Ep. 34: “Immunology of the Nervous System” Featuring Dr. Jonathan Kipnis
The Immunology Podcast
Guest: Dr. Jonathan Kipnis is the BJC Investigator and Alan A. and Edith L. Wolff Distinguished Professor of Pathology and Immunology at Washington University in St. Louis. His lab investigates the complex interactions between the immune and nervous systems. He talks about immune activity and surveillance in the brain, and how T cell subsets affect brain function and behavior. He also discusses the brain’s immune reservoir and his lab’s work on cerebrospinal fluid-regulated immune cell mobilization. Featured Products and Resources: Explore free immunology wallcharts. Explore scientific resources for your immunology research at the STEMCELL Technologies immunology learning center. The Immunology Science Round Up Intranasal Vaccines for HIV and SARS-CoV-2 – Researchers developed vaccines that use the neonatal Fc receptor to mediate transmucosal uptake and elicit immune responses at both local and distal mucosal sites. How ADAR1 Mutation Leads to Autoimmune Responses – Scientists found that ZBP1-dependent signaling underlies the autoinflammatory pathology caused by the alteration of ADAR1. Preventing Autoinflammation – Researchers identified ADAR1 as a negative regulator of ZPB1-mediated apoptosis and necroptosis, providing insights into the pathology of Aicardi–Goutières syndrome. Averting Interferon Induction – ZBP1 promotes type I interferon activation and fatal pathology in mice with impaired ADAR1 function. The Interleukin-17 Ligand-Receptor Axis – Scientists explored the explore the structural basis for interleukin-17 family signaling. Image courtesy of Dr. Jonathan Kipnis
In this episode, we chat with Jonathan Kipnis, Ph.D. – BJC Investigator. Jonathan Kipnis is a neuroscientist, immunologist, and professor of pathology and immunology at the Washington University School of Medicine. His lab studies interactions between the immune system and nervous system. He is best known for his lab’s discovery of meningeal lymphatic vessels in humans and mice, which has impacted research on neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer’s disease and multiple sclerosis, neuropsychiatric disorders, such as anxiety, and neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism and Rett syndrome. Kipnis is credited with the 2014 discovery of meningeal lymphatic vessels, a recently discovered network of conventional lymphatic vessels located parallel to the dural sinuses and meningeal arteries of the mammalian central nervous system (CNS). As a part of the lymphatic system, meningeal lymphatics are responsible for draining immune cells, small molecules, and excess fluid from the CNS and into the deep cervical lymph nodes. While it was initially believed that both the brain and meninges were devoid of lymphatic vasculature, the landmark Nature paper by Jonathan Kipnis and his postdoctoral fellow Antoine Louveau was published in 2015. By 2016, this paper was cited nearly 200 times. His discovery of meningeal lymphatic vessels was included in Scientific American’s “Top 10 Science Stories of 2015”, Science Magazine’s “Breakthrough of the Year”, Huffington Post’s “Eight Fascinating Things We Learned About the Mind in 2015” and the National Institutes of Health’s director Francis Collins year-end review. Other research has included the 2015 discovery that the immune system directly affects social behavior and that IFN-gamma is necessary for social development. This expands upon his work as a graduate student when he discovered that mice lacking T-cells had cognitive impairments. (Biography reference – Wikipedia) Highlights of this podcast include: Menigineal immunity and functions Functions of the glymphatics and meningeal lymphatics Neuroimmune system Meningeal lymphatics draining the CNS Immune system affects on the brain Pia, arachnoid, and dura mater Difference between the Lymphatic system and the Glymphatic system Aging and glymphatics Brain tumors Sleep and glymphatic draining Alzheimers Immuno-therapies and combination therapies And So Much More! To learn more about Jonathan Kipnis PhD., please visit kipnislab.wustl.edu This episode is brought to you by Therasage. Use code: STOPCHASINGPAIN at checkout.
How to Better Yourself In Your Surroundings (Teen Talks Podcast #33) Ft. Jonathan Kipnis
Teen Talks Podcast
In this podcast, I bring back my good friend Jonathan to talk about a popular topic when it comes to self-worth. Jonathan and I cover how better yourself mentally, physically, and socially in today's age. We also cover friends and their worth for our specific lives, cutting people off and reasons behind them and most importantly standing for what you believe is right. Lastly, we cover being FAKE WOKE and the privilege that was given and how to use this to our advantage rather than slack off and let time pass! There are many important messages in this podcast so I hope you enjoy it!
Peacemaking, Friend Groups, & Hookups (Teen Talks Podcast #24) ft. Jonathan Kipnis
Teen Talks Podcast
In this podcast, I talk with my friend Jonathan Kipnis and share our similar personalities. We talk about:- Peacemaking and being the bigger person- Changing in our friend groups - Fun stories about girls and our hookup experiences Jonathan Socials:Instagram: - Jonathan.KipnisMy Socials:Tiktok: teentalkspodcasttInstagram: - Teentalkspodcastt- michaelspeciale
Multiple Sclerosis Discovery -- Episode 53 with Dr. Jonathan Kipnis
Multiple Sclerosis Discovery: The Podcast of the MS Discovery Forum
[intro music]Host – Dan KellerHello, and welcome to Episode Fifty-Three of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery, the podcast of the MS Discovery Forum. I’m your host, Dan Keller.This week’s podcast features Dr. Jonathan Kipnis, who discusses his recent discovery of lymphatic vessels in the meninges. But first, here are some new items in the MS Discovery Forum.According to our curated list of the latest scientific articles related to MS, 34 such articles were published between August 21st and 28th. To see these publications and the articles we selected as Editors Picks, go to msdiscovery.org and click on Papers. Our Drug-Development Pipeline includes continually updated information on 44 investigational agents for MS. This week, we’ve added 6 pieces of information about alemtuzumab and fingolimod. To find information on all 44 compounds, visit msdiscovery.org and click first on Research Resources and then on Drug-Development Pipeline.The MSDF team is looking forward to attending next month’s ECTRIMS meeting in Barcelona, Spain. If you, too, will be at the conference and would like to meet with us – or if you’re interested in being interviewed about your research for a future podcast – please email us at firstname.lastname@example.org.[transition music]And now to Part 1 of our interview with Dr. Jonathan Kipnis, Professor of Neuroscience and Director of the Center for Brain Immunology and Glia at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville. His group recently published in Nature their discovery and characterization of lymphatic vessels in the meninges. Interviewer – Dan KellerYou've described in this paper about meningeal lymphatics, the novel but actually more conventional path for cerebrospinal fluid drainage from the CNS than I guess had been thought of before; it's sort of conventional as revolutionary. Can you tell me what you found and what led you to look?Interviewee – Jonathan KipnisYes, so we've been interested in the role of meningeal immune system for quite some time, and we've shown that changes in meningeal immunity could impact brain after a CNS injury, or also for normal brain function. So, for example, mice that have impaired meningeal immunity would show cognitive deficits and would show some little bit more prone to stress and other phenotypes. So we've been very interested in understanding how meningeal immunity is being regulated. So the assumption was at some point that there is no immune cells in the brain, which is true, except for microglial which reside in the brain and compose 10% of the brain cells, but there is no peripheral immune cells within the brain. But in very nearby areas, which is the surroundings of the brain – the choroid plexus, the meninges, and the CSF – that's where actually there are immune cells, and there are all types of immune cells. And so we have been very interested to understand how the cells are getting in and getting out. Through the use of parabiotic mice, we demonstrated last year, we showed that immune population of the meninges is not static; the cells are being repopulated, and about 50% of T cells, for example, is being exchanged within about 10 days, and major exchange between the CSF or the meninges with the deep cervical lymph nodes. So nothing was really new, we just sort of established things maybe more solid way. Those cells can get in while still nobody understands very well how they get in; we'll assume they get in through the meningeal vasculature, which is probably true. But then how do they get out, or what happens with cells after they get to the CNS? Well, the assumptions were, well, they either die, magically disappear, or crawl under the nose through the cribriform plate and into the deep cervical lymph nodes through the nasal mucosa. They were okay explanations, but in our systems we did not find any of it to be sufficiently explaining what's going on in this really fast and pretty dramatic exchange of the immune system within the meningeal spaces. So when we just looking at it a bit closer, and it is very, very well established that there is lymphatic drainage from the CNS, so this needs to be remembered. So people in many labs have shown that if you put stuff in the brain – which stuff I mean proteins – if you put proteins or antigens in the brain, whether it's in the parenchyma or in the meninges or in the CSF, you will find those proteins, and you will find immune response to these proteins in the deep cervical lymph nodes.The question is, of course, how do they get there? And the path which was described just did not work in our hands, and so I was lucky to get a very, very talented postdoc, Antoine Louveau, at the lab. He realized that for us to understand how things get in and out, the only way to do it is to do live imaging and also to do a whole mount of the entire meninges. And I think that's when it was a breakthrough point. So Antoine laid out the entire meninges and was looking for location of the immune cells. And he said let's see where I see maximum accumulation of the immune cells, and then let's see how these places will change when we expose mouse to, for example, stress, learning, or EAE inflammation, viral infection, or whatever, let's see how these areas of dense immune population will change. And so he realized that there is a lot of immune activity around the major sinuses in the meninges, and then he saw that there are immune cells which are in the vascular structures which were not blood vessels. And I think that was the turning point. And I said, okay, if the cells are within the vasculature which is not blood vasculature, what would it be? Well, so I went to colleagues here and said what do you label lymphatic vessels with? And they didn't understand why would you want to label for lymphatic vessels, because they don't work with the brain. And so we labeled a lymphatic marker and we saw the vessels, which were lining the major sinuses and going all the way along them. So that's a very long answer to your very simple question.MSDFAnd Antoine Louveau's technique here that was the key to it was doing in situ fixation so he could get the meninges out intact?Dr. KipnisTo let's assume the meninges came out intact on the brain, and let's assume we had this beautiful staining. Let's say we did the coronal staining, and let's say we're labeling for lymphatic vessels. So you can imagine that what you'll see is at the border of the brain you will see a dot; you will see maybe three dots because there are three vessels going along the sinuses. And when you see a dot, you never take a dot seriously in immunohistochemistry. Now that we know that this dot represents the vessel, then we can actually go back and do those coronal sections and look at it. But back then only by seeing the whole meninges mounted as one on a slide, and by seeing those vessels there, I mean that's when we knew. And so to us it was obvious this is something that absolutely went under-noticed. And this technique of whole-mount meninges, I think, was absolutely crucial. MSDFDid he find these vessels in all layers of the meninges, or any specific ones?Dr. KipnisNo, no. Major lymphatic vessels are following the superior sagittal and the transverse sinuses, which is in the dura. So all the blood from the brain is being – at least in mice. In humans it goes a little bit different, but also through the sinuses, although sinuses are located so not all the blood in the human brain goes through the parasagittal sinus, but in the mouse brain all the blood goes through the sinuses in the dura. So major sinuses through which all the blood is being collected from the brain, and then goes out there. And so along those sinuses we find the lymphatic vessels, so they are sitting in the dura. MSDFAnd this system also has been found in humans?Dr. KipnisWell, that's a good question. You know, it's very hard to obtain high-quality human samples from the dura, because nobody really cares about this area. So we were lucky in the triple operation of Bea Lopes, who's a really great neuropathologist here at UV; she was able to give us, I think, nine samples from patients of dura of the sinus; these were all fixed in formalin. So we looked at those, and as you can imagine, the sinus in the human is huge, so obviously compared to a mouse. So in two out of nine, we were able to identify vessels that looked like meningeal vessels, but I think it warrants much deeper and much farther investigation to be able to say, yes, here they are. But if you ask me personally, why wouldn't they be? Why would mice have them and humans won't have them. So I think it's a matter of identifying their location and the best markers to use for them, but I think they should be there again. In two out of the nine samples, we were able to demonstrate that this is something that looks very, very good. MSDFAnd you did immunohistochemistry on these to show the lymphatic properties and not general blood circulatory vasculature properties, either in the mice or human?Dr. KipnisOh, yes. So in the mice we identified the characteristics of those vessels really, really well. You know, nothing is perfect, that every marker on mouse markers are expressed by different cells, so you need here to provide a series of markers and to demonstrate that this is also indeed the real lymphatic cells. So we stained for LYVE1 and we showed beautiful staining with LYVE1, also with macrophages. And those are vascular structures and they came out to be macrophages. But one of the major transcription factors that will define lymphatic and endothelial cells is a Prox1. So we demonstrated two ways of Prox1; one is transgenic mouse and the other is staining for Prox1. And we also did two other molecules. One is a Podoplanin which is expressed in tissue lymphatics, and these vessels are expressive. And the other molecule, she is very interesting. It's a receptor for VEGF3, VEGF-C. And this receptor is first on the lymphatic and endothelial cells. In the periphery, lymphatic and endothelial cells will respond to recombinant VEGF-C and will expand. So what we did here, we also injected a recombinant VEGF-C and we showed these vessels expanding. So we know now that the receptor is actually functional in the vessels, but also we now can expand the vessels. Whether it will impact any neurological disease, we don't know, but at least we have the capability to do so. And then we also identified them by flow cytometry. We took samples from skin and from diaphragm where lymphatics are very, very well defined, and using the exact same antibodies we did also flow cytometry on our meningeal samples. And we show that the cells look exactly like they look from the skin and from the diaphragm; of course, the numbers are much smaller. So I think in terms of their calculation in a mouse, we are very convinced.Now for humans it's more difficult. Like I said, the sample was in formalin and it's very hard to work with those samples, and, again, the area is huge to go through. So we were able in humans to get two markers to work; one was LYVE1 and the other was Podoplanin. We could not make Prox1 to work, I think it's a problem with the antibody and not with the vessel or potentially with the tissue as well. And these vessels would not label for some other markers, which would be characteristic of, for example, macrophages. So we were able to attack on them two out of four markers that would potentially allow for him to see. But we are now trying to identify those vessels by other means in humans as well, and I think flow cytometry may be the way to go. MSDFNow you've shown that these lymphatic vessels drain into the deep cervical lymph nodes, and it looks like you've also been able to rule out drainage through the cribriform plate back into the cervical lymph nodes. Is that true? Dr. KipnisI'm glad you bring this up, this is very important. So if you think of CSF, CSF is composed of several things. So we have the liquid itself, we have the macromolecules within the CSF, and then we have the immune cells within the CSF. So I don't think there is anybody would argue against liquid being drained through the cribriform plate and through the granulation; this is funny to argue. And obviously we are not claiming anything until we're absolutely sure; there is beautiful works from many, many labs showing that. But for the macromolecules and for the immune cells, the path which was proposed through the cribriform plate most probably if it's not a wrong one, it's probably not the major one. [transition music]Thank you for listening to Episode Fifty-Three of Multiple Sclerosis Discovery. This podcast was produced by the MS Discovery Forum, MSDF, the premier source of independent news and information on MS research. Msdiscovery.org is part of the non-profit Accelerated Cure Project for Multiple Sclerosis. Robert McBurney is our President and CEO, and Hollie Schmidt is vice president of scientific operations. Msdiscovery.org aims to focus attention on what is known and not yet known about the causes of MS and related conditions, their pathological mechanisms, and potential ways to intervene. By communicating this information in a way that builds bridges among different disciplines, we hope to open new routes toward significant clinical advances.We’re interested in your opinions. Please join the discussion on one of our online forums or send comments, criticisms, and suggestions to email@example.com.[outro music]