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Julia Zemiro

29 Podcast Episodes

Latest 1 Oct 2022 | Updated Daily

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🚘 JULIA ZEMIRO: It's The Final Season Of 'Home Delivery'

JAM Nation with Jonesy & Amanda

Julia Zemiro joins Jonesy & Amanda ahead of the return of Home Delivery on ABC.

5mins

15 Jun 2022

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Final 'Home Delivery' for Julia Zemiro

RN Breakfast - Separate stories podcast

Julia Zemiro's Home Delivery has seen the actor and comedian take some of Australia's most loved people on a trip down memory lane. But she's taking the car for one last spin, after a decade, the final season starts this weekend.

8mins

15 Jun 2022

Similar People

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Let's Get Quizzical: Mark Humphries and Julia Zemiro

RN Drive - Separate stories podcast

This week we're asking the tough questions on Election 2022 - from the policies, to the people and the unpredictable moments caught on camera.

31mins

20 May 2022

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The Wrap with Jenna Clarke and Paul Karp, the truth on UFOs is still out there plus Mark Humphries and Julia Zemiro in the Quiz

RN Drive - Full program podcast

With intelligent and thought-provoking analysis, RN Drive goes behind the headlines to give you original insight into the world you live in.Keep up to date with federal politics, current affairs, arts, culture and the stories that are making Australia talk.

20mins

20 May 2022

Most Popular

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Julia Zemiro Asks 'Who Cares?' — E5 — Penny Ackery (Hume indy Candidate)

A Rational Fear

🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear 📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/ 🎟️ SEE OUR LIVE SHOW: https://comedy.com.au/tour/a-rational-fear-live/ G'day Fearmongers, This is the 2nd last JZAC — and it's a good one. JZ has a conversation with Independent Candidate for Hume, Penny Ackery. There is a feeling of change in country NSW. Penny Ackery is a former special needs teacher who has been tasked by her community to represent the huge electorate of Hume. At 17 240 sq km it spans from Boorowa in the west to Appin in the east, with Goulburn smack bang in the middle. It's currently held by the Minister for Emission Expansion, Angus Taylor. One of the most powerful ministers in the government. But Penny has been hard at it, campaigning publicly since June 2021 — traveling the breadth of the electorate, listening, and consulting with folks about how to better represent them. It's the world's longest job interview. JZ lives in the electorate next door and has been supporting Penny Ackery in her campaign, so if this chat  sounds like two friends who are trying to make change in their communities — it's because it is. Cheers Dan 🤑 CHIP INTO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear During the election, your support is more crucial than ever! Thank you FEARMONGERS! If you enjoyed this please drop us a review on Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/a-rational-fear/id522303261 Bertha Announcement  0:00  This podcast is supported in part by the Bertha Foundation.  Julia Zemiro  0:04  Hi, Julia Zemiro here, I'm recording this podcast on the land of the Gundam gara people. Sovereignty was never ceded. We need a treaty. Let's start the podcast. Dan Ilic  0:13  A podcast about politics for people who hate politics. This is Julian Zemiro asks, Who cares? Julia Zemiro  0:24  On this second to last podcast I'm doing with the irrational fie organization, how I love them. I wanted to speak with an independent, no matter how you look at it. One big part of Australia's 2022 election will have been the independence no matter what the result is, and I wanted to speak to one close to home Penny Ackery is an independent running in the federal electorate of Hume in New South Wales. And for the last nine years, it's been held by Angus Taylor, Minister for energy and emissions reduction, or is he anyway, Hume is enormous. I live in Whitlam, which is right next door, and it stretches from Warragamba. We're Alicia Camden and loving them in the north, down through Wollondilly, winter, Caribee, and golden, which is where Penny lives to borrow, gunning and Crookwell in the southwest. penny spent 30 years of her life in this electorate. Her most recent job has been as a teacher for kids with special needs. And she has been a teacher at Golden and picked in high schools. And during the pandemic, she was an advocate for small businesses across the electorate, showcasing what they were doing, just helping them to kind of keep alive. And I thought it was interesting to talk to an independent I've been a bit involved with independence, doing some launches, doing some webinars on Zoom, etc. Because I was fascinated by it. And I wanted to find out what it was all about why people were doing it, were people really stepping up and they absolutely were. And I think it's going to be a very interesting chapter in Australian politics, and it will be interesting to see where it goes. In the future. It feels like a circuit breaker for me. And I reckon a circuit breaker is not a bad idea. I wanted to speak to Penny about why she stepped up to run as an independent what the process was like, and what it's like in there now with a few days to go to the election day. Welcome, Penny, how you going? Penny Ackery  2:24  I'm tired. I'm getting to the exhaustion stakes. It's been a pretty exciting journey. It's I've met so many great people. I've had a great time actually in reality, so I'm doing pretty well. I'm just getting pretty tired and a bit of exhaustion setting in Julia Zemiro  2:40  I had a little flashback to the launch your launch. As a matter of just explaining why I'm interested in the independent movement in general. I like the way it's made people wake up a little bit to the fact that whether you like it or not, whether you think you should vote or not. There is someone in Canberra that represents your electorate and your life. And if you don't find out a bit about those people, then how can you make informed decisions when you vote, but I was excited by having read Kathy McGowan's book I was excited about people getting involved and getting enthusiastic about something that doesn't usually enthuse it make them enthusiastic, which is politics. And I almost feel like saying politics isn't even the word for it. It's just how we live. It's how we want to run our lives. It's it includes family and includes education includes all the things that we need to make a good society. But with your launch, I remember we had two options. We might be outside if it didn't rain, and then there was rain. And so we ended up in this fabulous basketball court in Golden 350 people were there. It was very exciting. You were so impressive. Penny, you just came out of that gate. How do you feel you've changed from that day of seeing all those people eagerly wanting to listen, they weren't all on board, yet. They were still figuring out what was going on to now. Penny Ackery  4:05  I think I've just got better at being a performer. But I think what it is, is I think more confident in the message that I'm giving and more confident in putting out what we believe in and talking to people about what they want, and asking them the right questions. So as I go from gathering to gathering, I've sort of perfected a little bit or polished what I say to people, but what I've also found is that so many questions are asked and so many questions out of left field, they think oh, I didn't think about that one. But what's been really good is I've been informed a lot more about the local issues about what people care about on a national board. And I've been able to get their views as well and meld them into what I know that the electorate wants. So how in a way I've more developed rather than actually change because of the excitement that that was in there. at basketball stadium was palpable. And every time I go somewhere, it's the same feeling. Even if it's only six people, I went to Penrose Association Hall just last Tuesday, and had all these people, they're really keen to support me, but wanting to listen and to discuss. So I haven't been telling them. I've been discussing with what it is they want, how they feel about things or going, getting some ideas, learning new things. I think it's a two way conversation that's been really, really important. Julia Zemiro  5:31  Now, I'm in the Whitlam electorate, which is right next door to the human electorate, which is the area that you're running for Hume is enormous. Are you finding that there are some some common themes that you're hearing from everyone? Penny Ackery  5:44  Yes. And the first one I'm usually greeted with is we need to change, we have to find a way to do our democracy better, we have to make things different. And the number of people I've met that have come out and said, Gosh, I would never ever come to something like this, I would never organize something like this, you know, like, I really feel strongly that we need to get a better option. And that's, that really stuns me. Like I knew there was a little group around me that pretty keen, you know, politically aware, and so on. But there's an awful lot of people either side of the political spectrum, that are saying it's not working, this two party systems are very well, but it's breaking down, we're not getting what we need these days. And I'm going to come out, and I'm going to sort of help, I'm going to wave the banner, and I'm going to support you, because you're the middle option, you're the centrist, you're the one that will listen the out there and help make a change. So that has been the connecting thing or up climate change, or I like to talk more about a renewable energy economy, protecting the environment, climate change is a real red flag. And I like to move right away from that. Because when I say to people who don't believe in climate change, when I say well, what about our water, we need to protect it and make sure it's clean? And what about our air and what we're putting into the air. And everybody's on board with that everybody wants fresh water and clean air and food? That's good. So I think talking about that is far more productive. And then it lets us go straight on to what can we do to make it better, which is to rewire Australia, to really think about how we farming, all of those issues. And especially it doesn't matter where you go, but particularly with farmers, that's more meaningful than saying, Oh, you have to sort of take action against climate change, or what is the action. And I find people are talking to me, not just about that sort of thing. But saying, Well, it's great to have all these announcements and to say, Oh, we've got to do this, we got to do that. But so Ghana, Ghana, Ghana, it's not a let's do it. And this is what we're gonna do. And this is step one. And that's what I like to talk about, we know that we can rewire Australia, we know that we have the renewables with our business counselors already said, Yes, we need a better target. And we got to move. We've even seen a lot of our coal mining plants start looking at what we need to start looking at, we will have to shut down how can we transition? And what else can our product be? Oh, we can do renewables. I think that's a, I think that's coming. And I think people are really recognizing that a lot more. So we do talk about how we can improve our environment and how we can have renewable energy is up and down the electric, when we Julia Zemiro  8:20  did the launch, Cathy McGowan, I think drove herself down from Victoria to attend, because that's how that's how passionate she feels about knowing full well, that one person can make a difference and change things. And she, of course, was the member for in die and had a lot of did a lot of great work for her electorate there. But what struck me on the day is that, you know, she looked at that group of 350 people and was sort of saying, you may not think that Penny knows how to be a politician yet, because she said, I didn't know I was green when I got in there. But as soon as she got in there, she realized that she did have a voice as an independent, rather than being an opposition where she was fighting for things all the time, and how fast she learnt. And I think what strikes me is that when you look at all the mainly women standing for being an independent, I find you all incredibly overqualified for the job of what I've seen men in suits do now for for 10 years. I just think when I look at you, Penny, you've worked as a teacher, as a teacher special needs, you've been doing it for a very long time, the skills that go into the patience, the focus, the empathy, they're all things that people keep saying I'm missing in, in politics, and I never understood why that would be the place where that should be missing. Penny Ackery  9:49  Yeah, that's right. And I mean, the other one we can add to there is action and having a plan and actually getting to the end of it. And then if the plan doesn't work, changing it because as I said, I often say As a teacher, like, you know, you have kids, and you've got to teach them a concept. So, you know, you plan it out halfway through then jumping out the window. So you think, Oh, hang on, it's not working, I think I'd better do something different. So you change it straightaway. You don't wait till the end of the lesson. When it's all chaos, you do it straight away. And then you get a good outcome you don't have you know, that's that action. And that's changing what's not working. And one of the things that other people talk to me about as well is that if we're going on the wrong track, and we can see that, why do we keep doing it, like it's not going to make it better? We need to stop, evaluate and change track. And yes, it might look embarrassing, who cares if we get about an outcome. And so that's another thing people are talking about not just talking about things, but actually getting the action happening. And if it's not working the way it should look at it, and change it and do it when it's happened going wrong, not later on. So we can think of a whole lot of things even over the pandemic, things seem to be going well. And then there was a bit of a disaster. And in some cases, we just kept doing the same thing. And it didn't get better. So I think it's those sorts of skills that most people have in life, but we seem to have lost them in that political sphere, for whatever reason, Julia Zemiro  11:11  for whatever reason, who knows? Well, I would say, for whatever reason, you know, the other thing, too, is that, as independents who are coming into politics, not from the usual route, you've got nothing to lose, and everything to gain by saying, Well, I want to do this because I want to serve you. Whereas it's clear that the system in there now many people, many of them have gotten in there, because it was something that was said to them at high school that they will possibly be perfect for one day, which is to be Prime Minister or to be treasurer or to. And when that dawned on me, it was it was a revelation, because I thought But hang on, I still haven't chosen you. I still haven't chosen you to be in charge of that party, I still haven't chosen you, I will have to kind of cross my fingers and hope you'll do the right thing. So if anything on the 21st on Saturday night, the shake up is something I'm interested in, because you know a lot of people saying oh, we can't shake things up. We don't want it to be chaotic or crazy. Well, firstly, a hung parliament isn't crazy. It's a balanced Parliament as far as I'm concerned. But secondly, we need something to change. It's not you're saying when you're when you're teaching and working with a group of 30 kids, and you've got that lesson plan, and it's not working. Of course, you have to turn it and and work with what's there. And that's, that's such a skill. I think that is such a skill. Penny Ackery  12:32  Yes. And I think that, like you say that's what lack is lacking at the moment. And I'm in the position I am because I was passionate about getting some change. And I was selected from a group of four other people to be in this position by a whole couple of 100 people. And so I really don't have anything to lose, like, at the moment, I've got a garden out there that is so full of weeds. You know, and I've got a house that needs finishing. And I've got people that I haven't seen for a long time, I've got plenty of things I could do with my life. But so I've got nothing to lose if I if I am gonna win, but just in case I don't, I have another life to go to. It's not like I'm oh my gosh, I'm not the Prime Minister, I'm not in Parliament, oh, that was my dream. This is not my dream, this is what I need to do. Because I've been selected to do it by the community. And we are working as hard as we can to get there. Because it's going to make life better. It's going to make our democracy better. But it's not something that I chose to do. I've got other things I can do in my life. But I'm choosing to do this because people have chosen me to do it. Julia Zemiro  13:37  I watched one of those town halls on zoom with the four candidates, including you and you were just so succinct and clear as only a teacher can be. Because that's the other thing. You know, it's people say how do you train for politics and what schools none of them went to political school. It's, it's actually teachers who get up in front of kids and talk day after day after day after day after day after day, I think have more kind of energy and more experiencing going I don't need every single person in this room to hear what I'm saying. I just need a few of you to be you know, kind of watching. I know I can see what you're doing. I can see what you're doing. I didn't I did Rick and teachers have this incredible peripheral vision and hearing. They see everything that's happening. They choose to react to the bits they've got to react to. Penny Ackery  14:24  I love it. That's right. And I mean, it's sort of even coming to kind of and there is some conflict in Parliament at times. There are some things that are said that probably shouldn't be said. And it's as a teacher, well, you just know, like, the worst way to deal with a conflict is to continue the conflict. So just pull back and chill out. And I think that's an important skill that everybody making whatever walk of life needs to happen. Don't get hung up about what somebody's saying, pull back and reassess. And just ignore it and just go on as you're doing. And I mean, you know, as a special ed teacher, that's a great Have a skill to have. Because if you don't have it Julia Zemiro  15:04  before you were saying, some people have been coming up to you and saying, I've never come to something like this before, I've never been engaged before. So if we're waking people up a little bit, do you think once one person is woken up, that they're awake? Like, there's no going back? Do you feel like they'll keep being engaged? Penny Ackery  15:27  Look, I believe they will, because I think some people have just sort of gone along and voted and went and shatter their television screens, but not actually become actively involved in what's happening. Now, obviously, if we just have the same people voted back in again, that's going to be harder for them to get that engagement. When I get in, they will be able to engage, because I'll be there knocking on their door saying, Well, you know, come on, what do you think you need, you know, we need to work on this together. But even if it goes back to be the same old bad way we've got at the moment, I think those people that had been energized and decided there's better ways of doing things, and they have got a voice, I think they'll be banging on the door a lot more. And I think they've found that, you know, a lot of these volunteers, we've got 1000s of them have really networked together and formed groups of friendships. And knowing that there's, you know, there's a few of us that will actually go up and, and complain and say, Well, we haven't been answered, why haven't we? I think that might give people a real lift to be able to feel they can do that. Now. Julia Zemiro  16:31  What have you found surprising out there talking to people, Penny Ackery  16:34  the number of local issues that we don't know. So what I've been doing, as, I guess, educating perhaps, or passing the message around, so I visited up, they wanted me to go up to Silverdale, which is very north in the electorate, up around Warragamba Latinum. Going up there, because people were really very concerned about the lack of consultation that's happening around this new airport, the Sydney the second Sydney Airport, all the things that are happening with zoning. So people have actually built a house with a granny flat because they want to rent it out while Mum can look after the kids and it provides income. And then suddenly the rezoning happens. And they have to take the granny flat down or they're not allowed to put the second storey on. And so these people aren't being consulted. So I've been talking about that issue about the rezoning that just suddenly happens and the issues that are happening with this airport and not the lack of information about it. So hearing about that and then coming down to the Picton people who are having trouble with their bypass or haven't got one yet that's the trouble. And then going down to even Tara go which is far south here from here with their incinerator waste incinerator. So it's all the different issues that you don't realize it so it surprised me. And how many different issues are more local to that area, what has been great is to actually inform those people down, say in gunning, this is what's happening around the airport area. And let me tell you, when I go north, what's happening down here, so it's not so much surprising, but it's been it's been an experience to be able to let people know what happens on their patch is really important to them. But there's a whole lot of other things that may affect one day, especially with signing what's going to happen on their patch as well, even though at the moment might not. So maybe not so much surprising. But I've been surprised in the passion of those local people about what's happening in their area. Just two days ago, two evenings ago, I went to Crookwell Crookwell had funded over the many years and ran through voluntary assistance through a voluntary board, wonderful aged care home. And when I went into that hole to talk about what was going to happen to the aged care home because they now need to merge with United care they're going to merge with Cole was packed, there would have been a well over 200 people there. And the feeling in the room of that community, how passionate they are about keeping that aged care in their area, rather than having it closed down and move somewhere else. And the work and the effort and the volunteering that's happened to make these aged care work for so many years, and the passion they want. They have in keeping it open. That was really an eye opener rather than surprising to know that in a small community, people really work together and really care about each other. And the importance of this. There were a lot of young people there as well as older people and the nurses were there their concern about what is what is happening in aged care all over that's affecting them. That was really uplifting to know that so many communities like that can come together and really make a difference in a change. Julia Zemiro  19:48  What always astounds me with something like aged care and early childhood care is it's all of us. Like it's not something that exists over there. I'm going To be aged care in a few years, in 20 years time, you know, we are all going to be if we're lucky to live that long, we're going to be aged care. Our friends, I don't have my own children. But you know, the beginning of childcare, the beginning of how what kind of education and getting early childhood education, that is only going to help you become a better adult, a better citizen, a better voter, it just blows my mind. So when you hear all the horrible things that happened in aged care, that certainly came out during COVID. They are all our relatives, they are our friends and family. And this community is obviously and the young people too, are saying I want to be able to visit my grandmother. Every weekend, I want to know that my grandfather's being looked after, it's, I don't want to have to drive great distances to pop in and have a cup of tea. Because that's what makes us feel like a happier person and not be stressed because we've left them somewhere on the other side of the state. And there they all were. Yeah, Penny Ackery  20:59  that is so true. And that was one of the issues that was coming up that if that if you're likely it won't be closed, but there was a threat that it could be closed, which means that all those people from Crookwell, who have people that have lived in the area for decades, suddenly going off to some other aged care that really shows how important it is to keep those rural communities together. Because these people have built such an amazing thing, fundraising themselves, and volunteering on boards and keeping it all going for so long, that it's a special part of their town. And it's special to them, because it does keep their relatives, their moms, dads, grandparents, and so on, right within the community. So that community spirit is still there. And we need to be really aware that there are many, many, many regional communities that want that community spirit to see. It's almost like a big family of big extended family in these small communities. And we shouldn't be trying to make them bigger and bigger and bigger, we should acknowledge that. This is how some communities work best. Julia Zemiro  21:58  But also, if at a federal level and a state level, you allow those people to keep doing what they do so well, which is take initiative, do things try and keep things together, you work as a team, you're not having to do it all as a leader, necessarily, but you're empowering others, which is what makes us interested in being better citizens. It's what makes us interested in keeping things beautiful, green, healthy, nearby, close by connected. That's that's where I've been sort of fascinated in this whole process in the last year and because of COVID, shutting us all down and separating us all of how we all come back together again. And you know, don't get people keep saying they're disconnected from voting that citizens are disconnected from voting. They're often not disconnected from the community. But it's then how it translates to, oh, who's your voice, then that goes to camera and says, Oh, can I just tell you about Crookwell I hope people are starting to see that there's a link, you know, that there's like, there's this umbilical cord that takes you there, whether you like it or not, it's there. So if you want to complain and complain, if you're not going to do anything about it, then I can't help you. Penny Ackery  23:09  That's right, isn't it. And even, you know, I went there. And they said that I was there, I didn't speak or anything like that. I just listened and was amazed. But the number of people that came up and spoke to me about even the meal fellow from Meals on Wheels, who organizes it in Crookwell? And the saying, Look, you know, we get subsidized for seven meals, seven people, but we've actually they've actually assessed us and we've got 15. So there's an issue straightaway that go that I can take to higher levels to say, Well, you've the government has assessed that there are 15 people needing Meals on Wheels, but you're only subsidizing seven of them. So what happens to the rest of them. So it's things like that, that are really important. Julia Zemiro  23:51  And it's insulting to be ignored that way too, because it's about detail, the devil is always in the detail. We know that we know that. You see it as well in your work as a teacher. It's the little things, the details that add up to make something work. And, again, I would say any of the people who are standing as independents in their jobs and what they've done, I think more lived and work experience, then then many of the people in charge, what can people do to help at this point, Penny. Penny Ackery  24:19  So the best thing to do is to go onto my website, Penny accurate.com.au. And you can volunteer and there's spreadsheets there for volunteering for pre poll moving, or pre polling booths. And also obviously on the day itself, because like I mentioned, there's around about 80 polling booths on the day. So if we can have at least one preferably two people on each of those booths, that will be just enormously helpful and it will really, really make a difference. And so that's the best thing people can do at the moment. We're still you know, we're having people stand on the rail and road and on the sides of some of the other roads waving placards in the morning. so they can definitely volunteer for that. And that's a lot of fun doing that you meet lots of great people and and it's really uplifting when you have lots of honks and waves. And so that's a great thing. People are more than welcome to volunteer to do that. And again, they can volunteer through the website. The polling day is essential. And as many pre polling people that can come to man, the four polling booths beforehand is would be fantastic. Yeah, we've already got we've got a fair few already people volunteering, we've got a roster, but all the more the merrier. And minor just add, we have people coming from the Blue Mountains to do pre polling. We have people from Maggi coming to pre Paul, for us. We have people from Wellington, coming to pre Paul from Canberra. And these people have even been door knocking and letterboxing. So the feeling that we really, really need to change is not just within each separate electorate, but it's a broad thing. And people are wanting to help from outside to make that change happen. Julia Zemiro  25:57  That's that was my case. You know, I'm in Whitlam and you know, and I wanted to come and help because I mean, I'll say quite honestly, I don't think Angus Taylor's doing any good in that community. I don't think he understands that community. And I was interested to, the only way to learn about something is to become part of it. And doing that launch was so it was a very eye opening to me to about how it works and how I found a lot of the people, like I said in, in that basketball court, I was chatting to them beforehand, we all were we all chatting while we were waiting for it to start. And some of them were curious. Some of them were undecided. Some of them had never been to something like this before. As you've said, some knew exactly what was going on. Some was saying I've got a young person in my life, or my daughter's in her teens or my son's just turned 20. And and how did they get involved? They were hungry for information. And that's been very interesting to me. Because if people are hungry for information, we've got to give it to them. And I think what's been really dispiriting is I think we've had a government in the last 10 years that doesn't want to empower people at all to know less and less and less about what's going on. And don't ask the question, read the back page, just check out what's happening in sport and entertainment. And don't look at the rest. And our lives are just intertwined with what happens in Canberra, they just end locally in our electorate, we have to be we have to care you have to care otherwise can't complain. Sorry. That's my that's my I'd have a T shirt saying can't complain if you don't get involved. Penny Ackery  27:34  Yeah, look, that's true. And one of the other really big things that's come out through is even the volunteers people that are interested that you know, they are interested in politics, they're aware, the the lack of knowledge that people often have, about how the system works, how the actual voting works. So we've all got a bit of an idea, but I've was really informed by some of the things I've watched on YouTube about preferential voting. I thought I knew. But there's a whole lot of things wrong. Yeah, right. Okay. So what are us as volunteers and people that are talking to people on the streets, we're actually starting to educate if you like, people about what how they actually vote. And when you put a preference like what does that actually mean? Does it actually go anywhere? Or it might depend on the photo? But it's also making sure that they know which isn't the tablecloth? Or is it the little sheep? Which one are you wearing as low house with a little one, and I may not, they're educated people, but we don't, whether it's something we need to do in schools a lot more or whether it just me needs to be really hammered home when elections happen to remind people, because there's a system that works really well. But if we're informed about how we make the system work, then we empower ourselves a lot more. Acropolis the other day, I had a lady stopped me and she said, one of your door knockers came to the door, and I was in my pajamas. But my young young son came and you know, he's I think he was just turning to vote. And so this person was able to explain to him and I learned a lot she said about what you actually do on on voting day, and how you you know how the system works, but also about those other issues that I wasn't aware of, and he wasn't. So I believe we've actually not just had a an election campaign, but an education campaign to Julia Zemiro  29:22  100%. And it's got to keep going to because I remember the first time I voted, I didn't know that there was a huge sheet of paper and the small one. Now that's like a secret, isn't it? It's like a weird secret that people turn up and go, What is going is this? Is this normal that the papers this big? Why is it this big? No one really talks about it. And whenever people do talk about it in Canberra, it's the clicks. They know all about it, because they live it and breathe it and do it. Why is that not filtering down? And if people have not preferential voted properly in the past, well then what's the result of that? she'll even mean, you know, if you don't, if you're not voting in the correct way for what you might want by accident, then something's something seriously wrong. People only seem to have to talk about how to vote, when it happened when it needs to happen, rather than going learn it every year, learned every year, this is how it is Be it at school kids can tell their parents or parents don't even know. You know. And often that happens, isn't it? Doesn't it kids often are telling they're often educating their own parents about about things. So yeah, an education campaign. Absolutely. So people can get in touch get on the website, get out there. On the night itself. Where will you be? Do you think you're going to be local, with some people with your team? Penny Ackery  30:47  Well, we've been discussing that over the last few weeks. And at one stage, we thought I will make a place in the middle of the electorate and bus people in and then we thought, Well, somebody's got to drive home again, I think the lead, I think what we're going to try to do is have something in Golden, which is the biggest center down here. And then something up Camden way. And because we have so many volunteers up north down south, and I'm not because of the size of the electorate, I'd love to think I could get in and out, it takes us two and a half hours to get from Camden down to here. Don't think that's going to work. But especially because the results are going to come in pretty quick. And it's going to be number one meat anyway. Yeah, we thought it would. So we'll probably have two events, and seeing if we can work at so that we can actually people can stay in their own home state Bundanoon or a Ghanian or borrower, and they can zoom in and join the party. So we've yet to sort of work out the finer details of that. But to unlike in a smaller electorate, where you just have one and everybody pops in and it takes them half an hour to an hour. You know, we don't want people traveling late at night, you know that the polling booths shuts, and then they've got to rush down somewhere. So we're, we're looking at having two venues, and I'll probably stay down this area, I'll probably finish up there and then travel down. But that's the thought at the moment, but trying to see if we can get other people, the volunteers, they can stay in their own homes have their own little parties, but they connected to us. So yeah, I have to get my son in to do a bit of tech work their opinion Julia Zemiro  32:15  of what we all want we all Penny, I've never been more engaged in the election before. I've always been keen. I've always had little election parties and watch don't get me wrong. It's going to be a very interesting, maybe historically significant night, I think the best thing about what's happened, this election is a lot more people are asking questions and wanting to find out how this system works and how we can make it better for all of us. And that is not a glib sentence, I genuinely feel like we need to keep being involved in that. And you've been a very big part in being one of those incredible independents who have a perfectly nice life. And I'm happy doing the things they're doing, but stood up, volunteered to be one of the four was chosen and has worked incessantly since So personally, I want to thank you for just being that extraordinary. Get up and try get up and do and getting finding out so much information and bring it back to us and I have all my fingers crossed for you for the night Penny. It's been a real pleasure meeting you and being part of a little bit of a part of your of your journey. Penny Ackery  33:24  Well thanks, Julia. And I really appreciate the support that you're giving. But all the people around Australia who send me emails and best wishes and let's have a change. So far, so many people around Australia are looking for that change and all the support that you've given and other people have given. I think we were on the road to change. Julia Zemiro  33:42  Alright, fingers crossed. Thank you. Thanks, Julia. Dan Ilic  33:47  What out what up? Jay Z asked who cares? Should boy Jay Z makes noise novedge as a journalism hero, this is Julius Amira asks, Who cares? Julia Zemiro  33:57  I really want to thank penny for speaking with me today. It was actually her birthday. She told me at the end of the call. She had her brothers and family coming to visit for a barbecue that day. Also, Penny's husband, John after a long illness died a couple of weeks ago, and she's continuing with her campaign. And I really think that speaks to her commitment and energy and strength to keep on going. And she says she has said on on on her social media that it's something that he absolutely wanted her to keep going with. So and I think it's important to to tell you that Penny's campaign is crowd funded primarily by people from across the human electorate. She's not accepting funds from climate 200 As many of the Indies are, or get up or of course, she's not accepting anything from oil and gas companies or pharmaceuticals or any other special interest group. I thought it was worth pointing that out. And if you want to help, especially on polling day that's absolutely needed. So go to her website. To me, the whole election period has been a she says not just an election campaign, but an education campaign. Are you shocked? I am. I'm shocked by how many people don't quite know how the system works. And we really hopefully, will change that a bit more in the future because that's crazy. We should know a lot more about how the system works. All right. That's podcast number five. One more to go. CC Transcribed by https://otter.aiA Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFearSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

35mins

16 May 2022

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Educational and Humorous with Brian Nankervis and Julia Zemiro

The Saturday Quiz

They're back again!Julia and Brian are the very well quiz credentialed stars of The Really, Really Good Friday Rockwiz Special, on at Hamer Hall in Melbourne on Good Friday.This is their third appearance on The Saturday Quiz and they really, really couldn't have done better.With questions ranging from music to mathematics to the countries bordering Thailand, they come through with all the answers.https://www.artscentremelbourne.com.au/whats-on/2022/contemporary-music/rockwiz-really-really-good-fridaySupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/the-saturday-quiz. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

35mins

8 Apr 2022

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Julia Zemiro Asks 'Who Cares?' — E4 — Jen Cloher (Ngāpuhi & Ngati Kahu) & Astrid Jorgensen

A Rational Fear

🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/👕 BUY OUR MERCH HERE This is the 4th Episode of the monthly spin-off podcast from A Rational Fear:Julia Zemiro Asks 'Who Cares?'  Each month for the next 3 months on the A Rational Fear podcast feed, Julia interviews change makers, civic leaders, and people who organise their communities and claim their power to discover the secrets to making good things happen. This month Julia chats with two artists who have built extraordinary communities around their craft, how both these artists have shown leadership and helped their respective communities thrive in times of crisis. Jen Cloher (Ngāpuhi & Ngati Kahu) — is a highly respected recording and performing artist living on unceded Wurundjeri land in Naarm (Melbourne) Australia. Cloher is co-founder of Milk! Records (Courtney Barnett, Tiny Ruins, Hand Habits) and I Manage My Music, a masterclass series for self-managed artists to assist self-managed artists with the challenges of creating and releasing music in Australia. “When an artist stands up on a stage, we invite everyone in that room to tap into what it is to be human, which is something politicians are not capable of doing because they're not connected. They've got their own agenda, they're not there to bring us together” — Jen Cloher also we hear from: Astrid Jorgensen — Founding Director of Pub Choir™and its COVID adaptation, Couch Choir. She is also a co-creator of Australia's Biggest Singalong which aired on SBS TV in 2021. “It's not about competing, there is no way to win. All we can do is work together. And the sum is always greater than the parts. If you have honest and optimistic leadership.” — Astrid Jorgensen I hope you enjoy these conversations with two great artists building community and helping other to thrive culturally and financially. Kindest of Regards, Dan Ilic If you enjoyed this please drop us a review on Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/a-rational-fear/id522303261 And subscribe to our Patreon so we can keep making shows like this for you: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear THANK YOU TO Julia, Jen, & Astrid.Rode Microphones,The Bertha Foundation,Jacob Round.Jess Harwood for the amazing artwork.and our Patreon Supporters. Julia Zemiro  0:00  This podcast is supported in part by the birther foundation. Hi, Julia Zemiro Here, I'm recording this podcast on the land of the Gandangara people. Sovereignty was never ceded. We need a treaty. Let's start the podcast, Dan Ilic  0:15  a podcast about politics for people who hate politics. This is Julia Zemiro asks, Who cares? Julia Zemiro  0:24  Well, hello everyone. 2022 Can you believe it? Welcome back to Julia Zemiro asks, Who cares? And you know what it turns out quite a lot of people do. Today I'm talking to two incredible artists who care create and want others to experience that creativity to the both musicians Jen Cloher and Astrid Jorgensen. The Creator and conductor of public choir, but first up, Jen Cloher Ngāpuhi & Ngati Kahu who their most recent self titled album debuted at number five on the ARIA Charts and received rave reviews. And they were crowned double Jays Australian artist of the year. Now on top of that, Jen is a co founder of The Independent Melbourne label milk records and created I managed my music, a masterclass series for self manage artists just to get them on top of what it means to run your own business in music. We talk acting schools, impressing your heroes, all the training and belief that goes into being an artist, longevity, and why more than ever, we need culture to turn to. It's so good to see Jen Cloher  1:32  you. So good to see you. Like truly, Julia Zemiro  1:36  I mean, one of the joys of Rockwell's has been to have these incredible musicians just just a hand spin away from me onstage, and you've given me some of the best moments in my performing life. chancla Jen Cloher  1:49  Oh, that is so sweet. That really actually means a lot because I know you've seen many people come through the hallowed halls. Julia Zemiro  1:57  And what people might not know is my thrill to when Jen was on the desk, answering questions. And just the newest stuff is that of course you do a little biog and you'd been an acting student, you'd gone through NIDA and I was fascinated that there was someone who had trained as an actor, and then had become a musician. And I just think it's an excellent thing. And I know you didn't have a fabulous time there. Not everyone has a fabulous time at acting school. I did I did have a good time at acting school. But I do think that there are things you can learn at those places that are about asking yourself questions about who you are and how you move through the world. Jen Cloher  2:35  Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think if anything, what, what happens go did you go to or did you go to Whopper Julia Zemiro  2:41  CCI? They say, hey, what I love is you've said Whopper because you've obviously assuming I sing well, I don't know VCA I mean audition for NIDA too. And, you know, I got through. I mean, in case people don't realize, you know, you audition and then you might get through to the afternoon where you'll do a your third piece because you've done your first two in the morning. And I'd got through the afternoon I was convinced I was in. I mean, the process isn't finished. And then you have to go back the next week. And I didn't get in. And they tried again the following year, didn't even get through the afternoon. But by then for audition for VCA. And I was so delighted by the audition process at VCA. I was so hooked. I thought on no now I really want this. And then when I got in I was pretty, pretty excited. And it turned out to be a good a good time a good. I think I figured I feel like I learned how to learn. They're Jen Cloher  3:39  beautiful. Yeah, I think like it taught me a lot about the industry. Maybe more so than about who I am. I think some ways I think in some ways I wasn't ready for that school. And I didn't have enough understanding of who I was. And so it really threw me or it threw me. When I was at NIDA there was the head of acting was a man called Kevin Jackson KJ as we affectionately called him and he was actually incredibly well read and was like a kind of dramaturg style kind of actor and he just knew so much about playwriting and playwrights and was one of those people that was like, include the commas don't add words respect the text, you know, the writers intention love to check off you know, one of those guys and I, I sort of like at that I was only 19 I kind of wasn't I was very young but winter fire sort of parental FIDE some of the teaching staff there. And I kind of looked up to him as like this scary Dad and I wanted to impress him and their whole kind of thing there is sort of saying what you're good And then making you do the stuff you're not good at. So they kept throwing me into like, what gowns and making me have these romantic scenes with men and be all gushy and cry and, you know, like, just not my strength. And I felt kind of almost like I was in drag. That's how far away it felt from my experience. Like, like, I was like dressing up in dress to do this thing. Anyway, he gave me this scene, and it like, broke me. And I just got this massive resentment against him. And I remember sort of at the end of, I think it was the end of first year he said, you know, you won't you don't you won't even look at me in the eyes when you walk down the hallway. And I was like, and like, that's how much shame I was carrying around not being good enough for Kevin Jackson. Anyway. I think it was three years ago, four years ago. I'm performing at the Lansdowne hotel upstairs. They had this band room. I think they've closed now which is very sad. And it was with my band. Courtney on guitar bones on bass shallaki on drums, amazing band. We've just been touring all around the world. So we were like on fire. Yeah. And we went out and we just we had two nights the Lansdowne nice little room Pat great energy. Absolutely blazed, felt amazing. Came offstage. And then someone came to the door, I think one of the merch, cute merch crew. And they were like, ah, there's a there's a man here called Kevin, who wants to say hello. And I was like, Julia Zemiro  6:42  I don't know, Kevin. I can. Jen Cloher  6:44  Okay. Who the hell is Kevin? Anyway? This this elderly man, elderly, like early 70s. I would say now, yeah, comes to the door. And it's Kevin Jackson. Oh, my God, my acting teacher. And he'd come along with a couple of friends who like we're gonna go and see Janklow we've got an extra ticket. And he was like, yeah, absolutely. I'll come and see Jen cloth. And he was just like, lit up. He was like, That was incredible. I loved that performance, like, blown away. Right. But here's the great bit. The next I think it was like two days later, I saw this Google Alert come up in my mail, because I have a Google alert on my name, you know, like to know what's been written about me out there. 100% Julia Zemiro  7:35  one that got sent. Jen Cloher  7:37  And there was a he has this website where he reviews like Sydney Theatre Company that did it did. And they're amazing reviews. They're not like some weirdo that's just writing some, you know what I mean? Like, they're really great reviews, but they're not for, you know, for the media, Vine passion project that people read them, you know, people who know read them. And he'd reviewed my gig. Online, never reviewed any music show ever. I was like, wow, rectally theater, and he had reviewed my gig as though it were a theater piece. And he was talking about like, how I embodied things. Like my strength and bla bla bla bla bla, and how Courtney was riding with the guitar, you know, it was like, the most incredible review and he loved it. And it was so beautiful and healing for me, because if there was one thing that KJ said, that stuck with me, from 25 years ago, whenever I was there, he was like, you know, your whole role as an artist is to create a body of work. That is what you will be remembered for a body of work. And it occurred to me after reading this review that he had finally come to see me as an artist that went on to create a body of work. You know, I was presenting my fourth album at that time, and I had stayed consistently with my practice. And it was just like the most beautiful kind of full circle experience to have. And and of course you have it when I would no longer care less what Kevin Jackson would think. Yeah, but to have that kind of reflected back. I think he's there just those milestones in your life as a performer. Julia Zemiro  9:26  That's made me a little bit teary, because I think too, you know, we're talking about what our significance is in society as people who make and when I say the word art, don't run away, don't switch off. Art is lots of things. It's music, it's theater, it's it's cheap theater down the road, in a pub. It's expensive theater that a lot of people can't afford and they could possibly make that cheaper. It's opera, it's dance, it's DJing it's every it's everything that is mapable that you make to watch performance. So when we say they aren't. But when people say you love what you do you your privilege to go and do it, you go well, it can also be a calling. And if you aren't good at it and you love what you do well, why wouldn't you stay with this thing that is bringing you real life experience and making you kind of turned on. So I can turn you on and do something for you to forget your day, or to give you something else to think about or to discover something about yourself. I feel like post COVID What's going to happen next, we didn't get in general, this didn't get job caper? What are we going to do next? Like how do we I'm, I'm now what's the point of making anything if people don't value it, and I mean, from a government level to a crowd level, Jen Cloher  10:45  you know, something that I observed throughout COVID, you know, in my industry, which is the music industry, you know, there's younger artists in my sphere, some of whom I've mentored, or worked with, either from a business angle, or from helping produce their music or whatever, whatever they kind of come to me to assist with. And I produced an album with Alice Skye, an amazing songwriter, we're Gaya, Wemba, Wemba woman from Horsham in Victoria. And also there's another great band called cable ties punk band, and also had chikoo, which is Annika ostendorf, which is a ban on milk records. And they're all kind of around a similar age. On that sort of second, you know, about to launch their second album had like, lined up labels overseas booking agents overseas, going to South by Southwest, you know, it was an it takes many, many, many years to get to that place where you are ready to launch your music into the world. And they're all, you know, like world class artists. And then I just saw everything just collapse and keep collapsing. I remember when we thought COVID was going to go like, we're like, oh, we should probably be back up during by like July, August, when we thought it was going to go for three months. Yeah. And that was a long time. Yeah, I know. I know. So that was kind of, you know, in that last day Julia Zemiro  12:23  window there haven't like, that's not this incredible window, they've lost Jen Cloher  12:26  this opportunity. And all of the money and the support and the time and the planning that goes into that moment. And to build that back up again, is the thing that I think I have concerns about is that you kind of lose these young artists, energetically and financially, because of what they've had to go through. In the mental, you know, like, it was a really, really, really hard time. And I think, you know, most people probably wouldn't know about it, because, you know, they don't have mates that are touring around in bands for the main part, right? Julia Zemiro  13:08  Yeah. When you know, that whole sections of people, certainly in the arts industry, who have had to give it up and get another job completely, two years. I mean, you just can't get by. And even with all the pleading that we did, because that's what we have to always do is plead. When we you know, appeal to the government and said, you know, the flick of a pen, you genuinely could just change this, you could just go, oh, my gosh, artists or whatever, yes. All right, you get it to that didn't happen either. And you have Jen Cloher  13:38  theories as to why oh, great, please begets Well, that's, it's no mistake. That is that is a planned. That is that is you know, you make decisions about who you're going to fund and who you're not going to fund then, as you said, there's a flick of the pen. And I think that, you know, artists are the enemy. Because we think we speak truth to power. And to have to give those people a voice is threatening. And you might be like, Oh, get off it, like as if, but no, I really believe that. We have an immense power we have an we have immense reach. We have audiences, we're influences, you know, wherever that is these days, politics and politicians, particularly the current government cannot totally scared of us. It is not an industry they want to fund. You know, you think of like, anthems like you're the Indies trading, you know, or Ruby hunters down city streets or cold chisels flame trees, or in excess Niger tonight, or what's that great in excess one that's like didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't didn't. Like who hasn't dropped down, I know that and cried in their lounge room at some point in my life, like, we shaped culture, we shaped culture through emotional connection. And that's what they're scared of. Because when an artist stands up on a stage, we invite everyone in that room to tap into what it is to be human, which is something politicians are not capable of doing because they're not connected. They've got their own agenda, they're not there to bring us together. I think that the mystery and appreciation of culture is led by our our cultural leaders, and and our politicians. And, you know, you were speaking before about how artists are viewed in France, and you often hear Australian artists coming home and saying, oh, you know, touring through Europe was amazing, we get to the venue, there'd be home cooked food for soundcheck, you'd play a show, you'd have a meal, like it was an endless stream of good alcohol, but no one got really smashed. And, you know, we were really taken care of. And I think that, that that's embedded in culture, because of the way that culture is viewed. And I think the thing that we need to remember is, and I think this is really, these are big conversations, but you know, it needs to come from our leaders, because we have, you know, it's a colonized nation state. We colonized here, 234 years ago, there was an already existing culture, that we basically built structures that they could not could not access. And, you know, all of the things that went around land stealing, you know, murder, let's just call it what it was. Yeah, it was really happening. Yes. And the issue that I think we have, that's very different to France, where you have Molly air, and the French impressionists, and centuries of culture embedded into the very fabric of existence, that's what culture is, we shouldn't call it art, its culture. Yeah. Because we have come from so many different places all around this world. And some of us have come with culture, that many of us have forgotten what that culture was, we've had to assimilate. You know, like, a lot of migrants were encouraged to assimilate whatever that means. We've given up identities to become white. There's many things that have happened. And what we find ourselves in is easy, you know, this so called multicultural country, but actually, a lot of people don't know, their culture, or where they've come from. And so the actual kind of colonized version of culture here is 200 years old, and it doesn't, whatever was it, you know, it's not like, we know, you know, like, as, as British people back, you know, back in the empire know, Shakespeare and the Bard, and, you know, there's this Wordsworth and you know, there's a sense of who we are as a people, and we have marmalade and Australians, as a people. But when you kind of break it down, it's like, is it a barbecue? What, what, how are we? You know, and I think until we actually ask those questions, and kind of like, maybe realize that we don't quite know who we are culturally. We sort of don't value it. But this is the beautiful thing is, I really believe each and every person has the ability, unless they were adopted, and they don't know who their birth parents are. And my heart is heavy for those people. Has not just the ability but the privilege to find out who they are and where they came from. And here's the other really interesting thing. Do you know what, guess a couple of languages in the world that are teetering on the edge of extinction? Julia Zemiro  19:41  Well, most of indigenous languages I would assume, Jen Cloher  19:45  is bang on do you know which ones they are? No, Celtic, and Gaelic, what? And I would say jority of white Australians in this in this country. hail from either Celtic or Gaelic roots in some capacity. And I just sort of think like, you actually have the opportunity to go and connect with a language that your ancestors once spoke, and find out through ancestry.com, email that relative in I don't know, some remote part of Ireland, like, go and do some work to find out who you are and where you came from and know something about your culture, and how you came to be here. And if you were settlers, and if you were colonizers, and there's a dark past, that's okay. No, you didn't make it happen. But you are responsible for the future, you get to determine that future. And I really, really wholeheartedly believe that everyone has the opportunity to reclaim who they are. Because I don't actually believe first of all that Australia exists. It's an it's a concept, because there was already a country here, much like Europe, you know, full of different nations, I don't think French and Italian people see themselves as the same people, and neither did the 500 Plus language groups that we hear on this country. Absolutely. But I think that the issue that we have is that we've tried to make up a culture that never existed. And that's not to say that there isn't a making and weaving of that culture. But unless we know where we came from, and who our people were, how can we create anything that we feel connected to. And the reason I've been learning today on Maori and, you know, involving myself and taking part in cultural practice, which is available to me here in Nam In Melbourne, is because the more that I know who I am, and how I am connected, and the line of amazing people that I have come through in their connection to land, the more I care, more I care about you, the more I care about the river down the end of the street, the Mary Mary Mary Creek, the more I care about community, you know, it stops just being about me, my great, great grandmother, Martha to pay would have only have spoken to real Maori, and she was born in 1860. My great, my great grandmother, who Dr. topwater, who was born in 1890, would have spoken today Omar Maori at home and English out in the world. And my mother, Dorothy earch, klore, who was born in 1930, only spoke English. So that's how quickly how fast those things move just in you know, indigenous people living you know, in a colonized nation. But you think about you come from another country, you land here and I can identify with that I'm like, I kind of woke up one day Julia and went, I don't know who I am. I was sitting making a record with an indigenous woman, Alice sky, who owned it. And it occurred to me, I was like, come through a whole lot of Indigenous women. And I've never, I've never felt I just didn't feel like I, I thought I had to earn it or something like I didn't have any right to claim my bloodline. And I had sort of a lot of shame around not knowing the language or not knowing the culture. But to end my little rant. This is the I think the greatest and deepest healing is not to go and learn all about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. That's great. Absolutely respect their culture, take an interest. Go and find out who you are. That's where that's where the connection begins. Because until we know who we are, never know anyone else in the way that they need to be known and Julia Zemiro  24:05  seen. But you're someone who's always been very inquisitive. That's why I like talking to you. You're someone who really is curious. And another thing you are curious about as you are with this now is one point you asked yourself as an independent musician, how in the world are other people doing this? How are they getting by? And this ties into this idea to have you know, his artistry is music is theater important in a society because you know what, it's not an easy life to start off with. Even if you've been to a drama school, there's no guarantee you'll get work when you get out. And we've musicians sort of finding their way you observed your own practice and you're thinking, this is hard. Is it hard for anybody else? And you started a management course if you like, and I love that it's called I'm manage my music. There's no, there's no, you won't get it. There's no confusion around it. It's I manage my music In a nutshell, uh, you know, how did that come about, and I and just briefly tell us, you know, I love how you approach it to how the first day is a little bit tough. Jen Cloher  25:10  I started those workshops because I was struggling, I was in debt, I had just released my second album, it hadn't had the same fanfare as my first album in that hadn't had a whole lot of airplay on Triple J. And I had just assumed a bunch of things that like, oh, sweet, you know, I'll just go here, and there'll be people better and, you know, not the case, you know, like that national broadcaster, had a huge effect as far as bringing people into rooms on my first album. And then when they didn't get behind the second album in the same way, what I quickly discovered was, you know, rooms were half full. I don't wasn't because my band was any worse, or that the music wasn't any good. I think it was really just a wake up call. That, you know, unless you have certain people or things, you know, in your court, it's really hard work. And so, you know, I often share that, like, oh, that year, I'd made $100,000 in my music. And I'd spent 110. And you know, that wasn't living extravagantly. Like when you think about touring around Australia was five people in a band, you're paying them, you're paying all of the engineers, you're paying flights, accommodation, higher cars, wages, you paying for publicity radio, in every state, you know, like that money, and we weren't staying in like five star hotels, I like bunk rooms in a backpack, because Julia Zemiro  26:44  I can testify, I can testify, this lady's not a liar. Jen Cloher  26:49  This is the truth ran. And so I realized that unless I started to look at it as a business and find out what other people were doing, I was going to not be able to do it anymore. And so really, I managed my music was inviting other artists to come in and share about their experience, how have you done it. And this is a really sort of interesting, but also very sad thing is that many of them were in debt. And if they weren't, if they weren't in debt, their managers were, which is the same thing. Because at the end of the day, as you know, we live in this massive continent. You know, that's quite expensive, long distances to travel with a relatively small population, when you think about the landmass. So we're not even as big as the greater population of Tokyo. That's the whole of Australia. I think, like, many, many years of experience helped me to distill what I think are really important, very basic, but important things. The first thing that I always say is like, get a separate bank account. Oh, now I know that sounds insane to some people. But I just had one bank account, and everything came in and everything went out of it. I wasn't, there was no business separation. So how can you have a business if you don't actually know what it's earning? What it's what it's, you know, what the expenditures are? If you're not, there's no contingency plan or savings on knowing those outgoings that are going to happen every month, or whatever it is. So that's the first thing that I did was I opened a separate bank account, which was Jen Clow music, and this was like, I don't know, 12 years ago. And then the next thing was, don't go into debt. What crazy, crazy said than done. Yeah. So cut my credit card, except for those ones that you can have that are like debit credit card, so you can't spend the bank's money. Cut it up. Oh, yeah. And because I now have this bank account, that was Janklow music, if I wanted to go and make a record and only had $3,000. And I wanted to spend six, I had to go out and find that money. And I couldn't borrow it from my partner or my friends or my family. And the beautiful thing is that it frayed those relationships up Oh, yeah, because I wasn't scheming and manipulating and trying to work out how I could milk my parents for like 2000 like tragic. That's the kind of stuff we come to when we're desperate. So it freed those relationships up. And the other thing that I think is really, really, really important that I think a lot of people don't realize is that the most important people in your career as an artist are other artists, and not managers. They're not booking agents, that actually other artists and the reason why is that that is the community that you will look to during the really tough times like COVID You know, like, those are the people that you can call up and commiserate with you can collaborate with that. lend you things because they know that it's tough that will help you out that will go on the road with you. They're actually the most important people in your life. And I think if you can get community and be involved with the community, and not debt, foundational things that I think then help you to go out and actually have a crack at it, and just be where you are, it's also Julia Zemiro  30:23  being you know, I think sometimes artists want to be artists and not worry about the nuts and bolts of the things that put you together. But I just think you can get a bit interested in kind of excited about those bits to like I, I had a $7,000 debt because of acting school. And the third and one of the first things I got out of the blue in my first year out was a commercial for sure natural, ultra thin Maxi shields, pads. And it was a very fun ad actually was directed by a woman on film, it was quite an exciting couple of days, I won't lie. And it was a good little script. And it had a bit of a laugh at itself. But I made $10,000. And I was spending and in our own mind, I hadn't spent Jen, I was going away. And I had this accountant who said you really should pay off that hexed it. And like, really? Now my parents were telling me this, this was the guy who was doing our tax. And he said I couldn't My best advice to you would be if you could not miss it. And you'll still have $3,000 to do something with. And it was the best advice ever. Because right from the beginning as a struggling actor straight out of school. That debt was wiped. Jen Cloher  31:43  Yeah, look, I think. Yeah, I mean, in the 10 years that I've been running, I manage my music and I actually wrapped the last one we did was in November last year, and it was for no shortage of people coming through the doors still. You know, like it was packed. And and great speakers, Julia Zemiro  32:01  did you get different people to come in and talk to them? And yeah, Jen Cloher  32:05  I mean, I, the series that I did during COVID was just online master classes, looking at one aspect of releasing music. And yeah, people people came in thick and fast. They were up for it. Julia Zemiro  32:19  Does it that shows in energy, though, doesn't it that shows like people are hopeful and that people is that makes me feel good that there are people who aren't going, I'm not gonna let this beat me. I'm going to keep going and get out there and get some information because you know, what's next? Who knows? I mean, look, you know, it was particularly it affected your, your your work and my work because I still tour with Rockwell's. And we had two national tours that were canceled two years running. Because that is just run by Renegade and the people who originally made the show, there's no other money that helps out and there's just no way they could have covered anything like a border closure and having to accommodate a whole bunch of people. I do feel slightly let down that there weren't more voices clamoring and saying, let's change this because I still think people think that making art, again, don't run away, come back, come back. I don't just mean things on the wall. I mean, anything that you enjoy, you know that it comes easily that it's quick, but it's painless. All of that there's still a kind of a disconnect about that. And look, I'll bore anybody that asks how we make the different shows I do just to clarify the just the the misinformation they have about it. Yeah, look, I Jen Cloher  33:37  think it's, you know, look, I if you said to me, what does the chemical engineer do? Honestly, I wouldn't have the foggiest. So it's no surprise that people don't really understand the nuts and bolts of our industry and really part of it. I guess part of the craft is to make it look easy, isn't it? So? If it looks and feels easy, you're doing something right. Julia Zemiro  34:09  What's next for you then Jen like you are, you know, you co founder milk records as a way to will take back control really, and have your own label and it's been such a success. It's so extraordinary. I managed my music. Four albums, a fifth with the beautiful the stringer and Mayor Dyson, amen. I mean, you're just incredible Trejo what's next what's making you excited about the future because I must say I'm a fairly half glass full person. And I was okay for most of COVID in many ways. I'm very lucky I had a home and a partner and and I didn't, everyone was all right around me. But just in the last couple of months, I had a bit of a deep dive, just thinking I don't know if anyone's really listening to anything I think people have tuned out as to what's important and what's going on. And just recently got optimistic again, possibly because I've been back at work and I'm hanging with people who want to make things and are experts at what they do and experts, camera people and sound women and, and directors, and we're back in our good zone making good stuff for people. So what's getting you hopefully a bit excited about what's next? whatever's next? Jen Cloher  35:29  Yeah, well, I mean, you know, similarly, I felt very, I think a lot of us really felt our good fortune and our privilege through COVID. In that, like yourself, you know, I had a really, I had secure housing, I had financial assistance, because I'd set up my business in a way that made job keeper accessible. And I was in a writing phase. So when I write I generally stay home and, and work. So I was writing and demoing and then through between lockdowns would go and record. So I've recorded my fifth album, and we're currently mixing it. And I'm so excited, like, I feel really creatively, probably the most sort of open and free and excited about making music and performing. I feel like I've really fallen in love with it in a new way. I like it, I think it's because of that thing that I was saying, like taking the time to understand more about who I am. And where I come from, means that the way that I locate and situate myself in my music is much more meaningful. There's a connection there that I've never felt before. And it feels very powerful and embodied. And he like I think there's a real healing in the music as well because of my own journey of reconnection and what what I have to offer through through that. So I've got all of these projects around the album at the moment, some of its making work back home in Aotearoa, hopefully in June, if Omicron doesn't hobble us, connecting with other Maori who are making work, and just generally artists in general film projects, maybe a cheeky little podcast. Julia Zemiro  37:32  Ah, I mean, I'll be listening. I'll be listening. Oh, Jen Cloher  37:37  I love a yawn. I love the rose. So here we are. But I feel really reinvigorated and excited about creating work. And I just feel so fortunate, you know, that I that I never stopped even when it's been tough. It's never been easy. You know, like, I've always had to be there pushing it along. And no one's ever kind of stepped in and gone. Oh, here go, Jen. You know, like, we're gonna do it all for you to take a chill pill. Does anyone even say chill pill anymore? Julia Zemiro  38:11  Do just, I guess to go. Also, I guess for artists too, out there. You know, it's sort of remembering that I do remember. One great thing about VCA about acting school was at the end of the three years, they said don't wait for people to call you for work. And it was very much a school about making your own work. They had had an actual course about it. So but even as US actors, only actors in inverted commas. The idea was, you know, no one's gonna offer you work. So you'll have to go and make it yourself. And what I love is and can we finish on this final story, which is, you'd been sitting there watching some lovely musicians do a version of The Beatles, a Beatle show? And you thought I Yeah, and you thought there must be there must be another an album or some extraordinary female performer that we could do. Tell us about? Coming up with the idea and executing it. Jen Cloher  39:09  Yes. Well, look, that was a beautiful moment in my life. Yes, having just watched another one of those kind of Beatles cover shows doing the White album that was to do the White Album. I was like, This is so boring. And it's packed full of people paying good coin to watch this really boring. Presentation. Just got to be honest, it was middle of the road. And and I was like, Yeah, God damn, I want to you know, like, what's a classic album by a woman like we need to like bring something to the stage that just isn't the same old Rolling Stones, Beatles, whatever it is loving but whatever. And actually do I love them? I actually don't love them that much. Julia Zemiro  39:56  But you know, it's like it's like going to the theatre companies again and going Are we really going to do Shakespeare again like fine, but I mean, could we just do something not Shakespeare? It's this it's the classics as it were. And they classic because they're classic. I go, well, sometimes it's interesting to appreciate classics in opposition to something else, or alongside something else, or, you know, or maybe something else. Jen Cloher  40:21  I just just as a side note, like a lot of people like, oh, have you seen that Beatles documentary that goes for eight hours on Disney, like, you got to watch it. It's amazing. Lauren. I was like, okay, so I went in, I was like, oh, it's amazing of must watch it. And I had many recommendations. I think I got through an hour of it. And it's not because I have some like, you know, problem with the Beatles. I'm not like some jaded old person that hates the Beatles. Like I'm up for a good show. But I was like, literally just walk in. Like these four young dudes who were like the richest people in the world at that point in time, who'd no longer toured because they didn't need to smoking cigars, and having cocktails delivered to them while they just wrote songs. I'm like, I write songs all the time. I don't need to see other people do it and be waited on hand and foot while they do. Julia Zemiro  41:14  And yet there's a fascination for it. So I go, Well, you're all fascinated by the creative process. You're all fascinated about how it happens. But those eyes were loaded and didn't have to be worried. Could you maybe be fascinated about others who are justice, who are struggling and are just as want to get that talent going? And unless they write it and can perform it, and you can see it, and you can have the relationship? You know, there's there's an audience for everyone, and we just need to find them. Anyway. Jen Cloher  41:44  Back to it, Julia. I know the mission you're on and I'm fully I hear you're okay for it. Thank you. So anyway, beetles aside, I came home that night, and I was like, I know. Patti Smith's horses. And then I looked on Google, I Googled it, and I was like, No way next year, it turns 40 years. 20 year commemoration of Patti Smith's the horses. I then assembled adelaider myself, Courtney Barnett, Gareth Lee, the art of the drones and tropical storm and, and a great band. And we we put on a couple of shows at the Melbourne Town Hall, which has that massive organ. And I think we did a matinee and evening show for Melbourne Festival, and they both sold out. So it's like 4000 people came through that afternoon to watch Patti Smith's horses. But the cutest thing was I got to meet Patti, when she was out playing her shows here for horses. And it was maybe like a year later in 2017, I think because we did 2016. And her her tour manager kind of got myself Courtney walked down, like all through the little holes behind the Art Center. And kind of on the wires like oh my god, I'm about to make Holly Smith. Like, that's really something you know, like, I feel a bit nervous. I thought we're just going to be like in your backstage Green Room. Everyone having a few drinks. Hey, Patti, here's Jen and Courtney Oh, Hi, how you going love your work. And then you go on. You know, but we come to this stage door opens the door to this wardrobe room or whatever. What do you call it changer. And Patty's just, they're just sitting there cause she's just formed horses on her own. Like we did it with like six performance. And we just had an audience with Patti Smith for like, 40 minutes or something just myself, Courtney and Patti. And you know, like, what do you say? I was just like, Oh, thanks so much for riding horses. But then she was like, oh, yeah, that was great. You know, some friends sent me some videos of y'all doing it and Unknown Speaker  44:11  yeah, good stuff. Julia Zemiro  44:12  She saw some of it. She saw some of it on she loved it. Oh, my God gave Jen Cloher  44:17  it the thumbs up Patti gave production of forces the thumbs up. So that was a super cute moment. Julia Zemiro  44:25  It's like, it's a bit like the Kevin Jackson moment to where you like, you have this experience and they come back to go I witnessed it and saw it. You know, it's a real, I wish I wish audiences to realize how much belief it takes to be a performer a belief that you keep moving forward and you keep finding new things. And every now and then something just works. And you savor it, you really savor it, and you remember it becomes this terrific memory that you'll think about when you're 18 you can't move anymore, and it'll be this time and COVID reminded me of that. I just thought COVID felt like this is Retirement is I've got to make more memories. I've got to make more memories for others. I want to make sure you remain like that, at least why it's something to think about while we were stuck and gone. Well, if I never tour again, I remember that great time when we did this. And that, I guess to what I love about that horses story. I know, I've heard you speak about because you had an acting background. And you sing as well, there was a moment where the two of them came together. And when you performed in that show, and you really felt like the two streams connected, and that's such a magic thing to happen. For a performer when you go, Oh, I do have this extra stuff in my kit. That is like performing a monologue. Um, and I mean, that's so petty. I mean, that's that she absolutely is what she does, and so theatrical Jen Cloher  45:47  and so theatrical. But here's the thing as well, I mean, I think it was said, you know, many times over, you know, COVID of the past few years, we're still in it, is what did we turn to? Oh, you know, aside from your food, alcohol and our parents, we turned to literature, poetry, beautiful film and television, music podcasts, like we turned to culture to fill the cup, you know, when we couldn't be living, you know, that bigger sort of out out in the world life. And so even if we might like to think that we don't value culture we do. It's embedded, you know, it's embedded in our very souls, like, everyone looks to it, whether they know it or not to connect with the truth of who they are. Julia Zemiro  46:45  Jen, onwards and upwards. So good to talk to you. And, and I can't wait to hear the next album. Astrid Jorgensen  46:55  coming. It's coming. Julia Zemiro  46:59  So great to hear from Jen. Sometimes it is good to meet your heroes. Dan Ilic  47:03  What up Jay Z asked who cares? She boy Jay Z make some noise. No bad Jay Z. Jewelers, Amira. This is Julius Amira Julia Zemiro  47:12  asks, Who cares? Our second guest is Astrid Johansson. She is an Australian vocalist, conductor and composer. And she's the founder and director of pub choir. She radiates intelligence and creativity and simply wants every one of us to get creative to Hello Astrid. Astrid Jorgensen  47:32  Julia, I'm obsessed with you. I real Daisy. Julia Zemiro  47:36  Yeah, I mean, the original Josie. Obviously, Astrid, so delighted to be talking to you. You blew my tiny mind when I saw you do pop choir. And when I was the artistic director of the Adelaide cabaret festival, you were the first thing on this, but we wanted to get because what you do for those people who don't know about public choir? Tell us what is it? Astrid Jorgensen  47:58  Pump choir is essentially what it says on the box. It's people singing together at the pub, nice and rowdy and fun. But on another level, Trent Dalton, the wonderful Brisbane author said to me, once of his experience of coming to pub choir and experience it himself said that it is the sound of people agreed. I think it's such a beautiful way to describe any choir, it is just regular people who might not know each other at all, who might disagree with each other on so many facets of life, all coming together and sharing one singular goal for an evening. And that's what pod choir is we learn one song at the show. You don't have to prepare anything. You don't have to be good at singing, you can be truly awful. But you get to come along and we will carry each other in the crowd. And at the end of the show. We perform what we have learned from each other. It sounds very cerebral, but it's mostly me insulting a crowd of people yelling at them. But it's fun. It's awesome. It's wonderful. Julia Zemiro  48:56  That's a beautiful description. What I love, of course, is that Astrid, you had your first singing lesson and you were so excited by the tools that you were given in that first lesson to go. Oh, right. You got excited. You wanted to share that with other people. You went teaching. And it didn't quite go. As he thought. Look, Astrid Jorgensen  49:16  I retired quite quickly from a short not illustrious career of one year. I tried high school teaching because I found music lessons like magic. I had always been good at music. Like as as long as I can remember I've been able to hear songs with a lot of detail in my head. And I thought that was something everyone could do. But it turns out not so I thought I'll go get some lessons when I was 16. I had some singing lessons and I thought it was like a learning a spell. Like you can use your body or you have to buy anything. You just use your body. Your voice has lived there all along and if you use it in the right way you can make people feel complex emotions, like you genuinely feel like you're casting a spell over people just by kind of speaking at them. And so I thought it was like the most illuminating experience of my life that you can control this instrument. It's not just like this wild beast, and either it's good or it's not, you can actually learn to harness your voice. And I thought, Well, surely everybody will be as excited as me when I explain this to them. But it turns out that high school children were not. I tried again on my own, but I think I'm far too chaotic for the classroom. So I kind of retreated. And I really started to focus on singing in the community, community choir stuff really got me going. Julia Zemiro  50:41  And I mean, at one point, you were organizing seven different choirs driving hundreds of kilometers to facilitate that. But something kind of kicked in again, with that a little bit. It was like, hang on. It's a lot of kids still on teaching a lot of kids who still sometimes don't want to be there, even though they're good at it. And sometimes a lot of white people, which was great, and you want, you come from a complete different background, and you're thinking, Astrid Jorgensen  51:07  Well, I mean, I guess the realization I had was yes, it's incredible to share this magic with people about singing. But yeah, the populations that I were working with didn't reflect me. It's not that there's anything wrong with any of those things you've mentioned. But I mean, I come from a diverse background. I was 20 years old, this young, energetic female, and I was walking into what felt like retirement situations where I it was confusing to me, because I think that choir is the most wonderful, accessible equalizing experience that is so easy. Like, I think it's really become this very cerebral highbrow thing, and we sing these like, you know, difficult works from the past that actually choirs just, as Trent said, people agreeing and I really wanted to find a way to convince people like me that it was worth doing. And so that's how pub choir was born. Because I was like, what attracts young people that want to just have a good time. Obviously, alcohol. I'm not spoiling anything, but just turns out if you take the choir rehearsal that's been happening the whole time. But you just put it in a nice, fun, licensed venue. So people will come. Julia Zemiro  52:24  The original social media posts you put out read, calling all shower singers pub choir is acquire for you. Bring your mates bring your nan, just don't bring your kids because it's a pub, no sheet music, no auditions, no solos, no commitment, no worries, we'll teach you one song in three part harmony in 90 minutes, and then we'll never do it again. Come and let out some yields $5 entry. Now look, that is one of the best bloody ins I've ever read, like you just want to go. And the most beautiful part is we'll never do it again, is this moment in time. It's not about keeping it. And even though you do film it so people can have it as something to watch later. Of course, they put their phones away, and they completely get into what you're doing. Now, when I first saw it and was part of it. I thought it was just going to be everyone just singing everything. But now you actually do teach a three part harmony. And it's like, you kind of teach up rather than teach down. You sort of go i I'm going to challenge you a little bit. And you can see people Well, you told me you can see people sometimes they get do they get frustrated does the penny drop? Astrid Jorgensen  53:34  I think it's more of a doubt. It's like the road to Damascus comes along and they do not believe and I yell at them until they do you know, I think I'm like, I mean, a big part of it is that it's honest. So I think a lot of people who come along know that they sing out of tune. There's no point in me, but cajoling them and lying to them. We don't need leaders to lie to us. Julia Zemiro  54:01  They do That's right. Astrid Jorgensen  54:03  Yeah, we fall couldn't receive another lie. Thank you. And so we we crave honesty and the people that come along, they know themselves. I don't hear anyone's individual voice. But everyone who comes along has an understanding of what their voice is like. And for a lot of people they don't want you to tell them. And so beautiful. You've nailed it because they probably haven't they probably miss every night along the way. came in like too high, too sharp, and missed everything. But what I do at pub wire is I try and just be honest with them but optimistic. I think I think those are my two main kind of goals for the evening. I will be honest with the people there. I'll say well, you've absolutely missed every note. But thank you for being honest about it. Because now I can help you. I mean I say all the time of the show if you just step back and wait for the time where you have come to a perfect understanding of what you need to Do you will have missed the whole show, it would be much more efficient use of your time if you just sang what you think you should be thinking. And if it goes wrong, I'll help you. I'll let you know. And then we go from there. And we all go on this journey together. And we arrive at a destination together, as long as it starts from a place of honesty and optimism, because I believe in them. Julia Zemiro  55:21  It's, it's a metaphor for living your bloody life as well, because it's diving in. And it's it's also permission to fail and permission to make a weird sound and permission to try again, because you rehearse it a few times, you get another go at it, like it's not the end on a meal. Now, performers might know that already, we know that's part of how we learn and all that. But all these people are not performers in general. And the look on people's faces, when they leave the sound that you actually get them to make. I mean, I just tear up every time it's just, I just can't go there, go there, I've got to do anything important afterwards, because I just get so it's so beautifully emotional. And as you say, normally often choirs are about the right sound. And there is no right sound. It's about making the sound together. And as Trent says, agreeing, when I was at acting school, at VCA, we didn't do a lot of singing, it was part of the curriculum, but there wasn't a lot of it. And at one point, she did divide the class into two and you were going which half of mine and I realized that was in the better half, which was no fun for the half of the other half, you know, so they felt like they were kind of not great at it. And we got stuff that was more challenging, but they weren't good singers in this particular year. So why not challenged them. But what she really meant to say to before she divided was that she didn't believe that every single could act, but she felt that every actor could sing and could communicate a song by acting by feeling by telling the story of it. And let's face it, you know, if we all judged every musician by the voice and Australian Idol standards, there would be no Tom Waits, there'd be no Dylan, there'd be no scratchy voices and interesting voices. And yeah, Astrid Jorgensen  57:12  I mean, I think that the music is confusing in that way. And very challenging in that way. Because input does not necessarily equal output. You know, you could you could do everything technically correct. But that doesn't mean that your voice moves people. And you could miss most of the notes and have a really gravelly voice. And yet something is awakened in the people that listen to you. So it is an absolutely sick of artistic pursuit, being presented as a like, there is an end point, there is no finishing point to arts, you cannot complete music, go and study and then be like, Well, I've done it all. There's no there's no line, it just goes on and on. And if all of it is subjective, and I'm sick of this judgment, this laden with judgment idea about the arts, you know, your voice might be out of tune all of the time. But that's, that's a subjective criteria, you know, and I just think the one fact about voices is that every single one is unique to the user. Like, you know, you can buy pianos from the factory, but you can't buy a voice. Every single one is unique to the user. And that's worth celebrating. Even if it sucks. All the notes are on Julia Zemiro  58:24  the new platform papers is a great volume of stories about arts and what's going on in this particular one is what future for the arts in the post pandemic world indeed. And in it you right, we all deserve to feel joy, even if we are not the best is that the man show when you when you look out onto that crowd when you're filling up a huge room of you know, up to I mean, I've got it here. 3000 people you did Truly, Madly, Deeply that great Savage Garden song 3000 people, there must have been awesome. Astrid Jorgensen  58:53  You will think about the odds for like, 3000 regular people, there's no auditions as if all of them are going to be good. I mean, is if any of us are the best at anything. Yeah, I mean, really, let's be honest about it. There's billions of people in the world, the odds are not good for you, you know, to be the best at anything. We all exist in this vast apparatus, you know, like, the sooner you can accept that. The reality of that, letting go of the idea that we are striving to climb this piece of shit. Yeah, like if there's, there's just the odds are so poor, they're against us. And so I feel like the moment that you can accept that we exist in this vast average is so freeing. You are free now to enjoy an experience. Of course, you're not the best. When you sing, you are not the most beautiful sound in the world. And that's okay. Like, you know, I get a lot of people who come along before the show before they've had their conversion. And they say things like, you know, or absolutely tone deaf. I could never sing a note right. And I know there's no hope for me and I sort of think to myself What are you making that basing that comparison on? Are you listening to literal famous singers and then deciding that there is a chasm between you and them? Of course, like, you know, Beyonce wouldn't exist unless she was remarkable. And to compare our voice with what we hear what this curated sound that we hear everywhere on the radio, and like, you know, after the producer is ironed everything out and after everything is so schmick and clean, and then to listen to that and think, Oh, my voice isn't that good? I mean, of course, it's not come on, get off your horse, you're crazy. You know, like, you know, just accept that your voice is unique. And that is enough, Julia Zemiro  1:00:38  you make the comparison with sport where you say, you know, we know that we can't be we're not going to be at the Olympics. So that doesn't stop us playing soccer on the weekend with friends. It doesn't stop us playing tennis with friends, it doesn't stop us doing a bit of a dance class or not being great at it, but you just love doing it with singing somehow. Is it because it's emotional? Is it because it taps it because someone in someone in the family has obviously said to them, you can't sing? I hear that all the time. Because with rock waves, we just do some scene sometimes. And we challenge them. And they like, I know, I'm the one in my family who can't sing. But is it because singing is emotional to its other activities don't bring out emotion like that maybe Astrid Jorgensen  1:01:17  there's probably lots of factors for each individual. But I reckon, overall, I think singing feels like a personal failure, because it came from your body. You know, with them, I also learned violin and piano was a young kid, and you press keys, and you look at the string and you you know, you can see physically what you're working with. With singing. It's all internal. It's very personal. And so when things go wrong, you did it made the noise and it feels like it's such a personal failure. But I mean, I would counter that by saying that much like sports singing is a physical activity. I mean, I wish it was more physical. But I mean, I'm, it's a physical activity as if there's anything about your voice that you're embarrassed about, or that you don't like there is a physical solution, because all noise is created with your own body. So you know, if your voice you feel is too annoying, you know, you can learn to change tone of voice. And I'm not suggesting that you do that. But this idea that it's like this fixed property of our bodies is not true. And you know, I think sport does a lot better of a job of convincing society that it's okay to be average, you know, like, anyone at any physical level can find like a little kicks AFL team or a night indoor netball team, and you can be the worst and super uncoordinated and someone will have you but what do you do if you're really bad at violin? You know? I think yeah, the arts has this, this problem with kind of prestige and competition, whereas I think, you know, pop choir, at least I mean, I'm not trying to make it a big self promotion thing. But I think we have given people a space to be truly awful. And to have the loveliest time because it is okay, if there are enough of us helping each other, we can celebrate the vast average. And and I think that's what people want. In a post COVID world. Like I think all of us have spent a lot of time at home, reflecting on what is actually important. And I think comfort and happiness have really risen to the top. You know, I've noticed some of my corporate friends, they're like, they're not interested in wearing heels in a power suit to work. The way that we look has nothing to do with our performance. You know, like people are looking to work at home and they're brushing their hair less, even though this is their meeting, and they got a kid on the hip, and we are looking for comfort and we are looking for experience and I think anything we can do to offer people that especially in the arts, you know, bring it on. Julia Zemiro  1:03:49  It's our job. Now you are an artist you had a you're making a quite a good living I am assuming with pop choir, you were doing incredible shows so many extraordinary people involved along the way. You know, Mariah Carey got involved at one point and said how fabulous that was, it was going all around the world. And then COVID hits. Now any of us that work with a live audience, all of a sudden that work literally disappeared? How did it play out for you? Astrid Jorgensen  1:04:17  Well, it was it was a couple of touch and go brown moments there. But do you know what is incredible and I do not take this for granted. I understand that this is not everyone's story. And in fact, I think it's the exception is that we thrived throughout COVID which is unbelievable, considering that choir was often illegal during the last few years. Like my business has been illegal, Julia Zemiro  1:04:46  I'm safe, unsafe, someone Astrid Jorgensen  1:04:49  safe unsafe, you know you can share it the funny but once it's a song, you know those particles. So anyway, what actually happened was I reflected deep more deeply upon what happened Quite was about anyway. So yes, it was going very well. And I do grieve some of those opportunities that I think we might have lost forever, perhaps. But I had plenty of time for introspection and to consider what it is that I'm trying to do anyway, was it to fill a pub with 1000s of people? No, that's not what started pub quiet to begin with. The idea was offering people the opportunity to make art averagely and to feel safe and to enjoy the experience. And I don't, I came to the realization that we didn't even need to be near each other, we could still have that experience. And that's how couch choir was created. It's the same idea. You know, everyone is invited, no matter what your voice is, like you are invited to come and be part of this experience. But rather than it being live, people would send their performances as a video to me and my team and we would edit them together. And I think that is extraordinarily brave of all the people who are a part of it because a pub quiet just get lost in the crowd. Just go Stan, you're very loud person and blended. They'll cover any noisy mic. But at couch choir, you said your individual performance to us. And what happened was a business group, because like I was saying before, I think of all of the terrible things that have happened in the past two years. one silver lining is that I think COVID has helped us all to reframe what we consider important and I think people were sitting at home and they wanted connection, they wanted to feel like part of something bigger than themselves. Community is important to us, we have all agreed community is important. And I think people also felt this desperate need to feel okay with what they have. And we'd already been offering that was pub quiet. But we've kept quiet was an even more overt decision for people to make, I will sing by myself. And I may miss every single note. And then I will accept that and I will send it to someone else. And I trust that they will do something good with it. And so our, our audience literally doubled over over the last little while. And so I'm very grateful for this. I don't know, I guess it's kind of reiterated for me why we started in the first place, which was Yeah, to give people a safe place to create and singing is still real, no matter what infectious thing might be going on in the world. Singing always is with you inside your body. And you can cast the magic spell anytime you want. Oh, Julia Zemiro  1:07:33  I love it. I love listening to you Astrid, it just, I mean, honestly, I would just really encourage anybody, if you've never had singing lessons, just pick a teacher for six lessons just for six and just see what you feel and what comes out of it. And there is some amazing teachers out there. They really, really, really are. It's so it's so worth doing. So I have to say, though, when COVID here, then we had a lot of time to think about all of these things and job caper came out. And all of a sudden, it seemed that the artistic community wasn't going to be able to get any of that. And again, maybe with the flick of a pen we could have have that changed. I was surprised how I expected more members of the public or punters to kind of go Yeah, that's terrible. They did a bit online etc. But there's no real change to that upheaval. Or maybe there was maybe more people spoke up than I knew, but nothing was really done about it. And again, it was very difficult for the artistic community not to feel completely ignored, and unheard and unnecessary. Until you need cheering up until you need to commute to communicate with someone in short, you need some amazing music at your you want to get a band in and do something. And I'd be interested to know what your view is of that in terms of what are we I think sometimes maybe we are not as good at explaining and sharing with audiences. What it is that we do, the work that it takes, and to maybe stop that idea of going well, you lucky that's why you do it. I find that you kind of cross this nice some divide between you are a professional musician and singer. But you engage people who are not and you make a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful thing. Astrid Jorgensen  1:09:21  I mean, my approach is the more that you can invite people into the experience, the more appreciation that they have for what involves so I mean say with sport. I had tennis lessons very briefly as a kid and I was actually beaten in my only match I haven't played with by girl with one arm and us you know, thrashed six low and I thought to myself tennis song hard. But then when I go and watch tennis on the telly, I have this this understanding of of how difficult it would be to be ash body, but how much skill is involved. And until we in the arts community offer people the experience of music making in my instance, they may not be able to come to a place of appreciation of how much it involves to become a master of your craft, to go and see an incredible musician and to understand that this is not just the way that they work up, but it actually takes considerable effort and practice to get to that place. And I think, yeah, we do quite a notoriously bad job of this grass roots, creation. And it's interesting, like when we bring into the COVID conversation of you know, we felt like we were adrift in the arts community. And like, we weren't sure if we were truly appreciated. I think that there was a lot of passiveness around the consuming of art, and the Internet has everything to do with that. And, you know, I think that live music is a much richer experience than listening on your phone. But you can access music anytime you want, you know, like AI is at our fingertips, pretty much for free at all times. And so it has to be about experience, if we want to convince people of the value of what art brings into our life, it has to be experiential, because we can passively consume art all day, every day as much as we want. And so I think out of something like COVID, if we want to get people back in theaters, and experiencing the transformation that you have, as an audience member, when you are taken on this journey, when you watch a play or whatever, I think we need to start encouraging the wider community to experience art in their everyday life. Now that might be I don't know, if you're in a corporate industry, maybe you could have, instead of awkward PD, where everyone sits there checking their phone, secretly we talk about I don't know, like buzzwords and certainly bad stuff. Maybe you could have a group art class. And that might sound really silly and wishy washy. But the research is abundant and readily available, go look up, how singing can affect you physically and emotionally. Like there's so much research out there, I think that we need to start bringing the arts into the experience of life, so that people can dip their fingers in creation we need to create with some urgency in this world, because then we will understand what it takes to really, truly transform people with art. It's It's hard work. And we've got to bring people on that journey. Julia Zemiro  1:12:41  I sometimes joke that one day when I've got no work, and I'm 65 I'll open like a drama class school. But ya know, but it'll be called, please come here if you don't want to be famous. And it would be just for the experience of the adults and children to come and go try and doing a monologue from a play, try singing something, try learning something, not to be marked on not to be rewarded by but just to try it in a safe environment. And I also think that's the way you get to learn the vocabulary of a particular genre. You said before with tennis, you had played tennis, and you saw how hard it was. So when you watch it, you have some idea. And I think if every kid you know have at school so early, we have to start choosing what we're going to do if we're going to do a language or if we're going to do music, or if we're going to do sport. And then at some point to unless you're brilliant at it, you're out. It's really hard to be average. And then you're you're told you're average, because the expectation is everyone wants to be brilliant. We don't I'd like to play really average game of netball. But we tried that once and the girls were up the women were up against you know, I did some adult netball classes. We turned up in just our gear and that team had said, yeah, now you'd have to wear anything special. And we were up against this team with bibs. And the whole thing's organized and got uniforms. I was like, What is this and they were not friendly. They did not want to have fun. And so that fun element of being at school and I think kids should sing every single day at school for fun, you do a song that is popular. You do a song that you'd enjoy, not four marks just to open your guts up and yell and sing and make noise. Because that vibration inside you. It's just good for you to do that for an hour and then get on with your day. Astrid Jorgensen  1:14:37  Absolutely. And a very small story, just the direct precursor to public wire. The direct year before I started while I was working in Townsville at a school called St Pat's on the strand, and they had a compulsory whole school choir I was brought into the school specifically to run the fortnightly compulsory Back. In high school, high school girls being forced to sit outside in Townsville, it's hot there, if you haven't been right after assemblies, they've been sitting in the heat, sweltering sweating from every pore. And then after assembly, they remain sitting there sweaty seats and then are forced to sing with me for an hour. And can I tell you it was the most transformative, incredible, illuminating experience of my life. I thank my lucky stars that I was given the opportunity to do that kind of work within the first session. I mean, the doubt, the doubt was high, the hormones were absolutely common. There was just this like sticky sweat, you're in it. And it was mostly for me. And I decided I would not try and explain anything. And exactly what I was saying before I decided I have to go experience first. So instead of saying anything, welcome to quiet. No, I just started seeing my guts out a song that I wanted them to learn, but I let them hear it, I decided that I couldn't ask them to do anything I wouldn't be willing to do. So I just put my face in the mind saying this song is like beautifully as I possibly could. And then I pointed back at them. And I said, Now you sing. And we did it line by line and everyone shut their face. And then saying when I told them to. And so the experience is always it has to come first. Let's worry about well, how to take a beautiful breath and sit this way and do that. Nope. Let's worry about that later. And let's just start with a beautiful feeling of singing together. And then from there, we could you know, bring a new pop song every week. And it was pretty much POM choir, but sober. Thank goodness it was in a school. And yeah, just like taking a song that I thought they already knew. So they felt like they had already succeeded because they knew how it all went. But I'd seen first that seemed back in a moment, this side, try little harmony, and then we gather and it was incredible. And it just showed me my whole perception of creating and the arts had been wrong. It's not about competing, there is no way to win. All we can do is work together. And the sum is always greater than the parts. If you have honest and optimistic leadership, I think that's an important element to it. You can't just flounder. Someone has to be telling someone what to do. Julia Zemiro  1:17:15  You say in this great piece again, the new platform papers get it to join a choir is to agree to play a small part in a collective whole. You give of yourself not for yourself, so that you may share in an outcome much bigger than yourself. I mean, isn't that? Isn't that how we should be voting isn't how we should be living? Isn't that how we should be being like together? Like that's, that's the fun part of it is never time. We're all here, isn't it? Astrid Jorgensen  1:17:43  I mean, I like to think so. And I mean, if I I've heard that there's a parliamentary choir. And I would be willing, if you pull my leg willing to go and take the parliamentary choir because I would love to boss around some politicians with some honest but optimistic leadership and say no, if we work together, we could actually agree and create something better than we could accrue, you know, create by ourselves. I mean, I think that's pretty megalomaniac vibes for me, but no, I think it would be it would be really nice to even have that. Literal politicians working in literal harmony together. Wouldn't that be nice? Julia Zemiro  1:18:29  That'd be That's my dream. That's literally my day. Astrid Jorgensen  1:18:33  I'm putting it out there anyone who's in the parliamentary choir, I'm available. Julia Zemiro  1:18:37  She's available and also let's share that let's have more compulsory whole school choirs. Oh my gosh, Astrid Jorgensen  1:18:44  I think that it was an experience for them as well as me and I you know, we could do with a lot more of that in schools and in society in general. Let's make stuff averagely and have a lovely time. Julia Zemiro  1:18:54  Let's make stuff avidly and have a lovely time. Astrid, you're just a ray of sunshine. And I also want to shout out to a wonderful wave in eso who works with you and plays guitar and gets us all smiling and getting into it and gives us a hand with the tune because sometimes you don't know where we're going. Astrid Jorgensen  1:19:16  She will absolutely be listening and I bet you she's wearing the custom made Julie's Amuro shirt that she had you in her hand and she got it printed so that it would last longer the feeling so thank you for being so lovely and supportive to everything we do. Thank you and it Julia Zemiro  1:19:31  was a thrill also that SBS made a show around pub quiet and specifically they made it around the fact that choirs hadn't been able to get together and we cut to different I hosted it with Miranda Tapsell for SBS and we cut to different choirs all around the country to check in with them in terms of what they've been doing. And you again taught we the way Vinnie live at the Sydney Town Hall to Song hunters and collect a song with Mark Seymour and it was is incredible and yeah I just I hope we get to do it again I hope we get to see that vibe again and and get out there have you done any live since Astrid Jorgensen  1:20:10  so we've done one show in 2022 and it was incredible we did this song I Love You always forever we did it in Brisbane this beautiful song by UK singer Donald Lewis Ella view always read and she got on board Wheaton about it, she's been sharing it you know, I think even that's that's very good feedback. It's very validating to see the artists themselves be excited by a song of their own being reborn sung by you know, drunk, just people. So, you know, if you can't get along to pub like join a local choir, go and make a friend. Go and agree with someone. Go and sing a song and make something with them and you will be better for and I promise. Julia Zemiro  1:20:55  Thank you so much Astrid. love you love you. Astrid Jorgensen  1:20:59  Ah, you are lots of fanning delight. Thank you for having me. Dan Ilic  1:21:02  Julia Zemiro asks, Who cares? Julia Zemiro  1:21:04  So that's the message, everyone sing. averagely go on. I dare you. Thank you to Jen and Astrid, thanks to a rational fee and the patreon supporters the Bertha Foundation and our wonderful post producer Jacob Brown who makes us sound fabulous on equipment from road. Join me next time when we find out who else cares. Bye Transcribed by https://otter.aiA Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFearSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

1hr 21mins

2 Mar 2022

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Julia Zemiro on DISH!

Rue Lamarck

SURPRISE! While we wait patiently for the borders to open, I'm delivering an epsiode of DISH! straight to your feed – with a very French twist. Listen in as Paul and I chat with the incredible Julia Zemiro about traval, the differnece between French and American waiters, and of course, food!  Our GDPR privacy policy was updated on August 8, 2022. Visit acast.com/privacy for more information.

50mins

6 Sep 2021

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Julia Zemiro

Dish Island

She rocks our world as host of Rockwiz, and for years brought the spectacle of Eurovision to Australia. That’s right! The incredible, inedible Julia Zemiro has home delivered herself onto our death trap of an island! Our GDPR privacy policy was updated on August 8, 2022. Visit acast.com/privacy for more information.

48mins

31 Aug 2021

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Julia Zemiro

The Five of My Life

“We can’t get everything we want” says the wonderful Julia Zemiro, in this warm and revealing conversation covering drinking, midlife crisis, trust and regrets. Hear each song chosen by every Five of My Life guest at: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/60PqJQ1rg6fverFMyKvdkG Follow The Five of My Life on Instagram:  The Five of My Life (@thefiveofmylife) Contact Nigel at https://nigelmarsh.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

45mins

16 Aug 2021

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