Hidden Profits & FASTER Workflows for WordPress Agencies With Vito Peleg
Press This WordPress Community Podcast
Do you run a WordPress freelance or agency business? Are you looking for ways to finish projects faster and unlock the hidden profits in your business?In this episode of PressThis, we interview Vito Peleg of the immensely popular Atarim platform about his views on why workflow optimization is important, how faster workflows can unlock hidden profit centers in your business and the methods you can use to achieve the same. Vito shares his formulas for success in optimizing workflows from years of hands-on experience and his experience helping agencies and freelancers through Atarim.Take some time from your busy schedule and learn how to deliver value faster for clients and unlock more profit in your freelance or agency business. Listen to this episode of PressThis now!
In this episode I talk to Vito Peleg, the founder of WP Feedback. Vito and his team launched WP Feedback in the summer of 2019 and it was one of the most spectacular and well executed product launches I've seen in the WordPress space. This was manifested in more than $100,000 in sales in the first month. Listen to Vito unpack the journey from freelancer, to agency, to successful product business.Links WP Feedback Vito on Twitter Vito's band Chase the Ace Try Branch - Automated deployments for WordPressBranch is my company and the sponsor of this podcast. Branch helps agencies and freelancers set up automated deployments for all their WordPress client sites. Listeners of this podcast gets twice as many free deployments by identifying themselves in the live chat widget!➡️ Create a free Branch accountTranscript of this episode (automatically generated)Today on the show. I'm excited to bring on a Vito Peleg to tell the story of how he went from client work to one of the most eye catching product launches in the WordPress ecosystem that I remember at least Vito is the founder of WP feedback, a product that helps you systematize your website, project delivery process from start to finish.From what I recall from my conversation with Vito at the hallway track at WordCamp Brighton, he started out busking in the streets of London, and I can't wait to unpack his journey on this episode. You can find Vito on Twitter at feedback WP. Before we begin the episode, I want to tell you a bit about Branch.Branch is my business and the sponsor of this podcast. It's the simplest way to set up automated deployments for your work for science. We've got your back with the recipes for all the common workflows that the WordPress developers need, making it simple for easy and fun, honestly, to build out your deployment pipelines.It's continuous integration and deployment without the learning curve. And it's free to get started. So go check it out. And if you open up the live chat widget and identify yourself as a listener of this podcast, we'll double the amount of free deployments in your account. Yep. Why is this many deployments without paying, you can sign up for free and branch cei.com.I started this episode by asking Vito to explain what his business looked like before he launched WP feedback. Vito, you want to try to explain how your business looked before you launched WP feedback, and then two weeks after you launched it. Like how did it look before and how did it look after?Before WP Feedback I had an agency and we're working at 12 guys, a few was in London, but the rest were abroad, you know, like all around the world. And we were basically building websites for clients that was the day-to-day every day, full few years. And then having a few hundreds of projects that throughout this time. I was looking for a way to get out of the agency model for a while.You know, when I was looking at all kinds of different aspects, maybe creating even a course. Or, you know, all of these kinds of channels that people look to scale up while I was doing my research and how I can actually do this. The problem with communicating with clients is always been there. Um, and you always jump around between a thousand tools and they, you know, they, you just don't get on the same page as they did.But while I was trying to focus on finding a way to scale, this was actually really hurting our business and profitability on the other side. So I came up with the idea of how it should be laid out, and I asked the dev team to build it for us. You know, not even thinking about this as it's going to be the product, but actually thinking about, okay, let them fix this problem while I actually focused on what I want to build as a way to scale up, but it worked like magic.And then it just kind of dawned on me that it's probably not a problem that only I am experiencing. We went on the market research and as soon as we launched it, we had a pretty nice explosion right at the beginning. We managed to generate six figures in revenue within the first 30 days as a new product in this space, this was groundbreaking.Like no one did that before. And yeah. And so as soon as this happened, I was like, okay, no more client work. That's it. It was clear. Cut like that. You were just telling me before we hit record. That you're working on V2 of WP feedback and it felt like the way you described it, like, it feels like there's quite a big difference between mean doing client work and being product business.So like what's the day to day difference between your old business and the business you're running now. Right. So in my previous business, I was the business. So I was in the middle of everything and I was the biggest bottleneck of the company. Everything had to land on my table. Well, it was distributed out to other people.So my day to day was very much influenced by that. I was actually, yeah, talking to clients and sending out invoices and making sure that this task has been done. And following up with my team. Doing all of those, uh, repetitive tasks that are mind numbing. I even compare this. If you remember it back in the fifties, there was this lady is that the call centers, where they were just like redirecting the calls from one place to another.And that was my day, you know, looking back, it's such a devaluation of my time. Doing this three hours out of every day, uh, that it's crazy compared to what I'm focusing on right now. So now I'm a lot calmer to be honest, but I was back then, you know, I delegate a lot more. So I'm totally aware that the way that this product has developed as evolved over the past year and a half, it brings it to a point where I am no longer the thing, you know, I don't matter.In the grand scheme of things, it's all about understanding the client's needs, our user's needs. And trying to implement that. And when you're working as an agency, you only get to build the first version of the product. In most cases, you know, you build a website and then you send off to the client to figure things out on his own.Of course you do care plans and stuff, but there's no continuous development in. Most of the projects, you know, which means that, um, for us, the client is the client, you know, is the guy that bought the website. But now the client is actually the user, which I think is a much more healthy, uh, way of looking at things.So of course we were doing market research with our clients and asking them, who is your target audience and all of that. But, you know, you can't be as tuned into the end. Clients wants and needs as when you are the guy in charge of the product itself.So we definitely going to talk a lot more about dopey feedback. I tease this in the intro, but you, your background is as a musician and it's kind of funny. Like, I feel like every time I talk to someone in Europe, the way they started making websites is because they built a band website. And when I talk to people in the U S it's always the church website.So I don't know what that tells you about people, but it's just interesting. So you got started in music. I found your band on YouTube. JC ACE, right? It's the band. So people can go and check that out. We'll link that in the show notes as well. And somehow you ended up running WordPress agency. How did that happen?I always want to, you know, since I was a teenager, I wanted to be a rock star. That was my kind of dream as a teenager. And that was my focus. So we were actually building a band back home in Tel Aviv in Israel and, you know, doing the rounds for a few years, trying to make it right while this was happening.Of course, you have to make some kind of a living. So I started getting into digital just a little bit more from the point of view of, I had a pretty nice success with my space, with a band. And I built our first website in a four when I was in high school with geo cities. If you remember back in the day, we got it.Then megabytes to build the site for free. And so I already had a bit of experience with HTML CSS and all that kind of stuff. But, uh, when we actually got signed and we all moved to the UK, started touring around the world from our base was here in London. That's when I needed to create some revenue while I was on the road.So I was literally living in a van and I was looking for a way to make money cause the band wasn't cutting it. And so. I started building websites for clients. You know, they just came from the experience that they saw, how I'm marketing the band. And I built our kind of, uh, resources and stuff like that.So we start with friends and family, and that was my first freelancing. This, you know, stealing wifi for McDonald's as we pass by on the Autobahn. After that ended, you know, we finished kind of our twenties and that we put the bands to rest. I said, all right, let's see what I can do to actually grow this business.Within the first year, I got to six figures in revenue as a freelancer, they said, all right, let's scale this up and see what we can do in year three. I already had a team of 12. And then by year four, we were already doing WP feedback. So I feel that it's kind of a continuous evolution, you know, from being a freelancer.And I would even say from being a musician, like you're saying, eh, there's a lot of creativity involved, a lot of manifestation of something out of nothing. This very much relates to how people build websites. You know, you have that picture in your mind. Kind of the same as you create a song, you know, you get the content, right.The designer does all their production and the sound around it, and you need to also market it and launch it too, so that people actually listen to it eventually. Yeah. It feels like every step was the school that I needed for the next one. That's very interesting. Um, thinking now, like as a musician, you need inspiration.To come up with songs, but when you're talking about business as well, like what was your inspiration and how did you learn about the next step and what inspired you to. Grow pretty fast actually, and keep like moving to the next stage and not end up getting stuck at one stage. Yes. Thanks. Stagnant. Which is what a lot of people do.And sometimes it's the right thing to do if your goal is different than that's cool. You know, it's just a matter of knowing what you want. And, you know, I see a lot of our users that are freelancing. Successfully for years, they're not looking to build a massive team or to grow beyond that. They are very satisfied with what they can provide for their family.And they get satisfaction from actually doing the design work and working on the website itself. For me, I started the whole thing with a very early age when I decided that I wanted to be a musician. Everyone told me you can't. Right. That's the next thing that happens when you state the big goal, you're going to have people that's going to tell you that you can't.And I try to kind of research on my own, figure it out. How can I, you know, I wasn't accepting the possibility of this not happening. And so I got into all of these business books and stuff like that when I started reading. And literally when I was 16 years old, if you remember there was back then I reach that Paul dad and all of those things.That build your mindset. And I think that this is the core of it. If you have the mindset for growth, you're going to grow and that's it, you know, everything else figures itself out. But if you have that intention that you're going to be at a newer, bigger, a better place than where you are right now, everything is, will just happen around it.That's cool. I think it sounds like when you started doing websites, when you were on the road, like you kind of fell into it a little bit because you learned the skill because you, you needed it for yourself, but when you launch the VP feedback, even though the product started out, it sounds like as an internal tool, it sounds like you were pretty intentional about that.And Oh yeah. I would love to know like, basically when you knew that, okay, this is going to be a product. And because when it launched. It was a big splash. And, you know, the headline was that you got to $100,000 in annual current revenue and like the first month or something like that. Right. Which is incredible.I've never heard about that in the word, the space before. So basically. From you decided this is going to be a product that we're going to go out in the market with. And you got to that amazing result. Like what did that look like? And that happened, first of all, there was a lot of intent in this. Like you're saying Peter, as soon as I decided that we're going to go down this route, I started looking at what is happening in this space.And I've been using WordPress for 12 years old, a little more than that. And, uh, throughout that experience, I got to know all of those products as a user, you know, so as a gravity form user, and even back then you'd have visual composer and all of that. And I with the tools as well. So I started with that as little bit of research into the space what's happening there.I found a great blog by freemium famous.com. Which later they published the case study of how we reached our results. And that was an amazing resource to read. I just read the entire blog. Like it was a book just to kind of get to that insight. What I found is that, like we were saying before about some people that are deciding to be freelancers, which is cool.This is the same concept that you see in the WordPress space when it relates to products. Some people are cool with having like a side project and that's what they want to, they just want to have a few extra thousand dollars added. To their revenue every month. And that's cool, you know, that's, that's the goal achieved.Right? And I, to be honest, I also have one plugin like that, that is running in the background. No one really knows about, but that's part of it, you know, that it just runs on its own. But with WP feedback, I decided to look at the big companies and see what they do because I saw a massive, massive potential.And more than realizing it myself. We went out and did market research. So we surveyed 600 WordPress professionals. I think the booklet, when we met last year, Peter, right? Yep. And surveyed the 600 WordPress professionals to see what they do, how do they deliver a project and what is their workflow look like?And then we saw it's a complete mess all across the ecosystem. So I found that there was a massive kind of a demand for something like this. And we approached the whole thing. Very strategically with a launch sequence. So we use the survey as the first mechanism of getting the better users and delighted the beta users to the point where they helped us promote the hell out of this thing.When we went out to the market a month after the beta started that coupled with, uh, Just being out there. This is what I kind of call the omnipresent strategy where you want to try and corner a group of people from every angle possible. So, uh, I was on the podcast, you know, during the podcast rounds and the, every conference that happened, I was there last year.Yeah. So I did about 20 something conferences throughout 2019. This is where we met as well, Peter, less, uh, in a blight or last year also, we were running Facebook ads, Google ads that are doing remarketing to the same audience, which created this experience that we came out of nowhere and with every well.That's how it felt. Yeah. That was the strategy. It's just, you want to try and map out all of these touch points that your target audience might have with you and in the WordPress space that would be being at WordCamp speaking at WordCamps a sponsoring WordCamps that would include doing partnerships with companies like GoDaddy or elegant marketplace or WP engine, and also being on all of these podcasts.So that you're always seen. All I did was tell my story. But I am the user, you know, so it made it very relatable and very easy for our target audience to say, okay, this guy has experienced the same problem. I am. The only difference is that he took the time to figure it out and build something that will fix it.And now I can benefit from it. That was the intent. That's awesome. Did you start with any kind of. Discount or deal or something like that to get that initial revenue. Yes. So my, my thought was this, if I want to build a business and I saw this form of hundreds of clients that we were building, uh, websites and basically online businesses for, and how they treated the marketing after.And again, it's the same thing as musicians. Some people, what they do is they. Put all of their effort into the album, you know, they spend, they spent 10 years creating the album, making sure that it's perfect and they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars getting the best mastering engineer that will go in and put that gloss finish on top of it, work with producers and all of that mess.But then there's no budget for marketing. Even more than that, there is no focus on how to bring this to the market. So I was always, it was loaded with the music under this different approach. And this is more like the lean startup kind of concept that you don't know until you go out there, you got to hypothesize an idea, bring it to the market, have them decide if it's good or not.And then add them, tell you what needs improving to make it even better for them. So that was our strategy when it comes to the product, which means that from idea. To market. It took us two months and for me, better to pop a lunch, it took us 30 days. And from blanche to 130,000 in revenue, it took us 30 days.Again, every stage had a clear path to it. Now, when I was starting, the thing I said, all right, if I really want to build a big company, I need to have a lot of money. Fast, but building AI building Emma is even harder, you know, getting those fuses, especially at an earliest stage where the product is probably not awesome.You know, it just came to the market. So it's probably not going to be as amazing as a Santa or, uh, you know, active campaign or, or these products that have been around for more than a decade and been improving this with teams of dozens of people. So we decided to go down the lifetime loud to get people, to invest into the product early on.Have just a limited amount of lifetime licenses that we're going to be selling. And this way we have a small group of people that invested a lot, which means that they are invested in the success of the product long-term and they are also invested in giving us those feedback reports, telling us the hard truth that sometimes as product makers, we don't want to heal.So when you get to someone to spend a few hundred bucks, they're going to tell you the truth, no matter what you say, right. I actually leaned into that. I embraced that as the mechanism of improving. Now, talking about lifetime deals, those two approaches to this, there is the AppSumo out and there is what we did.Uh, the AppSumo out is I think a bad idea. I say why? I think that, that, um, it's already putting you. Support at a place where it can't handle it and absolutely is designed for founders that we're not awesome at marketing and they need to get those initial users. Right. That's usually the case for the product on there.So if you don't know what you're doing in marketing, I guess that might be a good approach, but it's not going to be. Profitable as doing it on your own. For me, this round, this launch round was the mechanism of creating the seed round that we needed. I think that's what I kind of, even when we talked about this last year, I told you about this seed round concept is like, how can I get a few hundred grand?So I can actually build a popup company, not just a bootstrap. The life out of it, we sold licenses for 500 to $600 each, which means that we got about 300 users that will on this plan. You could see how that leaves the support at a pretty easy going state. It's only 300 users, but then also allow us to build enough reserves to execute on the plan like sponsoring WordCamps or spending Facebook ads to begin other users that will actually start building the all.And throughout out the rest of the year, this was the base. So after your big launch, there must have been a lot of work to do, like incorporating all the feedback and talking to those users. But also like that's when you also start to build up that more like recurring revenue from those people that aren't on a lifetime deal.Exactly. It sounds like the hard work maybe starts after that initial launch. Yes. Yes. I guess every stage is a hard work on its own. Uh, it has its own challenges, but you're right. Building ALR is not easy, you know, especially in the highly competitive world where it's not a matter of direct competition.I am in competition with JPL because the user is spending $100 a month on JPL. So even though we don't do anything related, they are already chipping into the user's budget. So I agree. This is definitely one of the challenging parts of it, but without having the seed round, I think we would have gone bust way before we reached a point of profitability, you know, just for me.So your customer funded in a very like literal sense, I guess they did. Yeah.What does WP feedback look like today? What's the product like, and what's the business like? So nowadays, which is one and a half years after we first launched this, we launched it in last June, June of 19. Now the solution is being used on more than 11,000 websites. We closed year one with very nice, uh, profit, as well as, uh, growing the team to a team of nine guys, full time, uh, developers and team members that are helping the product.Grow first of all, as a product itself, you know, it's cool. Uh, but also, uh, attracting more users and making sure that as the product evolves, and this is one of our latest challenge that is very interesting. As a product evolves, people have a different perception of how it was. Compared to where it is right now.And I think that you might have the same experience with your product, Peter, because the startup process is an iterative process. You know, where you go and you play around and you see what works and what moves the needle for you and for the user, or even better for the user and also for you. And then you add features or pivot features according to that.So when we started, it was the MVP, let's call it, you know, version 1.0. Was a sticker stool. You know, you could install a plugin on a website and you get a layer on the top of the phone and the backend that allows you to put post-it notes that are attached to the HTML elements of the page itself, which means that it makes it super easy and visual to collaborate and to communicate internally inside the website, instead of taking screenshots and sending links and doing all of that, you get the thing on email with no screenshot and just forwards.Yeah. You have one hour to figure it out what the client is even talking about. Once you do, you take a screenshot and then you send it to the devs and they take the screenshot, go back to the website. It's a whole fragmented mess. Our initial point was to fix this process, but from the get-go, the vision was, we need to build the.Only system or the best system to deliver website projects. And that's when, uh, we built the dashboard, which is not attached to work with at all. It's more of a SAS solution on Lavelle and react that allows for the user to integrate all of their websites into one centralized hub that acts as your inbox, because the way I see it, email is the biggest threat.To, to, uh, uh, to your clarity when you're dealing with communications specifically around visual stuff. And 87% of the market is using email, uh, which is a 30 year old tool that was never designed for this use case to collaborate and communicate something that is super highly. Visual that is the dashboard itself.And now inside the dashboard, we have our task center, which brings in and filters automatically all of the different tasks from all of the different websites into one centralized place takes automated. Screenshots, tells you the screen size, the Basel version. So you're basically logging into there every morning as your inbox.More than that, we elaborated the project, uh, uh, control feature, uh, which means that. Again, now the way people do it is they get a revision or request from a client. They copy it from their email into a sauna or into Trello or base camp, and then the developer, or they go in there and tackle the task from there.Then go back to the email to notify the clients that it's done. So we said, all right, we can cut the whole thing out of it process because we already have the stickers on the website. They have statuses. So based on that, we created Kanban boards that give you the clearest snapshot of your project. Any given moment without any cost be paste or duplication of different platforms.The van division Peter is to bring it all home. We get to a place where you manage the project. We like to say this from the proposal to the support, from a tool that doesn't fight you and it doesn't battery with every step that you need to train the client that you need to learn yourself, the ability to take a step of a project and move it from the wireframing stage that is done on a third party platform.To the site mapping stage that is done on another platform to the task tracking that is not on another platform. So everything is like manually lifted and moved. And our vision says slide from one place to another. I think one place where branch and dopey feedback or similar. Is that they're both WordPress aware.Like they both understand what a WordPress project is and what people need when they're working on a WordPress project. I agree. And this is something that there is no competition for work process of now in the market when it comes to building complex websites fast, you know, which is what most clients for smaller agencies, it's more business owners are looking for.I believe that this focus is the way to go. Even though there is plans for the future. Once we grab enough of a market share here to explore other platforms as well. That's awesome. And it's definitely something I think that people should check out. Yes.I want to get your thoughts on how. Other people can maybe start to explore the world of products. I don't know necessarily. And I want to hear what you think about this. If people need to go all in, like you did, like maybe there's a way to have a more smooth transition into product work, or just add some products to the mix.Right? First of all, like I think a big challenge that people might have is. It sounds like you basically just dedicated your entire team to work on this for a couple of months. That's a big bed, essentially. So how should people think about like finding the time and resources to do this? Do you recommend the way you did it or do you recommend more like a transition or slow iterative process or something like that?So I believe that speed builds momentum and now it's saving most. Speed to market will always beat perfection. So as soon as you can get something out there, then you start learning. But if you think her with it forever, you're never going to get to that stage. So the way that we approach this, first of all, I said, he was built for us internally.So it was like super scrappy, you know, just something that we can use ourselves worked only on our stack. And, you know, in WordPress, every environment, there are. Uh, be in variations of people's stacks, uh, that you need to consider when you're building your product in this space. And we didn't have any of these challenges, you know, when we were just building it for us.So initially it was a very small project that was just, we did it for a couple of days to get it out there. Then once we thought, all right, this works, let's develop this product. We actually created. I talked to my friend that is, um, after the fact, the designer. And I showed him the tool. I told them what we needed to look like.And we created a screen cast video that is not real, you know, that is actually done in after effects. That is mocking up what the tool will do once it's ready. That's what we took to market initially, even before, you know, just to get to people's interests. And that got us like a mailing list of 1300 people that helped us actually get customers for me.How did you get 1300 people? I took that video and I placed it on a few Facebook groups and LinkedIn groups, no money spent whatsoever. And the idea inspired people. So I told him that, uh, you can sign up and once we are ready, we'll let you know. We didn't promise that it's ever going to be ready, you know, but we just said that, uh, this is what we're building.And if you want to hear about it, sign up here. So this was how we did our research that I told you right after people gave us their email, the next. Step straight after that was a survey. How do you gather the content right now? How do you approve designs right now? How do you provide support right now?What is your go-to page builder? So we knew which tools we needed to be compatible with. Uh, at least from the first early stages. What is your go-to theme? All of these kinds of questions that help us slip. Yeah, the better. Uh, but your question Peter was more around, uh, eh, if people should go all in or not, right.Yeah, but it sounds like you're definitely removing a lot of risk by going step-by-step and basically testing your assumptions in a way at each of the steps. Like you're being guided by the demand in the market. It sounds like when you're exactly, because it's all about feedback loops, you know, the feedback loop process means that you come up with an idea, you hypothesize something and then you got to build it or build some kind of an MVP of it so that you can bring it to market.Best it get market feedback and then come up with new ideas that will listen. It's a never ending cycle, right? If you picture this in your mind and you picture it like a wheel, the faster, this will goes, the better momentum you're going to build for the business. So if you're trying to iterate something for a year, Before you're actually showing this to anyone.You know, the wheel is not moving, I think a hundred years to get to where you would get competitive, completing a full feedback loop every week. And that was what we did even with the update rounds. Yeah. Uh, we were doing the first six months of the product. We were literally pushing updates. Every single week, every week there was a new feature.There was a couple of bug fixes and, uh, you know, it slowed down a little bit after when we got deeper. So as the product evolves, there's a lot more conditions to take into account, uh, before you can actually push or complete a feedback loop. And that's what happens, you know, if you're looking at it, In bigger companies.So like corporations and stuff, their feedback loops are super, super slow. And that is because of that. You know, you have bureaucracy that builds over time, uh, because of the depth of the company or the product itself that requires safety mechanisms. So you don't break things as you're going through those loops.When you're young, when you're early, you can run through a lot every single day. I think that's some really solid advice. If people are looking for product ideas and they're already doing client work, do you recommend that they look for internal tools like you did? Or how should they go about finding those ideas?Do you have any thoughts about, yes. So I actually answered this through a friend of mine that works in real estate. You know, we worked with a real estate agency, uh, for the past few years now we had a kid who had just had a baby girl and the, it was, uh, asking me Vito, how can I actually generate a little more cash for my family now, which is more of the side business concepts that you were describing.I told him, just look at your day and see what you can automate. And build that, that's it. So what he did is he found a thing that every time they have a guy that is a, you know, a landlord that is from abroad and they need to do the taxes thing here in the UK, whatever he needs to send something to this guy and then send it to that guy and then log into this website and then.Go to that thing. And it's a posters that a lot of people don't want to do, and he knows how to do it. So to him, it takes him like 10, 15 minutes and it gets, it done gets 300 pounds every time he does it himself manually. So don't automate it, you know? And that's it keep the 300 pounds every time someone needs it, even more, put them on a cycle because taxes come every year and you're good.You know, you have a little product.There's one more question I want to ask you. Is there anything you miss about doing client work? Am. No, I don't think so. To be honest with you, we do have a few clients that are on the care plan. So we don't do any, any new projects. Right. Uh, but we do have care plan clients that we kept, uh, just so that we can still get high on our own supply.You know, so we're still using our product every day and the developers and the support agents go in, use the product to help, uh, our. 10 clients that we have kept using the tool on their day to day operations, which that we're there to find the bugs before I will use those do. Other than that, you know, I gained so much clarity since I stopped this forces.I can hear now from a lot of our users that thanks to our platform, this really helps alleviate a lot of these pain points that I was experiencing. But a lot of your day is basically dealing with it. The people that don't have full trust in you. If that makes sense. You know, you always put under the place where you're a little bit questions about your motives, if you will, you know, because you're actually supplying the service to these people, you know, that what you're doing is the right thing for their business.But I don't know, you know, they're not meant to know if what you're doing is the right thing for their business. So they're always kind of on the questioning side in a lot of those relationships, but, and what I found is that this is poisoned for your mindset. Compared to being around a supportive group of people, which are our users, the same people as us, you know, they are agency owners and freelancers themselves, and they come from a constructive point of view rather than a, I don't think we should do that.Maybe we can do it like that. And because I don't have a lot of these communications on phone or this I'm getting to experience these conversations. On my day to day, you know, like what we're having right now, uh, you know, you talk to smart people, you learn things along the way, as opposed to saying the same thing.Can you please send me the log ins to the domain register? Well, no, this is not the domain register. Yeah, I think people can definitely relate to that. That's great. Vito, thank you so much for sharing your story. Uh, this was really good. If people want to learn more about doopy feedback or you, where should they go?Please visit WP feedback.co. Our users are seeing an 80% decrease in the project completion time from the standard five weeks. Down to 10 days, three weeks down to three days. It's miraculous. So I invite everyone to come one boat and try it out. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks spitter. Uh, out to you at the next work camp.Awesome.
How to Build the Best WordPress LMS Websites For Clients for Maximum Fun and Profit through Effective Visual Communication with Vito Peleg from WP FeedBack
LMScast with Chris Badgett
Learn how to build the best WordPress LMS websites for clients for maximum fun and profit through effective visual communication with Vito Peleg from WP FeedBack in this episode of the LMScast podcast hosted by Chris Badgett from LifterLMS. If you build WordPress LMS websites for clients and you’re trying to make the feedback process easier when working with revision requests, this LMScast is a great conversation to listen to. Both Vito and Chris started out in the WordPress space as freelancers and have since moved on to the product entrepreneur side of the space. Vito shares his progression from starting out building his first website at 14-years-old through his 20 year journey to where he is today running WP FeedBack. Vito decided to pursue a career in music, and he and his band ended up touring the world and all over Europe with two albums worldwide. But when he found there was not a lot of money in the industry for him, he ended up falling back on his skills with building websites for clients and started an agency doing that. He was able to build up to six figures in his first year with his business, and by year three had 12 people in his agency. The largest issues his agency faced all came down to client communications. This led Vito to become obsessed with finding a solution and sprouted the idea for WP FeedBack. Chris also shares his story of how in 2007 he started blogging in his niche around outdoor leadership in Alaska. His blogging skills eventually developed into his skill set for building websites for clients. As a non-developer Chris was able to build great websites for clients using WordPress and eventually started his own agency focused on membership websites, online courses, training platforms, and coaching websites. And then he and his partners ended up building LifterLMS on top of that as a solution. Vito and Chris talk about some best practices for freelancers and agencies building websites for clients, how you can best position yourself and your clients to get the most out of your interactions by simplifying the process, and how that can save a tremendous amount of time. To learn more about Vito Peleg and how you can make your process of reviewing websites and getting client feedback easier, be sure to check out WPFeedBack.co. At LifterLMS.com you can learn more about new developments and how you can use LifterLMS to build online courses and membership sites. If you like this episode of LMScast, you can browse more episodes here. Subscribe to our newsletter for updates, developments, and future episodes of LMScast. Thank you for joining us! This episode was sponsored by WP Tonic Managed WordPress LMS hosting. Click here to learn more, and use coupon code wptonichosting50 to save 50% on any annual plan. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Chris Badgett: You’ve come to the right place if you’re a course creator looking to build more impact, income, and freedom. LMScast is the number one podcast for course creators just like you. I’m your guide, Chris Badgett. I’m the co-founder of the most powerful tool for building, selling, and protecting engaging online courses called LifterLMS. Enjoy the show. Chris Badgett: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of LMScast. I’m joined by a special guest, Vito Peleg from wpfeedback.co. It’s a visual communication tool, so if you build WordPress LMS websites for clients and you’re trying to make it easier for your clients to communicate with you and do revision requests and have better conversations, we’ll get into that later in the episode. But first, Vito, welcome to the call. Vito Peleg: Hi. How are you doing, Chris? Thanks for having me. Chris Badgett: I’m excited for this conversation, because we’re going to go behind the curtain a little bit. I wanted to start with Vito and my story, how they’re kind of similar. We’re product people. I’ve got LMS software. You have a visual communication tool for people building WordPress sites. But, at the end of the day, we started as freelancers and it’s been a journey. What was your progression into getting into this whole website thing and how long has this journey been for you? Vito Peleg: Actually, the first website that I built, I was a literally 14 years old, just at home in my parents’ place. Chris Badgett: How long ago was that? Vito Peleg: That was 20 years last month. It was a skateboarding website for my crew back in the day, on GeoCities, if you remember that platform. Then I left that aside because I wanted to be a musician. So I pursued that for a lot of years, and that one actually got me back into it eventually. Vito Peleg: I had band and we were touring the world. It was doing pretty well. We were touring all over Europe. We did two albums worldwide and stuff like that. But the problem was that there was no money in it. We were touring and playing in front of people, but still, we couldn’t make ends meet. So, I started building websites for clients, literally from the back of the van while we were touring the world on the road. That was my start. That was the beginning of my web design business as a freelancer. Vito Peleg: Then, once we turned 30 and it wasn’t really cool to hang out with four other smelly guys in a van anymore, that’s when we stopped that part. Then I said, “All right, let’s see how big I can make this thing.” I started growing that agency. I was a freelancer at first. Within the first year, we got to six figures in revenue here in London. Within year three, I already had a team of 12 guys in my agency. Vito Peleg: Through our problems and through my struggles of scaling past 10, 12 people, I found that no matter where I looked, all our problems came down to client communications. That’s what was wasting most of the profits within the agency. I became obsessed with finding a solution for this. We tried everything, and then we ended up building our own, which exploded now. That’s what is WP FeedBack. Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. And just for the listener, if you don’t know my story, the quick version is similar to Vito’s. In 2007, I started blogging, just for myself and a niche outdoor leadership. I was actually living in Alaska. A lot of the stuff I did, there wasn’t even a cell phone signal where I lived. And over time, I wanted to be able to live anywhere in the world and have location freedom, so I developed the skillset of building websites for clients. Chris Badgett: After I learned, “Hey, this is not that hard. I’m a non-developer. I can build sites using WordPress.” I evolved from freelancer into agency owner and then we focused our agency on the membership site, online course, training platform, coaching industry and really focused there and grew, and then later built a product off the back end of that. So it’s a very similar story. Vito Peleg: Yeah, very much. Chris Badgett: But these two gentlemen that are talking to you today aren’t product people. I mean, we are product people but we didn’t just start with product. Our DNA is in the freelancer and the agency. Vito Peleg: I would even say that this is the natural progression if you want to scale things up. I see a lot of product people that jump to these stages. They didn’t serve people, they didn’t do the agency part of it. They have a lot harder growing the product and getting that traction compared to us, because product is like the easy life compared to the agency world. Chris Badgett: Yeah. Vito Peleg: So, once you go through that day, this is just a walk in the park. Chris Badgett: Yeah. I can hear in my head. It’s almost like, from working with so many clients, you develop this empathy and you kind of feel the pains and the frustrations and that really informs product. So if you look at Vito with WP FeedBack, it’s had a lot of success quickly. But I know you have all these voices in your head and real conversations that you have with that. Chris Badgett: You really understand the pain points that some of these people building sites for clients and having it become a successful project, it’s not something you have to go out and research because you live and breathe it for so long. Vito Peleg: Exactly. You are the target audience. Chris Badgett: Yeah. Yeah. So especially if it’s your first software product, that’s super helpful to scratch your own itch. I see people that do that, have higher odds of success than, “Oh, I see an opportunity over here to make money.” Vito Peleg: In a different market, yeah. Chris Badgett: But I don’t really … I’m not zen with the problem. Vito Peleg: Exactly. Chris Badgett: That’s a big disadvantage. Vito Peleg: I’ll say more than that. We only have one life, so you better do something that you enjoy doing. If you’re solving a problem that you had, it’s a lot more powerful. I’ve been there before. I tried to jump into an industry and do whatever I wanted, try to make it work there. But then you find that there are people like us within this industry that has been there for more than 10 years and have the level of expertise and the level of knowledge within this unique niche that we will never have going into it from a fresh start. Vito Peleg: So yeah, I would say always look into your own experience to see what you can learn from there in order to take you to the next level, instead of starting something completely new. Chris Badgett: Yeah, that’s a great point. Well, for those people listening that build websites for clients that are thinking about doing that, especially in the online training niche, there’s this pain point when you work with an expert … and I’ve worked with a lot of them from like yoga to real estate to business to personal development, all these different niches where there’s … Chris Badgett: There’s a cognitive bias, to get a little geeky on you, called the fundamental attribution error, which means that if I am good at something, like building websites or dog training or yoga or real estate or whatever it is, that I think, since I’m good at that I’ll, I’ll be good at this other thing too and be able to do it. There’s this tension between- Vito Peleg: The Michael Jordan effect. Chris Badgett: What is it called? Vito Peleg: The Michael Jordan effect, where he thought it can do everything. Chris Badgett: Yeah. There you go. That’s a good name for it too. But the website builder, is good at building websites and marketing and stuff like that, and the expert is really good at their thing and they’re like, “I just want a website. I want to be able to sell my course online or my membership site.” But then there’s this conflict that happens. Can you talk about that intersection? Vito Peleg: Yeah, sure. So this is actually something that people experience across the service industry or the sector even. It doesn’t really matter what you do, but when you’re serving people that are new to the topic that you’re actually delivering the service in, you’re going to find that the difference in reality is creating a lot of frictions. What I mean is that, when we look at a website, we don’t just see a website: we see the color scheme, we see the layout, we see the functions, we can the code through the screen. We basically see the matrix. Vito Peleg: But when one of our clients is looking at a website, all they see is a rectangular box with some colors inside, and that’s the beginning of … We need to start from there to really understand how to communicate with someone. If we realize that that’s how they see what we’re seeing in 3D or through the matrix, as I like to call it, then it’s a lot easier to communicate with that. Because then, all of this nonsense about, oh my god, this guy doesn’t understand what the hell I’m talking about. He’s got to be stupid or something like that.” You kind of take on that responsibility, as the service provider, to understand that it’s something that we need to deal with and we need to eat that complication for the client so that it’s a smooth process for them. Vito Peleg: Instead of forcing them into some kind of a technological process that we create … as techies, we like to complicate things. We love complicated systems. That’s part of our thing. But on the other side, like you said, there is a real estate guy or a yoga instructor or like we talked before, a dog trainer that’s doing an online course, why would they know how to approach this project from the beginning? So, that is the initial essence of what our tool is trying to solve. This is where we started this, and then we started looking at the two types of people: the clients that have no idea how to look at a website and the developer that has a lot of technical needs to actually deliver this project. Chris Badgett: I just wanted to talk about, there’s two types of people out there. You have a choice. To make it really dramatic, you have to choose hate or love. If we take it out of this industry and look at something different, just as an example, if we look at building houses … or let’s say you’re building a house with a builder or you’re doing a remodel or something, you’ll hear people say things like, “Oh, everybody hates their contractor by the time it’s done.” Or, if you’re in the building industry, you’ll hear people say like, “Clients, homeowners are terrible. They’re awful.” In between these two, a business exists. Vito Peleg: Yes. Chris Badgett: If you have good clients, and as a freelancer agency, if you have love in your heart and there’s this big divide between our different realities, there’s a huge opportunity. Vito Peleg: Oh, that’s so true. Chris Badgett: Yeah. Vito Peleg: Now it all clicks. Like what you mean there, because if you start from the hate, then the entire process is just a nightmare. Why would we do it to ourselves? Why would we not love the other side? You know? That’s a great point. Chris Badgett: Yeah. It’s easy to … In the web industry, you’ll hear people complaining about clients. If you’re a freelancer or agency owner, you’ll hear people coming in to your services asking questions, and they talk about how they had such a bad experience. Their trust is down. They’re a little jaded. They’re upset. They need a little more help from you to trust them, which is actually a big opportunity in how you can position yourself in an industry just like home construction, when you build websites where you can have a better way and present a better future and a better working relationship. Vito Peleg: I agree. I think that if we look at it, even from the contractor point of view, it all comes down to the communication. So, if you have a contractor that tells you that things will be late before they are late, then it wouldn’t be as hard as to hear it like three months after you missed the deadline. That’s a miscommunication and that’s usually what happens with contractors, right? Vito Peleg: Or if something is not going to be delivered on time or if something needs a little more attention than it should have, that lack of communication is what breaks down most relationships in this world. I even like to look at this, if you bring it down to the most basic aspect of it, it’s a game of catch. If I throw the ball at you and you don’t catch it, you’re going to blame me that I threw it wrong. Right? “You don’t want me to catch it. You just threw it over there.” You get upset, I get upset, because we have no game and everyone is pissed off at each other. Vito Peleg: The point is to try and get to a scenario, a system, where when you throw the ball to the other side, they want to catch it and they can catch it because they can actually see it and it’s within their reality. Chris Badgett: Yeah, that’s awesome. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about the problem of lingo and words. If you’re building a house, the contractor’s going to know all the names of all these parts that you have never ever heard of. Same happens with a website where, if the web person starts talking about PHP and CSS3 and all this stuff and what they’re going to do with the templates, the client doesn’t necessarily have the skills or they don’t have the lingo. They don’t understand it. Vito Peleg: Yeah. And why would they? They shouldn’t. Chris Badgett: No, that’s why they’re hiring you. But they also may need some help figuring out what they want, so you kind of have to anticipate … You need to ask them questions in ways that they can understand to help pull out, so that your best guests becomes the website. And then you need to have a conversation over that. Can you tell us about visual communication versus verbal? Like words? Vito Peleg: Sure. So, that’s what we found. When we did all of these testing around all of the different options which are to communicate with clients, we found that visual communication works best, because you can explain something not only with words, like you’re describing. You can something. So, sharing your screen or having a video call … Even us, even now that we’re doing this conversation right now, even though it’s going to be recorded mostly for sound, it’s nice to see you. It brings a lot into this conversation, the fact that we can see each other and have that communication visually. Vito Peleg: The idea is to take this concept into the website and bring it to the point where the client can actually point at something and tell you what they need changed and what they want to do. That’s why, when you have that delivery process that has the sitemap as the architectural event at the beginning, if we’re going back to the construction example, you start by communicating that basic aspect of what the structure would be. That’s the blueprint or the site map in our case. Vito Peleg: Then you go on to do the prototype, which are the foundations of the building, so they can also see another step of what’s been going on. Giving those visual stimulations is a lot stronger than telling them, “Listen, we’re going to have a home page and we’ll three custom post types with two taxonomies and it’s going to have five categories in each.” The guy already lost you. But when they see it as a flow chart in the visual side map, that just all clicks instantly. Vito Peleg: So, bringing a lot of visual aspect into the relationship definitely helps in communicating any aspect of that process to the client. I would even say more than that, that when it comes to a, these small bits and pieces that we have to ask for, like what is the screen size that you’re on? What is the browser version that you’re on? So you ask what the browser is and they tell you, “Browser? Yes, I’m using a desktop.” Right? That’s the answer. Vito Peleg: So, trying to not get into these conversations, not needing to ask these questions, actually will help you a lot in your relationship. Asking for screenshots, asking for URLs, this is not something that most people that don’t sit in front of a screen all day long know what the hell we’re talking about. So, we’ve got to start from there and keep the lingo out. It’s not for them. It’s for us in these kinds of talks where we can openly talk about custom post types in the LMS, even that’s term, I guess. Chris Badgett: Yeah. When you have love for a client as opposed to hate, you realize that it’s going to be a process, not an event, to deliver a website for a client. Vito Peleg: Sure. Chris Badgett: If you navigate the client expectations of, “Hey, we’re going to have these revision cycles and it’s going to be an iterative process, where the website evolves, but I need your feedback as we go to make sure that we’re heading in the right direction and I’m getting insights from you. You’re learning from me how I think about building a great online experience through a website. But we need a better way to communicate.” So, WP FeedBack, just to get away from the lingo right now, go to WPfeedback.co to see what we’re talking about. Vito Peleg: Yeah. I would say, if we’re getting away from the lingo, I would describe it in a sentence as post-it notes for the live website. The simulation is like you’re pointing at the screen and telling the other side what’s up. It just binds that request to the deal so you know exactly where the request is. Chris Badgett: Yeah, and there’s two ways you can do it, too. You can just have the client do it as homework, like asynchronously, not at the same time. Or, when you’re having that review call with the client, you or somebody on your team can also be on the call, on the Zoom or however you’re communicating, and as the client is talking, you’re dropping these post-it notes or these pins to capture the feedback visually like, “Oh, they don’t like this.” You might even be translating what they’re saying: “Oh, we should add this over here. There’s a lot that can go on there. Vito Peleg: Yeah, and that can be passed on if that’s the process and the project manager, let’s say, is doing that, that can be passed on to the designer then to sort out, without having it in a spreadsheet or a list. But what we recommend is actually, asking the client to do this. We designed it in a way that would be approachable for the most illiterate technological clients, so that when they see the website, they see this big plus button and we train them with just one sentence, “Please click the plus icon and choose any element on the website to tell us what you need.” That’s it. Vito Peleg: So even though I said that videos work best for us, the disadvantages that we found there is that when you have this conversation face to face, usually what happens is that after you do a few changes, if you do the changes in real time, then the client quickly becomes the navigator of this conversation, and his hand is basically placed on yours. He’s moving the mouse and you’re just doing the work. That’s really bad for creativity. We wanted to get that out of the way. Vito Peleg: So, you can tell them, “There is a revision. Okay. Now we’re done with the initial design, go to the website, click the plus icon and choose any element on the website. Tell us what you need.” They’re going to sprinkle those stickers all around the site. Then you go back, you close that process, and then you go through all the changes in one go. It’s just super efficient from that aspect, because you have it where you need it instead of looking for it in fragmented emails and stuff. Chris Badgett: Keep listening. This podcast is not over. This is just a special message about this episode sponsor WP Tonics, managed WordPress LMS hosting. Think of it as everything you need to have a professional online course training platform right out of the box, ready to go. Find out more about WP Tonics, managed WordPress LMS hosting by going to lifterlikes.com/tonic. Now, back to the show. Chris Badgett: Yeah, just to highlight that efficiency, if you don’t do it this way, the painful way to do it is to send a link to some development site by email to your client, like, “Hey, let me know what you think.” Vito Peleg: Yes. Chris Badgett: And then you get back paragraphs of stuff or- Vito Peleg: Nothing. Chris Badgett: … you ump on a call and do it live and you do it at the same time where they’re just talking about it and you’re trying to figure out what they mean by that, that’s really painful. But if you do it asynchronously and you do it visually, they may take an entire week or weekend to slowly and methodically go through. There’s no pressure, like all right we’ve only got 30 minutes or an hour for the call. They could take as much time as they want and then the feedback lands. When there’s not that pressure of where meeting and like you said … I love that analogy of having somebody’s hand over your hand moving the mouse. Vito Peleg: Yeah. Chris Badgett: It can go too fast, and maybe it becomes harder … Sometimes, as a web professional, you need to push back and be like, “I hear your feedback there, but have you considered that making your logo 10 times bigger or whatever might actually hurt the user experience on your website.” Vito Peleg: Exactly. It’s not about accepting everything, it’s about giving them the opportunity to be heard. With every customer service. That’s what people want. They just want to be heard, even if you don’t do what exactly what they ask for, because you have a different way, a better way. So, I agree. This is kind of the essence of it. In terms of the timing around the revision round, what we found is that if you don’t put a time cap on it, it just lingers. It just stays, for sometimes even years. Now, with our customers, with our users, we heard of stories that people waited years to get feedback back, just because they didn’t give them the right process or the right system. They didn’t give the client the right system to actually deliver the content in an easy way or the revision. Vito Peleg: Do limit this. What we like to do is we give it seven days because like you said, a lot of people like to do it over the weekend. They take the time with it. So we give them seven days. That’s the revision round. If there’s nothing after the seven days, then it’s done. We close this step within the build, because there’s still deadlines to maintain, so you can’t just let it go forever. Vito Peleg: But having that timeframe actually activates the client, because we all need deadlines in life, in order for us to do actions. That’s a great way of nurturing that. Yeah, once you get the stuff, you just get the notifications saying that people have done it, that the other side has done it, then you just turn it off for them, you start working on your side. Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. I have a question for the advanced user out there who’s like, all right … They’re trying to put together their package. We do this type of membership site for clients. It comes with, this is our like discovery process. This is our build process. This is our revision process. This is our deployment process. Once you become advanced as a freelancer or agency, you start developing these clear systems that you use. Chris Badgett: But when it comes to revisions, I love that idea of, we’re going to go through a revision cycle. Your project came with three, or two or whatever it is. We’re going to go: week one, revision one, week two, revision two, whatever the cadence is. What happens or what advice do you have for people in terms of quantity problems where, let’s say, they get way, way, way, a lot of feedback that’s like almost like we have to start over, versus somebody who gets like no feedback. Chris Badgett: It’s not like the perfect amount of feedback. We either … They don’t like it at all and everything’s just kind of on fire, or I have a client who’s being quiet, maybe I knocked it out of the park, or maybe they don’t know how to communicate or they’re scared to critique my work or something. Vito Peleg: Those are two great points and these are concerns whenever you go into a project. Having those systems in place, having discovery, our steps were, you do the discovery, then you do the sitemap, then you do prototype, then you do the build. Then you launched. This was the framework. So, each one of these had a deliverable and a signature by the client so that you can move on to the next step. This really helped us solve what you described, which we call the scope creep, right? Someone that just wants more and more stuff as the project goes along, and it never ends. Vito Peleg: We all fell into this hole at some point or another. It’s going to happen. But having these steps in place will … Okay, when you do the sitemap, you agree that these are all the pages. Any other pages are out of scope. It’s out to the project. You already agreed on what pages you’re going to have. Then when you do the prototype, you already agree what the layout is going to be like. So then, once you get to the actual revision process, the design revision process, then it should only be small bits and pieces. Vito Peleg: We never limited people on how many stuff they can send us, but like we said before, it doesn’t mean that we’re going to do all of it. If they want a massive logo, eh, that is taking 50% above the fold section, then no. If they want some colors that have problem with contrast and all these kinds of stuff, then no. There’s a better way of doing this and we’re going to provide a solution. I see us as, if the client presents a challenge or challenges the design, it’s not that this is what we need to do. It just means that something is bothering them there. Vito Peleg: But also, going to the beginning of understanding that their reality is different, probably the way that they describe it or the solution that they have in mind is not as good as you would have if you just put your mind to it for just a few minutes. We’re taking feedback, but we’re giving our own solutions. This is actually something that I see now in the product world as well, Chris, when we get feature requests all the time. Chris Badgett: Yeah. Vito Peleg: You don’t do what they tell you. You think of the concept of what led to that problem of them needing this feature, and then you build it within your own vision or your own North style, is I like to call it. So yeah, we’re just solution givers at the end of the day. That’s the game. I think that answered the question. Chris Badgett: That’s good. I had an idea pop into my head as you were talking as well, which is, you could say, “It’s going to be this week up to 10 hours of development hours revision.” That way, you’ve literally capped the downside of that. But then that leads to the next question, which goes back to love versus hate. Vito Peleg: Yeah. Chris Badgett: Do you love scope creep? Most people would say no. Do you hate scope creep? Most people will say yes. It’s the bane of my existence. Vito Peleg: Right. Chris Badgett: If you put your stuff in the right parameters as a freelancer or agency owner, you love it, because that means more money. Vito Peleg: More work. Exactly. Chris Badgett: And if you navigate a client early, like this is how it works, you’re going to discover things and later you’re going to be like, “Hey, can you move this wall over here in the house?” We’d be like, “That’s scope creep, but that’s extra $30 thousand dollars or whatever it is.” Vito Peleg: Exactly. Chris Badgett: That way they’re not surprised when it happens. That doesn’t mean you don’t throw in little bonuses to just delight them. Vito Peleg: You want to deliver a little bit. Chris Badgett: But if you do it too much, it becomes a big problem. Vito Peleg: I totally agree. These steps are there to just define, this wall is here so that when this comes, you can confidently charge that extra 30K like you said, eh. So yeah, it’s very important to have this, but you actually want these clients. You want people that are using their own website and that are engaging with you and that are on it, because these are people that will actually build a business online, compared to the other people that … A lot of people think that you just splash a website on the Internet and that’s it. I’m a millionaire the day after. Right? Vito Peleg: So, getting the people that understand that it’s work, that you’re building, like building a physical shop, just online. It will be a digital school instead of a physical school, then these are the ones that will come back and build more landing pages, add more features to the membership area, create multi-lingual or create multicurrency functions in the future. All of these awesome upsells that we’re looking for when we’re trying to run a business longterm. Chris Badgett: Yeah, because what people really want, especially if they’re already moving and successful with their expertise, is they want a technology partner, not just somebody to throw up a website. I mean, if done well, they could be with you for a long time. Vito Peleg: Yeah. For years. We have clients that we did their first website and we’re growing together. They were just a guy in a room and now they have offices and stuff and so do we. Yeah, that’s the fun part of it, when you look back and you see those clients that stuck with you, and that relationship didn’t go bad at some point, which unfortunately you will have some that it will. Chris Badgett: Yeah. Part of that too is just a qualifying or leads or figuring out who you want to help and serve. For example, this is why the opportunity is so awesome in the online learning industry, is because the website is the business, or at least a part of the business. It’s not just a brochure. So this is something that’s very valuable to the client. Vito Peleg: Yes. They have to generate revenue. Chris Badgett: It is, which makes it really valuable. And if you have expertise in that area, and you can remove friction and help them … be their technology person, that’s there’s a ton of value and mutually beneficial for you, them, and their client or students or whatever. Vito Peleg: I agree. It’s such a growing industry as well. The online courses is just exploding at the moment isn’t it? Chris Badgett: It is huge. If you focus on a niche, like dog training or yoga or a business, whatever it is, if somebody is already, let’s say, a speaker or running these workshops or live events and they’re tired of living on planes and sleeping in hotels or whatever, and they’re trying to automate and bring things online, that’s a really good client, because they’ve already got money, they’ve already proven they can help people with their expertise. There’s a lot of value you can add to each other. Vito Peleg: For sure. I think that comes to what we just said right in the beginning, where if you find those people that you know that they are legit, that they leave their niche and they, this is what they, they live and breathe, then you know that there is an actual potential there. You see that with clients through an agency all the time, the ones that just try to jump into something that they’ve never touched before, or the people that swim within this industry for decades before they took that step of going on their own. It’s a clear path to success when you do that. Chris Badgett: Another great thing too with working with somebody who’s already moving and making money is, in their way, they’re an entrepreneur as well. It’s not just an idea. They’re already moving. There’s going to be a, some mutual understanding of how the process works. Even things like, it’s not about what I like or you like, it’s about what the customer likes and what they want and need. Entrepreneurs figure that lesson out. It’s not about our preferences. Vito Peleg: Yeah. It’s not our preference or what the neighbor’s wife said. Chris Badgett: Yeah. There’s more of an open mind there. Well that’s awesome. Tell us anything about WP FeedBack that you think makes it super special. I don’t know, any other final thoughts for the people that are building LMS websites for clients? They want to use WordPress for that. What are your thoughts for the people whose curiosity we’ve peaked in this conversation? Vito Peleg: I think that the first thing to really consider is the fact that 94% … We did our research before starting this thing, and we surveyed 600 WordPress professionals to see how they run their own business. We found that 94% of the ecosystem are using emails still to do all of these communications with clients. It’s either emails or spreadsheets or Word documents, but it always goes back to that email, to that inbox. Vito Peleg: Email is a 30 year old tool that we’re using as our main driver of business. We don’t have any other tools in our toolbox that are 30 years old. Something needs to evolve from there. The point about WP FeedBack is that we’re trying to look at that communication process from the web designer, from the WordPress web designers, point of view. Vito Peleg: So, a lot of the features are there to systemize the way that you communicate. Even small stuff like the one click log-in from the dashboard, when you’re doing websites at scale, and when we have in the agency, every team member who goes into five to 10 different websites every day. Logging in is two or three minutes each. Then it adds up to a few hours every single week. When you have a team of 12, then it’s already a salary by the end of the month, right, of people logging in and out of websites. That’s how crazy it is when you really think about this. Vito Peleg: But also the back and forth and wandering around the websites trying to figure out where that page is that the client described, what that section is, that misprint that they told you that there is on the third page somewhere. Bringing it into the website is a completely different way of doing this that just solves this problem as a whole. Vito Peleg: I like to look at this like … Chris, we started building websites a long time ago, before we had page builders and a host and these kinds of tools. We did everything manually. We actually wrote the code, the HTML, we added the CSS, we added the metatags to do the SEO and all these kinds of stuff. Now, these tools have systemized the process, and that’s what WP FeedBack does to your service delivery. It systemizers that entire process in the same way that before page builders, we built a site with a page in 10 hours, now it takes 30 minutes. That’s the kind of impact that we’re seeing here, which is … Vito Peleg: It was mind blowing to me as well, when we actually started using it like that. So yeah, we’re seeing about three hours saved per week, per team member, and reducing two weeks from your project completion time, which means that you’re getting paid faster. It’s just the right way of doing it, as far as I see. In a couple of years, there’s not going to be any other way. Chris Badgett: Man, I wish I could take you back in time to an earlier version of myself with this tool. Go check out of you. WPFeedback.co. Vito, I want to thank you for coming on the show, and it’s great to be on the journey with you. Vito Peleg: Thanks a lot, Chris. Well, when we started the process, I reached out to you when I just, just started and asked you some questions about the product world, and you were super helpful. So yeah, I’m proud to be here on the show and thanks for having me. Chris Badgett: You bet. That’s a wrap for this episode of LMScast. I’m your guide, Chris Badgett. I hope you enjoyed the show. This show was brought to you by LifterLMS, the number one tool for creating, selling, and protecting engaging online courses to help you get more revenue, freedom, and impact in your life. Head on over to lifterlms.com and get the best gear for your course creator journey. Let’s build the most engaging, results-getting courses on the Internet. The post How to Build the Best WordPress LMS Websites For Clients for Maximum Fun and Profit through Effective Visual Communication with Vito Peleg from WP FeedBack appeared first on LMScast - LifterLMS Podcast.
Growing Your Network through Community Involvement with Vito Peleg
How I Built It
Vito Peleg runs a very popular WordPress plugin called WP Feedback, but did you know he also runs a community under the same name? In this episode we talk all about the importance of community in growing your business. Now, during this episode we talk a lot about in-person events, and as I record this intro, there aren’t a whole lot of events going on right now. But digital communities are on the rise and they can be just as powerful. Take Vito’s advice to heart because it’s good, and important! … Growing Your Network through Community Involvement with Vito PelegRead More » Transcript Vito Peleg: As a way of generating a bit of extra income, I started building websites from the van while we were on tour, and that was my first few freelance gigs. From there, it took off, and once the band split up and once we turned 30 and we had enough white hair to stop that, I started looking into “OK. What can I do with this web design business? How can I grow this up?” Within the first deal, I got to six figures with that business, and within three years, I had a team of twelve guys. Intro: Hey, everybody. Welcome to episode 162 of How I Built It, the podcast that asks, “How did you build that?” Today I’m talking to Vito Peleg. He runs a very popular WordPress plugin called WP Feedback. But did you know that he also runs a community under the same name? In this episode, we talk all about the importance of community in growing your business. Now during this episode, we do talk a lot about in-person events, and as I recorded this intro, there is a global pandemic going on, so there are not a lot of in-person events going on right now. But digital communities are on the rise, and they can be just as powerful, and they can help you connect with people all across the globe. Take Vito’s advice to heart because it’s good and important, and in these times where we feel a little bit more isolated than normal, know that a digital community can help you make connections and grow your business and learn a little more about people from everywhere. Break: This episode is brought to you by Ahrefs. Ahrefs is an all-in-one SEO toolset that solves that problem. It gives you the tools you need to rank your website in Google and get tons of search traffic. As someone who struggles with what kind of content to create or what’s ranking best in Google, or anything SEO-related, Ahrefs has been instrumental in increasing traffic to my website over the holidays. I had my best quarter for affiliate income because Ahrefs showed me my most popular pages and topics, and I was able to optimize my content and my gift guides and update them accordingly. I would have never updated one of my gift guides because I didn’t think it was that popular, and Ahrefs showed me it is my most popular page. Ahrefs makes competitive analysis easy as well. Their tools show you how your competitors are getting traffic from Google and why. You can see the pages and content that send them the most search traffic, find out exactly the keywords they’re ranking for, and which backlinks are helping them rank. From there, you can replicate or improve on their strategies. Now, as I said, I don’t think I’m getting significant search traffic, so I use Ahrefs tools to help find topics worth creating pages or content for. I can easily see estimated search volumes and gauge traffic potential with their keyword explorer tool. It’s been a fantastic addition to my toolkit. Just this morning, I learned that My Everyday Carry
In today's podcast episode, Rob Cairns; CEO/Chief Creator of Amazing Ideas at StunningDigitalMarketing; talks to Vito Peleg who is the founder of WP Feedback. Sit back, relax and enjoy this great conversation.
#468 WP-Tonic Show With Special Guest Vito Peleg The Founder of WPfeedback
WP-Tonic Show A WordPress Podcast
The Main Topic of The Show is: "How To Move From Freelancer Agency Owner Successfully!" More About Vito We Discuss How To Move From Freelancer To Agency Owner Successfully! Today is a very special day, well for me at least – on one hand it’s exciting to celebrate the launch of a new company, on the other hand, it feels like a summary of everything I’ve done for the past 19 years. We created a full announcement for WP Feedback and how it can help you save time while serving your clients in a new, visual and exciting way, but here, I’d like to take a few minutes to tell you my story. About a kid from a small town, in a tiny country, that wanted to be a rockstar and discovered a passion for design, business and WordPress. Music, business and websites I built my first website 19 years ago on GeoCities when I was 14 years old, it was scrappy and extremely bright coloured. I made it for my skateboarding crew with my friends from school. I remember how exciting it was to simply go online. Back then, when ever we connected to the internet it would take over the land line for the entire family, so I was only allowed to connect for just 1 hour per day. So I spent the days fiddling with Front Page, just waiting for my 1 hour to upload the code and share the updates with my MIRC friends (kinda like a Stone Age version of Facebook). That’s about the time I also picked up a guitar for the first time. I borrowed a cheap electric guitar from a friend to learn on my own and impress a girl I liked. But that first day was so inspiring I ended up sleeping with the guitar next to me in bed. It was love at first chord. https://wpfeedback.co/business-wordpress-rocknroll-the-story-of-vito-peleg/ This week's show secondary sponsor is WPfeedback.co If you use this special coupon code WPTonicROCKS you will get 25% all plans available https://wpfeedback.co/