writing.  That’s sort of like the tricks, although that would be another trick. Steven: You’re absolutely correct.  There’s two things I want to mention.  One is it’s important to know that flow … a lot of people think of flow as a binary, like a light switch.  You’re either in the zone or you’re out of the zone.  It doesn’t work that way at all.  It’s actually a 4-stage cycle, and a couple of stages don’t feel flowy at all.  At the front end of a flow state is what is known as struggle.  This is a loading phase. John: Yes. Steven: It means you’re overloading the brain with information.  In the struggle phase as a writer for example, if I’m researching an article, this is when I’m reading books, I’m reading articles, I’m doing hundreds of interviews.  I’m trying to figure out what the structure of what I’m going to write, what shape it’s going to take.  You’re really driving yourself to the absolute brink of frustration.  Then you talked about something very interesting, and this is the second stage of the flow cycle.  Once you’ve overloaded yourself and you’re at the brink of frustration and you can’t learn anymore, and you can’t take it anymore, you need to take your mind off the problem.  You actually need to relax. The second stage of the cycle is known as release and it happens, you know, some people get all their inspiration in the shower.  They’ve been working all day and they go into the shower.  It’s because by taking your mind off the problem, what is happening in flow, one of the things that is happening is we’re trading the conscious for the subconscious mind.  We’re handing over information processing duties to our subconscious, right.  We’re doing this for a lot of different reasons.  The conscious mind is very energy expensive.  It’s very slow, it’s not very fast.  The subconscious is much faster, it’s much more energy efficient. The brain is always trying to conserve energy.  The minute you relax and take your mind off the problem, brink and make this switch.  The subconscious is much faster than the conscious mind so we can find those patterns much, much easier.  That release period triggers the flow state itself which is the third stage in the cycle; great, huge high and this is followed by a deep low.  On the back end of the flow cycle is a recovery phase.  Those neurochemicals that we spoke about earlier are expensive to the brain to produce.  You need nutrition, you need sunlight and you need vitamins, et cetera, et cetera.  It takes a little while for the brain to be able to build them up again. During this period, you go from this very big high to this deep low.  A lot of people have a lot of difficulty kind of navigating that low.  Earlier we talked about the dark side of flow.  That low is part of the dark side.  You have to basically learn that you need to go through that recovery.  That’s, by the way, where that amplified learning takes place and if you’re stressed out during recovery because you don’t feel as great as you used to, you’ll block that learning cortisol which is the stressed form on blocked learning. Interestingly, you pointed out, you go back and you edit later.  This recovery phase when you’re really down is perfect because in flow, pattern recognition is all fired up so you have lots of ideas.  Not every one of them is a great one.  It feels like they’re all great, right.  This recovery phase, it’s actually, especially for writers I think, perfect because it’s a perfect time to go back and edit and see what was a good idea and what was a bad idea.  It’s interesting that the process you just described sort of maps onto the flow cycle itself. John: I absolutely love this idea.  I have this so many times with, not just writing, but just life in general where I’m frustrated and I’m depressed and I’m just pissed off that I can’t figure something out.  Then, maybe I chill out, I go for a walk or I’m off doing groceries or something like that, and all of the sudden it’s like the mind just starts firing.  It just goes into overdrive and it’s like, boom, there’s the solution.  Then I get home … Steven: Yes. John: … I sit down to work or I start toying … I often get it in conversations with someone.  It’s like the idea clicks in and all of the sudden, you see everything in a whole new light.  I love to remember those moments. Steven: Let me take it one step further for you.  This is not directly related to flow, though it tends to produce flow states on the back end.  Two things to know.  First of all, if you can’t get started, if it’s not clicking, there’s one of two reasons.  The first is that you haven’t done enough homework.  You really haven’t filled the brain with enough ideas for it to start pattern matching and making connections between ideas.  Sometimes if the walk, if those little halves that you’re talking about, aren’t working, it’s because you actually need to do more research.  You need to load the brain up more. Simultaneously, if it’s not clicking, if you’ve already loaded the brain up and you’re so frustrated, you still can’t find it and nothing’s coming together, you have to understand that this pattern matching and the pattern recognition is fundamental to the brain.  It’s what neurons do at a basic level so there’s nothing fancy going on here and you can actually program the system.  If you want to find out more about this, you can Google the MacGyver Method, which is one guy who’s teaching it.  The simple idea here is, and I do this by the way at the end of every writing day, right before I’m about to go up for the end of work, pull out a blank piece of paper and I give my subconscious an assignment. If I can’t write the opening line to my new book, I say subconscious, I would like you to write out the opening line to my next book.  I’d like to wake up tomorrow morning, start writing and have that line please.  Then you write out the question.  You want to write … I use a numerical system, kind of as many things.  You may not know what the opening line is but you know you want it to include the word peripatetic and you know, whatever descriptors, feelings, guts, whatever you have about this, write that down too.  Then, be done for the day.  What is going to happen is at some point, you’re going to forget that you did that, it’s going to click over from the conscious mind into the subconscious mind, right, writing it down. That’s why you’re writing it down.  By bringing in the tactical sense with everything else, you’re just kind of giving memory a little bit of a toehold into it.  You’re saying hey, this is important.  Do something with this.  Pattern recognition will take over.  Wake up the next morning just as you planned out, start writing.  It doesn’t matter what you’re writing, start writing.  You will find that the answer to your question, use of that line or whatever, will show up within the first couple of sentences because your brain has done the work while you were asleep, or while you were whatever, and you just have to kind of kick back in and access those files. This is simple brain function, but you can program, especially as a writer.  You can program your brain to problem solve for you creatively while you do other things. John: Yes, I love it.  It’s just great how simple it is.  What I’ve been telling myself recently is, I’ve got to take time off, but I know the brain’s still working.  I guess it’s giving me the permission almost to kind of go and relax, go bowling or go … I haven’t been bowling in two years. Steven: Well, you’re super right.  We teach this.  One of the things that’s really hard, especially for high-performing individuals, is understanding that flow has a cycle and that the brain works a certain fundamental way.  You can’t short circuit the process, right.  If you want to go back into a flow state, you have to go all the way through this cycle.  Most of the brain is like that, most of the things in the brain work that way.  There’s a process, there’s that cycle. John: Yes. Steven: It’s very useful to know how learning works under the surface, how creativity works under the surface, how flow works under the surface, because once you can figure that out, if you have to do something creative for a living, there are … not shortcuts, but there are ways to kind of maximize the process, right. John: It’s almost like you’ve got to … I was just thinking then that you  just learn to embrace it.  Instead of thinking like, well, how do I get on a high every single day, it’s like well, what stage am I in and how can I just maintain to keep showing up each day, keep showing up to work despite the fact that I feel frustrated because I know that in a few days, or next week, that state’s going to trigger, then I’m going to get a whole bunch of work done.  Then afterwards, I’ll be able to relax, do some editing, chill out, take a nap, all that sort of stuff.  You can embrace it, ride the roller coaster. Steven: Yes, absolutely.  On a certain level, you don’t want to take the roller coaster personally, right.  That’s really the truth of the matter.  You can’t really escape it, as far as I can tell, but you can’t take it too personally.  You need to understand that it’s a process and that what you’re feeling as frustration, for example, on the front end flow state, when you can’t start writing, when nothing’s coming together, that frustration is actually part of the process.  It’s a good thing and not a bad thing. John: Yes. Steven: Knowing this, over time and kind of practicing with it and living into I guess, gives you the confidence to kind of handle the emotions, have the emotional control to kind of get through it.  The other thing that’s so important, as you pointed out, you need that recovery phase.  You often see this in business.  I was talking to a salesman a couple days ago, there were just really high-stakes sales, and he was talking about how he’ll get into flow state.  He’ll go on a tear.  He’ll quadruple his sales and blow his quotas out of the water, 300% greater for a period of time.  On the back end of that, when the quarter’s over, he’ll actually need that deep recovery period, but instead he works for an organization where they say, oh my God, you did so great.  Here, here’s half the territory and we’re going to triple your quotas. There’s no time for recovery, the challenge level goes way up and he’s blocked from flow.  We talked earlier about action adventure athletes.  One of the reasons these guys got so good at getting in the flow so repeatedly had nothing to do with anything they were doing consciously.  It’s their sports are very weather dependent.  If you’re going to ride big waves, you’d have to wait for the storms to come in.  If you’re going to ski these amazing lines, you need perfect powder.  What happens is, storms blow in, everybody charges really hard for a few days, gets in the flow, does whatever, the storms leave and there’s a built-in recovery period on the back end. This doesn’t happen in our daily life very often and high performing people rarely give themselves time to recover, and it’s really important.  It’s really important to know that when you chill out and go back and edit, and kick your feet up and relax, that’s critical.  Just like taking your mind off the problem is critical.  These are counterintuitive things that kind of go against what high performers normally do which is just buckle down and buckle down, drive forward and drive forward, through hell or high water. John: Yes. Steven: You have to know that slow and steady wins this race. John: Absolutely.  It’s kind of like, yes, ever player or high performer has been through that stage where all they want to do is just work, work, work, work, work, because they’re a hustler.  If they just work harder than anyone else, they’re going to get there.  Then eventually, everyone realized that when you do that and you burn out, and then you crash, then it’s much worse than if you’d taken a short break every now and then. Steven: Yes. John: Cool. Steven: Absolutely. John: Alright, well let’s wrap it up here.  I really appreciate you coming on to talk about flow.  Before we wrap this up though, give the listener a heads up about where they can go to learn more about your book, or books, and then we’ll say goodbye. Steven: Absolutely.  You want to check out riseofsuperman.com, stevenkotler.com, or my organization, theflowgenomeproject.co.  On the flow genome project website, there’s a flow diagnostic free-of-charge.  Anybody can sign up and take it, and it basically is kind of a quick survey that looks at the categories in your life, the things that you do, that you like to do, where you’re most likely to find flow.  It’s a great primer if people want to get started. John: Cool, I’m going to go check that out right after we sign-off here.  One other thing that’s a little bit unrelated to flow is your other book, Abundance, which I read two years ago.  I absolutely loved it.  It put me in the best and extremely positive state just about the future of mankind.  If you’re looking for something that’s going to pump you up and get you excited, go and check out Steven’s book, Abundance, as well.  Steven, thank you.  Thanks for coming on the show. Steven: Thanks for having me. The post Episode #55 – Steven Kotler On Finding “Flow” State and Increasing Your Productivity 500% appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


29 Apr 2014

Rank #10

Podcast cover

Episode #54 – Terry Dunlap On How A Hacker Makes $88,312 with Autoresponders

You f***ing rock. That’s the subject line Terry sent me. Outta the blue. Why? …Because the Email Marketing Podcast just made him a TRUCK-load of cash. Who is Terry Dunlap? Terry’s a hacker. No…not a “life hacker.” I mean…he’s at Starbucks, nursing a caramel macchiato and watching you browse Facebook… …from HIS laptop. (In this episode he tells us how.) But Terry’s not just a wicked-smart techie… He’s also a McMethod subscriber. Terry had been listening to the podcast for about year… One day – He decided to give this “autoresponder” thing a try. Boy, did it pay off. Check this: In just 5 months – Terry made $88,312 from his autoresponder “experiment.” Here’s the funny part: Terry kept his emails STUPID-simple. …and they still paid like crazy. The lesson? You DON’T have to make your autoresponder complicated… …but you do have to TAKE ACTION. Now – Here’s my challenge to you: Listen to Terry’s story. How can you do the same? Get inspired. Think bigger for YOUR business. If this episode doesn’t get you excited about email marketing… …I don’t know what will. In this episode, you’ll discover: 2 tips to write autoresponders for physical products how to build an email list from zero this weekend  a weird “un-boxing” trick to bake videos into your email marketing the “Give the what, Sell the ___” framework for profiting from info products how to seduce your prospects – even if you DON’T have a product to sell  one clever “A or B” call-to-action that helped Terry bank 88 grand with email one eye-opening question to stick in your welcome email the “icing on the cake” that got Terry’s list to buy  Mentioned: Want to ask Terry a question? Contact him at Terry.dunlap at gmail dot com Chris Ducker Bootcamp Terry’s video unboxing the Reaver Pro DEAF CON Hacker Conference Black Hat Conference Tactical Network Solutions Constant Contact Campaign Monitor Scientific Advertising Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Raw transcript: Download PDF transcript here. It’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder Guy. I’m here with Terry Dunlap. Now, Terry isn’t an email marketing expert that you might have heard of. Terry sent me an email, it must have been, I think, six weeks ago, maybe two months ago, right before I was due for a trip to Sydney to catch up with the family. This email, I was reading this out, I remember cracking up when I got at the subject line. He’s dropping f-bombs in the subject line, and then throughout his email it’s great, mentioning numbers and talking about his business, and we’re going to talk about that today. The reason I got him on was that the results he’s gotten, which I’ll let him tell the story, mostly, from what I understand, from just applying what he’s learned from the Email Marketing Podcast, so I thought, instead of just go back and forth with a few emails, why not get him on the podcast and get him to share what he’s done, what’s worked for him, what he’s applied, how he’s applied and all those kind of things, so then you as the listener can think and get really, really, really fucking inspired and then go and apply the same in your business and make a whole ton of money just like Terry? We’ll get into that. Terry, how are you today? Terry: I’m doing outstanding, man. How are you doing? John: Fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. Terry: That is cool. I want to say, before we get into the meat of this stuff, that you are absolutely right. I am not an email marketer, I have never done any of this stuff before, and I have to say that when I listen to your podcast or anybody’s podcast about internet business and marketing and things of that nature, when I read reviews, I look for people that have actually implemented this stuff and what the results have been. I thought it was worthwhile for me to come on here and tell your audience, just by listening to your podcast, and I subscribe to your emails, too, once I got a feel for how you operate and everything you and your guests have provided, I implemented and had fantastic results, and I mean it’s a money-making machine, my friend. Now we’re not talking the likes of a John McIntyre himself or somebody like Amy Porterfield or David Siteman Garland or those types of people, but it’s starting. I had to start somewhere. I started back in October, and things are just taking off. What I basically did was I had a physical product that I wanted to sell. It’s basically a product, now I can describe it here later, but the product is tailored to the hacking community. It’s a very nichey product that hackers love. I followed your advice. I basically put up a landing page and I announced that this product was coming out. I did a very simple Google AdWords campaign because I don’t have a blog, I don’t have a podcast. I’m a nobody when it comes to this internet stuff, so the only way I knew to build traffic was to actually start building my list with paid traffic. Anytime these hackers would look for certain keywords, our ad was the only one that ever popped up, so we’re getting people added to the email list. While I’m doing this, I’m listening to you, I’m following your emails, I’m listening to what you’re giving as advice, and so I start to implement an autoresponder into my campaign as these people are joining the list. I think I did seven or 10 emails that basically kept people intrigued, gave them tidbits of information, kept them always on the hook at the end, made it a story. When it came time to launch, this thing just exploded. Let me give you some numbers here. I actually launched this online live October 1st of just last year, so we’re talking six months ago barely. In total sales, $88,312.88. If you break it out, that’s roughly 15 grand a month, my friend, from selling a physical product. It’s killer. To be honest, I owe this success to you. Seriously. There’s no doubt about it. In fact, the whole autoresponder series thing works, the email marketing works. I’ve actually now launched a completely online training class for people that want to learn how to hack wireless networks. It’s a seven-day boot camp class and I’m doing the exact same thing. I have a landing page up basically that says “Registration is currently closed. If you want to get on the waiting list, you can join,” and then as people join the waiting list, I’m actually writing the email responder series now, but I’ve learned from the first set of autoresponders that I created to be a little more enticing with the subject line and to do a little more tease in the content, say, “Here’s something you need to know,” but I don’t show them the ‘how’ unless they actually join the boot camp. I give them the information they need, but I don’t show them the ‘how,’ unless they join the boot camp. Dude, this shit works. John: All right, just that right there, that last bit that you tapped on, which is the tell the ‘what’ and sell the ‘how,’ this is such a classic marketing thing, and so simple, but it works. Terry: It works. I think the other thing that I’ve learned from you, too, and I’m applying not only in email marketing, but when I need to communicate with someone I may not have a connection with, like I did with you, I had a very intriguing subject line, did I not? John: Absolutely. Terry: Now, you’re familiar with Chris Ducker, right? John: Yeah. Terry: I listen to his podcast as well. He gives some really valuable content, too. Unfortunately, I’m usually listening to him while I’m driving to work in the morning, and so I have to re-listen and then take notes and stuff after the fact. I sent him an email, and I didn’t expect him to actually talk about it on his show, but the subject line of the email I sent to him was, “I HATE Chris Ducker!” exclamation point and “hate” in all caps. I told him in the email, I said, “You know? I really hate your show because it has such valuable content that when I’m listening to it driving, it pisses me off that I can’t write anything down because I’m driving.” He even admitted that he was hesitant on actually opening and reading the contents of that email based on the subject line, but it got his attention and it got a mention on his show, which I never intended. John: This is great. I love this. He replied to your email? Terry: Your stuff works. It is the subject line and it is the content, the hook, you get them, and like you said, give them the ‘what,’ ‘where’, ‘when’ but not the ‘how.’ If they want the ‘how,’ they can pay for it. John: Let me back up. Let’s just recap a little bit. You’ve got this product for wireless networks. This is the Reaver Systems, right, the original product? Terry: Yeah. John: You set up a Google AdWords campaign basically to build who is searching for terms related to this. You drove them to a landing page which offered them something. What did it offer them, by the way? Terry: It actually didn’t offer them anything. I wasn’t giving anything away. It was basically a description of what the product was and that we were going to be launching soon, and if you wanted to get in on special pricing and be one of the first people to get your hands on this limited release edition, add your name to the email list. John: So a bit of suspense, and they join your email list. What do you from there? What were you doing with Email 1? Was there anything special going on? Terry: Email 1, some of your listeners in the States who are tech-savvy might know this conference. Have you ever heard of DEF CON? John: I have, but that’s an electro dance music festival in Sydney, but you’re not talking about that one, are you? Terry: It’s not that “def con.” Every year in the U.S. out in Las Vegas, there’s a hacker conference. The first one is Black Hat, which is where all your professional security pentesters and stuff show up at. Then after that is where all your hardcore hackers show up. They’re the people that are wearing their black and white and their piercings and all that kind of stuff and show up and hang out at the scene. There’s talks about hacking the latest and great, GSM phones and hacking Android devices and television sets and all that kind of stuff. Some of our people actually go out there and either give talks or we have a booth and talk about what our company does. There was a rumor, before we launched this, that someone had said, “Hey, I heard that there’s a new Reaver Pro coming out,” because prior to this physical product, all it was was a software download that we had for some of our customers. We started getting a brand-new target audience out of DEF CON, and when they started signing up on the mailing list, the very first email that went out was simply titled “Rumors.” I’ll quickly run through this. I’ll read the first one. You open up the email entitled “Rumors” and it begins this way: “Many of you have emailed me asking if rumors are true. ‘Is it true that a new Reaver Pro was seen at DEF CON last week?’ Well, I don’t know. I wasn’t there, so I can’t speak about what was or was not at DEF CON, but what I do know is that our guys in the lab who’ve been hacking up some Reaver Pro goodness all summer long, it’s a tasty treat that is cooking to near perfection.” “I can’t go into many details now simply because I let our hackers do whatever they want, when they want. Our deal is this: partners don’t ask questions and the hackers in the lab will crank out awesome stuff. Think I’m joking? Then see what happens when I leave Craig Heffner to do what he wants to do. Here’s his talk at Black Hat last week,” and it’s a link to his actual talk that he gave how he actually hacks IP cameras Hollywood-style, where he can literally take over an IP camera … John: What’s an IP camera? Terry: … increase the image, and then be able to do whatever you want without the image actually being seen. John: What’s an IP camera? Terry: An internet camera. If you go out and buy some of these cameras … John: Oh, a webcam? You mean like this webcam on my Mac? Terry: Like a webcam, yes. Like even security cameras. A lot of corporations have security cameras to monitor the perimeter or industrial control systems, or even nanny cams or something like that. Our guy had discovered a way to hack these things and presented a talk at DEF CON. What he did on stage was he’d go through his whole technical talk of how to do this, and then the demo was, he’d set a can of beer in front of the camera that was supposed to be protecting and monitoring this can of beer. Then he does his hack. The frame freezes, and then he can take the physical can away, but yet to you and me, it looks like it’s still there. That was the first email that went out. The second email that went out basically started enticing people about what the new features are going to be, and it was simply titled “Black Box.” I said, “Where do I start? Let’s start with one of the coolest new features of Reaver Pro. Man, is this cool. Once we find the WPA passphrase to the target network, Reaver Pro will automatically connect to the network and then email you the passphrasing keys to an email account that you configure ahead of time. Consider my mind blown. Is that cool or what?” and I go on. This is the style that I have. Then I have it on boxing video where I actually talk about, ‘Hey, we just got the master copy from the manufacturer’s. Here’s what it looks like,’ and then actually put a YouTube video up there for that, and then how to actually use it. Preorders haven’t even started yet, so I’m getting people, ‘Here’s what it looks like,’ ‘Here’s what it can do,’ ‘Here’s all the cool stuff that you can do with this.’ Then finally I open it up for preorders, and then I announce to people that it’s actually shipping. Using the landing page and the email autoresponder series, I think we ended up, prior to launch, with about a thousand-plus emails on the list, and I’d say probably 20% of those actually ordered during the preorder. Now it’s getting to the point where it’s actually … It’s self-sustaining. There’s no more mailing list to join. The word has gotten out, people have written blog reviews about it, people have posted their YouTube reviews about it. Now it’s just organic. I don’t have to run the ads anymore. We’re selling probably anywhere, on the low side, five to as many as 15 of these a day at 75 bucks a pop. John: Damn. Basically, it’s a product launch sequence in this site. If someone goes there now, they will just go through that launch sequence, even though it’s already on [inaudible 00:13:56]? How does it work? Terry: No, now if you go through it, you just buy it. You just click the “Buy” button. The whole launch sequence for this particular product is done. Now I’m working on the one for our Wi-Fi boot camp class where I teach you as an end user how you can use a very basic Linux operating system distribution on your laptop and, with built-in tools, be able to sniff wireless networks, collect packets, look for usernames and passwords on those networks, and how to create what’s called a “man in the middle road access point,” where if you’re in a hotel, like Hilton HHonors or whatever is the AP name, I teach you how to create that exact same setup so people think they’re connecting to the hotel but they connect to you, and you sniff all their traffic on your laptop as you tether it to your phone or mobile device for an actual internet connection. That’s called the TNS Seven-Day WiFi Bootcamp. Registration is currently closed and so we’re adding people to the mailing list there. I’m working on that email sequence right now for the autoresponders. I didn’t wait to get my autoresponder done, because the most important thing I think you could do now is start collecting the email addresses. Don’t wait. If you have an idea, you think you’ve got something that the market wants, number one, put up a landing page. Number two, if you don’t have an email list, you don’t have a blog, you don’t have a podcast, you don’t have a YouTube channel, then I think the easiest and fastest way is to set up a Google AdWords account. Figure out what keywords you need, and then run it for seven days and see what happens. See if you get people adding names to your email list. That’s what I’m doing with the boot camp. We’re getting people adding names to the list. It seems to be working out. Let me give you a quick rundown of some of the subject lines that I’m going to use for the boot camp sequence. I’ve got 10 emails here. I’ve got half of them fleshed out already. The Subject Line 1, of course, is “Welcome to the list,” and that’s pretty generic. Second one is, “I don’t do Windows.” Basically the gist of that email is, ‘In this course, we don’t use the Windows operating system. We use the Linux operating system.’ Then the next one is, “Pick the right wireless card,” because people that are in this community that do wireless penetration testing, wireless hacking, they’re all fixated on one particular brand card that’s out there that’s very popular and I dispel the myth that ‘This is not the card you think that you should be using.’ There’s a couple open source tools that people use called Aircrack and Kismet. In this next email, the subject line says, “But I already use Aircrack and Kismet,” and I basically dispel the myth that ‘Hey, they’re good tools, but you really should know how they work under the hood, because the next email subject line explains why you need to know that.’ This subject line is called “When the excrement hits the oscillator.” ‘When the shit hits the fan.’ That basically talks about a story where I was actually out in the field doing a penetration test one time against a client. I didn’t have an internet connection and my tool shit the bed. I basically needed to open up a terminal, get on a command line and figure out how to do all this stuff just with a black-and-white terminal. No GUIs, nothing. ‘So understanding what you learned in the boot camp will help you when the shit hits the fan.’ Then there’s one called, “Hey, where’s the Easy button?” It talks about a story where I was teaching a class and they saw the power of working on a command line but then they wanted to know, ‘Can’t we create a GUI, an easy button?’ and I talk about the pros and cons of that. Then there’s one called “How fast can you hop?” There’s a concept in the wireless world that when you’re monitoring wireless networks, you need to channel-hop. Once I show you how to do this, it’s a piece of cake. That one is, ‘Do you have a big or little pipe?’ That one basically talks about, when you’re actually collecting the packets, how much space do you have to store it in basically more efficient ways to store the data that you’re collecting? Then the final email in this series is, “How to have fun at Starbucks,” which basically goes into detail how you can set up a rogue access point in Starbucks, mimic the Starbucks access point, have people that come in that are sipping on their cappuccinos and lattes connect to you instead of the Starbucks network, and then you see everything that they do, all their web traffic, all their banking, everything. That’s the series for this particular funnel. John: I’m going to say it right now. What it looks like you’re doing is you’re just going through each module of this course for each day, and you create an email around it that’s really just preselling that, and then you’re going to link to, say, I’m guessing a sales page where they can sign up and actually purchase the course when it’s ready. Terry: Yeah. Now what I do is, if you’re on the boot camp page, you should see where it says that “Registration is closed. Add your name to the waiting list” at the very top. What we’ll do is, as people add their name, they will basically get this email series which, you’re right, it corresponds to each of the particular modules. I’ll tell the ‘what,’ ‘where,’ ‘when,’ ‘why’ but not the ‘how,’ and then I’m going to announce, date yet to be determined, when we’re going to have a webinar. The webinar is going to be one-hour long, so everybody on the mailing list can come and see exactly what the program is all about. I go into a lot more detail, I provide more specific links to open source resources. Basically it ends by saying, ‘When you leave this webinar, I have literally given you everything that you need to do what I teach you in the boot camp. You have two choices now. You can take the information I gave you and by trial and error figure it out on your own. It’s going to be slow, but you’ll figure it out, and you’ll probably be better educated for it.’ ‘Or if you want to learn it quickly, you want your hand held, you want a step-by-step seven-day process to take you from zero to hero, then join the boot camp. I’ve given you everything, the links, the sources, the webpages and all that stuff to go learn this all on your own, or you can join the boot camp and I can teach it to you in seven days.’ John: The thing that’s so badass about this is you’ve done one thing, that’s worked with email marketing. ‘What’s the next thing? Now I’m going to do this seven-day boot camp.’ It sounds like, I can hear it in your voice, you are so excited about it, about email marketing, what the whole thing is going to do. I’m thinking you probably got, what, 10 … How many ideas have you got that you think you could roll out over the next … if you had all the time in the world? Terry: Jesus. I’d have to go get my book. I have pages. I literally have pages of shit that I want to do. I just don’t have enough time in the day. If you listen to Chris Ducker, his solution is hire all these goddamned VAs. I can’t manage that many people. Now, I’ll give you guys some little backstory here. The company Reaver Systems is actually a subsidiary of my larger company, which is actually a government contracting company here in the United States. We cater a lot our reverse engineering skills and our hacking skills to the military and the intelligence community, but we wanted this to be completely separate. My partners and I said, ‘Okay, if we want this to be completely separate from this other business, that’s fine,’ because it’s a completely different clientele, completely different mentality, completely different skillset to market to these people, because I remember, when I joined your email list, your very first email says, “Hey, what’s your problem? Reply to this email and let me know what it is.” I sent you a very detailed explanation that we deal with the intelligence community. Trying to get these people to get in touch in front of the right people is painful, and of course, I didn’t expect you to have an answer, but this is a completely different market. We made the decision, ‘Hey, let’s spin off the Reaver product, create a company just around that, and then, Terry, you figure out how to market it, you figure out how to sell it,’ and that’s pretty much what I’ve been doing, and thanks to you, John, and all your guests and everybody you’ve had on, I’ve been able to take bits and pieces and adapt it and, goddamn it, the shit’s working. John: One thing that’d be cool to touch on is what were some of the key light bulb moments or the things you were like, ‘Oh, that’s how it works?’ What were some of those? Maybe challenges that you had, and then you listened to the podcast and you figured something out and it clicked for you? Terry: To be honest, I think the biggest challenge I had was finding an email provider that had an easy-to-use autoresponder series. I started off with Constant Contact. What a pain in the ass that system was. I dropped it after a while. On a side note, it’s funny because they followed up with me with a phone call and said, “Hey, why did you cancel? If you give us some feedback, we’ll send you $100 gift cards.” I was like, “Okay, fine.” I laid it on the line, man. I was like no holds barred. At the very end, they said, “Wow, that’s pretty brutal, but hey, thanks for your honesty. We wish everybody would give us feedback like that.” Then I went to Campaign Monitor, which was my very first autoresponder series that I implemented successfully. Let me back up a second here. It dawned on me about the whole autoresponder series when I first prototyped the boot camp almost a year ago. What I had done was basically made some very short how-to videos basically along the same content that you see on the website there in the seven different modules, but they were just like private YouTube videos, and I had some beta testers that I wanted to use. I used Campaign Monitor and their autoresponder series. The idea came from Chris Ducker where he had his new business boot camp series. You’d join his email list and he’d send you three or four things about how to start your online business. I was like, ‘I like that idea. I’m going to steal that idea. I’m going to do it for this how to do Wi-Fi [inaudible 00:24:39] and Wi-Fi hacking with my beta group.’ I would just send out an email in an autoresponder series every 24 hours that linked to the next video. These guys loved it and it’s like, ‘Wow! This is awesome!’ but I didn’t want to do it just strictly delivering videos via email. I wanted to set up a membership site where people could join and interact and I could have live office hours and actually talk to these people. I think it was the combination of listening to your methodology and following the examples in your email letters, combined with the boot camp concept that Chris Ducker uses over on his site. When those two just combined, it was like, ‘Wow, I could actually do this with anything,’ and then the fact that it actually worked, and dude, fucking made money with a physical product with a bunch of hackers around the globe. Dude, I’m shipping these things everywhere. You name a country, I’ve shipped it. I did the beta test. That seemed to work. The beta testers loved it. I did it for real with the physical product and we’re making money. Now we’re getting ready to do it with the boot camp, but like I said, if you join the wait list now, you’re not going to get the autoresponders series because I’m still working on it. John: You know what? I’m going to sign up for it now. Terry: I like the methodology of where it’s just quick little sentences, because my first responder series was paragraphs of stuff, as I was reading it to you, but now they’re short, quick jabs, just like your emails. John: By the way, I’ve just signed up to your list. I want to see your emails when they come out. Just one of the things that people get mixed up with, they think they need to be some copywriter to write a good email, but you’re not a copywriter, you’re a hacker. I read the article that you sent me before we got on the phone, which would be a bit of fun to talk about, but you don’t have to be a writer. You just have to get on there and basically, it’s like you’re having a conversation with a buddy at the bar, you’re three or four beers in and you’re just talking shit. Terry: Yes. Exactly. That’s exactly it. It works. I cannot envision a scenario where it wouldn’t work. Now I haven’t used an autoresponder series with other CEOs and stuff of other major companies or anything like that, but given the opportunity, of course, hell, I’m going to try it, because you don’t know if it’s going to work unless you try it. So far, it’s been working for me and I can’t complain. Dude, you’ve been badass. John: You said it, man. You [inaudible 00:27:26]. You execute it, man. Terry: That’s true. I personally think a lot of problem that people have when they’re trying to start the business, because there’s so many different ways you can go, to be honest with you, in order for me to concentrate and actually execute like you said, I think that’s the problem. A lot of people have intentions to do this, good intentions, they want to do it, but for some reason they get bogged down at the execution phase. I’ll tell you right now, one of the things I had to do to concentrate is I had to shit-can a bunch of the podcasts I was listening to and I had to get off of people’s email lists that I was on just so I could concentrate. To be honest, I basically have my podcast down to you, Chris Ducker and the guys that do the Business Growth Podcast or something like that. That’s it. Otherwise, you’re just overwhelmed. You are just overwhelmed, you don’t know where to start, this guys says to do this, this guy says to do that. You need to focus. Just get rid of the extraneous background noise, find the people that you seem to relate to, like I did with you, and just listen to you and listen to Chris Ducker and one other one, and that’s it, and then implement. I’ll tell you, the biggest thing that I think helped me execute on this was I actually sat in my garage one day on a nice, warm day with a microbrew beer and I sketched out on a pad of paper what modules do I think I need to cover, how long do I think it’s going to take me to create, and then broke out a calendar and started putting dates on the calendar, and then held myself accountable to make sure everything got done by these certain days. It worked. John: Absolutely, absolutely. All from a simple autoresponder. What did you have, seven emails, 10 emails in there? Terry: Yeah, seven, and this next one that I’m working on is 10, but like I said, I only have the bodies of the first four or five already fleshed out, and then I go back and change them, I try and tighten them up. I’m listening to people like you and others talking about, ‘Hey, go read the classic copywriting books,’ the Gary Halberts of the world in scientific advertising. I grabbed this stuff and I downloaded it on my Kindle and read it when I can. You read it and it’s like, ‘Wow, this shit hasn’t changed in decades. It’s the same concept. The medium is different.’ Instead of being a direct mail piece, you’re getting the freaking electronic direct mail piece. God, it was outstanding. John: Yeah. There’s no magic to it. It’s so simple. You can’t package this up. What we’re talking about right here and selling is like a $3,000 product because it’s so, so simple: bit of traffic, bit of people who have a problem that needs solving, and then you need a way to connect them to your product. You have a product that you need to sell them, and you just need a way to connect them, and the autoresponder is an easy way to connect them. That’s it. That’s not a $3,000 product. That’s the problem. People want that huge, big solution when really, then you sit down, get a bit of traffic, have something to sell, write a few emails. Terry: I’m telling you, I think a lot of people think that they have to have a huge email list before they can do any of this stuff, and that is simply not true, because when I started the Reaver Pro stuff, granted, we collected a lot of emails over time before we actually launched. That’s fine. The boot camp, for example, when I did the first iteration of the boot camp, I had maybe 300 email addresses, and then I launched to that list. I got 50 people to sign up and pay anywhere depending on what webinar they went to, I had different price points to see what worked and what didn’t work, it was as low as $47 and as high as $297. I got people all over the board that were paying. I think the sweet spot happens to be right around $97 is where most people seem to be comfortable with. Here was a list, I just simply put up a landing page, collected email addresses, Google AdWords, had 300 emails, had a webinar, ‘Hey, join me on this particular day. I’m going to go in-depth, talk 60 minutes about this and open up to a Question & Answer session.’ When it was over with, I opened it and people started joining. Then after so many days, I closed it down, and now I’m building the second phase of the email list and I think I got maybe, and I just started the email list a few weeks ago, so it’s maybe around 100 people or so right now. I’ll launch another webinar, invite everybody to join, get all the details, and then I’ll open it up for three days, and then I’ll close it down again. I need to get my autoresponder completed. It’s just me being lazy, I guess. I’ve got other shit going on, but it’s not going to stop me from collecting emails or pimping the product. The icing on the cake, to make more people convert, I believe, will be the autoresponder. Maybe I won’t implement it during this phase, but it will definitely be implemented in the next one. John: One thing I wanted to ask, just to play devil’s advocate for a second, is, Facebook is stiff competition. They’re in markets where it’s very, very competitive. I don’t know your market with all this tech stuff where you’re dropping all these industry jargon, and I get most of it, I’m not sure how many people listening do, but how many people … Terry: Sorry about that. John: … in … Are you the only guy in this industry offering this kind of stuff? How much is that contributing to the sales, to the success? Terry: No, there are other people out there. In fact, he’s a friend, but he’s also a competitor because he has a similar product. The name of the group is Hak5, H-A-K 5. They have an internet TV show that talks about hacking and all that kind of stuff, so they have a huge, huge following. Now if you go to their store, the HakShop, which I think is H-A-K S-H-O-P, they sell all kinds of devices like ours, multipurpose devices. Now here’s the kicker: I get a lot of emails saying, ‘Why should I buy your Reaver Pro over the HakShop’s WiFi Pineapple?’ I’m honest with them. I say, ‘The Pineapple is great if you want a device that does multipurpose things. If you want to do man-in-the-middle attacks, you want to break WEP, if you want to break WPA, it even has our open source version of Reaver built into it.’ ‘If you need a multipurpose device that does multiple things and has battery support and all that kind of stuff, then go with that device, but if you want a single-purpose device that goes after Wi-Fi-protected setup, which is on most modern APs today, you need to either test or gain access to those networks and you want an easy-to-use GUI on a very stable platform with awesome customer support, then buy our product.’ People are like, ‘Wow. Thanks for the honesty. Really appreciate that. I just placed my order with you.’ I am customer support, unfortunately, so when people email me with a problem, I’m the one that replies. What I have heard throughout the months is that our competition’s platform is a little more unstable than ours, so it may have a tendency to crash or not function as properly, and their customer support literally sucks. People will email them and may not hear anything back within weeks. John: What you have there, what I’m seeing is that you have just a killer USP. You know exactly who you are, you know exactly what part of the market you’re serving and what sort of person is going to buy your product. Terry: Yes. John: That’s a killer thing is like, when someone’s going to set up their order or something or someone’s going to do their marketing, they need to get their shit worked out like, who are they, who’s their prospect, who are they trying to talk to, and then exactly why is their product different to everything else out there, why should people buy theirs than the other stuff, because they’re thinking if they can iron out those kinks, everything else will flow over naturally and you can have easy answers to all these questions. Terry: Yeah. Now let me caveat what you just said by saying, I agree with everything you just said, but I did not have all that information before I launched Reaver Pro. I didn’t know they had an inferior product, I didn’t know that it was unstable, I didn’t know that their customer support was bad, but that didn’t stop me from just getting out there and putting the autoresponder together. Now, in light of this feedback that I’ve been getting for these past six months is going into my waffling on putting together the current autoresponder, because I want to make sure I address the most common complaints that the competitor has and be able to say why mine is better, so I’ll write it, and then I’ll look at it and let it rest for a day, come back and say, “Nah, I need to rewrite that.” I just need to fucking stick with it and just pull the trigger and do it, like I did the last time. It was kind of interesting because, when I did it the first time, I didn’t know what the hell I was doing, so I just did it. Now the bad part is, I got a little knowledge, I kind of know how it should work, and now I’m waffling, trying to tweak it too much and I’ve got to slap myself and get out of that and just pull the trigger and just do it. John: Yeah, you’re thinking too much. Terry: Yes, exactly. Yes, I am. John: I’ve heard of stories, they get successful early, and then it becomes a lot harder the second time because they ask the question, ‘Can I live up to it? Can I get the same results that I just got?’ Terry: Yeah. Dude, it’s been a ride. I’ve been through four different email providers. I finally for now settled on MailChimp. I just think it’s easy to use and it seems to integrate with everything that we have set up e-commerce-wise and what not. I’m really digging some of these capabilities that some of the bigger things have, and they’re not just emails, like Infusionsoft and Office Auto Pilot, but that’s just too rich for my blood right now. I’m happy with MailChimp. It does what I need to do, it does my autoresponders, I can do my split testing. Again, I don’t do a lot of fancy graphics or links, right? It’s just plain text emails with links. That’s it. John: How long are your emails? Terry: How long are they? John: Yeah. Terry: They’re short. Compared to yours, mine are short, because you can pull up the email and you can probably read it within six, seven lines or so. They’re very short, very quick, to the point. Now the autoresponder series that I’m working on now is going to be a little bit longer, but when I do my broadcast and stuff, it’s usually, ‘Hey, here’s a link to X, Y, Z’ or ‘Here’s a new video I released on Reaver Pro on how to add a Yagi antenna’ or how to set up some certain configuration. I do a lot of broadcasting to the group just to keep it fresh so there’s interesting stuff and I don’t end up in the spam box or the promotions tab. Most recently with the boot camp, I sent out an email that simply said, “Now that you’ve been through the boot camp, can I get your feedback?” I think I’ve had like a 75% open rate on that email and almost damn near everybody responded with some very, very valuable feedback that most of it I plan to implement in the near term, which is great because now I don’t have to fear going to their spam box or to the promotions tab because now they’ve clicked on the link, they’ve responded to me. Dude, it’s been a ride. You are solely responsible for all this email bullshit that I’ve gotten myself into. John: I love it, I love it. Terry: Dude, my partners think I’m a wackjob getting involved with this stuff, but the numbers work. I show them what our profit margin is on me just running this part of the business and just selling this physical product. Now we’re at a position where, ‘What do we want to do with it?’ We’ve proven that it works, we’re making good money, the profit margins are usually around the 20%-plus area. Do we want to sell it off? Because it’s a turnkey system right now. Do we want to sell it off or do we want to expand the product line and what not. I don’t know. It’s a decision we have to come to grips with, how much more time we want to put into it or where we want to drive it. John: Very cool, very cool. Let’s wrap it up around here. Before we go, though, if someone wanted to email you and talk to you more, ask you a few questions about email, do you mind if they get in touch or …? Terry: No, not at all. I love helping people out. I’ve been to a couple of different networking events where I’ve talked about my methodology about how I go about testing ideas before you even put money into it. It’s our little process, our little funnel that deals everything with setting up the AdWords account, setting up the landing page, setting up the autoresponders, questioning the people, and then deciding whether or not that there’s a market out there for it. I’ve kind of put together this little funnel that I go around locally talking about other businesses about, whether it’s a physical product, an online product or maybe a class that they want to teach, how you can test it out without spending a lot of money and going down a rabbit hole that you can’t get out of. Yeah, they can contact me. I’ll give you my personal email address. John: Sure. Terry: It’s terry, T-E-R-R-Y, that’s “T” like in tango, E-R-R-Y dot dunlap, D-U-N-L-A-P, @gmail.com. John: Perfect. I’ll have one of those quickie links to that on the show, and you’ve seen what I do, Terry. You’re a hacker, you should know what I mean, terrydunlap, with a little A-T for “@” so they can’t scrape it. It will be on the show notes at McMethod.com if it’s the list they want to go check out. Now, Terry, thanks for coming on to share your story. Terry: No problem. Anytime, man. Keep up the outstanding work. The post Episode #54 – Terry Dunlap On How A Hacker Makes $88,312 with Autoresponders appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


23 Apr 2014

Rank #11

Podcast cover

Episode #98 – Matthew Pollard on Rapid Growth and Shining Bright Over All Your Competition (never be a “me-too business” again)

What’s one of the best and worst things you can find or achieve as a business owner? Rapid growth. I’ll just give you the answer there. Because we all know that rapid growth means goals are being reached in every way (and that money is being made). So how can it also be the worst thing? Well, if you’re not ready for it, it can sink the ship… …but I take it you are ready for rapid growth, and that’s why I’ve got Matthew Pollard on the show today. Matthew’s a fellow down under native, But where I excel at email marketing, Matt excels at taking your business, …and turning into a money-generating-machine. He takes your business, Packs it into a tiny snowball, Then pushes it and YOU down the hill, Quickly turning you into a rolling MONSTER of a business. Snagging clients or selling your product left and right with ease. How’s Matthew so good at what he does? He’s a natural money-pulling niche finder. He knows the unique angles to look for in business, And he teaches you how to find yours too. So if you’re ready to take advantage of these strategies and finally GROW, fast, Then you’re gonna be stoked after this episode. And you’re gonna want to get out there and show off your new skills (and make more money at the same time). Make sure you catch the special offer for McMethod Podcast listeners only. In this episode, you’ll discover: Matthew’s all-star USP discovery techniques that lets you separate yourself from the pack your brilliant elevator pitch that you’ve always had… but could never figure out why you must put yourself out there and not shy away from becoming THE go-to person or business why the “why’s” are so much more important than the “how’s” in anything you sell a fascinating 3-step conversational elevator pitch perfecting process (and why you need to use this pitch EVERYWHERE) why and how to dominate networking conferences (use these rapid growth tips to network with a purpose) the blueprint structure that frames your perfect elevator pitch and explodes your sales to triple what you have now what the actual term “to sell” translates to (this fact might turn your whole world upside down) the reason why Matthew always calls himself a consultant instead of a salesperson (this reason will force you to be better at your business) 4 questions to ask your customers that will enable you to craft a killer USP from their answers exactly what you need to do as a business owner before you go out and hire a coach (do this first or else you might waste a lot of money) how business owners need scripts just as much as actors do Mentioned: Google Startup Weekend Microsoft Better Business Coach Podcast PayPal MatthewPollard.guru betterbusinesscoachpodcast.com Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Raw transcript: Download PDF transcript here. John McIntyre:  Hey, it’s John McIntyre here, the auto-responder guy, it’s time for episode 98 of the mc-method email marketing podcast where you really just getting actionable tips tricks and strategy on how to convert more leads into customers and just make some more money, so if you like money, keep listening, today we are talking to Mathew pollard. Now Mathew is actual fellow, so I am really enjoyed this episode its always refreshing to get on the phone with someone who sound like I used to sound like, I have been told I sound a bit more American these days, and just have a chat, you know have a chat like two guys in a bar having a couple of beers that’s what today is about and you know Mathew is really cool, Mathew is really cool because we have talked about, he have talked about rapid growth and niche marketing differentiations, this is really, how to stand out, because if you aren’t standing out, if you just fading into the background its going be really hard to make sales. And this applies when you are doing you know face to face staff with client or if you are selling products you have to differentiate so you must do it.. Okay, now to get the show of the email marketing podcast go to the mcmethod.com/98. Now, one thing I want to mention is I think, a lot of economic sometimes they talk about a for example McMasters where the community where there is a monthly fees to get access to training, all that kind of staff, sometimes people council obviously, I have asked a few people why they cancelled and sometimes they are like woo, I hired a copywriter so I don’t need training anymore and a like oh! Did you know that I write      copies? and you what is surprising is that you know a half of the business you know I can say , the good half of the mc-method business is hard of work so a will get on the phone with you and we will have a chat about your business, we will talk about what you need in terms of the emails or sales or split testing or sales page or whatever happens to be that you need and I will make it happen for you, so if you like work with me personally one on one where we get Skype we talk about your projects you pay me and am going to do the work for you, you should email me, because that’s what I do and a do damn good job, so if you want to email me, its john@themcmethod.com and we will chat about that we will get on the phone and talk it out, so that’s that. Now this week mc-method inside of the week is just copywriting now I have mentioned this plenty of times, this is a podcast that I have talked a lot about copywriting before, I just want to wrap on a real quick again because I have a friend this past week who has been trying to email people, trying to get them on the phone, redoing some of the messaging on the website, he knows he should learn copywriting and he knows its holding him back but he is not doing it, he is not putting in all the time all the effort to go and  learn how to write a copy because its hard work you know , I have got to spent a half an hour to an hour every morning leaning how to copy, read the books , you have got to study, he just doesn’t want to do it and for better or worse whether he likes it or not it doesn’t change the fact that its holding him back so the insight of this week is that, learn copywriting even if are the business owner you are not planning on writing too much,  it’s going to change you look at the business it’s going to change the way you look at sales and marketing staff and it’s one of the most valuable things you can learn, seriously it pays off in so many different ways, and this is way a lot very successful entrepreneurs and business people are sales people, that’s really what a copywriter is, a copywriter is a sales person who does it by hands or write it down instead does it face to face, so copywriting you have to learn it. Now what is mc-musters, you might be wondering what the hell is McMaster’s, it’s a private training community that I have, there is a monthly fees but that monthly fees get you access to me inside the forum, and the other members in there and you also get a variety of different training including the flight-ship mc-entice training method on the course on the four to 4 weeks program and by the end of it you will have written the 10 email auto response sequence business that you have written you control you can change update modify and improve it anytime, so there is bunch of other staff which you will love. So, that is that, if you want to learn more about that go to mcmethod.com and follow the links in the menu to the McMasters sales page, that is that foe now let’s into this interview with Mr. Mathew pollard. john McIntyre: its john McIntyre here and am herewith Mathew pollard, now Mathew is a rapid growth consultant he’s got a sweet title am trying to read it without stuttering, he is a niche marketing differentiation and sale systemization coach and he basically helps you work out  how your product and services are different so in other words he is a coach and he has worked out how to differentiate himself by tagging a certain angle in the marketing I that’s why I thought he will be interesting person to chat to he’s got some cool I think some quite unique idea on how to come up with that your basically a USP, how you are going to stand out and differentiate yourself from all the other copywriters or all the other business coach  or all the other business that sale the same thing that you sale and this is a really  key thing, whether you are going to an event trying to network with people whether you are in a building business trying to sale kitchen knives  doesn’t matter what you are doing, you have to stand out Unless you want to compete in price and that really the fastest you know race to the bottom, so that’s what we are going to talk today some of how to do this elevated pair chat come up with the unique angle and differentiate yourself and sort of the way that has led Mathew right now to go and do what he does with business which is helping work this out do some of this growth staff and do it rapidly, so are going to have some fun today and  he is Australian so you are going to hear some another razz accent we getting a few of this lately and it’s always nice, I speak to a lot of Americans and its quite refreshing to get in the phone with an Australian funny enough he lives in Texas which I will be there in a few weeks, anyway, Mathew, how are you doing man? Mathew pollard: Am doing well mate, yourself?  John McIntyre:  fantastic, good to have you on the show man! Mathew pollard: yeah, am excited to be hear men, thank you very much for the                                                                                   awesome introduction, am glad you got it out without the stuttered  John McIntyre: I just read it slowly and carefully just to make sure it worked. Mathew Pollard: you did well, you gave it justice and you even managed to catch me out in the differentiation in my title. John McIntyre:  I think what I do too I don’t know if you do this in your podcasts bit one thing friends have caught me out on is like I put on they might be out here now, I put on this podcast voice like slightly different to the normal voice because it’s sort of like when  you are doing a show and you are interviews you are doing anything recorded you need to be a bit better with your dictionary, I bit better with your you know  the way you phrase things and speed and all those kind of things. Mathew Pollard:  you are an Australian; you have got to learn these things slowly. John McIntyre:  The other day too men, its if we are talking like this and how you got and that Australian accent no one understands anything we are talking about so works way better when you kind of dissing  Take your Australian accent out of it a little bit. Mathew pollard: well, you can’t otherwise you have to call yourself the brogan podcast and again if you are an Australian isn’t to explain that so,,, John McIntyre: a brogan, anyway we should explain that sometime but before we do that lets give a list of a bit of your background on who you are what you doing and why you are special. Mathew pollard: Yeah sure, so I guess my core I guess when you talked on the US pays, what I am really good at is taking any idea and creating rapid growth on the method so done that and I have been responsible for the 5 multimillion dollars start up myself anything from telecommunication back when telecommunication was Citra I created the fastest growing independent communication breakage for independent mobile in the country and Australia and then just recently I worked in a marketing platform that I actually got to train a half shares of student into an atria which is American version of college, yeah, anything from national credited education to telecommunication I want to turn something into rapid growth vehicle and something like education especially you would have thought that their people working in education are intelligent people working in education because they have a lot of teaches a lot of marketing strategies and it takes year and years and years to get the first few hundred client in education yet we are we train a half theirs in three years and its purely because i look at thing from a different angle and I can teach other people to look at thing in different angle and allow them to differentiate in such a way and target a niche market that no one has thought of and that’s why we get such growth. John McIntyre: nice, I like it. That was a great pitch. Mathew pollard: well, you sold me as differentiator and a sale strategy I felt that if I didn’t sound good at the job people are probably going to think that I don’t quite know what I am talking about. John McIntyre:   that’s true that’s true one thing I have noticed talking to  the Australians and the Americans and different people from different cultures is Australians typically a lot of Australians have trouble selling themselves more a bit more of like we do it in the background that puppy syndrome you don’t want to be better than anyone, while a have noticed that Americans particularly when you spend time with I spent time with them and they are much more forthcoming about what they are good at generally, I could be wrong but the ones I have met ate like that. And that was…. Mathew pollard: I would agree with that, I mean I think that especially in Australia you always down place yourself because everybody one to be the oozy battler if you like to use the equoloqualism but everybody doesn’t want to seem better than their friend everybody just want to fit in. but what actually happens is that they are not promoting themselves and a lot of times for instance when I put myself forward on what I do a lot of times people say, oh! Good am glad you mentioned that because I am really straggling I have a business, it has been running for ten years and you know matter what I do I don’t seem to grow and am always straggling suddenly I have lost customers that am just surviving and am actually glad you you’ve just put yourself forward because now I can utilize your service and some advice where by not presenting yourself in right way you actually doing people injustice because you know you good at what you do, why wouldn’t you tell people so that they can use you? John McIntyre: mmm! Mm! That’s such a critical mind set issue that it takes a long time to get this idea that if you are in business or if you are selling anything assuming your product is good and your service is good then you really awe to not just to yourself to go and make money but to the market place to go and help because if it’s a great product they are missing out if you don’t sell it right. Mathew pollard: look I agree with you and it’s funny because over the last few weeks I was a pitch coaching judge at Google style up weekend just this weekend and the weekend before that I was a pitch coaching judge  at the Microsoft event and the amazing thing is some of these people that are involved in this events have unbelievable ideas, like, I wish I could be shareholder in some of this ideas this people are coming up with, but when they tell me about them, am not interested at all and then they tell me about  who it helps and how it helps them am like wow! This idea is amazing, how do we get involved in this, how do we get moving with this and all it is  they are talking to me like a coach would am a business coach they tell me about the feature of the services that they offer they are not telling me any story of how it works and over the Google style up weekend is a great example I spend you work with over three days weekend and by the end of it they had this clean cut pitch and I was one of the judges for that as well I got to see the transition for when they first tell me the ideas where you know they were excited about it but a half the team didn’t even understand what they were doing to the last day where the audience of one 150 people in the back end were like oh my God this ideas are unbelievable and it’s really just about learning how to present it in a away where are demonstrating need or tell the story about a specific customer rebellion you know, who it helps and then take them through a story of how you came up with this idea to help this person and the you know I like to say this in chapter, chapter three, talk about how you created a certain product, and show them the product and step four or chapter four, talk about the financial and how big the market is to get the investors excited, and by follow up I simply you know I gave them a full state process which is very basic descripting I pitch yet for them it made such a phenomenon difference that you know the one that follow those stepping stone or process correctly it actually meant that I mean one of the groups that I worked with won the event you know but I worked with 12 intern so that’s not really saying much but you know such a major difference and it’s all about knowing how to present what you are doing in a way that isn’t selling isn’t pushing, it’s just educating by telling stories. John McIntyre: I like, so let’s talk about that them, how to do this I mean because you got that elevator pitch you know when I am a conference when I bump into someone that might be a potential client, I have to find a way to get that across that basically am a copywriter I have marketing agency for example, but I have to find a way am in a plenty marketing agency and the copywriters and consultants and these kind of things out there I have to find a way to differentiate myself and that applies in that situation but it also applies in every level of marketing process  whether it’s you know a one on one thing or on a website or you know or even on a billboard. So, am assuming I mean, correct me if am wrong, sound like this idea is a way of coming up with call of the elevator pitch, you know you can apply it anywhere. Mathew pollard: you really can, and it should be really applied everywhere because realistically, you create a business to provide a cool benefit and an elevated pitch is really talking about the benefits you provide, you also provide that benefit to group of people and in the elevated pitch, you talk about the group of people that you helped and generally the customers that you had in the past, probably had a few objection that they needed to answer before they take you on as a consultant. So why not put that upfront? So now it’s funny like in the better business coach podcast which we will talk about in the second, you know I break down a full level elevated pitch and in the next session a conversation level elevated pitch but its really quite simple, a basic elevated pitch and I always start with the client teaching them these because they I need to understand the foundation a little, how basic it is and how simple it is to implement and just how mind blowing the change that you get from the response from the client can be from something that is purely scripted and obviously scripted so when we are to the next stage a little bit harder and put more work and you can see that it’s going to add so much value in business that makes it worth the effort, so the primary function of an elevated pitch is you say I do x for this group of people and what segment do I work with so am basically saying that I work with straggling business and I then talk about the benefits of  all the problems that I solve so you know I help straggling business create rapid growth or avoid having huge numbers of customers complains depending on what you are pitching even if and this is where the common objective is, even if they suck at sales, or even if they couldn’t manage to process the to save their lives you come up with something that works and what is funny is its very simple I work with this group of people to fix this benefit or problem so that it would achieve this benefit or fix this problem even if most common objection, it’s a 3 step very simple process but as result of doing that a customer basically will almost feel forced to how do you do that t because I didn’t tell them how, I didn’t tell them why I did that I just said that I do this specific thing and it forces them to say how do you do that you know is I say, I work with straggling business to obtain rapid growth within their organization even if they suck at sales if somebody have a struggling business they will say, how do you do that? As opposed to if I say that am a business coach they will say to me, that’s nice, I had a business coach before yet it didn’t really work out or hallo it’s nice that you are doing business coach and I do this and a good example of this the best example I can give is somebody saying I sales insurance, how does that make you feel? I have already got my insurance sorted out please don’t talk to me that’s what happen, it’s the same when you say you are a coach this days because there are so many coaches out there and everybody knows that 95% of them their biggest problem is that they can’t get clients, so as soon as you hear I am a coach, you know that’s a new code word for a sales person so you run for the heels, so when you say I help business obtain rapid growth even if they suck at sales they are like, that’s different, I haven’t heard that before how do you do that? and it just converts it completely into on their invitation now I get to explain what I do where going back to the insurance sales person and I have to say but if you try this or have you thought about this what about if you look at it this way now am pushing my product and services on someone which I know realize that American hate pushing themselves on people and by doing it wrong you are forcing yourself to do that. And I get people all the time saying I don’t like networking events you know, you never get anything good out of them and its funny I go to networking events all the time and I really enjoy the experience I get lots of customer out of it because I ask people what they do, to be interested on what they do, they tell me that they are business coach and they tell me that they sale insurance and I say oh! That’s cool like they expect to hear and they and then they reciprocate by say what do you do and I respond with three part elevated pitch well actually now I respond with this conversational elevated pitch that I talk about in my podcast but effectively if they then respond with how do you do that? and then I get to sales to them on their invitation, so it’s not that the networking doesn’t work and its purely is, that people are doing it wrong, and if learn how to do it right it makes such a change and you and I were talking offline about the elevated pitch and its effectiveness of it and a lot of people know that the elevated pitch exist. Yet it still works so well because even though I know I am being elevated pitched, I still can’t say something like how do you do that? Because it’s kind of difficult when somebody says those three lines to you, you decide, that’s cool, you feel like you have to follow on and when you go into a conversation where you laid the pitch later, where you say do you know how many people sort of go out to start business because they are looking to leave a legacy or they are looking to create something for themselves and have that freedom so work on a beach in berlin if they want or Thailand in your sake. And then they wind up straggling financially or straggling to get client and starting to loose confident on themselves and as a result they really start wondering whether or not they should go back to work you know anybody like that? Then they are going to l say I know somebody like that, am like that and then you get a conversation again on their invitation because they thought that they have the problem and then you can move on the conversation of the pitch so that was just the test of you know what else you can do to make it better but focus on that three parts first because if you are not doing that trust me that is going to straight x your sale straight away. John McIntyre:   interesting, there is a couple of thing to point out here, but I think one of the first one is a to do that feature verses benefits idea is that to say am a business coach or a copywriter that’s really just a feature, and my feature is well I coach people or I write copy or I sale staff. No one really cares about the feature, in a perfect world where there is no competitive no market and advertising at all and there is only one person who did each specific thing in the world, people would be like 5  am looking for the coach, he is the coach, am looking for the copywriter, he is the copywriter whereas in a competitive market place, there has to be that differentiation and that’s why feature doesn’t matter anymore because there is thousands of people who have the same feature, there is thousands of coaches, so what’s the different between them, no one is really looking for a coach, they are looking for something specific and that’s where that benefit comes in which is when you say that it’s kind of interesting that’s why I love sales and marketing because when it’s done well people know what’s happening they know it’s an elevated pitch and it’s not as though you are so good at manipulating him, it’s of case of sale went down right, it’s perfectly natural because you are just tapping into like, if you have a problem, if someone really want to quite there job and build a business and move to Thailand then if someone says that I know how to do that and he a trust worthy he have some case study there is know why they shouldn’t do it if that’s what they want to do, and there is nothing wrong with being sold at because that what they want at the first place so there is issue of sales not a bad thing at all and doing that elevated pitch, if that’s what someone wants, they are going to feel great, they are not going to be resistant to it at all because that’s what they want. Mathew pollard:  that’s exactly right and I mean people forgotten and people think sale is a dirty word I mean, in PDTOs book 1, 0-1 one of the creators of PayPal, he talks about the fact that even though this organizations know that sales is the life blood of their organization, they almost hide the fact that they have to sale in any of their presentation like it’s  their sleazy thing they do behind the cooperative branding and that is ridiculous, the term to sale means to serve and what you really doing is presenting people with something that they may need to improve their lives, the problem is you are not serving somebody by providing business coaching , you are serving somebody by helping them as you said learn the discipline and or the skill set that they need so that they can go and work from a Beijing toilet, to truly serve someone and I always not call myself a sales person, I call myself a consultant and the reason for that is that if I don’t truly understand what you need and what benefits you are looking for, and I start presenting the product and services that I offer then I am not being a consultant a being a sales person so I always start by asking a lot of questions. Because to truly serve somebody, I need to know a lot of information so the elevated pitch is one thing because what I am really saying is you are kind of in a straggling business and kind of wants to excel by getting lots of customers and you really don’t think you can sale then come talk to me because I will help, now you are interested on how do that, let me ask you a lot  of questions first to make sure I can serve you, that’s what a consultant does while a sales person, would say am a coach and say well am not interested in coach but have you thought about this, let me read you the brochure of features that I can provide  you know I can increase your productivity, your profitability, okay cool, every coach says that what unique message do you have that you can deliver that will actually help people and provide a benefit? John McIntyre:    I like it, so one direction that that, one thing I want to know and I think the listeners are probably a bit curious about is going to be the example so you talked about a lot of example for if you are a business coach and how you can how you can have that elevated pitch that puts you in differentiate that niche differentiation, so what about some other examples that are from like unrelated niches of business? Mathew pollard:  yes, sure, let’s look at the insurance just because we had that one on the table before, for instance for, people in Australia they would understand that the massive flow that happened in Brisbane and a few month later we found out that a lot of those post cards own their insurance policies and they found out that they well they should for flood damage that came in from the ocean and they proved that it came from the ocean and this people found out that they weren’t ensured so they couldn’t get their houses done. So if I was an insurance sales person, I might be saying something like, I help people with that are trying to save money on insurance, find the right policies that are going to give them the security that they made the right choice even if I don’t have a lot of money. Right so what I am really trying to do there is am trying to highlight, every part of about what I do so it’s all about saving money but they still want that security, that safety in it and everybody knows if you get one you lose the other one and so they’re  going to be forced to say how do you do that and because they are to be assuming that’s not possible, when I bring it up as a conversation I will be like there are so many people who really want to save on their insurance but they have seen what happened in Brisbane and all the floods and they are just not willing to take that risk and loose there family home and but they don’t have that money do you know anyone like that? You know what I mean, you get people in that conversation and yes I know everyone is trying to save money on insurance but there is no way am going to take that risk, now we can have that conversation. Another good example, am just trying to think in the industries that, I will give an example building is a good one, in Australia and in a lot of country now the builders are in short supply, okay they are building lots of houses, and if I want to talk about selling buildings, I would say, do you know how most people want to build their families home or do you how most people want to do sub division they always find and identify problem, they always find that most builders never get back to them or never get a quote, now what they are really looking for is somebody who can really help them achieve you know getting it done on time. Do you know anyone like that? If we are doing it as an elevated pitch we would say I help people that can’t get there houses build even if they had three or four builders already and they haven’t called them back John McIntyre: mmmh! Mathew pollard:  right? So you know very strict guidelines in the elevated pitch is 3 steps, I help all people, help them find somebody who can do there sales for them even if they had no success before, right? So you really putting it in finite guidelines and we can go through lots and lots of example but the core ideology is, when I said all people obviously I just picked this on the cuffs helping all people is not a specific message, it’s like saying I sale us, it doesn’t give you that anything unique, like if I want to sale ice and I want to put it in elevated pitch, I could say, I help snow cone server shop get the best ice possible for their consumers even if they seem to always have machines that doesn’t work. Because everybody now well I have already consulted with the snow cone sales company, the common objection I had is my machine, it’s my machine problem and machines are too expensive to replace and funny enough you can actually create ice that is easier to shred John McIntyre:  mmmm! Mathew pollard:  so you know there is a lot of different ways to do it but it really about following the 3 steps strategy which is I help segment and the smaller you make that segment the less people it speaks to but again if you speak to everybody you speak to nobody, so speak to that unique segment and obviously if you go to different networking event you can have a few networking skills and you want to make sure that your networking skill is the applicable to the event that you are going to but pick a few segment don’t pick more than a few, the, what is the unique benefit that you provide them or what is the unique problem that you solve and what’s the most common objection that I have, okay, and it’s not one of the thing that you just think of and cough like you can say for business couches, the most common benefit that guess we can talk about is that you help create systems within the business and the core benefit of that is the is you increase productivity, okay, now increasing productivity how differentiated is that compared to most business coaches talk about? It’s not that differentiated so you want to get that one step further for instance if I sit on the sales coach and I help people create a sale system or feel comfortable with the sale system, people aren’t going to see that as exciting, so I talk about the fact that I create rapid growth and for all my client I mean i have got a ghostwriter this is how you get to tell the story when people ask you how do you do that, I have a ghost writer that I work with who made $25000 last year out of one ghostwriting gig within 6 weeks of working with me and $80000 out of three jobs  so as long as you can deliver that core message you know that create rapid growth is what they want, you are doing them a service you need to break into those elements, you just want to speak to them properly. John McIntyre:  Am Loving this, am actually making note right here, after this am going to head to star box, I was already planning to do but this is important I want to sit down and until I map out this elevated pitch, I like it. Mathew pollard:  it’s funny, I learned this at a seminar, I can’t even remember who I was listening to, but I would have been 16yrs and my parent took me and made me sit on the seminar, I went one of those 3day weekend am sure everyone received those free tickets to the seminar, where they speak for an hour them they try to sale you something, and I got rogued in sitting in one of those and funny enough I actually enjoyed it, but I learned the networking skill at that event and I had no use for it because I was a little introverted kid I had a reading skill of a sixth grader when I was in high school and I never thought I would ever have a need for it but I had written it down and years later worked out and started my own business I was like I need to talk about this and I remembered that it was written down somewhere and some reason I kept it and all over sudden I now tooled it for so many people and but you know, I don’t spend so many paper when I need to create an elevated pitch, I sit down with a pen and paper and I write it down, would be surprised if I say I spend probably less than 5min figuring it out. And I use this elevated pitch at every networking event for the next 10yrs without working on it another time, how many hours do you think they spend delivering this pitch or this elevated pitch? Hours and hours, so one rule that I had is spend more than 5min doing it, sit down work out how true benefit you deliver and if your customers, the best people that matters are your customers, feel free pick up the phone and say john listen, I really appreciate the fact that you have been my customer for the last 10yrs and I really appreciate that we have a great friendship and we have been working together that long, however, there are so many other sales niche marketing differentiation organization out there, why exactly do you work with me? And they will respond with something like you are always so energetic and inspiring or because you really help me write a great copy, I wouldn’t know the first thing about what you would say and neither will most when they sit down writing this elevated page, however what I can tell you is when you think about who you help, genuinely, your best or the people that you help when you look at the customer sale, it would be those people because they are still your customers so you will probably find they come from a few different industries but not that many wide ranging or they will have similarities, so that’s who you help that’s step 1. Step 2, what benefit do you provide, pick up the phone and ask them, so many people are scared to ask thinking there customer are going to decide not to, every time they pay your bill they decide whether or not they are going to pay you, so pick up the phone and ask them, appreciate them, they will appreciate they will probably up the spend on you next month, so ask them why, that’s your benefit and then ask the next question which I love the most which is, when you first sat down with me, what were you thinking, what was the one reason in your head for why you didn’t want to work with me? There is your even if, what you will find is most people don’t want to ask their customer that it’s also the reason most people give them for why they don’t buy the services in the first place. So it’s a pretty simple strategy I mean this is not rocket science I would love to say it with 27 steps but then people will have to pay me for hours and hours and hours, realistically we can do this in an hour session of customization and you guys have now got the formula you could do this with yourself as long as you spend the hour I will spend with you, if you only spend 5min because am not there with you telling you to spend the hour, then it’s not going to be as good as I can make it for you. John McIntyre:  one thing I have notice being in business for a few years now is that with this marketing staff it’s one thing you are going to sit down for 5min or an hour and do an exercise like this or even go and talk to people but what happens is you come up with something and what you do it by just sitting in the star box or going and having a conversation with people, but what’s going to happen over time is that it’s going to shift and it’s going to evolve and as it bring in more data and feedback just by working with people you are going to get a clear over time if  staying on the same business and the same market, you over time you are going to get the picture of who you are and what you are doing and who you help is going to become clearer and clear so what happens is that message is going to get more and more refine. Mathew pollard: look, definitely I agree with you, however I would say one proviso, if you stop for a second and reflect on what you do because so many people are busy and working day to day and they never look outside that, they are so busy working inside their business not on it, and what I commonly say with a lot of business coaches is they worry when they are first starting about whether or not they will be able to help their client, I can generally say depending on what they charge that they can more than pay for themselves by actually just physically being there and making the business work on their business other than in it that there and there for that hour there. They don’t have to do any more than that than be the person’s baby sitter and make sure they work on their business and this is the advice I give to all business owners.  Before you get a coach, or even though you have coach spend some time yourself physically working on your business, write the elevator skill, think about whom you work with, I mean you talk about US paid, sale proposition, when you are doing that most people don’t know what that is like when I talk to peoples goals in an organization and what their vision and they are like that’s something fuzzy I didn’t really work on, no, that’s is something you want from your customers, something you want to get from your employees and it’s something you want to get behind, and we get right through smart goals and setting those visions because it’s going to be something that will make you wake up every morning and want to go to work yet most people don’t have one. When I ask people about sales strategies and the sale system and they say am just going to talk whatever comes out of my mouth is what I say because I am trying to be unique with customers, what you are basically saying is that you have no strategy you have no process for doing it but you are happy to go in hours and hours going out and seeing clients and writing proposal and all the rejection that come with that being told No just because you don’t want to spend a few hours writing a script and then learning it, and then embracing it like an actor would do when they portray a  script so that you can deliver sport on every time. John McIntyre:  I like it, so, right on time hear tell me about the podcasts and what you are up to and the next step is if someone wants to learn more about you or wants to work with you. Mathew pollard: well funny I look primarily on the sale niche marketing and differentiation coach that’s what I do however I get so many organization ask me to come in and work with them and this is for over a decade now, they want me to come and create a rapid growth and the first thing I do I come and I have a look at their business they are got customer complaints, they maybe sighing up a thousand clients but 20% of them have got paper work errors, they send wrong product to 5% of them, the business is all over the place there is no solid foundation so what I have to do is I have to say hold on a second let me coach you on how to build your business on solid foundation first, ones we will create a rapid growth it doesn’t  take very long but we have to do it first, the next step is ones we create that rapid growth I still have to coach them as a business coach to how fix all the things and issues  that come along the way when you get that rapid injection of sales in your business, so because I was an introverted kid, I had $93 before I made my first sale I was not an extrovert I definitely didn’t have the gifts of the God and I learned by systemizing every single part of what I did, into a protest and I tool that into business coaching as well, over decade, every time a customer called me and said I want to talk about this tomorrow, I would change what I was doing the next morning before I went out and see them, I would create a work sheet or a template to run though with then because I felt that you should never have to do thing more than ones and if you have a business coach who sits down with you and says what will you like me to go with you today, you should get In control, how would I know what am supposed to do to fix my business isn’t that what I pay you for? So I would have a template. so, over the last 10yrs I spend, I have created a bout 155 templates that I perfected over that time, and during this podcast which I call betterbusinesscoachpodcast.com you will found in how to be a better business coach, what I have created    is basically all the ideology and all the training you need to create the most client session you could possibly have, basically because I understand what it’s like to have to learn all those thing you need to learn and create all of the things you need to create while trying to go out and find customers so am doing all the work so you don’t have to, but on top of that am also giving away all of the worksheets that I use actionable worksheet that you can physically take out and use it with your client and they are all downloadable from my site mathewpollard.guru or betterbusinesscoachpodcast.com and I have also talked about special offer that am doing for your listeners which is if you type in mathewpollard.guru/john you will get access to the 5 worksheets that I started with, it’s the ones that you use when you are trying to transition a prospects into a client it basically take from I don’t know a one business coaching to oh my God please help me you can see I have a lot of problems and the first 4 worksheet that you will use with your client to open up all those problems and start helping them, for business owners, these are great work sheets as well, because they also allow you to start you know, there is a lot of business before you should get a business coach because even I have one because just talking about your business and utilizing the for different perspective is awesome but for those people who can’t afford business coach just yet, it’s a great opportunity to actually step back and work on your business and coach yourself until you get to that point John McIntyre: I like it, so, mathewpollard.guru/john all the link to that is shown at the mcmethod.com under the episodes, Mathew thanks for coming man. Mathew pollard: you are more than welcome man, I had a ball. The post Episode #98 – Matthew Pollard on Rapid Growth and Shining Bright Over All Your Competition (never be a “me-too business” again) appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


24 Feb 2015

Rank #12

Podcast cover

Episode #204 – Steve Sipress On Stepping Out On A Limb. How to Attract Business To You With Authenticity

His father left a sales job to start a business of his own. His mother was a school teacher… who made him promise if he ever learned anything… he had to teach it to someone else. In his last year of law school, he turned a hobby into a multi-million dollar business. Largest in its industry. With the taste of entrepreneurship… he has never looked back. He started into consulting to help others who asked. 40 years later a lot has changed by the principles are the same. Coming from the Dan Kennedy school of “straight-talk”… he lets loose on what it takes to win at business. I know after listening to Steve, you will no longer make excuses for why you’re not killing it… with YOUR marketing. Listen now. Then take MASSIVE action. The Steve Sipress way. In this episode, you’ll discover: Steve’s simple advice for 99.9999% of business owners regarding todays technology to build your business The “30 days of suck” strategy for sharpening your video skills Steve’s “Warts and All Strategy” of putting yourself out there. Drive new business to you like Steve with this authenticity “hack”. Simple “tells” a business is on the verge of disaster. Is your business in danger? Secrets of the celebrity marketing elite. Discover the techniques of Donald Trump and the Kardashians now Mentioned: Carlos’ Steve Sipress online Steve Sipress on Facebook Lessons Learned from Donald Trump podcast David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey everybody, we’re back with another edition of the podcast and we have a great guest here again today I’ve been looking forward to interviewing this person for some time yeah he’s done multiple podcasts over time and it’s fascinating to listen to some of them even had a Trump cast for a while which was hilarious and Steve Sipress, welcome to the show. Steve Sipress: Thanks for having me, pleasure to be here and by the way we still do have the lessons learned from Donald Trump podcast – we’re on episode 131 and still going strong. David Allan: Wow I wasn’t aware of that so I can’t even anticipate a time when there will not be lessons to be learned. I wouldn’t think so one of the fascinating things I learned about you is like you’ve had multiple podcasts of course in the past pertaining to sort of marketing you had – an interesting origin story – this interesting book that I’ve never eard of actually before and so maybe take us back into like where you were where you came from it was your origin a superhero or origin story. Steve Sipress: Well it’s pretty simple and maybe pretty familiar to people my mom was a schoolteacher and my dad was a salesperson and later on and life became left the sales – left the company became a business owner and so I’m basically the combination of the two. My mom had a saying when we grew up that we had an obligation that if we learned something we got a teacher to somebody else so I’ve always been a teacher and a leader in that way and since my dad was extremely successful in sales and business he always taught me a lot of business lessons and sales lessons and how to deal with people and took me along on sales calls and and to meet all of his associates and stuff so I was deeply embroiled in the world of business from young age and helping my dad out do whatever I could do and also always had an eye towards whatever I learned I got a teach and lead others and so I guess I went the usual route of going to school and thinking you know go to college and get a job and do all that nonsense and I was lucky enough or fortunate enough to turn my hobby into a business during my last year of law school and that business very quickly became a multi-million dollar business and became the numberone largest in its industry. and I was off and running into the world of business ownership and pretty much never looked back and after a that very quick and meteoric success I had lots of people asking me what to do had to do that can you help me and I was de facto kind of consulting with people until somebody said you know you ought to start charging for that because people will pay for that consulting so I became a paid consultant to help other small business people have massive success and I’ve been doing that for coming on about four decades now and enjoying it now more than ever yeah I think you have like a really fascinating I was reading some of the testimonials on your website and I’ve listened to many many of your sort of daily video Facebook live things you have some sort of things for various days of the week that you talked about what was that first sort of like you were just doing it for free it seems like at first like just helping other people out like you said following what your parents had told you to sort of share what you’ve learned and then what was it like you know did you get out of that other business and into consulting sort of right away or how did that work well that first multi-million dollar business I got out of it because they screwed it up and so that you know wasn’t I didn’t make a choice I missed the chance had an offer from an investor to invest and then possibly take it public but back in those days I didn’t know what the hell I was doing I didn’t know anything about business and so I said no to that offer thinking you know hey they wanted to give me 1.75 million for 45% of the company and I was like well you know that makes it worth a little more than three and a half million in just about three years so in ten years it’ll be worth 10 million and why would I want to give away 45% of that so that was my dumb thinking and I had a sort of assorted other dumb mistakes that now the beneficiary that is my clients or anyone that like you said listens to my various podcast or sees me on TV or radio or reads my books or watches my daily Facebook live videos they just passed my one and a half year anniversary of doing a Facebook live video every single day and everyone else can benefit from I can see the warning signs of a business about to go on the wrong track fail get overwhelmed go under and I can spot those and they can help people to avoid them before they happen like they did with me okay so let’s let’s delve into a few of those because now before we even get to that I mean you’ve had a long history of doing sort of a you know you were podcasting daily for a long time now you’re doing the daily Facebook videos maybe talk a little bit about that where people out there who have a business or business people and maybe they’re not you know they’re sort of scared to get on video or they think it’s very problematic to put together something like a podcast maybe talk to some of that and sort of your history with that stuff oh yeah that happens a lot now it’s extremely common and people do ask me that all the time the good news is asking that question about 10 20 years ago very simple answer you want to you know disseminate videos or audios very simple you have to convince a TV or a radio station to have you on or pay lots of money to someone that has all the equipment to come out and interview you and edit out the video and and then you can you know put the video wherever you want put it onto cassettes or whatever you had to do back then and mail them out and all that kind of stuff nowadays thanks to technology you know like I I I’m fond of saying we own the technology now we don’t need to convince a TV station I got something to say please have me on the air so I can get a recording of the video and then send it out the prospects I got YouTube it’s free I got Facebook it’s free now LinkedIn you can do live videos you can do you know tape videos and upload them to to all the different social media sites and web video hosting site and everyone’s got a pretty high-quality video camera walking around in their pocket all day long so pretty much since we already own a cell phone it is free to record a video and you can get free editing software usually comes with most computers you can find it somewhere on the computer on the internet and then you can upload it for free and it’s hosted for free and then you can promote it for free by sending it out on social media and stuff so oh my goodness if that doesn’t overcome all the excuses I don’t know what does I mean cuz the alternate is hey just come up with about few people I know that own film producing companies and they’ll come out with all the big equipment and they’ll help you what to say and they’ll you know get the right lighting and the right angle and the right everything to make it look all slick and professional and and but who the heck why invest I mean I know there’s reasons why to invest in that stuff to really do first-class filmmaking but for I’d have to say 99.99999% of business owners just take out your phone and put it onto video pointed out yourself start talking and if you can’t I always say if you can’t talk about your own business for about four hours you’re in the wrong business like just stop and do something else because you’ve got to be able to answer questions all the time maybe just to get started how about this you write down the ten most frequently asked questions that people ask you and for thirty seconds or one minute each you’re gonna give the answer well there’s your first ten videos now you take those and you put them on YouTube you put them on your website put them on Twitter Facebook Linkedin wherever you want to put them you got ten videos ask to the people that say oh gee I’m not comfortable doing video well no kidding like yeah whoo-hoo you know I I’ve been doing like you said I’ve been doing a daily podcast for about five six years a daily or the daily podcast about three years the daily blog is about five or six years old I’ve got a publish a monthly magazine that’s about six years old I’ve been doing a Facebook live video almost 600 of those every single day and that’s one way to do it if you go back and you could find it on any of those sites I just talked about my blog my podcast LinkedIn Twitter Facebook whatever but maybe YouTube’s the easiest you just scroll back and go to the first ones of my daily Facebook live videos they absolutely suck sure they’re the most embarrassing ridiculous terrible things but here’s the news it takes and you know this David it takes 10 20 30 how many it takes to start becoming good I don’t know any one that became good on the first one so people that are sitting there with you know letting themselves fall prey to their own nonsense excusive I don’t feel country of course you don’t but you’ve got to get through the first feeling comfortable and start getting good so how soon you want to do that if you want to be good 30 days from the hell start doing it now and just suck for 30 days here’s the really good news if you can do a facebook live video on video record the whole thing and then go on and delete it so you can do first 30 days of sucking and no one will ever even see him other than the people who were on live you can even just record him with your own video camera for 30 days or record 30 in one day or whatever you want to do till you get good and then start publishing him to other people but here’s the thing I get a lot of connection from people that say man I was nervous just like you I saw some you’re nervous things or I heard about how you messed up that multi-million dollar business I did too or heard about you made these mistakes I did too or you know I did had a paper route when I was a kid or I messed up my first gum you know be people connect through shared experiences so I’m not afraid to share all my experience is good bad ugly and different share them all because that’s how people feel comfortable connecting so yeah and here’s an example let’s say you’re watching a you know one of these late-night TV shows where the actors come on and it’s a it’s a it’s an actor who makes 5 10 million dollars a movie is a big movie star he’s promoting the biggest new movie and the host will sometimes mess them up by going you know what we went in the archives we found this really obscure commercial you did when you were 16 and invariably if you seen that what what does the guests do they’re like oh no don’t show that that sucks that’s embarrassing I was terrible or they find their first ever appearance on TV or or their if they’re a comedian here’s your first thing on HBO’s young comedian sir here’s the first film role you were in and they’re like oh my goodness I look terrible I sound terrible I was terrible that’s embarrassing but here’s the news they did what the listener asked that question doesn’t feel like doing is they did it and then you get over it so action cures fear just take the action and get overnight and I don’t go with the saying of like act as if you’re not afraid no you’re afraid you have fear do it anyway feel the fear but do it anyway don’t feel like oh I’m gonna act like I’m confident like you don’t act anyway just do it and you’ll be like that that movie star you’ll be like the band I mean whatever your favorite musical band is go back and listen to the first album it’s act or go if you can get some kind of bootleg recording or when they were just playing at their high school prom and they were doing all cover songs cuz they couldn’t write a song they couldn’t play a song they couldn’t sing a song they were terrible like no kidding but they got out there and they did it and now they’re millionaires and having fun and doing it so that’s how I did it I don’t have any advice on how to do it perfectly the first time I guess my advice is just get out there stumble bumble fumble and do it and eventually you’ll need a quick or you’ll get good there you go yeah I think that’s a very important point you made there to where you said earlier about connecting with people how you share all your foils and your successes and everything that’s something I think we both have shared perhaps because we were both sort of fans as is probably everybody in marketing of Dan Kennedy and that’s the first place I heard him somebody talk about that was his magnetic marketing speech where he talked about there was all these instances he had interwoven into that speech so that people had a place to connect and relate to him as a human being and therefore he no longer seems special and that they too can do it well you mentioned Dan Kennedy and and you know I know if you were people know but then it’s my number one mentor and direct response marketing once I figured out it had a name directs months mark and I had been using it for decades before I guess that was even a heads up a lot kind of a leg up I we didn’t the first thing ever read from him I was like yep that works yep that works yep he’s right yeah that works but I also at the same time was going oh crap I never did that oh crap that’s a good idea oh crap look how much money I left on the table because I knew that if since most of what he was talking about it I already experienced and and used it to build my companies and knew it worked I was like holy crap look how much money I left on the table by my not doing the rest of this stuff where was this guy of course it’s not about where was he it’s where was I the same as you have a listener today going wow where was this Steve Cyprus Kevin well I’ve been around I’ve been around for decades but you finally opened up to saying I’m looking for help and I’m looking for the right guy and maybe that’s me so maybe you found me so I found Dan Kennedy and I actually became one of Dan Kennedy’s independents Dan Kennedy certified whatever he call the business of Brian the largest I built the largest Dan Kennedy independent advisor chapter whatever they called it back in those days and that was my claim to fame for a while I any time I went and spoke at events or even attended or wherever I went it was like oh you’re that Dan Kennedy guy so you know other than you know 99% of his personality I was a Dan Kennedy guy even though I haven’t been the you know stuttering alcoholic gone bankrupt a couple of times and all that kind of stuff I got my own foibles and screw-ups and messes to share and you’re right then is forthright about that and happens all the people all the time after I speak or even on a video or a podcast or whatever and then I get the private messages or people coming up to me going yeah you know I had that too or me too so just another thing to get you started like we’re all human I don’t know a single human his life has gone up business has gone up on a straight line from left to right all the way up from broke to riches like we all know it’s a rollercoaster we go up and down life throws us curveballs there’s all kinds of twists and turns and social media especially is somewhere where there’s a lot of fakeness going on there’s a lot of people hiding behind they only post great things that happen and Here I am an exciting place and I’ve even read about or seen heard about something like this there’s cases of depression of people spending too much time on social media because they keep scrolling through all their friends stuff which everyone’s happy and they’re not and I’m like well you know what comes scroll through mine because I’m gonna tell you that I make an and and since I do these live videos every day and I’m I’ll drop the camera I’ll like you know I’m not in the focus in the thing and then I’m forget you’re gonna I do have that happen to you must be talking about one over two weeks ago your are the two things I’m known for one and then I get all off track and I say hello to everybody in this and that and whatever and I’m sure I have more excuses and I’m sticking to all of them and then I stopped the recording I hit end and then I’m like holy crap you know what I didn’t even say the second one so I was like hey Bravo light bulb I got the subject of tomorrow’s video perfect and so I stepped on tomorrow’s video I turn on the camera hey say hey hello it’s Steve and my screw-up of the day yesterday was I said two things that I got to secret so I’m gonna share only shared one so I’m a total screwup and the good news is today I’m gonna share the other one it’s perfect I mean pretty simple this is the idea sort of – and you’re I think you’re very good at this everyone the better people I’ve ever seen do this because you do you just plow forward you’re taking that imperfect action you’re not afraid to you know it’s like you said to drop the camera or maybe what people would call look bad yeah because then people would say oh you should you should hit that you should stop it and and delete it and start over and whatever and I’m like don’t be ridiculous yeah it’s unnecessary because you’re gonna do another one tomorrow no you know I know for a long time I’ve been known as straight talk Steve and I’ve been known as a no BS guy and speaking of Dan Kennedy that’s his brand the no BS friend so I remember telling some people I was thinking of becoming one of these Dan Kennedy no BS advisers and people like that’s perfect for you you’re no BS that’s right Steve that’s right up your alley it’s so straight talk no BS means when I make a screw up you see it I make a screw up there’s no hit the edit button and start over and oh I’ll tell you when I have to start over I don’t start over but when I start again cuz once in a while I’m out and I’m recording it while I’m driving or walking or somewhere or whatever and it’s got a bad connection and it just cuts off in the middle that just I just lose the internet and I’m like holy crap I’m in the middle of this thing and so I don’t want to start over so I just go on again and I go part two here’s part two I’m back again is anyone still with me I guess not I screw the whole thing up and Here I am and then when I I take that video and then I put it on to YouTube Twitter or LinkedIn my podcast my blog my facebook page my dis that and remember all the places I put it and I’m like all pain in the butt I need to first go online to the free editing to videos together paid software thing download and I get to put these two together and what a waste the time when much rather and put the whole thing up warts and all right because I news flash I’m a human being so there’s warts and all and a second of all if anybody has any fear about recording in the video you know go to Steve Cypress on Facebook and take a look at me guys not afraid the short bald guy with the glasses and you know I hate shaving and I wear a stupid ugly red Hawaiian shirt every day like you get what you get you don’t get me looking good and and whatever and this and that none of that crap so now I I will one caveat because when sometimes when women are gonna say you know gee I don’t like the way I look on video I am a more sympathetic to women because they will say I got to do my makeup my hair every I don’t feel like about that I unders damn guys were more like you know whatever goes Oh like me I can roll out of bed and you know Here I am I look the same as if I just came out of the beauty parlor if is if I ever went in a beautiful nine years of door-to-door sales I went into beauty parlors but otherwise or or hanging out waiting for my wife and my mom when I was a kid in the beauty parlor but otherwise this is what you get but I do make that exception sometimes women feel well I got to do a little bit to do my hair my makeup or whatever okay very good but I will tell you and if you see and even this goes for movie stars movie stars or the car – and you know it’s one reason I know people don’t like to hear it but the Kardashians are brilliant marketers and perhaps everything we just talked about is the biggest reason why you see warts-and-all and people got to have no talent they have no skill that’s true but they do have something other people don’t have they have the willingness to invite the entire world into their entire life works warts and all and let me ask every single person who says oh I have no respect the Kardashians will you do that would you invite an international camera crew to come in and film you 24 hours a day good bed and different everything that’s going on and put that out for the whole world to see the answer is no you won’t and therefore you don’t get 50 million dollars a year or whatever the heck they all make so they’re willing to bare their soul and so all of us on a much smaller scale least to begin with if we bear our soul well no pun intended because that’s how Kim Kardashian get started right she bared a little more than her soul but you’re inviting people into the most intimate embarrassing parts your life she willingly did it and she doesn’t have to have any skilled talent or anything else she laughs all the way to the bank does whatever she wants marries a super-duper recording superstar and has a great life and or as whatever life she wants makes a lot of money everyone at home it says you know we also you know another one again like them hate them ever there’s not much in between but like we have a president now here in the US and the White House who is pretty much the same way that’s why nothing can stop I’m in every real politician or in a normal human being would of course drop out of the race on any number of a dozen ridiculous embarrassing stupid things he said or done or been uncovered and he just keeps plowing along as he goes I don’t care I mean just look at the way he combs his hair I mean he clearly does not give a crap what anyone thinks about him and you can reveal this and that and I just love what me criticizes other people for doing this stuff he does like Harvey Weinstein slept with some women you know that’s outrageous I’m like really now you just said that or you know me by American made in America I’m like really none your stuff this mean it’s just amazing like in nothing to all drama Kings not a war hero I’m like yeah but you were you’re a draft dodger I mean it’s just it’s amazing so the guy bares his soul becomes a billionaire gets to be President Kardashian’s Trump a whole bunch of others me I’m not putting myself in the same scent but in that vein you know well I’m gonna hate him or whatever all we do is go out there and say Here I am that’s the important part which is putting yourself out there and like you said warts and all and if you’re looking at the various people you just talked about including yourself guess what works well in my line my line I used for years never works but it doesn’t work anymore because thanks to Trump thanks a lot Trump because people used to say man you should run for office and I always had an easy answer that the truth is of course I have no interest in running for office like I like give me a break but but but I used to say man I got so many scaled into the closet I could never run for office that Trump has to come along me wrong I’m like holy crap I don’t think I’ve had many skeletons of closet but even if I do clearly it doesn’t matter anymore so I’m off of that one and now I just got to say I don’t want to do it so let’s shift gears a bit now than Steve let’s you mentioned earlier in the show that you have a you know you had this long history of helping small business owners you could sort of foresee I’m sure it’s much like you know as a copywriter I see the same problem same mistakes being made over and over again I’m sure just like with you you see the same mistakes being made over by business owners and running their business into the ground or whatever what are some of these big obstacles business owners don’t see coming and and sort of what do you do about these things well here’s the biggest one people well there’s a few big one here’s one big one is business owners get way too carried away with the what of all about themselves and what they do and their product or their service and always tweaking and improving it and making it better and in my experience you know you get to a point and there’s diminishing returns I mean your product the service let’s take a well you mentioned copy rose take a copywriter copywriters are pretty darn good copywriter he can write stuff that sells and so he can go out and you know apprentice under the Great’s and study ten more courses and and hand write 30 more long-form sales letters by hand ten times each over and over every weekend for a year and he’s gonna get a little bit better but come on now you’re pretty much and the same goes for a dentist or a doctor or a lawyer whatever you know you reach the boy you have an excellent product service and now really that’s what I call the ante to get in the game but now start playing the game and the game is sales and marketing that’s where all the money comes from so you know we just mentioned some people we do you know Donald Trump is he the the greatest real estate person of all time or the smartest businessperson of course not is he the smartest a greatest politician of all of course not like is Kim Kardashian the smartest the greatest I don’t know they owned a clothing store or a– or or having sex yeah put on a sex tape was she the greatest sexual performer of all time or was she the biggest celebrity that ever have a sex tape probably neither I never seen it but I’m guessing neither so it’s not about being you know going overboard to being the best in it and outrageously working on what you do start working on the marketing I’ll bet that she marketed that sex tape more than anybody ever marketed a sex tape in fact she marketed herself didn’t she get her start by just being like Paris Hilton’s friend or so yeah she marketed the heck out of that I have a feeling that Paris Hilton had other friends and not to not to make this all about the Kardashians but I read something about a couple of months ago that one of the Kardashian sisters who give me a like you couldn’t pay me enough to know their names but one and I know they all start with the same letter for crying out loud so one of these sisters with the letter starting K I’m sure is now set to be or already as the youngest self-made billionaire in the history of the world and they have all these naysayers who already nay say everything like I just said it about the Kardashians who are they’re not you know they can’t do anything they were like she’s not self-made she’s a Kardashian I’m like get a hold of yourself aren’t there other Kardashians are every one of them a billionaire before they’re 20 the answer is no so there is something she did she had a good jumping-off point I guess is that what you’re saying she which makes sense she was probably on that TV show from when she was 10 or 12 or 15 or 8 or I don’t know what but I think she has other sisters who were the same age or two years old or younger or whatever so not all of them are billionaires so yes there’s something she did herself self-made and became a billionaire so instead of all the naysaying and going I feel I’m high and mighty because I have such an excellent product to service and these other people and Steve snipers are all talking about these people that are not great at what they do or they’re not great people or Trump is you know not ethical whatever you know whatever but the guy gets out there he takes massive that’s you know nobody can deny the guy takes massive action I mean he’s tweeting 24 other guys you know yeah right will you like anyone he takes a break and they criticize all ways playing golf all the time like well you know I counsel my clients to play golf I don’t know if you don’t want to quiet a certain point there’s a point where the doing of the business of putting out the marketing is not going to attract the top connections and relationships you want to make and those are done by attending high-end mastermind events or playing golf with movers and shakers of the world getting out on the yacht where the top movers and shakers are and so Trump alright last I heard I’m not sure if you could ever say Trump played a round the golf alone he certainly not since he’s been present so he strategically way over the head or I don’t even know things I think there’s a lot of people understand that but they’re disingenuous and they just still put forth their anti-trump or whatever always playing golf yeah but he’s playing golf with the president here and the president of there and I’m sure they even got a got to have a translator along right cuz he’s playing with the Korean guy in the Japanese the Chinese and the distant that or whatever so things are getting done he’s connecting with Phoebe’s getting what are you doing are you working on your gizmo or you practice you know getting your you know that you can pull a teeth bet to pull a tooth better or if you teach more martial arts you can break a board better or if that’s not it the money’s in the marketing the money’s in the connections get it out there and make more and better connections and do more and better marketing get more and better people doing your marketing doing your sales putting the systems together getting you in the right rooms to connect with the right people I mean how about this one here I am speaking to David Allen’s audience connecting with David Allen how did this connection happen was it because you I think you told me you you watch yeah or you heard a podcast you watch one of my videos or something you say like I couldn’t be speaking to this audience right now and hopefully helping somebody out if I wasn’t out there and put myself in the higher circles and I’ll be in attending an event next week and whenever I speak in attend events I tell people when I first was attending and speaking of conferences and seminars and events I was taking notes and sitting there up in the front row and paying attention and then over time I realized you know pretty much number one they’re all kind of the basics of the basics number two the top speakers are the celebrities they got all their talks in their speak there’s the tux they’re all on YouTube where they’re on a TED talk somewhere else and so when I go to events now I almost never even go into the room we hang out with the top sponsors the speakers and certainly the host of the meeting and I’m gonna be making those connections indeed damn right I’m gonna be playing golf and out on yachts and doing all these things that maybe you know naysayers are gonna go oh he’s not working well Kardashian’s never look like they’re working Donald Trump never looks like he’s working I probably never look like I’m working but I know what I’m doing I’m making strategic connections so that I connect those people with my clients so they can make those strategic connections and things are getting done systems are getting into place things are happening and I’m bringing people along two levels of success they never dreamed of well you have delivered and you know every every instance of that word you have delivered Steve now if people want to get in touch with you they want to hear more of your ramblings and your daily Facebook live and stuff where can people get a hold of you where should they well Facebook lies you go to Facebook but I am serious with people’s time when it’s serious so you can go to help from Steve calm and you can get help for me now warning though especially when I do these and I speak and whatever there’s I do have a waiting list there’s a there’s a pileup of people so I don’t you know I have I have a life I have a wife I have clients I have things to do and so I don’t get to as many in a day as I should so there is a waiting list if you put on there something like you know her John David Allen or uh I liked your dumb joke about that give me some reason or you know some exciting goal you have or some reason to kind of move you up on the list when I look through them because I I gotta say you know I’m just again I’m no BS I’m just gonna tell you I look through room all and I’m like boring boring boring boring give me something new fun interesting a big goal give me some reason to really talk to this guy and I’ll move you up on the list because just like the the way I disjointedly haphazardly did this interview it’s the same way I go through my waiting list I don’t it’s not first in last out I mean can I’m in charge here I look at the list and I go that one looks interesting let’s get on the phone with him or her so help from Steve calm you I think I ask you a couple of questions and then you can get a link right to my personal calendar pick a time we get on the phone and my guarantee is I guarantee to find you at least $25,000 in your business in one 25 minute phone call so there won’t be a lot of rambling and messing around there I’ll be asking key questions getting right to the point and giving you way or ways to make a lot of money in a short amount of time because when it comes right down to it I’ve had a lot of fun here but actually when it’s serious that’s what I do right awesome awesome way to deliver you heard it you need help from Steve you go to help from Steve comp and you’ll find him and you can definitely I recommend checking out his Facebook live videos there they’re funny they’re super informative and you get to see what cool Hawaiian shirt he’s gonna do Steve Cypress everybody he has just knocked it out of the park he came in swinging he never let up he’s tireless and Steve I really want to thank you for coming on the show I can’t thank you no for having me this is a lot of fun I can’t think of anything I’d rather do for the last hour since I don’t know what channel the Kardashian shows for everybody else we’ll be back hopefully with somebody next week who’s even 1/2 or 1/4 of the energy and knowledge of Steve Cypress until then The post Episode #204 – Steve Sipress On Stepping Out On A Limb. How to Attract Business To You With Authenticity appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


27 Nov 2018

Rank #13

Podcast cover

Episode #201 – Erik Stafford On Overcoming The “Secret Sadness” of Business.

I conducted this interview with Erik back in November of 2016. Intended to release it under the Takeover Tuesday banner, I held it back when I came over to the McMethod. It is a very important episode and one every entrepreneur should listen to. A great many of you will have experienced exactly what Erik speaks of. The “secret sadness”. He has had this particular “sadness” inflict itself on his life three times. Each of these events spiked with a “harajuku” moment. A realization which said he could not move further down the path. Erik admits much of this is painful to state. Vulnerability is not seen as an admirable business trait. By talking about this though it will shift into the open. Freeing others to talk about it too. What impact does this have on your life? Your family? Your clients? Erik goes into painstaking detail about this most intimate subject. This is a superb episode. In this episode, you’ll discover: The stunning “kids and I will be homeless” email he woke up to one morning. The truth behind the 5 options you have of dealing with your “harajuku” moment. A little-known secret can steer you through these type of events with confidence. How to avoid falling into the “prostitutes, drugs and alcohol” scenarios. The “seat-belt” moment which instigated Erik losing 60 pounds. Mentioned: Stafford Marketing Erik Stafford on Facebook Erik Stafford’s blog David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey, everybody today on the show we have Eric Stafford. I think I first heard about Eric from buddy of mine Colin Theriot, and you guys are good buddies Eric? Erik Stafford: We are. I’ve known Colin for a number of years he’s a very good dude. David Allan: Now you come from an advertising and design background you’ve won a bunch of awards and you’ve been a serial entrepreneur, product creator and soforth lending your expertise to multiple businesses over time how did you get into the, you know, the advertising world and maybe take us through your sort of superhero origin story about how you got into all this. Erik Stafford: No sure absolutely so on you know I guess you could probably say gave that my life has been a series of realizations and moments where I just you know sort of was like well this just isn’t gonna cut it anymore and I’m not sure if you could say that’s true about everyone but I think that’s probably true about most people I thinkmost people you know when they look back on their life with a critical eye they can kind of see where they had these very specific moments where they just decided look something’s got to change right and I know that I’m a marketing wonk so I read a lot of books I know that Malcolm Gladwell called this a Harajuku moment. A moment… a defining moment right? And I think Tim Ferriss may have had stolen that from him and used it and what his folks as well but the first one that I can think of specifically as it relates to busines was you know I had two young kids and we had built a very successful advertising agency here in Southwest Florida but I was working 80-hour weeks and I just you know I just one morning realize look you know I can’t do this I can’t do this forever you know I I will work my way into a grave and my kids will be you know grown and gone and I won’t I will never know them and you know it’s a painful realization because my entire life I had wanted growing up to be a creative director in an ad agency right and so I you know I out there and I got to that point and realized well you know I’m not happy and you know we were winning all these incredible awards addy awards and Art Awards and um we’re even featured in all sorts of press we’re doing incredible work for clients that really inspired me but it just it just wasn’t sustainable as far as I was concerned and so I realized I had to make a change and so you know I majored in fine art grew up got to the position that I wanted to be in in sort of the creative world I was running an ad agency the creative to the creative department of an ad agency and so I realized something had to change and so I started researching different businesses that I may start and that led me into internet marketing and led me to creating my first products and things of that nature and I developed a bunch of digital products I hadn’t built an incredibly successful business and then one morning woke up and realized that I was unhappy with that business and I understand right now that I’m probably coming across as the most ungrateful turd on the planet but but that’s literally what happens to me yeah well that’s exactly why I wanted you on the show I’d seen a video yours I think you went on so Facebook live or something and you were talking about you know how you woke up one day and just realized and it sounds like for the second time or more that this wasn’t what you wanted to be doing and you know I have definitely felt that way for sure I definitely instantly related to that I’d started other businesses in the past and and gone on for some cases years and then realized this is just not what I thought it would be and definitely don’t want to do this anymore and you know I I would just outright just quit like that day basic right as if as if I was never interested in it at all and so that’s that’s so maybe talk about that I mean I think it takes a while to get to that point to that maybe people don’t even realize because I know I didn’t yeah I mean it depends you know I tend to think that entrepreneurs are wired a little bit differently than the normal people and you know most entrepreneurs myself included aren’t willing really so much to settle and so even if I were willing to settle I don’t think the universe is willing to let me settle and so that’s the whole reason that I quote-unquote quit my job to begin with was because I just didn’t didn’t feel that working that many hours and missing that much of my kid’s life was something that I could put up with right and so that’s why I quit my job to begin with and so when this happened the second time in my business when I fast forward from you know from the early two-thousands to like 2008 and this happened in my own business it was a very sort of similar thing it was like you know I’ve woke up and realized I hated my business but it was quite a bit it was quite a bit harder for me to get my head around and it was quite a bit harder for me to stomach but it’s it’s a very similar feeling it’s like right well you know I’m not willing to do this anymore this just doesn’t work for me anymore but when you’re an entrepreneur and it’s your own business and it’s something you’ve built with your own two hands from scratch especially you know when you’re in an industry you know sort of similar to the industry that I was working and at the time you know is working in sort of like personal development online marketing digital digital product development things like that it’s very difficult it’s very difficult to admit and and I think this may be true for a lot of business owners difficult to admit that you’re unhappy when you’ve worked so hard to build something that on the surface appears to be going so well right right and so you know at the time I was spending all the time in the world that I wanted with my kids my wife and I were extremely happy I built an engineer to life that I really wanted but I really had always envisioned but the physical act of doing the work that it took to live that life I hated it and it’s it’s tough to admit that you know there’s people that subscribe to entrepreneurial style followings there’s a lot of talk about being grateful and about gratitude and about abundance and so it’s very difficult you know to say that you’re unhappy you can be grateful and yet I’m happy but I didn’t quite understand the distinction at the time and so I just remember a very long period of time of me sort of thinking myself like Eric what’s wrong with you man why are you so on the motivated are you say depressed like look at you know look at the money you make and look at how you get to live your life like if you told any of your friends that you felt this way they would they would laugh at you they would think you’re in it but I couldn’t hide I couldn’t hide from those feelings I you know I I clearly was not happy and so it’s a very difficult thing when you’re an entrepreneur to sort of own that and separate it from thoughts of like not being grateful or not feeling fun the secret sadness it is yeah it’s sort of this painful solo you know journey that entrepreneurs have to take and you know I’ve not heard anyone else talking about this and yet I know it to be true for a lot of my peers and my colleagues and my friends and you know I’m I’m grateful that when I went through this process and as you said I’ve gone through this process three times now but I’m grateful that uh you know I kept the rails on somewhat for each of those three transitions right but you know I know a lot of people where this process is led to you know heavy heavy alcohol abuse and heavy drug abuse and lots of you know trips to Vegas and full of spending of money interactions with prostitutes cheating on spouses even in some cases suicide and it’s just it’s a it’s a secret sadness that not many entrepreneurs are really able to talk about or discuss and an own you know it’s really difficult to aim the lens at yourself and I certainly know I didn’t feel like I could talk with my wife about this you know my wife just wanted to know that everything was gonna be fine and that we would still be able to get Evan the private soccer lessons and that we’d still be able to take the summer road trip and um you know so I very much felt alone in this journey I didn’t feel like I could speak with any of my colleagues or peers I didn’t want anyone to perceive me as being weak and so it just was that sort of thing I just sort of sat with yeah I think that’s uh that’s I’ve seen that I think I saw it until we started talking here just recently about this I you know I sort of reflected knowing that you were coming on the show just kind of like you know where have I seen this elsewhere you know and I was just like yeah you know I can pinpoint a few other people where I just like they said things to me at the time which didn’t really register and I thought to myself probably what you like you were saying about your friends how they would have judged you I think I probably I never said it to their face but if I judge a thing like man you know talking about but I was just kind of like oh man I’m sure it’ll pass kind of thing you know and then and then I had it happen to me in at least one occasion where I was just like man I just don’t want to do this I just and I think it was a sort of multifactorial problem that sort of I came into and that I really just wasn’t what I thought it was I didn’t really want to do it anymore because I aspect of it but not the other six you know yeah I could I remember thinking myself like really I worked so hard for this and it’s finally I was finally going successful yeah but you could see that it was going to be so for you and you’ve done this now three times where did you start with at first did you realize like I got a I mean obviously quit but but I mean did you have a specific plan of action that you were gonna take or did you later come into that well I mean I think it all starts with that sort of harajuku moment that moment where you’re like shit what have I done like a moment that moment where you go how did I how did I get here you know and it’s funny because you know I can track moments like that throughout my life now that I know what to look for in terms of you know relationships or in terms of my health you know if if you’re overweight you know you you will never lose the weight that you want until you have that moment no amount of your spouse beating on you you know I speak from experience I lost 60 pounds over the last several years and it wasn’t easy yeah yeah thank you man I appreciate it it wasn’t easy but it became so much easier once I had that moment and that moment in terms of my weight loss was I actually was flying somewhere and couldn’t get a seatbelt around right and the stewardess said to me do you want a seatbelt extender which apparently in America is a thing which is even creepier but but anyway that was the moment dude where I was like this has to change this this this is embarrassing this is shocking this is shin I hate this this has to change and so it starts with that moment and the moment with the ad agency with with my sort of first career was I lived about about a 20 mile drive from the office but during season you know Florida’s very seasonal during seasons sometimes that drive could take upwards of two hours and so during season I would I would try and go to the office really early to avoid traffic and then come home either early in the day if possible which never happened or late at night and one night I was driving home late at night and I started to fall asleep at the wheel and I opened my eyes and snapped out of it and realized I was in the middle of a red light and so I slammed on the brakes and my Jeep sort of fishtailed and did this earth thing and I stopped at 2:30 in the morning in the middle of a red light with no other cars around anywhere if there had been a car there I would have been killed and that was the moment where I was like yeah I got to do something about this and so it starts with that moment and it’s funny dude you had said you know that you know there’s been a couple times in your life where you found yourself in situations where you’re like yeah right this doesn’t work for me I’m blowing this up I’ve done and that certainly is you know one of the op in my experience when this happens there’s there’s four options the first option is to ignore it and do nothing which we’ve talked about a little bit I don’t know for most people especially entrepreneurs I don’t know that that’s really an option right I don’t think entrepreneurs are really wired that way and I think you know we might be able to ignore for a little while because we like you know we like giant incomes and we like being able to have that car or we like being able to live the life we live or whatever but right I don’t I don’t think for most of us we can ignore it forever so I don’t really see the first option as an option the second option is to quite simply get fed up and blow it up and just walk away again I don’t know that that’s the best option but again we’re finicky beasts us entrepreneurs and sometimes we’ve just had enough and that’s it right so um that certainly is what happened in 2010 or so with the first internet business that I had built I woke up one morning I received an email from a customer a guy that had purchased one of my courses in the middle of the night and he emailed me and said hey bro I bought your course in the middle of the night it really needs to work for me because if it doesn’t I need to make five grand by this might even three grand I need to make several grand by this weekend otherwise my kids and I will be homeless Wow and I was like yep I’m done you know because my sales letters never promised any sort of money from the sky or any other yeah but at the time you know it was 2010 and the the housing crisis was becoming a very real situation that the banking collapse was looming and it was just a very difficult time for a lot of people and my systems and my lead generation systems my affiliate stuff was geared to bring me those people and I didn’t realize it until that moment and and at that point I blew that business up I literally uh I logged in oh my god I can’t believe him tell people I logged into autoresponder I deleted 75,000 people from my email us Wow and then I logged into my CMS or whatever and I deleted all of my monthly members I had over a thousand people paying us $50 a month for a monthly membership for training and stuff and I logged into my FTP client deleted all my websites and I basically blew it up I blew it up and I walked away and I like to tell people that you know I had sunglasses on I was walking slowly it was exploding behind me it was very cool there were kittens involved like it you know that’s but no in truth told brother it was extremely painful I spent I spent a long time right it’s just not understanding what had happened how I built a business I hated and not understanding what to do next worried about my family and not sleeping it was a terrible time when I felt like a failure dude because you know who he does that right and so I think the first step is that Harajuku moment of realizing that you are no longer comfortable where you’re at and you’re no longer willing to settle with where you’re at and then the second step is understanding that it’s okay and understanding that all businesses go through silence and that all entrepreneurs shift and change goals shift and change a good example of that being Netflix you know your your your longer in the tooth like I am you remember when Netflix used to just be a DVD company they would send you DVDs in the mail and they transitioned from that to being an online service and now they’re transitioning from that into being a movie studio yeah right and so on you know this stuff it when you understand that this stuff is inevitable and that it’s natural and it doesn’t mean that you’re a failure then you can start to look at other options besides the first two which are to ignore it or to blow it up right okay you see a lot of people serve and that maybe that’s exactly why is you know you see people pivoting their businesses and so forth and you think to yourself oh this guy’s just being very clever trying to get into something new but I’m thinking about it now I’m probably sure there’s a lot of those scenarios with a person well that’s how they got out of where they were yeah if they’re smart I mean it it definitely takes a lot of self-awareness and it takes a lot of a willingness to really aim the lens at your own self which can which can be painful it’s it’s not always been an easy process but but I you know I will say that when you understand that this sort of thing happens you know I was chatting I was chatting with one of my favorite authors a guy named Marty Neumayer who wrote a book called the brand gap and he wrote also called zag which are incredible marketing books but I was chatting with him once and and I was explaining this to him and he goes oh yeah dude like that’s happened to me like six times in my life that happens to me like every two years and I was like shut up really I don’t hear about this on you know on podcaster in the interview I don’t hear anyone talking about this and he’s like now dude it’s totally natural like you know everyone pivots my first business was designing software boxes there’s not even software boxes anymore let alone a computer stores to buy software and I had changed my business and I was like oh wow shit and so um yeah I mean understanding it and owning it allows you to look at like you had just mentioned the other two options which are you know to remove yourself from your business you know methodically remove yourself whether it’s something as simple as just starting to outsource some of the things that make you the most unhappy document what you’re doing and outsource it or hire someone to come in and and do those tasks so that you don’t have to and you can focus on other more more liberating and more more soul filling tasks in your business or you know to go as deep as to remove yourself completely you know to hire an Operations Manager and pay him a large salary and just take a smaller percentage of the business and let someone else run it or even sell your business right that’s certainly an option and then you know the fourth option is to realign your business which you had mentioned it’s to sort of pivot and and move your business back into alignment with your ethics and with with you know where you’re at and what your goals are right you’ve seen that over time with a few I’m trying to think it doesn’t matter even to mention you know names but you certainly have seen that in the internet marketing thing over time you’ve seen a few people go through that where they chose to rely in they’re there for ethical issues or whatever their reasons were you can sort of see you know coming up born-again marketer almost of thing right that yeah it’s tough man it’s tough to separate it’s tough to separate the reality from the chaff because you know I know certain markers who have a retirement sale every year right so I mean it’s um it’s a very strange place it’s a you know it’s not an entrepreneurial it’s not commonly seen to be an entrepreneurial trait to be vulnerable right and to be open and to be shamelessly honest with yourself everyone needs to appear bullet right and so it requires a certain level of vulnerability to really look at where you’re at and say you know look I’m grateful I’m grateful but I’m unhappy there’s a big big difference the most recent time that this realignment occurred for me was at the beginning of the summer and at the time you know I loved everything about my life except what I had to do to live it that was super happy we were making great money I was never wearing shoes I was working on my lanai in the beautiful Florida weather I was working out at the gym a lot I was going to yoga a lot I was eating lunch with my friends almost every day I was watching a ton of European soccer yeah life was a really good man but you know I would open my laptop in the morning and just go oh like really I got to do this today yeah well that’s interesting too because from seeing like you know we’re friends on Facebook and so forth you know just watching you from a distance and that’s what was probably you know real surprising to me when you put up the video and I thought okay well that’s interesting because I’d see your stuff popping up you know you would take your family to Vegas in the Pacific Northwest and so forth and you look like you’re just living the life you know and again that’s part of that you know no one I would have never suspected for a second that you weren’t happy with what you were doing because you know you get the suppression of people based on a series of photos videos or snapshots on the internet or whatever yeah yeah for sure I mean I don’t feel that I was intentionally deceiving people I think I was deceiving myself yeah because I didn’t want to admit it I didn’t want to look at it I didn’t want to cast the lens at myself and and like I had said you know I loved almost every aspect of my life during that time except one and so for me too for me to go really am I gonna I gonna blow something up again or am I gonna I gonna do this again really but like I had said you know as I’ve done this now several times it’s it I will say to those of you listening that it gets less painful every time and it takes less time every time and at least for me it’s been a less radical shift every time so this last time that this happened it was a a slight realignment that really has brought me immense pleasure and happiness and working again that’s great to hear man yeah that sounds like you’ve learned lessons of course from the previous realignments if that’s the term we’re going to use and so yeah the fact that happens quicker and stuff it’s not such a colossal ordeal where you have all these doubts cuz you’ve had these things before and you realize what it is yeah yep yeah the first time it happened I switched entire careers right right and the second time it happened I blew everything up and started over the third time it happened it was merely a realignment a slight adjustment in my path based on my shifting goals okay so let’s take you back to begin let’s take it back to the beginning of the summer what was your business then and what did you realign so I had built I had built a business where I was doing conversion consulting based on my experience in in in the agency world and also in participating in a lot of high-end launches launching my own product split testing a lot of my own pages and a lot of my own assets and then working with clients for so many years but I built a business where I was just consulting and helping other entrepreneurs with their conversions and it was it was a great business it was a really really lucrative business we charged a $2,500 a month flat retainer and we would meet with our clients once a week or twice a month depending on what suited them and you don’t need a whole lot of clients at $2,500 a month to live a very good life but what had happened is a couple of things the first thing that it happened was I let I let some of my clients readjust our arrangement to better suit them and I loved I loved all of the people that I was working with at the time and I don’t think it was malicious but I do think it’s human nature to try and get as much as you possibly can out of any situation that’s why people eat at buffets right and so could you know a couple of my clients one of them in particular they were like oh well you know we fired our in-house team and so is there any way that you could just update all the split tests this week and and because I love watching European soccer and going to yoga and hanging out with my kids I said yeah sure no problem and suddenly I was doing all of the implementation instead of consulting which is how I’d originally envisioned isness right and so there was a lot of school creep there and there was a lot of extra hours that were happening suddenly there and I just didn’t have the balls to tell them no because I loved everything else about my life and so that happened with a couple of my clients one of them I went from consulting to actually writing their emails okay and part of this also is you know I feel a strong sense of responsibility and I wanted my clients to get results and a lot of times I would just say to myself look you know this this guy that’s working for my client is an idiot I’m just gonna do it like just tell your guys to leave this alone I got this yeah because I wanted my clients to get results right and so the business sort of crept up on the intern into something where I was back to doing a lot of pixel pushing and a lot of copy writing and a lot of implementation which is not how I had envisioned the business right another one of my clients landed their dream contract and literally got so busy that they were no longer able to get on the phone with me right and so you know I would I would send them all my recommendations I would send them my conversion on it and I would say hey man look let’s get on the phone next week and they go yeah yeah definitely and then we just never would and so you know man just send the invoice it’s all good we’re just slam and I just I was feeling these people $2,500 a month and literally doing nothing for right it just didn’t sit well with me you know it was minor things and again I understand that I sound like the world’s biggest herb for for being unhappy right to kill someone for doing nothing I you know but but again I mean you only live this life once I think that when you can build a business that’s in such alignment with who you are and with your passions and your goals that it literally is seamless and you show up you know for your wife the same way you show up for your kids and the same exact way that you show up for your clients it is so integrated with how you want to live your life and how you want to show up that there is no distinction that that was my goal and and so I had I had to I had to change it so you made these so this sort of as you were going along and then and what way did you decide okay this is the buck stops here we’re doing this from now on yeah so what happened what happened at the beginning of the summer was that as soon as I sort of realized that I was no longer able to deal with this I think it became very apparent and the work that we were doing for our clients they were still getting results but our heart wasn’t in it within a very short period of time I gently let go of or was let go of by almost all of our clients within the space of six weeks we sort of separated and went our separate ways from nearly all of our clients within six weeks within eight weeks all of them were gone Wow and I tell you what though dude like no joke it was the most liberating feeling in the world because it created space for me to really spend some time over the summer sitting and reflecting on what that ideal business might look like and where I might transition to to fill me up and to make me happy does sound liberating and I could tell just by the way talked about it that it was like this yeah it’s so true and you know it’s an emotional thing for me to discuss because you know I’d said earlier that each time that I’ve gone through this process it’s taken less time and it’s become easier and it’s also it’s also become more liberated and more free and you know I I quite honestly I never I never really thought that it was possible to build a business that I enjoyed so much I never thought that it was possible to do something to where I felt in alignment with with really what I feel I do best for people and how I want to show up and and the results that I get for people the Japanese have a a term for this actually it’s called I key guy i ki GA I I believe but it basically means your reason for being and it’s a combination between that which you love to do and that which the world needs and that which you are very good at and when all of those are in alignment with that which makes you money then you have found your IQ guys according to the Japanese you found your reason for being I found mine I found that yeah it’s no it’s like I don’t know I feel like that scene in the matrix right where every morning I wake up and I grab my bulletproof coffee and it’s like I see the code Wow check this out very cool that’s the slight real in a long roundabout way I’m sorry I didn’t answer your question but the sly tree line that I made was I realized that the best way for me to serve my clients and the thing that I am best at and that which inspires me is to help businesses through this process it’s to help entrepreneurs build businesses or recreate or reinvent their businesses into something that not only makes them more money but also makes them happy right that’s great ma’am it sounds like you really have found that that intersection people need and obviously what you want to do so that’s that’s a great realization thanks man yeah it feels very good so what is the immediate future hold for Eric Stafford are you going to it’s it’s not a sort of situation where it’s like great let’s build a sales team and I’m gonna build a webinar we’re gonna we’re gonna blow this up and you know like like I had mentioned I’m really quite happy with every other aspect of my life and so for me it’s just a matter of putting that intention out there and understanding that this message will resonate with the right people and if if that looks like a great fit for us to work together then I’m certainly open to that and if it isn’t then it isn’t and that’s just out of this and again it’s just super liberating to not feel tied to those outcomes it’s just liberating to know that I’m doing what I’m what I’m here to do and so the clients the clients understand and the right people have showed up and I’m working several clients and and it’s incredibly rewarding now if people do want to get a hold of you and they listen to this and they they feel like they may be in this or quagmire were there you know secretly sad but the what what they want and they’re thinking about pivoting or blowing it up or we’re just suffering and needlessly in desolation that how do people get a hold of you so the best way to reach me you can certainly find me on Facebook I’m guessing if you’re listening to this we probably share some similar friends you can find me on Facebook Eric Stafford on Facebook or you can check out Stafford marketing.com or Eric Stafford calm those are my websites awesome this is something that virtually nobody talks about I’ve never heard another not listen to every podcast on earth but I’ve certainly listened to a lot of the major ones and I’ve never heard anyone I’m really delving into this this is something I think that exists probably in a much greater number than anyone wants to talk about or even understands kind of the tip of the iceberg idea there but you have some real good strategies and I haven’t gone through it yourself Eric it sounds like you got a grip on this thing well thank you very much man I appreciate you having me and uh and I respect what you do so I’m proud to be a part of it thanks a lot Matt and we’ll be back again to the next episode and hopefully we’ll have someone as real and authentic and as kick-ass is Eric The post Episode #201 – Erik Stafford On Overcoming The “Secret Sadness” of Business. appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


14 Aug 2018

Rank #14

Podcast cover

Episode #60 – Rob Hanly on How to Become a Marketing Consultant Using a Simple 3-Step Formula

The Reverend Rob Hanly is here back to back weeks to grace us with his presence… This week he explains how to become a marketing consultant. But instead of preaching what not to do, he tells us what to do. So kiss your four-hour workweek dreams GOODBYE. And say hello to the… Four-HUNDRED-Hour Workweek. No need to fear. Rev’s got you covered. He reveals in full, a 3-step formula ANYONE can use to become a masterful marketing consultant: First, you MUST have a skillset that can solve problems… anything. Once that’s established, you need to show it off to the right people. Step numero dos: Get in front of people that can use your skillset as a solution to their problems and provide them VALUE… This will separate you from the pack (think back to last week’s rule of reciprocity). And Step 3: quite possibly the most important of them all… …commit to taking action EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. To quote the rev: “You don’t grow muscle by sitting in the gym on the floor taking selfies.” You gotta have a skill. You gotta provide value. You gotta COMMIT. If you manage to follow these 3 simple steps without fail… there is no doubt you’re well on your way to becoming a consulting-BAD-ASS. And to help you follow through, Rob and I talk about a secret ingredient that makes all this effort possible. Without it, you will most certainly FAIL. Find out what this secret “thing” is… …add it to the 3-step formula, and POOF… You’ve got yourself a magical combo to world domination. Listen-in and get your marketing consulting game going NOW. In this episode, you’ll discover: how I reach my goals using a move fast – break sh*t philosphy (blast past your goals and pick up new ones) how Rob’s chisel and hammer stacked up against my rocket launcher when comparing success techniques. the hole that Rob plugged which catapulted his success (find your “hole” to fill now) where to spend your time and focus when starting a marketing consultancy (know where you stand and have the upper hand)  the one question you should ask yourself to get in the right frame of mind (start your consultancy here) how polar opposite consulting methods work equally as effective (and how they end up within a percent of eachother) how to wing-it like a pro and be ready for anything (do this and you’ll always be ready) how to find a problem you can solve, and figure out ways to solve it. a caveat that all consultants suffer (what it is and how to avoid it) how providing value helps to grow your client list (choose and run with the right one for you) Mentioned: CopyHour Ramit Sethi Andre Chaperon Seth Godin Viper Chill Dan Andrews Your First Four Figure Client Back Door Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Raw transcript: Download PDF transcript here.  John:Hey everybody it’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder Guy and it’s time for Episode 60: of The McMethod Email Marketing Podcast, where you will discover how to make more money with email marketing and really just all things marketing.   How to make better marketing, so you can make better sales, and you get better results in your business, so you can go and live a great lifestyle, whether it’s  your kids or you go careening around the world or relaxing on the beach, in a hammock and drinking a coconut.   Now, I may live in Thailand, but there’s no beach in Chaing Mai, I’m not really do much of that hammock sitting, I do drink a lot of coconuts, I’m not doing much of that hammock stuff on the beach, unfortunately.  That will be in a couple of weeks and we’ll head down to the beach for a bit of a break, anyway today, I’ll be talking to Rob Hanly about how to get started with consulting. This is an interesting topic, okay, because this has been kind of my background, this is Rob’s background, as well.  Rob was on the Podcast last week, and if you don’t know, he was also the reverend … he was the reverend on a podcast, I think it was Episode 20 to 30ish, I can’t remember exactly what the number was, but he was on there as well and now he coming out. He is a consultant, quite a high paid consultant too. He’s got some great strategies to share on this.  But, why this is interesting is that, I get a lot of emails from people who are listening to this show and they want to be consultants or they’re in the process of becoming one or they’ve quit their jobs and they are a consultant but they’re not getting very good results yet. They want to know how to get clients, they want to know how to make it work so they can find a hammock on a beach and drink coconuts, or just live in New York or London or Sidney or just have a kick ass life.  That’s what we’re going to talk about today. It’s really how to do … like Rob’s story and my story, how we’re similar but very different and how getting started with consulting and really kicking ass, isn’t that complicated. You don’t need a huge amount of stuff to get it done.  You don’t need to be an expert; you don’t need tons of training or anything. You really just need the right mind set, the right set of beliefs and a couple of new, couple tricks of the trade and that’s really it, okay. There’s not a magic way to do it, very simple and we’re going to talk about it, step by step process today!  To get us started, the best episode of the Email Marketing podcast go to themcmethod.com/-6-0, that’s themcmethod.com/60.  Now, todays, McMasters Insider of the week is, “I find, I spend so much time researching my copywriting tasks, it’s probably my biggest bottleneck.” This came from one of the members of McMasters, which is a paid community, which I’ll tell you a bit about in a second.  Talk about this Insider though, and basically what he is saying, he spends so much time researching his prospects, probably going into Amazon reviews, maybe speaking to them on the phone. interviewing them, looking at surveys, doing the forms, basically so much time trying to figure out who he is trying to write copy for, that’s where he spends most of his time, is his biggest bottle neck.  Here’s why this is an Insider, because he’s saying it like it’s a bad thing, but this is the way it should be. It’s the research, right, that creates the empathy which is really what creates great copy. Great copy doesn’t come from writing all the time; also you need to be able to write.  If you have to come up with a great sales letter, that great sales letter is not going to be great because you spent 90% of your time writing it, but it’s going to be great because you spent over 50% of your time, researching it, okay.  Now I remember there’s a quote from Rammit Sethi, in one of Derrick Halpern’s podcasts, I think it was, he said, “He spent 50% to 60% of his time on his research.” He’s doing this and this guy’s got a multi-million dollar business. He sells a lot of information products; he has a blog, a whole bunch of stuff.  He’s at, iwillteachyoutoberich.com; he’s a guy worth following for email marketing, as well as, all the other marketing stuff but he swears by this researching stuff. The insider that I want you to understand is that, great copy comes from in-depth research.  Go grab a coffee, go to a coffee shop, spend two, three, four hours each day for a few days, maybe longer, however long you feel you need and you really want to overload your brain with as much information as you can about who the prospect is, what they care about, what their dreams are, what their goals and you want to actually get to the point where you feel overloaded with information, okay. Then start to map out maybe, like a graphs or sales letter outlet, start to brain storm some ideas how you can connect to this prospect, who  you now understand, better than they understand himself.  Start to brainstorm, how are you going to connect that with your product that you’re trying to sell.  You’re really want your brain to feel frustrated so it’s gets that point of overload. We talked about this in the podcast with Stephen Cutler, which is where you overload your brain like this.  This is part of getting into flow and then alright, then you back off. Go and get a massage, take a day or two off, two or three days off, whatever.  What’s going to happen is your brain your brain is going to be taking over, your subconscious brain is going to be working on in and then a couple of days go back, you don’t even think of …  and you consciously try not to think about it.   Then you go, come back to work a couple of days later and you sit down and you start writing and you find that nine times out of ten, you know exactly what to write, it’s all going to come out very quickly and especially if you can get rid of that editing voice, that critical part of your brain, that tells you ‘that’s no good.’ Get rid of that, and just write.  All that research you did, overloading of your brain, that’s really going to drive this fantastic sells letter, okay. That’s the Inside.  Spend more time researching and less time writing. Now reviews, if you want to leave a review for the show, you’ll help me spread the word, we’ll make another case study out of it, I can get more people on the podcast, anything to make my day. Go to iTunes, search for, the McMethod Email Marketing podcast and leave me a review. Tell me what you think about the show.  Got one listener question now, how important is continuing an overriding theme or story throughout an S.O.S? S.O.S. stands for Soap Opera Secrets, this refers to Andre Chaperon’s strategy in autoresponder matters, where you write a story in your email sequence, but instead of a story being in one email, the story carries over five, ten how many emails, it never really ends.  The idea is by telling a story that doesn’t ever end, in a given email. It’s a bit like a TV series where once you watch one or two episodes you have to watch the next one because at the end of every episode, they start to give you a little hint of about what’s coming next week.  That triggers a part of the brain that is it’s kind of like, well you need to have completion, like it is with dating. You want to resolve something, you want to have completion. This is to do with stories, like TV shows, you have to have completion of that TV show that’s why you keep watching those episodes, the same thing with those emails.  Something, I’m not a huge fan of this strategy with emails mainly because it’s triggering people to open the emails instead of buy your stuff. If you spend too much time   and getting hooked on the free information and the receiving and not buying, then you end up with a list of people that who really don’t like to buy stuff. Which, it’s not good.  Suppose you were going to do it, you’re going to try it anyway, you wanted to test it and you’re going to do a Soap Opera Sequence, right, a story over several emails and how important it is it continuing an overriding theme or story?    I would say it’s not that important. I think you could mix it up, I think it’s good when you can mix it up, you can start telling a story and then say in the next email you’ll hear about,  how Joe is going to save the life of Dave, something like that, whatever. Then in the next email, you just completely drop that. Maybe you come back to Dave in a few emails, come back to that story in a few emails. Is there an overwriting theme, maybe, but maybe not?  I just read a book by Charles Bukowski, yeah that his’ name, “Post Office”, this guy gets raving reviews from people about his writings, but I read his book. There’s almost no overriding theme, I don’t know what it’s about. It’s a good book, its fun to read and I did want to read it to the end, but it’s not like a normal book. It’s just a story that never really … like it’s interesting, that’s the interesting part, but it never really gets anywhere. There doesn’t seem to be any point to the story, then it just ends and it’s done.  You can do this with an S.O.S., you can jump around, you can be confusing, all … I think actually the more confusing you can be, to a point, the better; because it’s going to mean that people keep showing up to read because they want to know what the hell is going on, okay.  That’s it for that question, I hope that helps. Now lets get into this podcast, with Mr. Rob Hanly, about “How to Get Started with Consulting”.  It’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder Guy; I’m here with another podcast with the good old Reverend. Now a couple of weeks ago, would have been last week or maybe the week before that, we talked about the three reasons your marketing strategy will fail, and that was for business owners and consultants and even people just getting started. There’s some really key reasons why people don’t succeed. They never get thrashing, they never really get off the ground. Today we’re going to mix that up. I got him back on the show because he is actually a very successful consultant and when people usually come to me through our email, they’ve heard me on … they’ve heard this podcast, they’ve heard me on, say on Entrepreneur File, with John Lee Dumas.  They’ve heard me on one of these tell us your story podcast, where I went to the Philippine’s, I kind of failed a bunch, took up copywriting and started making money, moved to Thailand, and now kind of like this, what seems to a lot of people who have jobs back in an office and all that kind of crap, is that seems like an idea lifestyle. A lot of people are very interested in that.  What I want to bring up, the Reverend [Inaudible 00:08:13], was to talk about his consulting and actually how to get started, right, because there are people here, maybe it’s you, the listener and you’ve heard about copywriting, you’ve heard about marketing and what you really want to do is, figure out how can you, use what you’ve learn on this podcast. Use what you’ve learn from something like CopyHour, which is a Copywriting Training Program or other marketing podcast, to kind of escape the cubicle, which is such a cliché phrase these days, but get out of that cubicle, so you can kind of get out there and move to Thailand, move to South America, start doing Skype calls to clients in the U.S. and Australia and U.K. and make money doing that.  Anyway, we’re going to talk about that in this episode with Rob’s story, John’s story, bunch of stuff but really how to get started with consulting and make money so you can fire your boss and come and live in Thailand and hang out and drink the best coffee in Chaing Mai, I’ll show you where that coffee shop is, it’s really cool.  Reverend, what’s up man?  Rob:Just chillin like a villain on the ceiling.  John:Chillin like a villain on the ceiling.  Rob:By Bob Dillion.  John:I hear … I was going to say, you should do an intro, but I’ve got one thing right here. Point number one, is Rob’s story that would be like the best intro, any of us could give. Chillin like a villain, Mr. Villian right here, can you give us the villain story, Rob Hanly’s story?  Rob:I can, ultimately what I ended up doing was I got involved in consulting a couple of years ago and I previously already done some client work. I was a ADHD mentor originally, ended up working as a graphic designer, working media as a digital producer, had a pretty varied background, worked across a couple of different industries with clients as well as any actually work I was doing myself.  John:You had a job?  Rob:I had a job, crazy right.  John:You worked in an office? Rob:I worked in an office.  John:Like there was a coffee machine, bosses, kind like you had to dress up.  Rob:I once threw a whiteboard marker at my boss and got a promotion.  John:That’s how you do it, we’re going to do a podcast on that sometime I think.  Rob:Maintain eye contact, pure alpha status.  John:You’re a lion. Alright, you had a job, you did all that and then somehow now, you’re in Thailand.  Rob:Well, yeah look, currently I’m in Thailand. For the record,  I don’t live in Thailand. I’m traveling around for a little bit at the moment, it’s one of the benefits that come from consulting, but to get here was a little hard work, a little sweat and tears, I’m not going to lie. I think that’s something that’s work out quite well. I basically left my job …  John:It’s hard work?  Rob:You got to do the work, you got to sweat, you know, you don’t grow a muscle by sitting in the gym, on the floor taking selfies.  John:What were some of the things that sucked about the journey?  Rob:You know what; It sucked until I accepted the hard work. It sucked until I accepted that life is easy when you live it the hard way and hard when you live it the easy way. That’s Kekich credo, right?  John:Right.  Rob:But it wasn’t until I accepted that, and just committed to grinding, for want of a better term. Stop trying to be perfect, stop trying to be that, ‘Oh, so super and special’,  I just got out there and made shit happen.  John:Okay.  Rob:That’s when everything got easier. Up into that stage it was grand, because I had all these ego brain problems going on, oh you’re special, you’re smart, you should be able to do this, why haven’t you’ve done this. John:I’m looking for the magic trick this is going to unlock the game.  John:Yeah.  Rob:There’s no silver bullet, the silver bullet is hard work.  John:Right. Rob:Hard work in the right direction.  John:It’s kind like they talk about the overnight success. Where’s there like five years in the making.  Rob:Yeah, it’s often times how it works.  John:Usually when you hear about someone, who’s that is sixteen years old and a millionaire, there’s always a back story.  Rob:They’re an outlier, and they’re an outlier.  John:Yeah. Rob:Everyone who is going to listen to this or the majority of people, who listen to this, probably read the “Four Hour Work Week”.  Forget it, everyone who reads the Four Hour Work Week … John:What was your Facebook update status one time?  Rob:It making you look like you worked a four hour work week is a fulltime job. It’s something that Glen [Inaudible 00:11:28] up and run with and a couple of us locals spoke about, you’ve got two groups of people right?  There’s a four hour work week, which everyone, wants to have. You’ve got first group who read the book, ignored all the shit about doing hard work and then focused on living in Thailand and taking selfies and drinking coconuts and pretending they’re successful.  Then you got another group of people, who go well, the concept of the Four Hour Work Week is work as much as you need to, but only work on things you enjoy, doing things that you enjoy, and be able to take time off.  John:The Four Hour Work Week was a result of a split test on a group, like that title was a split test on Google Outlet, that’s the only reason it’s called the Four Hour Work Week.  Rob:It was originally, at the seminar that they use to give at the University, was Drug Dealing for Final Profit. That was a title, that was slapped back by the publisher and that’s why they did the ad words.  John:Maybe you could be a drug dealer for fun on profit, but maybe you would be working tens a hour a week or twenty hours a week or forty hours a week.  Yeah, right, but one thing that I’ve realized is doing this, as soon as you realized that it’s not about the Four Hour Work Week, and that’s the story, that’s the dream and that’s the marketing thing.  Really what we’re all doing out here, is just business, and business been done for centuries, basically you’re solving someone’s problem and they’re paying you money to solve it because you’re going to save them time or money or effort.  Rob:You add value.  John:You’re going to add value, and that’s all we’re doing. This is … I talked to my grandparents back on Christmas Time the other day, they’re kind like, are you getting by, how’s the internet thing going? Are you making a enough to pay the rent, and well there’s nothing new that we’re doing over here, its business.  All the internet does it just means I can be in Thailand and I can work with Joe Smith in Sidney, who’s got a plumbing business and needs more leads, customers, whatever.  We can just channel on Skype, instead of doing a phone call or a meeting at our local coffee shop, we just jump on Skype. That’s what the internet does; it enables business at long distances.  Rob:It’s a tool of efficiency. Tim Gordon wrote on this years ago, if you search Setco, and Make Money Online, we show we can [Inaudible 00:13:19], but that’s what it is, you understand the internet is a tool of efficiency. It’s not a magic bullet, it’s not going to save you from your day job, it’s not going to make life magic that you hit a green button, and you become [Inaudible 00:13:26] and make thousands of dollars on auto pilot.  John:Yeah.  Rob:What it is, you have to put in the hard work first, because it’s a new behavior you have to commit to it, right? That’s where my story started. You’ve heard it a million times, but ultimately I started by sitting at the kitchen table, literally, the classic cliché, I’d wake up real early at 5:00 in the morning, kind of thing.  John:Yeah.  Rob:Get a yellow legal pad, a note pad, and write a question at the top, “How can I add “X” dollars in value to people and receive “X” dollars in return, and “Y” dollars in return, today?” I would write a list of twenty-five or thirty things and I would grind, grind and grind and get it all out there. Develop the behavior. John:Yeah.  Rob:Then it was about [Inaudible 00:14:00] and use to reach out to people and add value to them first. Showed the, “Hey, here’s how you can improve your site. This is how you can make your site faster. How you can make more money from it. How you can get more leads to yoga studio, your personal training studio, whatever, and hey, I’ve got this other thing but you should call me if you want to find out what it is,” and then I get people on the phone.  I would talk to them about their problems, and my background was web designer, I had worked in digital production and media, I’m not going to lie, I had an advantage, I have done this before.  I could just take it and turn it into a sale, do a proposal and make them some money. That’s was it, that’s how got started was the kitchen table and being prepared to do and people talk about sixteen hour days, but really I’m talking like sixteen hour days, man. Food was made while working, eating while working. That’s it.  John:I would like to say that consulting does have to be hard, it’s really you figure out a problem that you can solve and then you figure out ways you can solve it, really. Whether it’s autoresponder or marketing funnels, or any sort of consultant, marketing consultant or not, it’s really simple like it’s just people have problems that have a need solving.  You’re just going to be that guy, the challenge that most people have is, well how do you get started, how do you find these people. It started with you; it’s just kind like well, its start think first, start getting your brain on the right track. Which what problems [crosstalk 00:15:10].  Rob:How can you add value?  John:The next thing is to establish trust with someone who has a problem that you might be able to add value to.  Rob:Yelp.  John:Then once you got trust establish and you’ve got a relationship and you can have coffee at Skype or whatever it is, sooner or later there is going to be an opportunity for some sort of exchange or transaction. It’s going to be like, you pay me $1,000 and I will do “X”,  Rob:I’ll deliver on this. You’ll save time, you’ll make money. Talk about value, not technical stuff. John:Yeah.  Rob:Here’s a very important thing, right, you and I are talking about a really straight forward methodology, right. The reason I don’t about you, it took me so long to get real traction, was I didn’t have a methodology that matched me. John:Right. Rob:That was something I had to develop and get use to and in the same way, so did you. You had to develop your own methodology for what you were doing when you first started.  John:That’s a funny thing here, second to that then. I was in the Philippines and well, did you just set out to be the Autoresponder Guy, and the answer was no, completely not. I’ve been to the Philippines I tried a few ideas I got myself band from AD Words, and a couple of different things like that.  Things weren’t going well, funny thing, I had less than $500 in my bank account, things were getting pretty tight, I was thinking maybe, I was going to have to go home. Buy a ticket on my credit card and I only had a one way ticket to come there. I thought I was going to have to buy a ticket and go home and get a job.  It did work out anyway, I started doing copywriting, that wasn’t even … I didn’t even start learning copywriting to become a consultant, that was never the intention. I just wanted to learn copy. One, I was fascinated with it, and two, I had a website which was sort of selling … I was selling this EBook, just not very many of them, it was it made like a $1,000. in three months. Not really a big deal with the EBook.  That’s what made me get into copywriting and I think it was around June in 2012 the first invoice, I sent was to Dan Andrews because he was in … Rob:TropicalMBA.com.  John:That’s right, he was in Porta Bel Air in the Phillipines at the time, for bit of a like a TropicalMBA classes, like  one of these seminar conference things, and he saw me  kind of writing down sales by hand on my little legal pad, it wasn’t yellow.  We go through this, he saw, he’s like what are doing, I told him I’m copywriting. Then that lead to Autoresponder. I can’t remember why, or how we got onto email, he just said, he would love to have a good email sequence on his site. I’d never done it before; I never had done it for any client. I kind of had a rough idea based on what I’d done for myself and I’d been to Andre Chaperon’s course, Autoresponder’s Madness.  Rob:Yeah.  John:I did the Autoresponders, he paid me $200 via Paypal, I spent two full days and work on it all day. Did the same thing the day after and gave him ten emails for $200 dollars and then he was really happy with it and I think it was a week later, at the end of the seminar, he asked around and gave him [Inaudible 00:17:35], would you pay for this.  Would you pay for this Autoresponder, and a whole bunch of people were like yeah and then he was like, how much would you pay? Some people were like $500, one guy even said like $1500. I said, “There is no way.” I was surprised enough when Dan said, he would pay, $200 just for emails.  Then it, just grew from there, I fell into this Autoresponder thing and the same kind of thing, I was kind of in the Philippines and I was surrounded by guys like Dan Andrews, who were business owners, who had websites, who had problems. That was an advantage, but that was something anyone can create, go to seminars, conferences, all that.  Rob:Connect with people, who have problems.  John:Right. Rob:Everybody. John:People hear that you have a skill, like copywriting, whatever it happens to be like website design, or logo design, they going to be like,  I’ve been looking for a guy to do that, because most business owners have so many things that they want to do, but they haven’t got around to it, because they’re busy and they’re lazy too. When they hear that you can do something, especially if you’re just getting started, they’ll give you a shot.  Rob:Yeah.  John:That’s really how you get started isn’t it, you build from there, then you kind of need a bit of different skill set to grow that, but that’s where it starts.  Rob:Yeah, one thing I really want to address right now, when we spoke about hard work and luck and  all this things involved; but ultimately, if somebody wants to become a consultant right, there’s a couple of prerequisites; One, you have a skill set which will solve somebodies problem. If you don’t have that skill set, you can’t be a consultant. You might be a sales guy, and you can sell somebody else’s services and white label them, but you can’t … John:That’s still a skill set.  Roby:That’s a skill set, that’s true, but you’re not the consultant, so to speak. You’re just a sales guy, but you got a skill right, maybe you get really good at copywriting, get really good at funnels like John is, maybe you get good at SEO’s, whatever it is. You come in, and you managed to get good at a specific skill that solves a specific problem.  Then you find people, who have that problem, and then you emailed them, and add value, and you call them and add value, or you meet them and add value. Then you segway, “Hey look I’ve got some other cool stuff, you might be interested in. let’s talk about it.”  That’s it, that’s the silver bullet, get a skill, see the problem that it solves, and reach out to people who have those problems, add value, and make money. That’s it. I think it kind of brings up a point as well, is the difference between you and I, and our approaches.  I’ve known John what, for two years. John:Yeah, around two years.  Rob:Yeah. We got along pretty well from the start and the longer we spent together, the more different we realized we are in certain aspects, in particular our approached.  John:Same, same, but different.  Rob:Very same, same, but different and the way we kind of discuss this is, John is essentially the hammer. Right, like you want something to happen. You want someone to go hulk mode and beat through the wall, that’s John, John will just beat down every brick in the damn wall, where I on the other hand, would like to take a couple of minutes and try to find out which of the three bricks are the weakest and just focus my energy on those.  For me that came my I got ADHD, my background was ADHD mentoring, it was really about understanding about focus and teaching other people to do the same stuff. I would be a hypocrite, if I didn’t.  You on the other hand love the hulk strategy.  John:I just love that quote man, it was from Mark Zuckerberg, move fast and break stuff. I like move fast and break shit. It just sounds better, it’s more aggressive.  It something I want to just want to qualify here, it’s not just go out and just break stuff. You don’t just go out beat this hammer, and beat the crap out this all. There’s still an element of this, try to identify the three bricks, whereas, you might get a small chisel and a hammer, and chip away like a bit of a sculptor.  You do a very neat job, very precise job on those bricks. I would rather find those, I guess, I still would want to identify what my outcome is, which is identify a couple of those bricks, then get a freakin rocket launcher and fire that rocket launcher, at those three bricks.  I still know the outcome, I just want to hit that thing as hard as I can and I’m going to make a few mistakes, stuff is going to break. I’m going to do the wrong thing from time to time.  I know if I just keep executing, on that strategy, and I’ve noticed that’s generally what works with my personality as well, is that my skill is usually forgetting about what can go wrong, and just moving forward in spite of kind of the questions.  Rob:That’s it. Yeah, like that move fast and break stuff, is such a good response, in terms of, if you’re scared of doing something right, like definitely going to be a stage in my life, where that’s how I operated, because I was being held by this fear of failure, where god what if I say the wrong thing, what if I swear on the podcast, what if I insult someone and then you just have to go, you know what I’m going to move fast, I’m going to break something’s, I’m going to except that there is collateral damage.  What I found the longer I did it for, was my personality after I kind of conquered that fear sort of things,  I was more attracted to being specific, being choosey, and being very much about, alright, so you have these customers, let me have a look at these customers.  Who’s most popular gender, what’s the most profitable marital status, what’s the most profitable occupation, what’s the most profitable common identifier, across all these groups.  When we send the sales campaign, I said to John before, I feel like when you send out a sales campaign you get a 5% overrate, that 95% wasted email. I much rather meet the right market, at the right time, with the right message and offer them a really good product at their offering, right off the bat. As oppose to rocket launching. I think because for me, that works well for my personality.  Because I get this shit when I add myself to an email list and it’s almost like, yeah man, let me send you some really cool by the way, if you hit reply, I’m not going to respond, because I’m a dick.  If you got an autoresponder, if you got an email list, you need to accept that you’re giving me you’re email I’m letting you into my Inbox. If you ignore me when I reply, you’re out of here and I ain’t going to spend a dollar on you.  John:That’s stuff, … that’s where the difference is, it’s good to talk about this, because some people are going to think, it’s like one’s better than the other,  I use to think that’s the case.  That the way I was doing it, it was better than everyone else did it. Now I’m like no, it’s not, it just what works for me right now, at this point and time. But in this case, of this email, you might want to analyses the psychographics was the words, you used.  Rob:Yeah, Psychographics and Social Graphics.  John:I would be… it’s important that I get it, and I know why you do it, and why people do that stuff. But to me it’s, to get too analytical, to go too deep on that stuff, bores me to tears. I’d rather be like, what’s the goal here? What’s the minimum I can do, to get the maximum result, and then just fire away?  Rather than spend too much time analyzing and thinking about it, I’m really trying to perfect that approach, just ready, fire, aim. That’s total me.  That’s not that’s better, you’re strategy would be more like a ready, aim, fire.  Rob:I would like to know more of a strategist overview of the landscape, before I choose where to fire.  John:Right.  Rob:That’s it. I guess I’m like ready aim and fire, don’t get me wrong, a lot of people perceive this as being really a polar opposite kind of thing, you really have to move fast and break a lot of stuff.  It’s like, hey look at me, I’m going to break a lot of stuff, and I’m going to call 16,000 people a day in cold calls or I’m going to call one person, and nobody else and I’m going to wait until I pick that perfect one person.  Reality is, John and I have both found what works well for us. We’ve found, where our natural skill set lies and our natural mood [Inaudible 00:23:54], and we’ve accepted what our ways are.  Like for me, I like to build up a little bit more dialog before I take action, so I can go into it with total boldness. Whereas John will go with the boldness from the get go. That doesn’t work for me and that’s fine. Just shows we have different approaches, to how we approach.  John:It’s almost like; there is a little bit two sides of the same coin, like if we’re playing a video game you know how you have points for agility, points for wisdom, and magic and all that kind of crap.  In this case you might have there’s two attributes here, which you have move fast and break shit. Then the other attribute might be prepare, or aim something like that.  Rob:Preps something really good example man, because I use really struggle with preparing and that’s probably why I really double down on it, it’s my biggest weakness. Once I plugged that hole, because I use to always wing it, I still wing it.  But when I double down on my preparation, that’s where I see huge returns. That’s when I moved from doing cheap websites and cheap jobs, to charging minimum low five figures.  John:Right.  Rob:Because I was able to sit here and talk to some guy and say, “Hey man, that’s really cool, you might say I’ve ready research your company, you, your people, your company, people you work with, past  results, seen the capital you’ve had, the institutional capital you’ve had, all your existing product offerings.”  When I sit there, it sounds like I’m going off the guild, because I am, but I’ve got all that extra prep, in the back of my head and that gave me more confidence in sitting down and talking to people about where they’re at, and the problems they’ve got.  John:There’s an element here where you’re absolutely correct and you need both, it’s kind like you need to be out preparing to identify what needs to  happen and then have some background information, but when it’s time to act, you need to come down, this is always mine, come down like an atomic bomb.  Rob:Yes, you got to do it, you just got to commit.  John:Yeah, kind of get called out, if all your doing is going out there an breaking stuff,  you’re not going to get anywhere, just piss people off, and you’re just going to make a mess, but if all you do is prepare, you’re never actually going to do anything. You’re just going to just prepare, prepare, prepare and never get the results. You’re going to be the talker.  Rob:I think this is a really a good point, as where you’re a hammer, I’m a scalpel, ultimately both of these things are calls of action. We go a different psychological path essentially, to reach the same outcome.  Similar enough outcome, maybe the way that we get there is a little different, but the outcome is within the percentile difference, If you’re sitting at home and you’re listening to the podcast, whether if you’re on the train or on the way to work or whether you at home, or your business, or you wanting to become a consultant.  The first thing to understand, as we discussed, that there is a basic pathway and you’re way of traveling that pathway, and reaching that outcome might be different, but that’s find.  As long as you travel the pathway, as long as you take action, get up and do shit take action, provide value, and solve problems.  John:It’s kind like, a lot of people look for this map, and people look at internet marketing products and make money online and all this stuff, as though there’s one right way, there’s one right path. There is not.  There’s about a billion roads, pulling an infinite amount of roads, to get to where ever you want to get. There’s all those roads, that you’ve already walked. There’s ones, no one else has ever walked, and no one else even knows those other roads exist. It’s kind like a cool day, when you realized that you don’t have to follow only roads that are already out there, you can actually go out there.  This is when you get the best results. When you start, like have a rough idea about where you want to go, and how you are going to get there, but at the end of the day, you’re going to blaze your own trail. That doesn’t mean doing something wildly different; it just means that, realizing that you don’t have to do the same thing everyone else does.  You can, kind of figure out what works for you, in the context of what your ultimately outcome is.  Rob:It’s like riding motorbikes. John and I would catch up, we would ride motor bikes together, something we enjoy doing.  John:Sunday, we’re going Sunday, right.  Rob:Yeah, I’m going to go on Sunday. What you would find is if you ever ride with John and I, what you would find is, we’ll both reach the same destination, we’ll both travel the same road, but we’ll take variations on that road. John might take the right lane; I might take the left lane. Maybe John will speed up, maybe I won’t. Whatever it is, we’ll both end up at the same outcome, at roughly the same time and yet there will always be a bit of  similar path taken, but we’ll still do things in our own style and accepting that there is a lot of room to breathe, you don’t have to be anally perfect.  That kind of brings to like, what I reckon is one of the most important things to understand. We spoke about this on the last podcast that we did together, which was about where your focus is.  About what is the strategic outcome that you want and what are the steps you need to take to get there? More importantly what are the things that are relevant?  The course that I have, is to help people who want to become a consultant.  John:Okay.  Rob:Take action steps, to become consultant over the course of thirty six days. All right, we talk about everything from, who are the target markets that you can help. Here’s where to find them. The methodology that I talk about, which is using Google and he’s had to approach them, and he’s had to write emails, he’s had to get them on the phone, his had to talk to them on the phone, had to get a proposal to them, he’s had to close the sale and he’s had to deliver the work, and he’s had to keep the cash coming in, right.  It’s been really successful for the people who just go, alright this is the methodology and I’m going to follow this, I’m going to put my spin on it, I’m going to take the steps and this is like following the road, but choosing your own lane.  One of the things I’m a big proponent for, everyone doing this course, still ask me is, do I need a website, do I need a Facebook page, do I need a Twitter account, do I need a Pinterest account, do I need a LinkedIn page, the answer is no, no, no, no, and no. You don’t need this stuff, right. John:But you need to be a hammer or a scalpel.  Rob:You do, you do.  John:You need to do something; you need like to start swinging.  Rob:You need to start swinging, [Crosstalk 00:28:40] John:A baseball bat, you got to swing.  Rob:Pick your weapon, but what you then do, is you swing. Don’t worry about, “Oh, do I got like 16,000 samurai swords,” you go alright, pick one, and I’m just going to use this sword and hack away at it.  It’s bit of a metaphor, but ultimately, here’s a case, if you are like wanting to become a consultant, or you’ve got dreams of it or if you’re just starting and you’re finding that you spend an hour a day, two hours a day, three hours a day,  doing something like Facebook and Twitter and Pinterest, and you’re not getting  in front of people who have your problem and adding value to them, and then offering to solve your problem for money, your focus is off.  Just a cold hard fact, if you are not doing anything that is not getting you in front of people, who will need your services, you’re wasting your time. Now, it doesn’t mean you have to do it twelve hours a day. But I guarantee you, if you do that for four hours a day, you’ll see huge gains. Mixing yourself with those people right.  John:I like this … with the McIntyre Method and McMasters, I talk about … you got this whole way Thomas Day marketing, you got … this [Inaudible 00:29:31] big canyon, there’s a crazy wild river and Northern Canadian wilderness, there’s this river rapids running through the bottom of the valley, and this canyon just goes might be a hundred, two hundred, three hundred feet, meters, just a really, really big cliff.  Rob:A really deep canyon.  John:Then, on the one side on the top of that canyon, you got a stick figure, because I draw in stick figure, when I draw.  Rob:Their beautiful stick figures.  John:They are, I like beautiful stick figures. You got like a stick figure going on the left, of this canyon on the top, and he’s your prospect, right. He’s Joe Smith, in this case, for consulting, he’s got some sort of business, whatever your target prospect is.  Rob:He runs a plumbing company.  John:He runs a plumbing company.  Rob:Joe Smiths plumbing [Inaudible 00:30:05].  John:On the right side of that canyon, you’ve got the product, which is going to be a website or  order or a sales funnel, anything.  Rob:I think it’s similar, but it’s an outcome.       John:An outcome. Rob:An outcome.  John:He wants more leads, okay.  Rob:Let’s do that. John:Then what the marketing needs to do, is whether your using an autoresponder or cold calling, or banner ads or classified ads in your newspaper, or walking into like sales calls, walking in to business, whatever that is, the marketing strategy basing it upon that bridge, from one side of that canyon to the other.  Your prospect is, Joe Smith, is  going to be able to walk across that bridge in beautiful stick figure fashion, do you see the walking stick figure?  Rob:Beautiful.  John:He walks across and then he walks into … he is going to be fine, he picks up this outcome, which is more leads, more sales, whatever it happens to be and you’ve connected him. Your marketing is connecting your prospect  with your product, bamb.  That’s a simple thing. All they got to do is identify who is that prospect, what are they are selling them, what outcome they are selling  Rob:What outcome does the prospect desire? John:Then everything after that, all the hammer swing, the scalpel swing, whatever it happens to be, is all about connecting the prospect with the product. That’s it, everything else can be thrown out. Doesn’t wear like a Facebook page, how much effect is that really going to have on connecting your prospect with your profit?  Not much. If you add a Facebook advertising campaign to your page, and your page to a phone number on there, and a call to action. That’s a little bit different. That’s pretty optimized.  Rob:This is a really important point actually, again you cracking out the good point today, John. John:Cracking them out.  Roby:You’re cracking them out John:Cracker Jack. Rob:For those people, who listen to Johns Podcast, want to be a copywriter, right. Here is a caveat, right. You will pick a skill set, you need to understand that your skill set cannot solve every problem, if somebody needs more leads, then maybe a SEO will help.  At the same time, if somebody needs more leads and they are private high in the referral boutique and SEO is probably not what they’re after. I’m saying, that  if you only have one skill set and one knowledge and you don’t have a network at all, you’re going to start approaching every problem, in the same way.  When we were talking about the canyon, the person on one side, the bridge, and like the outcome they want, it’s really important to understand what the prospects outcome is and if you cannot solve it with your skill set, don’t try to force your skill set in.  Don’t try to convince him of something, just go ahead call him and say, “Sorry I don’t think I can help you.” Then go back a focus on the people who want the outcome that you can offer, under your perimeters, of your skill set. Don’t try and … I get emails all the time from people who are copywriters and say I just want to be a copywriter. No, no, no, you want to be someone who solves problems, by using the medium of text. You solve problems, it’s not about you being a copywriter, and it’s about solving the problems of your prospect.  John:Right.  Rob:If copy is the best way to do that, use copy. Copy is invariable by the way,  is a phenomenal  skill set  to have because it teaches you to think more persuasively, more influentially, it helps you  communicate with much greater clarity, but if you think everything is about solving something with better copywriting you are wrong. Sometimes its literal a case of going, ‘Hey, you got a business, you got a great range of prospects, who connected to a current client base, had to go to a referral system.’  Here’s how we can use copy to solve that. Not, let me do some copywriting for you because I want to make you lots of money. That’s probably the difference is [Crosstalk 00:32:54]… John:It’s not about a copy; it’s never about the product.  Rob:It’s never about the tool.  John:An example of this, a recent one, that I obviously we’ve  been doing email, sort of writing emails [Inaudible 00:33:04] getting them out and writing them as well and I guess a recent realization is, I’m a little bit embarrassed to say, is that people don’t really want email, they obviously don’t want emails. Emails are like a commodity, like you’re buying a pack of soap. What they really want is a clean body and in this case; in the case of emails, they want more sales. What a better product would be, not just emails, because emails don’t do that much, what someone wants is a full service where they get a squeeze page, an email sales, like a email sequence, a sales page, tracking so they know where all the sales are coming from, and ideally split testing, if they had a enough traffic for it.  That’s a much, much better, much better, and much higher price solution as well.  Rob:Something that you can really stand out with, as well.  John:Yeah, but it’s all the same stuff.   I don’t need to learn anything new to do that, it’s just kind of packaging it and adding a few tweets, like adding the tracking in and it becomes a whole new thing.  Rob:It does. Let’s take this alright, let’s talk about, legitimately getting started with consulting, we’ve spoken about how, I started out after leaving my job, I ground on my kitchen table if you will, writing notes by hand, making calls, sending emails, and developed  the methodology that worked for me and that’s what I knew. You talked about having fills, you were there, you connected with Dan Andrews from Tropical MBA, got into enough orders upon entry, and both of us gained traction in our own ways and now we have sort of an approach that we follow, right. For example you have your leads generation methodologies, my very much referral base, and introduction base, we charge different price points. We service different markets.  What’s really important, I guess is, if someone is listening to this, is how do they get started in consulting. Now we mentioned your first full figured client and if that’s something you’re interested in, we’ll come back in a second.  But ultimately, here’s what I would say, like if I was sitting across from you right now, and you said to me Rob, how do I become a consultant, how do I get started with it.  I would really hash these points.  One, have a skill set that solves problems.  Two, figure out who has those problems and knows that they have those problems.  John:Okay.  Rob:Get in front of them.  John:Yes.  Rob:Figure out wherever they are, and then get in front of them. Maybe that is going to be by sending cold emails, cold phone calls. I understand, in some markets like the Danish market, it’s illegal to send a cold email, you cannot do it. Maybe you have to go meet them. Maybe you have to organize an event, where you get them altogether in front of you, free presentations, whatever it is. Get in front of those people.  Then commit to taking action every single day. You know the problem that they need solved. You know the outcome that they desire, you know the way to bridge the gap and you talked about that [Inaudible 00:35:04]. John:Yeah.  Rob:Then you do it every day. I tell you become a consultant, this is the magic bullet, just do something every single day.  John:I like that.  Rob:Would that be your advice?  John:Absolutely, absolutely,  for one thing I know a lot of people like is and I’ve noticed with the McIntyre method and people are wondering right now, you mentioned your course a second ago, it’s like a thirty … thirty-five day thing.  Rob:Thirty-six.  John:There’s an auto responder to get an email every day, to do this right?  Rob:I don’t call it an auto responder, mainly because what it is, this is a huge journey, this idea of becoming a consultant … what is a consultant? Now I know when I first started, I typed into to Google to find consultant.  John:Yeah.  Rob:Figuring out all these elements. Ultimately as a consultant, your job is to improve the client’s condition, right? Instead of it being a thirty-six day autoresponder, it gives you a daily action task, for thirty-six days.  John:Okay.  Rob:I tell you, ‘Hey, John, today this is what you’re doing.’  John:So, you can build momentum there.  Rob:Build momentum.  John:By the end of the thirty-six days, what will I have, if I did it?  Rob:If you follow the instructions, right, and if you go all the way through the course and by the way throughout the course, I tell people email me, that’s the main reason I … John:You reply to emails.  Rob:I reply to every email and this is the main reason I’m bumping up the prices, because quite frankly, I can’t reply to all the emails without losing part of my day now. It’s a case of, if you speak with me, right, I’ll help you out, I have a couple of clients who are going through, that I’ve coached as well.  It’s a case is if you follow it, you will get results. The average report return on investment is over 7,000%.  John:You mentioned one guy, I can’t remember what his name was, who went through the course and I was blown away, I was like man that is so cool, he went through and he just applied everything and then he made … he picked up like a whole bunch of clients, like 10 grand, something like that?  Rob:Plenty yeah. There were a couple of different markets. This is the other side of this consulting thing, it’s the same principal at a base level, in the last three weeks, I’m spoken to a guy who works at New York, he is one of my favorite, favorite clients man, this guy is amazing.  I’m not going to give you his name, not because of his privacy, but he’s a normal individual, if he’s hearing it, he knows who he is, I love chatting with him, his [Inaudible 00:36:47].  More importantly he took this to a market and I remember the first time I got an email off him, during the course was after less than a week or just over a week, it’s like sorry man, I just got to stop taking the course for a bit, because I’m already getting more clients, awesome.  Then I had another guy go through it, who was in a completely different market and again I speak to him quit regularly and he went into a very different direction and he was a bit shaky at first, but he stuck with it, he followed the process. He didn’t try and make it magical. That’s where most people come off, and he got some results.  This is the client that things happen over and over again. These guys who kind of follow that process, look we just laid that process out man, like it’s your recipe … John:Like you’re baking a cake, if you use a recipe and follow it, you get a cake.  Rob:Yeah. You’ll get 80% similar results and this is the thing, we’ve already told you exactly what you need to do, on this podcast if you want to become a consultant.  You can take this podcast, you could transcribe it by hand and you can become a consultant. Your first work for your client is about teaching you what to do alone. I mean there is some cool stuff, there is some tablets and proposals and all that stuff but it’s about saying, “Hey like you know, you’re interesting if you want to become a consultant, you realize it’s a big journey and realistically you want some accountability and a bit of hand holding. You want a step by step system to follow that’s work for other people.” John:Yeah.  Rob:That’s where that comes in. It’s not so much like, hey go do this stuff and now you’re on your own, it’s like, at the end of thirty-six days even if you  haven’t acquired a first four figured client, you’ll have sales tool, you’ll have proposals, things that are based on behavioral phycology  and behavioral economics. I don’t know if you remember it, the article I wrote for your [stressor 00:38:05] site, was on a book called “Predictably Irrational”, by Dan Ariely.  Phenomenal book, and I took the concepts from that book for behavioral economics and used that to create proposals, then my closing rate just went through the roof, when I first got started. I copied that, okay.  Then one of the guys took that, and made that his own, and he’s made tens of thousands of dollars off the back of it. It’s pretty cool man.  John:That is pretty cool.  Rob: If you want to become a consultant listen to this episode again, follow the steps.  John:But if they want to get this, the name of his course is called “Your First Four Figured Client “, obviously what you people get is ..  Rob:Your, First Four Figure Client, First Four Figure Client, its bit of a tongue twister, your First Four Figure Client.  John:Because you want to say is anyway, where can I go check this out if I want to. Should I make a redirect link on my … Rob:Yeah, we’re going to have a special link [Inaudible 00:38:49] John:Themcmethod.com/four. That’s easy.  Rob:The number 4.  John:Yeah the number 4. Themcmethod.com/4, and that will go to  Rob:A special back end, so that’s actually something this really worth noting, right. Like I mentioned before,  John:Because you closed it right?  Rob:I did, I put it on a waiting list because of the volume of people coming through and at the moment there is a waiting list, so I can handle as people come through, I can answer them without sacrificing my own consulting work, in my own business’s, I can still give them the attention they need.  Pretend it’s like a backend door, honestly if a heap of people who listen to this podcast, I know you got a list of downloads, I will send it off,  because I want to make sure that … no like legitimately this sounds like false quessing and all that crap. The reality it’s not in my best interest to give people a subpar experience.  It’s not in my best interest to say, hey, thanks for the money; see you later, because I want you to be really successful. If you’re listening to this, you want to become a consultant. Cool, come check it out man. Come look at what we got, I’ll break it down for you, if you got questions, I’ll answer them, because it’s in my best interest to help you make a lot more money, because ultimately I have other trainers that I work with other consultants on, to help them add reoccurring clients to their business and get that reoccurring revenue coming through that retainer tops off.  I want to make you money, if I didn’t give you a really good experience and help you get through there; you’re never going to get to that stage. I would shoot myself in the foot. That’s the other reason why this is not a $1600 course like other ones.  This is right off here, this is the cost,  it’s less than $200 bucks, you can get started, and the average point of return for investment is over 7,000% , if this works for you also, make a 1,000, you say hey, I’ll give you a refund.  John:Easy, pesy, Japanese.  Rob:That’s a bit different.  John:We’ll add the link to that. You can go to, themcmethod.com/4 that’s a number four or you can go to themcmethod.com find this podcast post and there will be a link in that podcast post to that link, which will take you to the backdoor the special secret door an entry to your First Four Figure Client, Rob thanks for coming on the show again.  Rob:You’re welcome. If you guys have any questions right, throw me a tweet @robhanly. John:Rob Hanly.  Rob:Yeah, no “e” in Hanly, that’s like the thing I got to underscore, no “E” in Hanly, but if you got a question on the [Inaudible 00:40:38], you wanted to know if this is going to be right for you, if you think that your situation is different, sure, shoot me a tweet, we can have a [Inaudible 00:40:42] or something.  John:You also have a website, robhanly.com.  Rob:I do, I do have a website.  John:You do an occasional post on … some interesting stuff actually, not always consulting or marketing it’s often.  Rob:Very rarely.  John:Just cool stuff, I’ll just let them go check that out, just cool stuff, we’ll just say that.  Rob:Cool, then well I’ll tell you right now, seeing that, a post which I think that every entrepreneur should read, because it deals with that podcast … I’m sorry that roller coaster, that up and own process of being an entrepreneur that reality of it, it kind of  breaks it down, gives you a framework to follow how to deal with it.  John:That’s good, it will be a great place to start. Rob:It will help you deal with the emotional side.  John:Yeah, cool man, well we will wrap it up here, will get to go to the gym, go grind some iron, go pump some iron, that’s the word and yeah, I mean  Rob:It’s like Bob, Bob the guy who had the son pumping iron.  John:Pumping iron on youtube, maybe we can get a link to that on the show as well, there’s a youtube video this guy pumping iron that our friend always recommends. If you’re going to go to the gym, you want to listen to this song, it’s going to get you pumped up Rob:Two bongs, and it’s recommended  John:Two bongs, go check that out. Alright we’re wrapping up here, we’re rambling here, so  Rob:Thank you very much for listening to us talk about consulting remember in this show we’ve given you the path, right. Now there is variations of the path, you’ll find your own.  John:It’s up to you to walk the path.  Rob:No one can walk it for you.  John:I need for you right now, so any way let’s wrap it up here, thanks for coming on man.    The post Episode #60 – Rob Hanly on How to Become a Marketing Consultant Using a Simple 3-Step Formula appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


3 Jun 2014

Rank #15

Podcast cover

Episode #61- Frank Visciano on The 5 Pillars to Building a Course That Sells.

Think you got what it takes to monetize your expertise? Frank Visciano thinks you do. And he’s here today to show you EXACTLY how to do it… …through Udemy’s online education marketplace. Frank is Udemy’s Director of Content. ALL courses run by his desk first. He’s pretty much THE man, and he’s here to guide you into Udemy gold. Listen as he explains his 5 pillars to building a course that sells. FIRST… you have the planning stage.   Be. Super. Specific.  Know yourself, know your audience and… NICHE DOWN. Udemy is primarily video-based.  As good as your content is, you need a product that’s easy on the eyes and ears. Production is the SECOND pillar. And it doesn’t take much… Got an iPhone and a cheap lav mic?  You’re set. Make it crisp. THIRD?  Polish it up. Set up a Udemy Sales Page that… SELLS. This is where people decide whether to take your course or not. Having a polished landing page is VITAL. Udemy courses are dynamic… …they evolve through the FOURTH pillar… the publishing stage. Iterate. Udemy’s handy dandy analytics (included) makes this all too easy. SEE what works.  Ditch what doesn’t.  But at the end of the day, to be successful on Udemy, you have to be more than just an instructor.   The FIFTH pillar is promotion. Be an ACTIVE MARKETER. Create momentum and gain success by being both an instructor AND a marketer. The opportunities are endless… as Frank says: “If you can dream it, you can teach it on Udemy.” Make it happen. In this episode, you’ll discover: how this episode’s information can be used outside of Udemy (learn the fundamentals to building any course) the direction in which Udemy is moving (30% of courses are made this way) how to avoid getting lost in the shuffle (these 2 things will make your course boring) the main ingredients to a kick-ass course description that converts how to use parables to talk about your product (what would Jesus do?) how 9,000 instructors teach 3,000,000 students spanning from over 190 countries wordwide (and how you too can be a part of this) the benefits from BOTH creating a paid course AND a free course. how to create well crafted entertaining emails within a B2B industry (don’t be afraid to be yourself) Mentioned: Dan Kennedy Udemy Studio Facebook Group Udemy Mobile Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Raw transcript: Download PDF transcript here. John:Hey, everybody. It’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder Guy. It’s time for Episode 61 of the email marketing podcast, the McMethod Email Marketing Podcast, where you’ll discover a whole bunch of stuff, really cool stuff, that’s going to … I hope you just make more money in your business. Today, it’s going to be the 5 Pillars of Building a Course That Sells with Frank Visciano from Udemy. Udemy is a website that allows anyone, young or old, experienced or new, or anyone, to create a course. They have some great software that they use. You can go and create an information product on your own, do an eBook, do a video course, things like that. That’s fine, but you can also do it on Udemy. They’ve got a ton of great features in this offering, including some analytics, which if you’re doing videos, will tell you which videos are performing well and which aren’t because you can look at the engagement on each video. It’s a really cool piece of software. I didn’t bring Frank on today to talk about Udemy specifically, though Udemy is obviously a big part of it. I brought him to talk about what sort of courses work really well because here’s the thing. Udemy has millions of customers, so Frank here, he manages the content. He’s the content director. He manages the supply side of the marketplace. This is all the courses that people are teaching. He sees all the courses that come through, and he has a great idea of what works and what doesn’t. That’s why I thought I’d get him on, we’d talk about the 5 Pillars of Building a Course That Sells, 5 things that you need to focus on whether you’re going to do this course on Udemy or another site like it, like CourseShare or your own website. However you’re going to do it, you need to focus on these 5 things. We’re going to talk about these. Very interesting stuff. The show notes for this episode of the email marketing podcast, go to the themcmethod.com/61. This Week’s McMaster’s Insight Of Week is this: Make the initial memory more vivid using mnemonics, emotions or drawings. Telling stories is a perfect way to do this. That’s from Michael Smith. Michael, how you’re doing well today. McMaster’s is a paid-membership community that I have. I’ll tell you a bit about that in a second. First, I want to explain this a little bit more. Michael posted a thread in the forum about … I think it was a scientific study on mnemonics and how the brain basically processes information, how you can leverage some of how the brain works in neuroscience to get better results with your marketing. The idea is let’s say I’m learning a language. I’ll use Thai as an example because I’m in Thailand. One of the characters doesn’t look anything like a chicken, but the representation with the letter is a chicken. When I look at this letter, then I think chicken, and then I think “Woah.” The letter’s got a bit of a beak, a bit of a pointy part, which could almost be a bird’s beak. In my mind, I look at that letter, and then I think “Chicken with a beak.” Then I look at this little pointing thing in the letter. What that’s creating is a bit of story, or a mnemonic as they’re called, a word picture in my head of what that is. Next time I see that letter, I’m going to think “Chicken”, and I’m going to be like “Oh, that’s what it means.” The equivalent of doing this with emails is telling stories. Instead of just saying “Empathy is important. One of the best things about marketing is you’ve got to have empathy.” It would be much better to tell a story about a time when I met someone for the first time. “We met at bar, as you always meet people, and they spent a whole bunch of time, just asking me questions, getting to know me. I was really surprised because most people just want to talk. Whereas this person just really got to know me, asked me lots of questions and really tried to understand where I was coming from, how I thought. It was really enjoyable. Then when they started sharing more about themselves after that, they shared it in the context. I was very obvious because I was a marketer, so I could see they were sharing what they felt and what they thought about the world in the context of what I’d just shared. I really felt that they had a lot of empathy for me, for what situation I’d been through. They really understood me. That’s a great example of how empathy is important. It makes me feel understood. It makes me feel loved. It makes me feel appreciated. That’s why empathy is important. That’s why you should buy the McIntyre Method because you’re going to get a template that allows you to go and fill in the blank template. Go and survey your people, your prospects. They fill it out, and you’re going to be able to get some great insight into who they are, what they do, and what they care about. You’re going to develop this empathy, and you’re going to make them feel understood and appreciated. Guess what? If they feel understood and appreciated, whose product are they going to buy?” What I did there is I told a story. This was just completely on the fly. This is not an email. It might be a bad example, but completely on the fly. That was the story. I let into a pitch for the McIntyre Method. Instead of saying … The classic thing is facts tell, stories sell. Instead of saying a fact, like empathy is good, tell a story about how empathy did something for me in my own life. Then link that to a pitch for the product, which is that you need empathy, but how do you do it? You need surveys. How do you do surveys? Use my survey template. Speakers, conference presenters do this all the time. Instead of just getting up there and running off a list of facts … The good ones anyway … They will get up there, and they will tell you a story, and then give you a punchline. Jesus did this. This is why religion … Religious leaders do this. They have an idea of something, such as you should care for each other. Then they’ll tell a story about the Good Samaritan and different things like that, parables. What you want to do is you want to use parables to talk about your product. Instead of telling people why your product is awesome, tell a story and then lead into. Use that as a parable for why your product is the best. This is a little bit hooky. It’s a bit hard to explain sometimes. You can actually learn about this in Stories That Sell, which is one of the products you get when you join McMasters. Quick note on McMasters. It’s a paid-membership community. You get the McIntyre Method, Stories that Sell, Pages That Convert. Basically a whole bunch of video training, which is going to help you learn how to write emails, learn how to tell stories in those emails, learn how to create landing pages and this kind of thing. It’s all organized in a very straightforward format. There’s also a forum, where you can ask questions. I’m in this forum every day. I reply to every thread, so you get direct access to me and access to the other members in there as well, who all have traffic, who all are trying to set up an order and just want to make more sales. Very simple. Would love to see you in there. Reviews. Reviews help spread the word. If you’re enjoying this or if you’re getting a lot out of it, and if you’ve got some good results in your business, I’d love to hear about them. The best place to let me know about those results and spread the word is to go to iTunes, search for the McMethod Email Marketing Podcast, leave me a review. Send me an email too to john@dropdeadcopy.com or john@themcmethod.com, and let me know that you’ve left the review. I’d love to hear from you and find out where you’re at, what’s going through your own life. We’ve got one list of questions, then we’ll get into this final interview with Frank Visciano. How do you weave a story into professional services B2B emails? This is a good question because B2B can be be a little bit … People think it’s a lot more serious. You can’t tell stories. You can’t be too flippant because you might come across as unprofessional, but the point about stories isn’t to be unprofessional or to seem like you’re casual and flippant. The point is that stories are just how we communicate as people. If you go to a business conference with a business speaker, if he’s a good speaker, he’s going to be using stories. He’s going to be telling stories about this and that and, like I said, the parable thing. He’s going to be telling parables and running into a punchline. Doing that over and over and over again. Can you do this with B2B emails without coming across as unprofessional? Of course. You can come across as professional. Basically, think about it. You’re not selling to businesses. You’re selling to people, whether it’s the CEO in that business or it’s someone in the marketing department or whatever department. You’re selling to people. What you really want to figure out is who are these people? What do they care about? What’s the sort of things running through their head? What stories could you tell them? Then you just write an email with a story. Still make it professional. Obviously you’ve got to write for the audience, but don’t be afraid to tell stories. Try it. Tell a story about an experience that maybe your person’s had over and over and over again. Maybe there’s so much competition in this industry that they are so sick of getting hounded by boring, drab emails about people’s [inaudible 00:07:39] spamming emails. You’re like “That’s why we don’t do that. We actually talk about stories.” You can tell a story about the stories. There’s a lot of different ways to do this. I’m going to take a little while to actually frame this up into a big thing, but the main thing I want you to get is that you can … Can you write stories for B2B? Yes. Can you do it without being unprofessional? Absolutely. Best thing, just give it a try. Worst case scenario is you make a few mistakes, then you try again and try again and try again. That’s it for now. Let’s get into this interview with Frank Visciano and talk about the 5 Pillars of Building a Course That Sells. It’s John McIntyre here, the Autoresponder Guy. I’m here here with Frank Visciano from Udemy. Frank is the director of content partnerships at Udemy. What he’s doing over there is he’s basically managing and taking care of the supply side of the marketplace. These are people who are are buying courses and selling courses. He’s working with all of them to make sure that there’s tons and tons of courses available, so that when you or I go to udemy.com looking for a course on paid traffic … I just started a course on Udemy on that last week … A course on anything … That the course is going to be there. That’s what he’s doing. What I want to do is bring him on today to talk about the 5 stages to building a course that sells. That’s a bit of hook there we’ve just put together right now. The idea is that because Frank has seen so many different courses, that are going through Udemy, he’s got a very good grasp of what works and what doesn’t. As a business owner or as a marketer or a freelancer, when you sit down and you want to create a course and information products, you can create some of that lifestyle, that automated income, there are some things that you should do and some things you really, really shouldn’t. That’s what we’re going to be talking about today: how to basically build an awesome kickass course. We’ll get into that in just a moment. Frank, how are you doing today, man? Frank:Good. Good to meet you, John.  John:Absolutely. Nice to meet you too, man. Good to have you on the show.  Frank:I’m very glad to be here and excited to talk about online courses and Udemy’s marketplace, some of my favorite things.  John:Cool. Before we do that, before we talk about that stuff, give the listener a bit of a background on who you are and what you’re doing over at Udemy and maybe a bit of a quick background too on what Udemy is as well.  Frank:Yeah, absolutely. The very quick version of Udemy is that we’re an online education marketplace. We focus primarily on on-demand video-based education content. Basically, online courses that anyone in the world, anywhere, can teach and anyone in the world, anywhere, can consume. We’ve got, at this point in time, about 9,000 instructors of all different types teaching 16,000 courses that range from digital marketing, as you mentioned, to office productivity to yoga. We’re even programming.  They’re teaching those courses to about 3 million students in 190 countries around the world, so a big diverse marketplace that’s growing very quickly. My particular role is to focus on the supply side. I work with instructors, whether they’re individuals or universities, digital publishers, NGOs, non-profits. You name it. Anyone who is an expert can teach on Udemy, and my job is to help make them very successful in doing so.  John:Nice one. I’m curious. What sort of capacity do you work with these guys? Are you giving them tips, giving them advice on what to do and how to market the course? What goes into it? If I’m to fire up a course on Udemy, obviously I’ve got to create the course and put it together, but what sort of other stuff, what sort of other challenges am I going to have on Udemy to get it up and running?  Frank:The truth is that the recipe for success on Udemy does vary. We think of our role as basically to be Sherpas for you guys as you go through the process of creating your course. That means first things first understanding what your objectives are, understanding where you’re starting. We have folks that come to us, like Pearson or Finch, who are big publishers who have lots of content everywhere. For them, it’s a question of translating their existing content into something that’s optimized for Udemy and that’s going to do well in the marketplace.  We also have individuals who are freelancers or just experts in their own profession, who are passionate and want to share that expertise with the world, whether because they want to help a student in India or Uganda learn their topic that they’re just really fired up about or they’re somebody who actually wants to monetize that expertise and make a lot of money selling their course on Udemy. That person is going to need a lot of different resources. We help you start and figure out exactly where you’re starting, map your course through the production stages, introduce to a community of thousands of other instructors, who are doing this right along side you, and then ultimately just get your course polished up and ready to move in the marketplace.  This is, at the end of the day, an eCommerce marketplace that’s competitive, and we want to make sure you’re successful in that. Once that’s all done and dusted, the nice part of being a part of the community is that you get to learn from all of the tricks and tactics that are working for those thousands of other instructors. It’s our job to distill that information down and deliver it to you in a way that’s actionable.  John:Fantastic. One thing I just want to point out here for the listener is that this applies … What we’re going to talk about is it obviously applies on Udemy, but the reason why I think this is interesting is I think a lot of this applies to just building courses in general, whether you’re putting them on Udemy or another site like it or just on your own website. That what makes a great course that’s really going to sell, really going to help people and really going to be successful and make money is that there are some fundamentals here.  Let’s get into that. Let’s talk about these 5 stages to building a course itself. The best way to do this is we can just work through the stages. What’s stage 1?  Frank:Stage 1 in the process, when you’re looking to build a course, in particular an online course, is the planning stage. I think there are a couple of different dimensions that go into the planning stage that often get overlooked. They come back to bite you in the behind later in the process when you’re in the marketplace. The first thing that I think about, whether you’re thinking about a free course that you just want to get a ton of traffic on or a paid course, the bottom line is your course is your product and your students are your customers. You need to approach the planning phase in exactly that fashion. Think of this as the early stage brainstorming of launching a product. The first question you have to ask yourself is who is your audience and what value are you going put in front of them? One way I like to think through this is if you were to be an old-school marketer and you were launching a consumer product out into the market, the first thing that somebody would tell you is “All right. What’s your positioning statement?” This gets into how you think through your topic selection for your course. If you just go in and you’re relatively flat and simple about it, you could say I would like to teach Microsoft Excel. That would get you started, but if you want to be truly successful, what you need to do is you need to put together a positioning statement that marries the topic you want to teach, the attributes of value that the course is going to deliver and the audience that you would like it to serve. The way to think of extending that “I’d like teach Microsoft Excel course”, would be to say “I would like to teach Microsoft Excel to busy working professionals with no prior experience, who would like to become advanced users of pivot tables for the accounting function.” That is super specific, but what it also means is that the value proposition that you’re going to deliver to a very specific audience is the first thing that you set on the table before you take another step down the process. John:What we’re talking about here is like a unique selling proposition, where let’s say I’m Joe Smith and I go to Udemy. I’m looking for an Excel course, and I happen to be in that target market. I’m going to be looking for a course that caters specifically to me. If I can’t find one, then I’ll just pick any old one, but if I saw a course with that tag line, or that positioning statement as you called it, it’s an absolute no-brainer to take that course. This is just a fundamental strategy of marketing. You have to do this not just for products, but everything that you do. When you try to connect with the marketplace or connect with the person, the more specific you can be about who you are and what you do and who you serve, the better the results you’re going to get. Frank:Absolutely. For that for that topic that I pointed out, Microsoft Excel, that happens to be one of Udemy’s most popular and successful topics. One of the pitfalls that we see is when people think about online courses the instinct is to be as broad as possible and as generic as possible, so that you appeal to a wide audience, but in practice, in any competitive marketplace, that’s a real good recipe for getting lost in the shuffle. We always recommend that before somebody actually starts to tackle their curriculum and actually map out their course, they have a really clear, specific understanding of who they are and who their audience is and how they want their course to deliver something to. John:This is partly why … I go around calling myself the Autoresponder Guy. That was something that I put together … It was about a year ago. I realized that I was doing all email marketing for people, but instead of just being a copywriter … There’s tons of copywriters out there … I’m going to be the Autoresponder Guy and position myself as just that guy. I was just going to do that. I was still going to do sales letters and other advertising stuff, but I was going to position myself as the Autoresponder Guy.  Since doing that, since holding myself in and going really narrow and tight, everything has really taken off because people get it. It’s a really simple message that people can pass on. My advice to anyone whether it’s for a course or just in their business, niche down. Go real tight. This podcast is a good example. I call it an email marketing podcast, but really it’s just about marketing. Today, we’re talking about courses. I don’t always have to talk about email marketing or autoresponders or anything like that. I can talk about anything that might appeal to someone who might be interested in autoresponders, which is the entire sales funnel.  Niching down doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to keep your focus really tight. It’s more of a marketing statement. I think it’s really important.  Frank:Absolutely. I actually love the idea of course creation as a part of your marketing podcast because at the end of the day creating an online course is becoming an inter-globe pillar whether it’s a personal or a professional content marketing strategy. It’s a way to grow an audience. It’s a way to grow your personal brand. It’s a pillar of your overall marketing strategy. You might be an individual or a company, but we have a lot of different use cases, where we see folks using courses to do customer education or courses to do partner education.  In fact, that was how I founded Udemy. I was working for a startup and I was trying to figure out a more efficient way to deliver partner training online. When you think about it that way and you think about this is a piece of your content strategy, then it makes a whole lot of sense that you need to focus and be very specific as you approach it.  John:It’s very much like Dan Kennedy, some of these old-school marketers talk about it, where you want to go and write a few books because if you can write a best-selling book in your market, in your niche … This is the same thing as creating a course on Udemy or any of these different things. You’re positioning, you’re selling and then you’re making money, but you’re also positioning yourself as the authority in that industry.  Frank:Absolutely. It builds your own credibility and it builds your audience around that topic, so it makes a lot of sense.  John:What’s number 2 in the 5 stages?  Frank:Number 2 in the 5 stages is production. For a video-based course, obviously this is going to look and feel very different from if you were building an in-person course or if you were building another one. What I would say is that for Udemy’s version of quality, which is all about an online on-demand experience where students can take the course anywhere, the things to think through here … I put basically 3 main things to pay attention to.  One is these are video-based courses, so while you may have a lot of different additional supplementary material (links, spreadsheets, all different activities, quizzes, things to drive engagement), at the end of the day, the first most visible version of quality is the quality of the video and the quality of the audio that you’re putting in front of your customer. You want to make sure that that’s nice and crisp. It’s absolutely possible to get exceptionally high quality video from an iPhone or just a smart phone generally these days. It can be done if you pay close attention to how to do it. Actually, on our site, we have lots of recommendations on how to do it on the cheap.   You can also get great quality audio from a pretty inexpensive mike and a pretty inexpensive setup, but one of the things that we see very highly correlated with engagement is just the crispness of production quality. The one other thing that I just add in there, when you think about production, is the world is changing very quickly. The idea of an online course wasn’t something that really existed very long ago and certainly wasn’t something that was in the common vernacular for everybody to consider doing for themselves.  The idea of mobile-enabled and mobile-optimized online courses is the next step. Udemy has an iPhone and an Android app. Actually, about 30% of our course consumption happens on mobile. When you’re actually in the process of doing the production, whether you’re doing that in your basement on the cheap or you’re working with a professional company, making sure that you’re thinking about your course as something that’s going to be this dynamic, ongoing, living breathing thing that is going to grow up and start to be increasingly consumed on mobile, we’ll help you think about it a little bit differently.  John:I’ve got a course right now. It’s a video course. It’s not on Udemy, but the quality of it is … I basically got a point and click digital camera and put in on a little stand … It’s called the McIntyre Method.  Frank:Yeah.  John:Put it on a stand and sat down by desk and just recorded a bunch of videos on email autoresponders and how I do them. There was no special mike. There was nothing high tech about it. Back when I did that course, I wanted to get it out as quickly as possible, almost just so I didn’t stall. I just got it done. Quite a lot of people seem to get a lot out of it, but it seems like what you’re saying is that if I took the time to really get some high quality audio and high quality video on there, the results would be even better.  Frank:I think that’s right. What we see is that having a crisp production doesn’t have to be expensive, but it does improve the overall student’s experience. When you think about this in the context of putting a course out into a marketplace that’s really competitive, having that crisp production is going to help drive your conversion. Having a good solid student experience, where the student feels like they actually got good value out of it, both the content, but also the experience, is going to drive repurchase.  Investing a little bit upfront pays big dividends on the back end. My guess is making a little bit of polish investment on the production up front could be really valuable.  John:I have a friend … I’ve never used it myself. He has … I think it’s a Samsung S2 or S3. I find this stuff fascinating, but he had a lab mike … You know those tiny little mikes you clip onto your shirt. From what I hear … I haven’t done this myself yet, but I can plug a little lab mike into my iPhone, fire up the video app and get the high quality videos with great sound. Is that correct?  Frank:Absolutely. We actually list on our site the latest and greatest mikes that we at Udemy are using, but also our instructor community is using. Those range from ones that could cost $50 to ones that could cost $1,500. You can get great quality in all of those different scenarios. It’s all about setting up the right environment and just making sure that you’re doing a good job of being crisp on it and exporting it correctly. A good resource is some of the knowledge-based articles on udemy.com. There’s also a community of folks. This doesn’t have to be expensive; you could definitely do it on the cheap.  John:What’s the link? I’ll have a link in the show notes of this, but just in case no one goes to the site, what’s a link to some of those articles? Is it udemy.com/knowledgebase? Frank:Yeah, if you go to udemy.com/support, you’ll be able to find some of those. That’s the main hub. The other place you could find it is there’s a Facebook group called The Udemy Studio. That’s where 20,000 Udemy experts who are creating courses simultaneously, all talk about the best tools that they use to create their courses. They’ll tell you the cheapest camera you can get, the best bang for your buck, same thing for audio.  John:Fantastic. That’s planning. That’s production. What’s stage 3?  Frank:Stage 3 is polish. For us, what this really means is starting to think about how your course is going to be presented in the marketplace. At this point, you have basically planned your course. You chose your topic, and you made sure it was differentiated. You built out your curriculum. Based on that curriculum, you produced your course. You’ve got great audio, great video. You’ve now assembled it into a course.  What you need to start to think about is what’s the marketing copy look like? What’s the face of this course to the market? This is where if you spent time upfront on that marketing positioning statement, you have a really good sense of exactly who your intended audience is, who you want to take your course and what they’re going to get out of it. That will flow very naturally into the personality and copy you reflect on the actual landing page. It will help you think through what course requirements you have, what learning objectives you might want to communicate to the audience.  I think having a very polished landing page is important, particularly again on a marketplace, because it’s where people will make their decision of whether or not they want to purchase your course. We actually spend a lot of time working directly with instructors to help them polish that landing page, both to be optimized for the student experience on Udemy, to draw traffic from external SEO through Google and other different channels. John:What we’re really talking about here is the sales page on the Udemy website. What are you finding? Our course creators, are they writing these sales pages themselves? Do you have recommendations for copywriters? How in depth are people going? Are they writing say 1,000 words or 2,000 words on the course page? What makes this work really well?  Frank:It’s a great question. Most of our instructors will create their own course landing page. They’ll create the course description and the instructor bio that are the 2 anchor elements for your course landing page. The main ingredients that you want to have in your course description to make it a really successfully converting one are basically all those elements of the value that you’re providing.  Who are you as an instructor? Why are you a credible expert on this particular topic? Why is taking a course from you going to be something that’s actually exciting and valuable to the student. Next thing is what’s the topic and what’s the use case for the skills that you’re going to get out of this topic? That’s linking together the learning objectives that the student’s going to have. What are they going to be able to do at the end of this course that they couldn’t do beforehand?  A lot of online course creation is about developing a course that delivers on a skills acquisition goal for many students. They come to Udemy, or come to an online course, to learn something concrete that they can put to work. What is that concrete thing that they’re going to learn? Having a sense of what the added bonuses are that are a part of this course? Are there extra quizzes? Are there live sessions with the instructor? Is it a community of students that are all debating topics? These are all important attributes to mention.  Then having your course requirements laid out in advance. Is this an advanced course or a prerequisite of taking another particular course is important? Is this for dummies, for everybody who can go ahead and take it right from scratch? If you map out all of those things, you may be looking at a course description that’s somewhere in the 300-1,000 word range. I think that’s fine. You want to be succinct. You want to be crisp about really the value proposition, but you also want to recognize that some people will find your course through search, so having a good amount of copy there doesn’t hurt you too much, in terms of SEO traffic.  John:That sounds straightforward to me. What’s stage 4?  Frank:Stage 4 is publishing. What I would say is publishing and polishing to me are very linked. At Udemy’s marketplace, we happen to have a quality review process. We make sure that every single course that’s submitted to Udemy gets feedback from real live individuals. We give you feedback on the overall structure of the course. We make sure that you’re doing some core things, like differentiating, selling at production, establishing and exceeding expectations and polishing your overall copy and your product.  The one thing that we think about in the publish phase is your online course should be a living breathing thing, so when you put this out there, you’re going to get feedback whether it’s from Udemy or it’s from your students. When we think about the publish phase, it’s all about iteration. What are you learning from your students? Are you surveying your students? Are you getting great feedback from them? Are you learning which lectures are the most useful and the most engaging and which lectures maybe could use a little bit of work?  It’s all about iterating and honing your product as something that you want to improve over time. One of the nice things about an online course is it should be really dynamic. You’re going to get a lot of information from your students. Make sure you feed that back into your course to make it more powerful, better converting, better selling over time.  John:What’s some of those things? Let’s say I put a course up there, and it’s been up for a little while, and it’s all going pretty well. What sort of indicators am I going to get? Are these going to be blog comments? Are people going to be emailing me? When they do, do I have to redo the entire course or will I redo a video? How will I get the information from the customers? Then how will I actually apply it into the product?  Frank:It’s a good question. In the Udemy eco-system, we give our instructors some pretty powerful analytics about what their course engagement looks like. We will tell them exactly which lectures had the highest engagement rates, where lectures are, where there’s dropoffs, how students are doing on quizzes and aggregate, all things like that. Those are pretty powerful. The other thing that we do is we set up a pretty transparent system for student communication. That includes student reviews.   If I were to think about the 3 main places that you should be looking as an instructor to try to make your course better, it would be listening to reviews … What are students saying after they’ve taken your course? On Udemy, you’ll see that in a very transparent way. If you’re doing it elsewhere, survey your students after they have completed a lecture or completed the entire course. Find out what worked and what didn’t and react to that.  The second place is looking at trends in engagement or patterns. If you find out that in a 10-lecture course, lecture 3 and lecture 9 have 4 times the engagement of the rest of them, maybe you should actually take from that feedback, that you should create a separate standalone course on those 2 really high-value topics. Dig deep into those, for instance. Alternatively, if you see that lecture 2 has a really high drop-off rate, think about tinkering with it. Do some AB testing. Do some thinking around a slight tweak with how you present the topic. See if you can actually drive engagement up overtime.   Last place that you should definitely be looking is in your course dashboard experience. What are the questions that students are asking? What questions are they asking you, either via email or inside the course form? What are they asking one another? Use those questions as an indicator as to what they care about? Try to steer your course in that direction.  John:Fantastic. It’s sort of like plans for a tree that’s growing.  Frank:Exactly. If you’re an author and you publish a book, it’s pretty hard. That’s a little bit set in stone. It’s very hard to iterate on a book that’s out there. If you have an online course, this is something that you can really craft and evolve over time, especially if there are new changes that are being made to your course or to your topic. You create a course on digital marketing, that course is stale tomorrow. That’s part of why Udemy exists, to have a very rapid high-pace of courses that fill those needs of skills gaps that are moving quickly.  You should think of your course as something that can also be a part of that. Add new lectures over time as new hot topics pop up. If you started an email marketing course a couple of years ago, but now there are different digital marketing channels that are relevant and exciting, evolve your course so that it walks that path.  John:I love this. What’s stage 5?  Frank:Stage 5 is promotion. Whether it’s Udemy or anywhere else online, I think the reality of any self-publishing platform is that being a content creator, and definitely being a course creator or an instructor, are not spectator sports. While we’re proud of the fact that Udemy is a big marketplace … We have 3 million students today all over the world who are taking courses. You can definitely carve out in a very passive way a slice of that traffic.  If you want to be your most powerful instructor, you’re going to need to be both an instructor and a marketer. This means being out there, creating blog posts around your course topic, driving some traffic, fiddling around with other channels, maybe posting some of your videos on YouTube as a fun old way to actually drive traffic to your course. This is all about being out there and being an active marketer, making some noise so that your brand starts to get there and gain some momentum.  John:Is this something that people should know before they come to Udemy or is this something that Udemy can help with, in terms of promotion and giving people a map of how to actually promote that course?  Frank:The nice thing about Udemy is it’s a pretty flexible platform. As I mentioned, we’re working with some folks who are doing this for the first time and have no audience and other folks who have been doing it for a long time and have tens of thousands of YouTube or Twitter followers. They have a natural built-in audience.  The nice thing about the community is we have those folks and we have everybody in between. Part of our role as Udemy, as the platform, is to distill down what’s working from all of our best partners and help equip you with those. We actually have a woman on our team, Danielle Lesley, whose day job is to just find great tactics that are new and fresh and work and deliver those to our new instructors. You don’t have to know it in advance as long as you’re hungry and excited and willing to test out new things. We can help you find the recipe that is going to work for your specific content, your specific audience and your business model.  John:Absolutely. That’s great. Fantastic. We’re right on time here, but before you go, I wanted to talk a little bit about Udemy specifically. One thing I find really interesting here is that all of this can be applied to just setting up an eBook or a course on your own site. The problem, though, is that, especially for someone who has never done a course before, is that’s going to be very challenging. You mentioned analytics. That sounds fantastic. There’s a lot of different things that Udemy is going to make very, very easy and very simple. I really liked that.  I’m curious. What sort of numbers are people seeing on Udemy? If they set up a course, what can they really expect from it? How much money are they going to make? How long will it take to do it? All that sort of stuff.  Frank:Some good questions. As you might imagine with a big audience on the supply side, it’s a broad range. Just to give you a bit of a sense of a spectrum of what a course looks like and what success looks like on Udemy, the shortest course is 30 minutes. The longest course is 130 hours. The average course is probably in the 2 to 4 hour range. It’s mostly based in video content. For that average course, I’d say … There are free courses on Udemy. There are also courses that are $1,000. That average course is usually priced somewhere in $70 to $100 range.  When you actually think about what success means for instructors, we’re pretty proud of the fact that there are instructors who have done extraordinarily well on Udemy. We have over 50 instructors who have made more than $50,000 with their courses. Our top instructor has made multiple millions. The average instructor on Udemy has made a little over $7,000. There’s definitely some real money that can be made.  At the same time, if you wanted to create a free course, you just want to get your message out there really broadly, we’re more than happy to be a platform that helps you do that in a very quick, efficient, scalable way.  John:Very cool. We’re right on time here, Frank. Before we go, though, give people a heads up. Where’s the best place to go if they want to get more information on Udemy and maybe even sign up and create their first course?  Frank:Absolutely. We’re firm believers that anyone can be an expert and anyone can teach online. Democratizing education from the supply side is going to be the future. Whether you are creating your personal brand, trying to build a course as a part of your content strategy, I’d definitely encourage you to come to udemy.com. In specific, if you’re looking to potentially create a course, go to udemy.com/teach. No matter what you are an expert in, if you can dream it, you can teach it on Udemy. John:Love it. Fantastic. Thanks for coming on the show, Frank.  Frank:Thanks a lot, John.  The post Episode #61- Frank Visciano on The 5 Pillars to Building a Course That Sells. appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


10 Jun 2014

Rank #16

Podcast cover

Episode #205 – Jeff Kronenberg On How To Set Yourself Free With A Tax-Exempt Retirement

Straight out of college… Jeff wanted to dive into the lucrative field of pharmaceutical sales. Then he discovered the only people they were taking back then… despite committing himself to two summers of internship… were “very attractive women”. Reaching out to his network, he pivoted to a career in financial services and the world of Wall St. 14+ years later, he’s here to deliver some very good news. You can set aside your worry, stress, and the paralysis of thinking about your retirement. You can have your cake and eat it too. Jeff helps people take their assets… whether a mountain of treasure or a hill built up from years of back-breaking work… and shield yourself from future pain by showing you how to get your retirement… TAX- EXEMPT. So if you’re worried what kind of shape your in financially because you’re in your later years… or you’re young and the importance of setting yourself up right for the future is beginning to dawning on you… listen to this podcast now as Jeff has what amounts to a life-saving message. Wouldn’t you agree your future and your family is more than worth it? In this episode, you’ll discover: Why is it all the financial advice is about how to amass a mountain of assets? THIS is every bit as important. (9:34) What gets Jeff super-jazzed about people finding this retirement solution. Are you in your 40’s and haven’t checked “under the hood” at your numbers? Listen here (14:29) 40% of people will run out of money during retirement with their current plan…is this you? (What to do about it NOW – 10:57) The history of taxes and tax rates. How deferring your taxes could kill your retirement and your family’s future (19:01) Mentioned: Imagine Wealth Coaching Jeff Kronenberg on Facebook Schedule a Breakthrough Session with Jeff David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey everybody – welcome to another edition of the podcast, I’m David Allan – we’re back and today we’ve got an exciting guest because this is something I don’t think many people like to really think about but it is one of the most important things that you will encounter probably going forward in your life especially if you’re in business and if you’re a copywriter like a lot of our listeners are this is something that involves a little bit of planning perhaps which most people may not want to think about but we have an excellent retirement planner on a show today he’s got kind of a very interesting story and he’s got a very interesting offer that I think you’ll appreciate once you hear him – Jeff Kronenberg welcome to the show… Jeff Kronenberg: David thank you great to be here. David Allan: Yeah, it’s nice to have you on the show, man. I think this is one of these things that people are sort of like you know talk about and whispers maybe or don’t like to think about but it’s super important and you’re an expert in this field and you’ve been doing this for like you said the better part of like 14 years or sometimes right mm-hmm so this will be interesting I want you to sort of start though by taking us back like we like to do on this show we like to go back to see sort of how you progressed into where you’re at today so take us back into the early life of Jeff and sort of what led you to this… Jeff Kronenberg: Yeah, thanks so you know I when I got out of college actually what I wanted to do was be a pharmaceutical sales rep and that was kind of the hot job at the time so when I got out of college I had done this internship at a pharmaceutical company and they wouldn’t hire me and I’m like what are you kidding me of intern for you for two summers and you know for free and then I came to realize that well I was not a pretty girl and therefore they weren’t gonna hold me because that was the description of what they were looking for in that industry at the time so here I was getting out of college and I thought oh my gosh you know I’m gonna do this and it’s a great job but a great career and all that and you know I was like disqualified right away that’s okay I kind of just fell into the industry that I’m in I met a guy that knew a guy and know another guy and I started my journey in the financial services industry in New York City downtown downtown off Wall Street and I yeah thinking back to one of the first training classes that I had and I remember you know the line of expertise that I have is very out-of-the-box stuff you know we’re helping people essentially get their assets tax exempt so although retirement planning is kind of a boring subject when you say to someone you know they say what do you do and you say well I’ll show you how to get your wealth tax exempt their ears perk up because let’s face it it’ll definitely yeah no one wants to have to pay more in taxes than then they’re required to you’ve got to pay the income tax once but after that it’s really your choice as to what you want to do with your money I really just got lucky in terms of meeting the right people I think very very early on that were con ahead and and you know that were headed and heading in the right direction in terms of you know the knowledge they had in the information and the strategies that they shared with clients so I’ve been doing this work from the get-go obviously it’s progressed over time I’m still learning to this day so it’s kind of how it all it was just by chance so that’s fascinating I mean it says like you said I think it’s kind of an unsexy topic to talk about retirement and protecting your assets and stuff like that but it’s really one of the most important things I mean he doesn’t take much of a Google search to find out plenty of horror stories and stuff of people who have not fought ahead to to their retirement or to you know other people passing away in their family and coming into assets and so forth that aren’t necessarily yours to begin with but that you’ve been left from other people and so forth totally I think that you know for the most part if you picture a mountain as an example well we learn about all we hear about is how to get up the mountain how do we invest our money how do we get rates of return that are really good and this and Adam we hear oh you have to take a lot of risk on in order to grow your wealth but the reality is is that if you understand how the how money really works what’s more important than acquiring a large treasure chest of assets at the end of the day if we’re saving for one day when we’re not gonna work anymore we need to know how to get off the financial mountain so to speak in other words we’re never learning or hearing about how to spend our money in retirement you know and so I use the mountain analogy because I forget the statistic but I heard about 70 percent of the deaths um that occur on Mount Everest occur on the descent right that’s the great that’s great well yeah you’re right you know so if if I was a Sherpa you know knowing that you’ve got a much greater probability of dying you’d probably hire me as the Sherpa to get you down the mountain than the one that gets you up right yeah absolutely so what I’m helping people with is not just the accumulation of their assets in a much safer fashion without risks and without taxes but we’re also taking that to the next level and saying hey we need to also show you how to spend your money at retirement and if it’s done the right way and you can have your assets tax exempt that therefore then means that your cash flow coming off the mountain is also tax exempt so when you study it you’re gonna have a heck of a lot more cash flow and if you don’t do it this way and people love hearing that and they love seeing it you know it’s it it’s a game changer really a game changer and a life changer it’s freedom that’s totally true I would totally believe what you’re saying I mean a lot of people of course in the latter stages of their lives that may be listening to this and they’re also worried about you know what they’re gonna leave behind or what they’re worried about their family or their family members and so forth and so with the services program that you provide it’s going to ease those worries so those those latter years are stress-free which is super important as you get older yeah I mean I I have this kind of you know I guess you would maybe call it a spiritual view on money or whatever word you want to use but you know what at the end of the day money is a fake thing you know human brilliant human beings we were able to create this system of currency in this world here and it’s it’s really really interesting when you look at it from that standpoint like money runs our life some of us yeah yeah I mean it’s kind of silly when you take a step back because it’s like where did this all Evan come from and so my view is like you know it’s super easy for me to help people get what they want with their money and get what they want it retirement but what really jazzes me is seeing the smiles on their faces when that fear about how they’re gonna do it dissipates when they’re pumping their fists because you know they realized wow I just reached freedom I just reached that pinnacle of financial freedom that gets me going because what we’re doing is we’re saving people’s lives and they’re able to live a happier healthier less stressed-out life and then we reclaim control of not just their money but the way that they’re gonna live and enjoy those latter part of the years without having to worry and without having to have the sense of confusion and without having to know that you know there’s a risk right around the corner whether it’s the tax rates going up and changing or the stock market taking fifty percent of their money you know when you don’t have those concerns you can now live life on your terms and that’s uh and it’s a beautiful thing to see it’s a beautiful thing to know that you’re impacting you know your your fellow brothers and sisters in such a way you know we’re all connected at the end of the day yeah I think it’s one of those things that’s so nice to see because especially people of like my you know I’m in my 40s now my parents my deaf father as in his 70s maybe sort of a lot of those that day and age a lot of people were like living that sort of like deferred life plan work a certain amount and then you’re gonna save up like you’re saying and you’re acquire all these treasure chest of assets and then you’re gonna stop working one day and you’re gonna try to enjoy this stuff and people like to you know travel or do whatever they want to do and it’s a lot of people have found out that that’s not the case the way the world has gone and the economy has shifted here and there and maybe they’ve been burned a couple times and now their nest egg or whatever is not as large as I’d hope it would be and maybe some of those dreams are no longer attainable with something like you offer I mean it’s it makes that process so much more reassuring and worryfree totally and I can give you a really simple example as to kind of the issue that I think people are facing but then an alternative because at the end of the day what you described there is person a let’s say and person a retires and they have let’s just say three million dollars and that million dollars gives them let’s just call it a hundred and thirty thousand dollars a year taxable for life or and that may work out for them or it may not most of the time it’s not working out you have three million dollars you’ve got to get a return on that money but also make sure that you don’t run out of money and so there’s this thing called a withdrawal rate I don’t want to get too hyper technical here but the withdrawal rate of your money so that you have a 60% chance of not running out of money is around 3% why on earth would you ever go for a plan and go and and strategically move yourself towards a situation where you have a chance 60% chance of not running out of money because to me that means 40% of the time you will it makes no sense that’s output so that’s why people can’t retire is they’re literally just setting themselves up wrong but they don’t we don’t know alternatives because person a with three million and a buck thirty of income as an example may or may not be attainable let’s just say it is I could make somebody or I could show them how they can make themselves be person B but person B has one point five million dollars and a hundred thousand dollars of cash flow tax exempt the who would you rather be at the end of the day knowing at in at the end when you’re retired it’s all about maintaining your lifestyle it’s all about cash flow that’s a person person be easy choice yeah easy choice so therefore would dad said that means that the folks out there who have acquired a treasured treasure chest have asks us but maybe it didn’t go as they had planned if they could just become person B and get those assets to spend as if they’ve got two times as much they’re gonna be okay and that’s what I help people do it’s powerful super powerful and of course we you know we probably all have people in our lives that have experienced some of those horror stories and we probably even listening to this when this comes out people will be thinking oh if only you know if only had known this sooner or my uncle Nick had known about this or whatever you know and it’s one of those things that like nobody likes to talk about because it is kind of scary I think too there’s like you know trepidation that comes along with thinking about being older especially if you’re younger you know and and often if you’re quite young then you’re not thinking about it at all because you feel like you’re impervious you’re focusing on your career and your family perhaps and it just doesn’t seem like something that’s like that’s super important because you figure you got the whole life to figure it out but I mean the sooner you get started the better yeah I mean it’s it’s certainly easy to procrastinate on it and it’s not as fun as going to a basketball game or a football game or skiing or sitting at the beach that’s for sure but admit when when people I found gets started on it you know younger and let’s say their 40s or something like that stead of their 50s or 60s it allows them to relax more and then go enjoy the things that you know they and they like to do and then subconsciously in the back of their head they don’t have this worry like shoot am I actually gonna be able to like not have to go to this job I don’t like or run this business that I don’t really want to run anymore or am I gonna have to do this forever and so when they what I found through experience is that when people get started younger and they know they’re headed in the direction that’s going to work a hundred percent of the time versus sixty percent of the time just better quality of life overall you’ve this subconscious worry is now gone yeah and then and then the trepidation and the fear perhaps of like I think I think that’s one of the things to which experienced people who were over 40 to is like you’re also thinking you know like you almost don’t want to know what you’re up against so you put it off because you’re just like I don’t if I’d actually check the numbers or do it it’s gonna be a rude awakening oh yeah yeah totally and and and when they start digging under the hood it’s actually worse I’ll give you an example most people have their money in these retirement plans right but right thing is though is that when we do these we we do them because we want to not pay taxes on our money today so we’re deferring paying the tax right but we’re also deferring the tax calculation right so we don’t really know what tax rates we will be in in the future but you know here’s the question you know do you think that it’ll cost more or less to run the government in ten twenty and thirty years that’s a pretty easy one I’d say yeah so we know what we know it’ll cost more therefore how do they how does the government make money to function they raise taxes so you could be putting money into one of these vehicles and then just setting yourself up to pay more on your money in the future in which case you’re doing reverse tax planning so you know no one would ever want to do it good news is is that if you get it it soon enough and you realize this soon enough and you address it soon enough you can reverse it that’s the good news I just as rebels and for anybody listening to this I mean to sort of encounter that is like yeah that’s a mistake a lot of people have made is like to defer all that stuff to later and I have family members going through that right now where they’re like trying to get that taxation stuff out of the way now when they’re in their early 40s because of because of that because of that you’re unsure what kind of rage and it’s funny though if you study taxes you know if you look at where they’ve been at between let’s just go back to mid ronald reagan became president taxes were between seventy and ninety four percent but it’s the highest bracket i mean that’s you know those are big numbers tears well really even before they stayed between 73 and 70 or the way up until around 1980 so then they came down but you know we’ve got we’ve got Wars like the Gulf War to still pay for we got we have all this stuff you know we we have to pay for it at some point we’re so high is that you know during those that period of time from let’s say say nineteen eighteen or nineteen twenty whatever however you want to look at it up until the carter administration then reagan we used to pay we used to fight a war that actually pay for it you know really they allow companies and pay for it or do we would pay for the things that we did for the citizens so we haven’t been doing that for a very long time but at some point we’ll have to and then therefore in order to be an informed consumer or an informed citizen it’s just important to understand where things were because it kind of gives you an indication of where things could go right now even though it’s think we’re taxed at such a high rate historically speaking we’re really not right good point Lee so that’s why it’s important to address it now before it’s too late I think you’re that’s a very good point and that’s some interesting historical facts are bringing to bear there it’s very interesting to me to how little people prepare for this kind of stuff I mean some people do and I try to slander everybody here today but it’s a subject that you know prevention is such a slow thing to sort of take hold in people’s lives because wherever they’re at in their life they probably feel good maybe about especially if they have some money and they’re like not particularly they’re worried about it and it’s usually like you said people get started like way way late or that they figure they’ve got it handled but they aren’t gonna end up paying big on the back end and when the tax rate perhaps may be higher you know obviously you’ve encountered a lot of these people and horror stories and stuff over your 14 year career in this maybe some of the listeners would benefit from maybe a few stories of people who were able to reverse it and sort of what ages they were at and so forth and sort of what’s city of the main names obviously but some sort of situations that people think themselves out of because of your expertise mm-hmm yeah sure so if we take the person a in person be example I had this client come in the door about five years ago and at the time he was 56 years old and he wanted to retire in eight or nine years was his goal so when he looked at what he had and he looked at a projection of where he thought he could go let’s just say he had $500,000 I’m just making the numbers part of it up because it’s kind of irrelevant what he actually had but let’s just say he had $500,000 and he wanted or he thought he could get that 500 to become a million in eight or nine years okay but the thing was is that when he count all right I stopped working and I’ve got a million dollars and I can get let’s just say four person on my money or five percent of my money well then I’ve got to pay taxes on that so my let’s just say it’s five percent my five percent of my million my fifty actually gets taxed huh and my social security I get is also taxed so he calculated for himself if he could even get five percent which is a whole nother story what he calculated when he came into my office was I’m a millionaire but I’m not going to be able to live even close to the way I want to live I’m not gonna be able to travel to see my kids when they have their own children which they have or what she thinks they’re gonna do now at the time he hung bright whose kids were younger um but he you know that was a hope every parent wants their their kids to have kids you know so he calculated out that he wouldn’t be able to travel he wouldn’t be able to maintain a Country Club membership he wouldn’t be able to do the things that he wanted to do and so you know it’s sad to see people come in who they’re working hard they’re running businesses whatever they’re doing and they’re trying to do all the right things but the system just has them set up to be set up wrong you know we just basically switch things around what made him person B and as a result of that he had much stronger cash flow he’s currently is set up to have much stronger cash flow and will have it throughout retirement and he’ll be able to you know he’ll be able to live the life that he wants to live and that’s that’s the cool part about it is five years have passed a lot of time has passed he’s happier now as a result of this the worries gone and then when he does get into retirement he’ll be good the reality is is that you can get your money working more than once for you doing multiple jobs for you and when you do that you can accomplish both of the is that all of the things whether it be paying for your daughter’s wedding paying for college buying cars buying real estate retiring all those things can really be accomplished using the same buck and we don’t need to segment it into a B dot this dollar for this I me need this dollar for that that’s the wrong way to look at money um so you know that’s a whole nother conversation just about efficiency but did that coming in to your question about yeah yeah I think that’s a very good answer and man as you shared with us here today I’ve just been like outstanding just a real sort of fresh perspective I think one that people need to hear and people need to consider that it’s not as scary perhaps as they first thought and then there are people like you out there Jeff that are can make things quite simple and straightforward yeah you know it is simple it’s not easy but it’s simple and we make it easy and we make it simple but it certainly also doesn’t have to be as scary you know people listening like you don’t have to be scared you just have to you know work with someone that does the right things that can validate and improve it to you that’s also important so no I’m glad that this hopefully this shed some light for the listeners and viewers for sure absolutely now if people want to get ahold of you personally Jeff where’s the best place to go how do they get in touch or get involved with you yeah so they can just go right to my website it’s wwm ajan wealth coach ENCOM forward slash apply and I would suggest going and and going going there watching the video that I’ve got up it’ll give you some great information we’ll expand even further on the things that we talked about today amen and do that go there now check it out check it out now and then go to the apply page and apply and book a call I mean we’re here only so many hours in a day and the scheduled debt does get filled up quickly but go there go there now go to WWF coaching calm forward-slash apply and pick your time for a breakthrough call and it’ll be the best 45 minutes when you book that call will get on and it’ll be the best 45 minutes you’ve spent talking and planning your retirement talking about in planning your retirement you have ever had and will ever had frankly awesome awesome great advice I really want to thank you for coming on the show today you really give me food for thought and I know the people listening this will be perhaps reconsidering the trepidation and so forth with getting involved with getting a head start and for the younger people to get on it now so that you can take advantage of that compound interest curve yeah thanks for coming on the show man it’s been a real pleasure listen it’s been my pleasure was really great speaking with you and uh you know to all the listeners out there thank you for tuning in and I hope everyone has a safe and healthy and blessed day thanks awesome and for everybody else of course hopefully we’ll be back again with somebody next week who’s as knowledgeable and thoughtful and informative as our friend Jeff here The post Episode #205 – Jeff Kronenberg On How To Set Yourself Free With A Tax-Exempt Retirement appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


4 Dec 2018

Rank #17

Podcast cover

Episode #203 – Scott Ayres On Killer Social Media. Opinion-Free Practices Based On Testing & Data

Scott has had a diverse career. From a minister… to shipping cars purchased online… to a bounce house/waterslide business… he’s experienced in many fields. He became the top user and most knowledgeable about one of his favorite online products. When gas prices hit the roof, the owner of the company brought him onboard full time. He helped drive their blog to among the very top social media blogs. He co-authored the Facebook All-In-One book for the famous “Dummies” series. In January of 2017, he came on board at Agora Pulse to start the Social Media Lab. They get to the bottom of social media tactics and strategies… taking on gurus and “best practice”advice all over the interwebs. Today, Scott is bringing what they have found here… to the McMethod Email Marketing Podcast. Are you committing these social media SINS? In this episode, you’ll discover: Will using a LinkedIn hastag get you more impressions? Scott put it to the test. How to figure out exactly where your audience hangs out. Scott destroys what Instagram goo-roos have been teaching for year? Have you been a victim of this advice? Compelling data from Scott’;s (former) bounce house/inflatables business. The social media success story of Gerald and the Colossus pizza. Mentioned: Agora Pulse Social Media Lab Social Media Lab Podcast Scott Ayres on Facebook David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey everybody, we’re back for another edition of the podcast I’m David Allan – it’s probably been a while like you’re listening to this I won’t get into that right away but today we got an exciting guest who’s gonna talk a lot about social media his name is Scott Ayers from the social media lab and the parent company Agora pulse Scott welcome to the show. Scott Ayres: Hey thanks for having me on. David Allan: Yeah I think this is gonna be exciting because as people will find out it’s been a little hiatus here for the – you know marketing podcast and we’re getting back at her and you’re the first guest to sort of restart things post summer and so maybe let’s give a little your backstory. How did you get into social media and sort of you know take us – take us up to where you’re at now. Scott Ayres: Man, it depends on where we start I think when social media first came out back and held myspace days I was addicted to MySpace and then from a business perspective you know I I guess this was probably on a 2007 2008 I started working in the auto transport business I moved cars for a living mainly like people who bought in sold cars on eBay or auctions and stuff and a guy named Gary Remy who I still remember I lived in Houston at the time he came in our office was hoping it was the SEO and stuff he’s like hey you guys got to sign up for this site called LinkedIn and we’re like what is that and he’s like sign up for and you get tons of customers from it you just got to connect with people and so I sign it for LinkedIn and sure enough I got addicted to it I mean this is so cool because iPhone I can talk to people and I can get a lot of business from I saw the business value of it and then fast forward about a year and a half and I started my own transport business from home you know shipping cars you know instead of having the split Commission’s kept it all myself but got all the headaches so and so I dove in completely with Facebook and Twitter because nobody in that niche was really doing much in that and discovered that I could get more than 50% of my clients via Twitter and Facebook and not to spend any money on that was just connecting with people and through that process the fun thing was and how I kind of moved over from the transport business into this I started creating there was a product called fanpage engine back in those days that was if you familiar with Facebook pages a usability those custom tabs they called them they had his product that was real simple didn’t require any coding you could create these customized pages for people to have on their business page so I started using their tool to make my own pages on my own my Facebook page and then started selling I’m like doing the service for people and started doing blogs and videos and tutorials about how to use their product and they got David Foster on the company he reached out to me is like man you know more about our app than we do and he said can you write some blocks for Zoar and then can you do some training videos for so for a couple months I started doing training videos for him and blogs for him and then he’s like hey you want to help out with customer support and like yeah sure you know I’m doing some side during that run of my shipping business I think it caught the economy collapsed and that’s when that’s when fuel prices went to like I’m in Texas and so for us normal fuel price was like two dollars a gallon went to like four-and-a-half five dollars a gallon and no one was buying cars for one and nobody we could get them shipped either and so it right about that time you know they was like hey once you come work for me full time and somebody sure I didn’t know what that minute I’ve been the typical you know have a nine-to-five kind of a job and for all my life and so I started doing social media for them it started being their guy to blog and in within a couple of about a year so our blog went to the top 10 list for social media examiner’s top social media blogs which was a big deal and so through that process I worked for them for a couple years and then I’m working for another app company called post planner I’m doing the same sort of work you know the the blogging that I must have written face book all-in-one for dummies through that process and got our blog at the top of social media examiner’s lists again and then about a year and a half ago or so January 2017 I came on board at Agora pulse just to do this project we call the social media lab it’s pretty interesting yeah I could go even further about what I’ve done before that which would blow your mind but and for this we’ll leave it at that yeah former minister turns social media so this is where you’re at now you came on board with Agora pulse at the Social Media Lab and this is the constant mag I get questions being in marketing I get questions about social media all the time and I don’t really consider myself even that well qualified to answer some of them beyond my rare few exploits on my own maybe start talking about what should people be doing I mean it’s constantly it seems like a constantly shifting sand you know of like what’s hot what’s what’s not and the different algorithms are changing constantly of course and you know what should people be doing if you’re there this is a small business owner listening to this right now or should they start on what sort of shot stuff should they be looking to do well that’s that’s a convoluted question right you know for one for what we do at the lab just to kind of throw it out there we knew our goal is to go out there and and test all the different social media tactics that we hear from a lot of the Guru’s a lot of brands are trying or just people questioning wondering if this works or not we can’t test everything there’s some things that you can’t quantify and get good data on so we don’t bother testing a lot of stuff on based on sentiment or real hard to test right but I can go out there and run a test like I just published a test today on LinkedIn hashtags dude does those using a hash tag at least one on a LinkedIn post gets you more impressions and our results came back yes they do compared to the same exact link post they got about twenty nine percent higher impressions when we added last hashtag to it which tells me people are using hashtags on LinkedIn right and so there’s stuff like that we can test that are pretty I would say use is they’re very time-consuming like right now I’m working on a test on Twitter on about five different Twitter accounts it’s gonna end up being about fifteen hundred tweets I’m gonna have got a schedule and go through into the process sometimes too daunting but our whole goal is just to try to figure out ways to you know bus those missed and talked about those things that people are saying is true and sometimes they’re not and then given data to back it up and try to pull out opinion as much as I can which is really hard for an opinionated person like myself but I try to pull it out on all the blog posts where we want to say this is the data and sometimes we’re shocked by it and sometimes I’m absolutely wrong on my hypothesis right and I have to kind of you know eat crow and say well that didn’t work but and that’s it and here’s the data and the science says and I think that’s a better way for a small business to go back to your question you know I think for one you you’ve got to figure out and this isn’t something you know I’ve tested because it’d be hard to test could your business gonna be different but you need to figure out where your audience is if your audience is not an Instagram audience don’t be on Instagram if they’re not a Twitter audience don’t be there they’re not a Facebook audience so don’t be there heck your audience might be on Google+ still who knows and so you’ve got to find out what that is for you I think most businesses feel the the obligation to hop on every social platform there is and they run themselves ragged trying to keep up and they end up doing a poor job with all of them instead of just being really good at one of them so that’s the first thing I was saying you would test that probably by doing zip if you’re a local business do the zip code search on the different sites see how many users are in that area or try to run an ad on one of those sites and see what kind of target market you get when you do your whatever your perfect target market looks like that’s how you’re gonna know if it’s the right platform to you so you want to look at that and then you know from there it’s just it’s trying different things to see what works what kind of what sort of content resonates with your brain it’s not gonna be the same for every brand like for example I for the last five years I had a side business running do it written bounce houses and water slides and stuff cool in Texas because that was written him anyway right but it was kind of funny to do that process I did it for five years acts they just passed the business over three weeks ago to my brother he’s been working with me the entire five years and it made sense to finally just move on from it let him run it and so I noticed through that though that you know there were certain things on social media that worked for me that didn’t work on other sites like for example on that bounce house business posting links to my product was horrible no one cared no one clicked on them you know I didn’t get any traffic attending engagement but boy I post a picture of some kids smiling on a water slide the thing would go viral in my world but I do the opposite software the links are do great for us photos are just kind of me sometimes you know on Facebook you know people go like well okay great yeah you posted a photo of your team good for you you know it’s not it’s not as there’s not that close of a connection for agar for a company like that so you got to figure out what that is for you and then kind of run with it from there like Instagram for example and we get a some data set from the second but on Instagram for that local bounce house business I even though I had 5,000 or so followers on this account I worked really hard on it for five years I didn’t get any business from it at all I mean it’s just I got I got some you know vanity metric likes you know and some ancillary type engagement but no one was you know messaging me or calling me from Instagram saying I want to rent a bounce house but about 80% of my business and we did six figures a year eighty percent of our business was coming from Facebook and so the rest of it was google it so meant when I passed the business on my brother the other day I’m like for one you’re not yeah I’ll give you the Facebook page which has you know six seven thousand likes and I spent a lot of money to get to that a small town it’s only eight thousand people get that many likes I said yeah I’m not giving you the Instagram account though for one it’s a waste of your time and two I want to use it for something else so I stole it and change the name to something else so I could continue to use it for testing so yeah that was a fun little experiment so that that whole thing for me it’s been an experiment the entire five years kind of see what works what doesn’t work what I’ve found for a local business I don’t know if you’re mainly your listeners or local businesses or our small businesses or what I’m finding that that Facebook live is is gold for a local business and a real prime real-life example and I talk about this guy all the time a friend of mine named Gerald owns a pizza joint in my town and he created this 28 inch around Pizza called the Colossus giant pizzas literally literally the blur the Box barely fit in the back of my suburban that shows you how big it is and so he said I know exactly and it’s about seven pounds just with pepperoni and cheese on seven pounds and he said he wanted to do an eating contest and see if somebody could eat that pizza in an hour and if they did they got the pizza for free they got a t-shirt they got their picture on the wall blah blah blah and the pizzas about 60 bucks and and still Mike Jarrell dude you got to go you gotta go live on Facebook he’s like I don’t know how to do that I mean he’s a guy that was annoyed with Facebook you know he didn’t want to pay for ads and I was sure I might you’ve got to run a Facebook live so I’m literally like 30 minutes before this starts I’m texting him how to go live on Facebook and so he hops on his phone goes live on Facebook and if for his pages got about 22 hundred likes kind of put it in perspective and he’ll get decent and gave me you know 30 40 likes on post that sort of thing and in 13 minutes maybe 50 or 60 of us were watching it I was watching from home it was like 7 8 o’clock at night and all of a sudden after about that 15 20 minute mark you know there’s a hundred people there’s 200 people 300 people 400 all set it jumps like a thousand I think the max live was about 2,500 people watching it Wow and they were watching it from around the globe it wasn’t just locally there was people from France from from Ireland from the UK all around the United States watching this guy and this little podunk town in Texas try to eat this giant pizza so the right people saw it and somehow Facebook’s algorithm saw that and notice hey this is trendy and it’s just hot and so they started showing it to more people the cool part of the guy didn’t eat the pizza he ran off camera with like a minute left and no vomit look who that wasn’t on camera and Gerald’s phone died you know right after that he was texting me later like this was awesome the video get about I think total about 12,000 views was massive for a little brand like that but where’s the ROI in that yeah it’s great didn’t people watched it the next day the local news station contacted him and said hey can we send out one of our reporters and do a live remote during our morning show for two hours and let him try to eat that pizza massive free advertising I mean massive free advertising form the guy and of course he got he ain’t less of the pizza in the our former former football player he couldn’t he couldn’t but the thing I told gentlemen you got him now he keeps doing him he does those lives every time he doesn’t get 10,000 12,000 views every time but he’s got a couple hundred a couple thousand and it’s kind of created this you know momentum for him now that he sells that pizza like crazy and it all started because he did that Facebook live he pushed the button went like I didn’t know what he was doing didn’t cost him a single penny you know to do it and now he’s seen you know huge dividends on doing that one little Act so that’s I mean I haven’t that’s not even a test on the lab but that’s just a little personal thing that I’ve seen you know real life happened that went golly I wish would I’m pulling his dad actually to look at and see what it’s done to his page because I am actually an admin on his page I said you guys make me an admin your page so what should maybe you do well let’s talk about Instagram if you don’t mind like I’d like to talk about Instagram because I have another business myself and I use Instagram I’ve tried to start my page and just I had a page but I did like you know put some work into it here the line over the summer and I’d love to hear more about Instagram it seems it is you know it’s one of those things where you know the the avid user the typical user and Instagram has been younger or people who just want to post you know their coffee and their lunch and you know activities and all that stuff but there’s tons of stuff on the business perspective that you know are huge value Instagram stories are awesome especially if you gather your audience as Millennials you want to leverage stories like crazy but some things that we tested that you know all the quote-unquote gurus have been teaching we’re pretty interesting first one that was probably the biggest one that I had to and that really was scared to publish this it all got done cuz a lot of my friends in marketing have been teaching this for years and I even reached out to him today so you know I’ve tested this and I you know this isn’t working and so what a lot of marketers have been teaching a lot of people over the years is when you use hashtags put them in the first comment instead of leaving them in the post because it makes the original post look kind of ugly you know because you’ve got too much text and people don’t want to see the hashtags I know you’re being you know mr. spammy marketer by using the hashtags so they people have been struck people for years to kind of hide those in the comments hide those in the comments and there’s even apps out there that you know circumvent instagrams official API and we’ll put the first comment in for you even though they’re breaking instagrams API by doing it right and so a lot of people been doing it for you I used to do it I’d always go back and put it in the comments because you know you want to look pretty in a sense you know on for two users and so we tested 30 hashtags you know in the original post and in the same 30 hashtags in the comments would you know on different posts to kind of see which one you know might do better in the end and here’s the interesting here’s here’s the data likes were 9.8 4% higher when we put the hashtags in the original post so right there alone the engagement was tired when I just left them in the post and then the here’s a more important part I thought reach or impressions or however you want to call it on Instagram was twenty nine point four one percent higher when we just simply put the hashtags in the original post instead of going back and putting in the comments yeah it’s 129 percent mass if it had just been like H percent I’ve been like well that’s almost a wash but 29 percents a big deal and so I mean I went back and tested it twice just to make sure because I mean I literally I won’t name their names but there was couple people on like God is influential is gonna be ticked off at it because they’re friends of ours but they have courses on this stuff and I’m like okay but it’s yeah it’s true and you got to go with the data on anything in life you got to go by what the data says not your opinion on it and so what happens here and the reason this became a thing is a couple of reasons you used to be you saw a lot more of the text when you’re thumbing through Instagram on your phone right now you’d only see about three lines and then it goes to the dot dot dot more and you have to tap on the more to open up the rest of the post so you don’t see the ugly block of someone’s texts because Instagram isn’t want that user experience they want you to focus on the photo not necessary the text so that’s changed for one so if you put it far enough down below the fold if you will you know what no one will see it anyway the second thing was you know you rewind a couple years ago instagrams algorithm you know on the explore option with the hashtags if you if you did whenever you put your hashtag in is it would show back up at the top of that explore option so if I posted something you know right now and then let’s say 30 40 minutes out our two hours I don’t know what the time would have been you later I come back in and post bunch of hashtags in the comments boom that post gets surfaced back at the top of the Explorer option for that hashtag I mean that is a Instagram realize it’s like every other social platform they realize that marketers like me have you know trying to or getting around their algorithm and they said oh wait a minute let’s don’t do it anymore so now it that explore option on your on Instagram is based on the time the post was made and so it doesn’t matter when you put that hashtag in it’s not going to push it back up to the top like it used to so it’s when you put that post in so you want to get it out there as soon as you can and then and make sure it shows up in that explore option that someone’s searching for you know pizza is in Dallas or something I don’t know it’ll show up now I got pizza on the brain right I say that with my chick-fil-a so I mean that’s how that Explorer feed is working now and I think that’s why we saw the results we did because there in a sense you’re penalized if you try to go back and do it later because you’re getting around the algorithm you’re working around it are trying to so now you’re not rewarded for that the other thing to think about too with hashtags this and we’ve done a lot of tests on hashtags because it’s such a people know they’re good but they don’t know what to do is I’m a lot of times hashtags are not for your existing followers so it doesn’t matter if you use it for your existing followers are going to see your content based on it they’ve engaged with you before or not so if they’re engaging with you it doesn’t matter what the content part of it says the hash tag is not going to resurface it for them hash tags or on any of the site where it’s LinkedIn Facebook Twitter or whatever hashtags are for people searching with that hash tag to hopefully find your content and get exposed to it may become like you follow you whatever so you got to kind of keep that in mind with the hashtags and your strategy on them so you know the whimsical ones are funny maybe but they don’t do any good hash tag that was fun there’s no one searching that was there searching you know social media SAS tech marketing tips you know they’re searching for that sort of stuff you know motivational whatever it might be they’re searching those hashtags so that’s what those hashtags are for and so you got to use those right so that was a big one on Instagram that I mean I tell you what I got so many I got a couple of the emails going are you sure yeah wish it was different but it’s not but it makes it interesting well that’s so that’s important part though I mean that like as people listening to this podcast a lot of people are freelance copywriters and people who employ freelance copywriters and you know in the direct response world this is exactly the important part yeah media is like we want to know not what we think works we want to know what actually works yeah and you can only get that through testing exactly I mean if you’re not testing you know you’re just you’re taking the advice and it’s just advice from someone else who maybe it worked for them but it is it’s not gonna work for everybody so that’s why it’s what’s been really cool with this project is and I call it project it’s my full-time job so it’s not going away but but the lab that the cool the cool part of it that’s for my boss the way he didn’t say why was he on that podcast but the thing with the lab we try to do is not just test on you know a software company’s page we’re testing on a bounce house business we’re testing on a personal profile we’re we’re testing on you know a pizza business or you know someone who’s selling digital products we’re testing on multiple kinds of accounts and then averaging those numbers together that kind of give us a trend otherwise what happens in a lot of those tests that I’ve seen other people do you know let’s and I’m not picking on anybody I’m just saying like so say HubSpot while your users pretty listeners probably know HubSpot yeah let’s say they run a test on just their account and it gets some really cool data maybe it’s you know hundreds of pieces of data but it was only on their type of business so unless you you are that sort of you know inbound marketing type company it may not apply to you all right that’s real important kind of for me to always have that cross section of different types that way I can give an average and then kind of go from use it average for my conclusion so that’s that’s a really big deal for me so tell people you know as we wind down here tell people how to get a hold of you and like maybe you know where to go to listen to the social media lab and here’s some more this fantastic data that you are accumulating yeah anywhere you listen to podcast is search for social media lab you should find us we’re on all the different you know podcast platforms as far as our website you can go to gora pulse comm forward slash social media lab we kind of decided beginning not to do a separate brand we think of this for us the social media lab is all about you know getting out some great content and but see somebody’s missed but it’s also a branding move for us so we kind of by word I kind of equated till we get a room in the house a small room on the house and Agora polls so Agora pulse com4 slash social media lab you can see all the different experiments based on the topic so you can go directly to the podcast from there and anywhere on social we’re basically at Agora polls and if you tweet us it’s always me pretty much that does offer social media because I’m also a social media manager awesome that’s usually me that’s engaging and if anybody has you know some sort of dying question or something they’d love is he tested we’re always open to taking you know ideas from people and if we run with one of them we’ll always mention you in that test or have you do it along with us that’s excellent excellent think you’ve given out just pounds of valuable content and you busted some you know some myths that have been perpetuating this industry for a long time which I really enjoyed and it’s been a real pleasure having you on Scott thanks for coming on the show yeah thanks for having me on and a good talking to you we’ll have to circle back you know maybe you’ve got something you want me to test and we’ll circle back on it yeah absolutely and for everybody else listen to this and you know welcome to the email marketing podcast which is started again after the lazy summer so to speak and we’ll be back again with another exciting guest hopefully someone is insightful and as scientifically driven as Scott The post Episode #203 – Scott Ayres On Killer Social Media. Opinion-Free Practices Based On Testing & Data appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


13 Nov 2018

Rank #18

Podcast cover

Episode #199 – Gabriella Rapone On Get Into The Inbox. Secrets Email Service Providers Will Never Reveal

I first heard about Gabriella Rapone on a Facebook comment. It was a thread involving two friends, marketers and former guests… Justin Goff (Episode #158) and Dave Miz (Episode #145). She is an inboxing and email copywriter expert… having worked in some shadier areas of email in her past. She talks about how she got into the email game. How she helps business owners get their email game on point. It’s a free-flowing conversation we jumped into so pardon the lack of the usual intro. She drops a ton of knowledge. Such as how to correct any problems you’re having getting your email delivered to the right place. A lot of ideas and “behind the curtain” knowledge about Email Service Providers. Authentication. Triggers. Writing emails. We move fast through many issues and ideas in this short but action-packed interview. I know it will help our listeners. Whether getting your emails into your people’s inboxes… or correcting the simple errors a lot of small business owners are making to boost your response… Gabi delivers the goods. In this episode, you’ll discover: The one mistake even experienced brands and businesses make in every single email. Email Service Providers. The good, bad and ugly. Who shoudl you be using? Why THIS email myth pushed by so many “experts” is dumb, dumb, dumb and what your emails should doing instead. GDPR mania. “Behind the curtain” truth on how it should have gone down. How to “gauge” when your business needs to “go it alone”. Have you reached this income level with your email? Mentioned: Gabriella’s website Gabriella’s Email Maverick Facebook group Secrets To Inboxing course David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: If people are having some of these issue or they’re thinking about this and they’re brand new even and they’re looking to set themslevs up for success. What re some of the ESP’s you love and also if they’re starting from scratch what steps should they take to be proactive about avoidng problems? Gabriella Rapone: That’s a great question. So that’s one of the two questions I always get. Which ESP should I be picking, which, you know, is a valid question because people want to know what is quick and easy. Do I have a favorite one? It really comes down to what tools you need to make your business successful and I actually ahve this cheat sheet that I give to people that actually lists the priorities so that you know…OK lets say that you need 24 hour support. Right? email is a 24/7 game, its not a 9-5 game right? And we all know the problems never happen 9-5. They happen at 5:05 – so that’s it, depending on your business you know this is why I ahve this checklist because it really depends on what you need. I often say I need 24/7 assistance. I need to know if there is a problem I can pick up the phone or I can speak to someone via chat and I can get it resolved. Because If I am not emailing I’m not making money. And if I’m not making money I don’t need a service provider. So this is why it really comes down to why “this is what you need”. Of course, you want to keep things a s simple as possible when you start because that’s what kind of intimidates people. A lot of people are intimidated by email because they think there’s a lot of setup that needs to be done. There isn’t much setup to be done but you do need to be aware of what will set you up for success. The post Episode #199 – Gabriella Rapone On Get Into The Inbox. Secrets Email Service Providers Will Never Reveal appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


10 Jul 2018

Rank #19

Podcast cover

Episode #197 – John McIntyre On The Silent “Cancer” Ruining Your Dream Life

For the last few years, McMethod founder John McIntyre has been on a journey. He hesitates to call it a spiritual journey, but rather a journey of self-discovery. He’s been learning to work with his own emotions. Years ago, fresh off a Richard Branson event on Necker Island, he appeared to be living his best life… Penthouse apartment with a great view. making great money. Tropical location. Yet, while he wasn’t depressed he wasn’t happy. He spent five or six years going in circles by trying to “throw his brain” at the problem. Finally, he uncovered the secret. He learned to FEEL is feelings. Sounds weird, right? It was an epiphany. So why should YOU care? Simple… …it has taken John’s performance in all aspects of his life to a new, unimaginable level. The best part is, he doesn’t TRY anymore. It’s automatic! Sound like something you might want in your life? Listen to John break it all down now. In this episode, you’ll discover: Do certain situations stress or “trigger” you? Find the root cause why you react this way now. How John’s “ideal life” made his situation worse and could be doing the same to you. Plagued by negative thoughts surrounding your dreams and goals? Remove THIS, and like magic, you move forward. Are you one step removed from your feelings? Take the “pizza test” and find out today. Discover the “surgery” that will save you the next 20 years of your life. Mentioned: That Which Is Aware The Presence Process by Michael Brown “The Work” documentary David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey, everybody, we’re back with another edition of the podcast and today we have someone who hasn’t been on the show in a while – John McIntyre, he started this podcast and he’s back on the show and he has some very interesting things to say. John, welcome to the show. John McIntyre: Thanks for having me Dave, it’s good to be back. David Allan: Yeah it’s good to have you brother, it’s always fun when you’re on the show, we always have a good time, and something we’re going to talk about today I think is very important because this affects a lot of people not just of course in the marketing game but in all aspects of life all walks of life. And, this is a journey you have been on for a couple of years and I’m just going to let you take it away and tell us what you’ve been up to and what you have discovered. John McIntyre: Ah, yeah man, where to start, where to start. So I emailed you and said let’s do a podcast on something that no one is really talking about. Not funnels and copywriting and of course o this podcast it’s all about emails and copywriting and freelancing, how to get clients and things like that. But what journey I have been on the last few years – I don’t want to call it a spiritual journey because that word is so loaded The post Episode #197 – John McIntyre On The Silent “Cancer” Ruining Your Dream Life appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.


12 Jun 2018

Rank #20