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Keith Perhac

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Latest 6 Nov 2021 | Updated Daily

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#104: Slicing and Dicing your leads, with Keith Perhac

If You Market

Sales is right, some of your leads are worthless, but others are worth-more.  In this episode of the If You Market podcast Keith Perhac gets out the lead measuring tape and shows us how to identify your best and worst lead sources. It's all about identifying and maximizing the channels and metrics that are giving you the best results. Keith is the host of the podcast Data Beats Opinion and founder of SegMetrics, which he built from his own frustrations when trying to track and measure leads. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices


3 Nov 2020

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Episode 34: The Contraindications of Key Performance Indicators with Keith Perhac

MicroConf On Air

Keith is the founder of SegMetrics, helping founders understand their true lead value using a data backed approach. On Air, Keith and Rob discuss why your KPI's might be setting up blinders as your create a marketing strategy for your businesses, how outliers can create a new train of thought in your marketing plan, and how to identifying strategies that can truly move the needle in testing conversions. Keith Perhac has delivered a few talks at MicroConf, from his first Attendee Talk back in 2015 to his keynote presentation at MicroConf Starter in 2017. You can check out his talks here: https://microconf.com/speakers/keith-perhac MicroConf Connect ➡️ http://microconfconnect.comTwitter ➡️  https://twitter.com/MicroConfE-mail ➡️ support@microconf.com MicroConf 2020 Headline Partners Stripehttps://stripe.comTwitter ➡️ https://twitter.com/Stripe Basecamphttps://basecamp.comTwitter ➡️ https://twitter.com/Basecamp TRANSCRIPT Rob Walling: [00:00:00] And we are live. Welcome to MicroConf On Air.  Every Wednesday we livestream for about 30 minutes and we cover topics related to building and growing ambitious SaaS startups. These are startups that don't need to work 80 hour work weeks, raise millions in venture capital, or drive us to the brink of burnout. In this show, we seek freedom, purpose, and relationships, and we want to maintain those values while building interesting companies that can have an impact on the world, or maybe just our little corner of it.  So thank you so much for joining me again this week, whether you're joining us live and maybe you're in MicroConf Connect, and you're going to be asking some questions of our guest today, or even if you're listening asynchronously on the podcast feed that's microconfpodcast.com or search for MicroConf On Air in any podcatcher that you use. Today I have the pleasure of, uh, bringing a Keith Perhac on the show. You may know Keith, as the founder of SegMetrics. Yeah. And he is , hailing from the Portland area. So it's a little smoky outside his house right now. But  Segmetrics.io If you want to check it out.  They're a team of about 10 people in the growth stage.  I was talking to him  beforehand about how can we give people a sense of, of where the company is? , and he said, "Look, we have product market fit and we're in the growth stages. We're starting to grow quickly. "  If you go to SegMetrics.io, you can see their H1.  In essence, SegMetrics is a tool that helps you get 100% clarity on where your leads come from, how they behave and how much your marketing is really worth.  It allows you to get a handle on the KPIs that matter most for your marketing funnels is built by marketers for marketers. And today, Keith and I are going to be talking about how KPIs can be misleading when optimizing your marketing. So Keith Perhac. Welcome to MicroConf On Air. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:01:43] Hey, Hey Rob. Thanks for having me. Rob Walling: [00:01:46] Absolutely, man, um, that sky's look kind of clear from what I can see reflecting in your window as the air quality improved up there. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:01:54] It's not bad right now. It was really bad last night. It was kind of bad this morning. Uh, we'll see. It's really weird, you know, as the sun starts to set at and at like three o'clock it looks like an apocalypse out there at two o'clock. It looks like it's nighttime almost. So knock on wood that it's getting better. Rob Walling: [00:02:11] Yeah for future. If you're listening to this in a year, this, these are the great, uh, fires, the Pacific Northwest and California happening and fall of 2020. So if you are in MicroConf Connect to  go to the #microconf-on-air channel. And you can ask questions of Keith or myself, and we of course will tackle those live. But Keith, we're going to talk about how KPIs can be misleading  when you're optimizing your marketing, I'm going to define KPIs as , key performance indicators for folks who aren't fluent in an MBA speak. So I don't, I don't like KPIs.  [indescipherable]. Key Performance Indicator. I mean, they're, they're critical and they're needed in larger orbs. It's just the stuff. As a startup founder, I'm always like get out of my way. I want to know process, you know, um, key performance indicators are the critical indicators of progress towards an intended result. KPIs provide focus for strategic and operational improvement. They create an analyst basis for decision making and help focus attention on what matters most. And that is a definition I took from something on. Google. So its probably the little, the little inset with the questions, but to me, I've realized that it's like once Drip got acquired, went from a 10 person team up to a hundred person team, basically.  it's like each team needs something to focus on  and if it's numeric all the better. For customer success team, maybe it's it's NPS, or maybe it's churn, or maybe it's trial to paid conversion rate. And that's the, those are the key performance they might be looking at it. Sales, obviously it's going to be closed deals. Dollar amount of deals closed, MRR growth from sales. For engineering, those ones are always hard, right?  The CEO, when I left, was like, how can we measure engineering? And I'm like, well, it's not bug count and it's not number of features shipped. It's not lines of code shipped. So I'm very skeptical of, of KPIs with development teams. But that gives you an idea.  If you're listening out there and , you've heard KPI's, or you really didn't know what they are,  they're just numbers that help you kind of guide your business right. And to drive it forward. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:04:04] Yeah, I think that's, that's fully accurate. The one thing I would add on there is that the idea of KPIs is kind of like a scorecard . You don't want to have so many that you're just looking at a line of numbers. But at "some point you want to know, "Are we doing better or are we doing worse than we were last week or last month? Or last year?" And as SaaS founders, most of us are looking at MRR. That's our top key KPI. It's like, what's our MRR? Is it going up or is it going down? Rob Walling: [00:04:30] Yep. That was my top line KPI  too , when I was all my, when I was running all my SaaS companies and everything else, but then everything builds to that because then I would look at how many trials did we get this month? What is our trial to paid conversion rate? What is our churn? What is our net churn? What you know, and all those things contributed, but you're right. That number that it builds to is MRR it's growth rate.   Cool. So, um, first question of the day. All right. What are the main KPIs that people should be looking at in their marketing? Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:04:56] So this is always an interesting one for me, because it really depends on what you are trying to do with your marketing and what you're trying to improve. And so this number, this, what KPIs should you look at? It's something I get asked a ton, but it doesn't have a specific answer. But what I like to do is look at what you trying to accomplish. And usually that means, look at a funnel, look at a marketing funnel that you have. Let's take it from a SaaS perspective where we have an ad. We have maybe an opt in for some sort of white paper or a guide or an email marketing course. We have a nurture sequence. And then we start with the product or the trial after that. Um, some people skip right to the trial, but the idea is the same. You have a flow that people are going to go down . The main KPIs that you want to look for in a marketing funnel. Like this is how many people are coming in. So how many visitors are we getting? How many opt-ins are we getting? So what's that conversion rate? What's the conversion rate to paid? And then at the end, how much money are we making? And everything else comes back and can be calculated from these just four things. And I think the key number that you're looking for is from the number of people who come in. How much are they worth at the end of the funnel? And that's the number that you want to improve. So if I get a thousand people coming to my homepage and I made a thousand dollars, each person's worth a dollar. So then that, and that's my core KPI. I want to improve that number. And then as I look at different parts of that marketing funnel, that's when I'm going to be build out those secondary level KPIs. Right. So, you know, you were talking about, okay, each department has different KPIs that they're watching and monitoring. Well, if we're looking at improving the marketing funnel in that nurture sequence, then there's going to be different KPIs that we're looking at. We're going to be looking at email, open rates and click through rates and retention rates and unsubscribes and stuff like that. But that's not the core KPIs that we're looking at the top level. So when someone says, what KPIs am I looking for? It really matters. What's the goal? What are you trying to improve in your marketing funnel? And I said, I'd like to start at those, those top four or five. And then as we find a place that we're looking to optimize breakdown and break down into KPIs for that initiative. Rob Walling: [00:07:24] That makes a lot of sense.  I would follow along with that, those KPIs of that funnel as well.  What do you see as the number one issue then when people start looking at marketing KPIs? Because I mean, I think our title is kind of saying, Hey, KPIs can be misleading or there can be counter indications or people maybe misuse them. So what do we mean? What do you mean by that? You know, when you're, when you're saying that they can be misused or misunderstood. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:07:48] I think that people think that KPIs are because it's in all the MBA books everyone's talking about, Oh, what are your KPIs? It's the number one thing that everyone thinks they need to focus on. And I don't believe that. I believe that KPIs are kind of like what you were saying is a great indicator of how you're doing. Are you improving or are you not improving? Right. Are you going up? Are you going down? And that's all they are. They are a great measurement of where you are at any point in your marketing or in your founder and your SaaS journey. However, they don't really tell you anything other than I'm doing better or worse than I was last week. Right. And that's the key problem that I think a lot of people have when they're starting to look at KPIs. So two key problems, one, they look at too many. They're like, they forget the key. They're just like performance indicators. So like, okay, we need to know how many leads and how many people opened emails and how many clicks and how many people click this one little link and how many people are named Sally on Tuesdays. And like, these are all the numbers that we think we need to know. No. And as soon as you start measuring all of them, you have lost any key performance indicator. And so the rule of thumb that I always go to is. You want five at the most, you want five key performance indicators for any department or any initiative. Right? So for example, if you're the CEO you want probably how much is revenue going up or down?  Rob Walling: [00:09:22] CEO would be, but it might be net profit or it might be money in the bank. Right. There's yeah. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:09:27] And then you have your marketing department and your marketing department has other goals. And then your ad department has a different set of goals, probably around ad spend and cost per acquisition. But the CEO doesn't need to know, okay, what's our ad spend versus cost per acquisition right now. It's not his key focus. He has someone in charge to look at that. And I think that that's the main problem that people come to, which is they just want. They think this is important. So it's a key performance indicator. Rob Walling: [00:09:57] Okay. So too many. So that's the number one issue you see is just too many. Now you mentioned something to me about outliers and that how important outliers can be. Is it outlier, KPIs, or just outlier numbers are when trying to measure your marketing Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:10:10] Outliers in general. And this goes back to, I think what I've kind of feel is the second problem with KPIs is that people think that they can then improve their business by looking at those KPIs. Alright, so let's take the MRR, um, example and we're like, okay. We had a huge dip in MRR. Okay. Well we know why, because a bunch of people canceled, but what did that tell us. That didn't tell us anything. We just know that we're doing worse. So people have this idea of, okay, I'm measuring the KPIs. Now I know what to do to improve the business. And that's not it at all. It's like a speedometer. It just tells you kind of where you are. It doesn't tell you any problems that are going on. . So with outliers, what I always say is from that KPI, you want to find the breakdown of people who are doing really well at that KPI and people who are doing really poorly at that KPI. So it's a standard one I think of is conversion rate because I'm a conversion rate optimization guy. I've been doing this for years. Let's say you have a marketing funnel, you have a conversion rate of 50% on that funnel. So 50% of people who come into that funnel convert. Awesome. You are doing great, but let's look at drilling it down one. So you have two traffic sources. You have Google ads and you have Facebook ads. And let's say Google ads are converting at a hundred percent. And Facebook ads are converting at 0%. Well, suddenly that 50% great number now has a whole different spin on it. Right. We're seeing now that we're wasting all of this money on Facebook ads, because zero of them are converting. This is not a hypothetical. This is something that we actually came to in SegMetrics, where we found that Facebook ads had a cost per acquisition of $800. And our Google ads had a cost per acquisition of $60. And it's like, okay, well we know where we're going to go with it. And Facebook doesn't tell you, Oh, you this, because they only see their own data. Right. They're not letting right. You're not able to see this data. Rob Walling: [00:12:11] Right. That's fascinating. So I have a couple of questions. I think one, one comment I want to make is like, when I look at Amazon reviews, for example, like I can look at a review for a new spatula , a garlic press or something. And I can see that it's like, A three and a half star, which isn't very good. Right. But I always dig into the reviews and look at what are the one star reviews. And there's often a bunch of one stars that are like, this was delivered late. And this thing, when I tried to bang a nail with it, it didn't drive it in. And that broke, you know, and then you'll see there's a bunch of five star views in the, and the. Knowing that it's three and a half is actually not super helpful. It's helpful at, at a high level, but knowing the details of why there are ones and what people like and dislike about it, I think are important. And that's kind of what you're saying here is mixing these numbers. I see this with, um, I've seen this with churn where everybody groups, Hey, my churn number, my monthly churn right now is 5%. And it's like, Oh, what's your churn for, you know, the first month? Uh, or the first 60 days or what's for the first 60 days of this particular cohort, you know, you can drill down those numbers are harder to get too. I think today with dashboards, like ProfitWell, Baremetrics, ChartMogul, they're easier, but , it's hard to fully understand it and yeah, until you really get in and are able to drill down to that level, you're here often kind of looking at this aggregated data, which while that's sometimes the best we can do as marketers, it's kinda, it's kind of dangerous. And that's what you're saying. Right. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:13:35] Exactly exactly. And let's, let's take that Churn number. So I think a lot of people have realized recently that churn initial just the top level churn is not, not a valid metric because your churn in the first month is going to be so much higher than standard churn. And especially when you have a trial or something like that, that turn really doesn't. Count, I guess, but let's look at it one different way, which is okay. So now we know we're going to ignore churn for the first 30 days. We're only looking at what we'll call real churn. Well, now we want to know what's the churn of ads versus organic versus referrals, right? So now we've added a second level onto there, cause we still have that churn KPI, but we want to figure out, well, we have a 10% churn. Who's churning? Why are they churning? So. Where do we start asking questions? And this is what I think is really missing. And what's important for marketing analytics tools, which is being able to ask these questions and in real time where I'm saying, okay, I see I have a turn of 10%, is it okay? Where are these people coming from outlier there? So I look at my, my, uh, levels of churn for, out for a lead source and look at Google, uh, Facebook, organic, et cetera. And I say, okay, now they all look the same. Well, let's ask a different question. How about how far they get on the onboard and suddenly we see people who don't complete step two in the army boarding churn 20 times, as often as someone who completes up to step three. So being able to ask these questions in real time and just see a chart, right. Just see a list of numbers of, okay, now everything looks normal or, Oh, look, this outlier is there and this is either really good. So we want to spend more to do that, or this is really bad. So we want to fix that. And that's, to me, the power of those outliers, which is, when everything's good and everything's copacetic. Awesome. You're doing great, but that's not what you're going to do to improve. If everything's good, you don't have anything to do. But somewhere in that good is something that's not performing well or that's performing great. And you want to do more of that. Rob Walling: [00:15:44] Got it. That makes sense. And is that like, is there a major mistake that people make when they start to look at outliers? Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:15:51] I think they look at places. Where they don't have enough data yet, or they don't have focus. So one of the big ones that I see, especially with overall conversion rate optimization is so let's say we have that, that sales funnel let's do a product this time. And people say, I'm just not getting any sales. We need to optimize the sales page, this checkout page, where they put in the credit card information we really need, because that's closest to the money. It makes sense, really want to optimize that. It's like, okay. Yeah. There's a lot of things. We can change on this. A lot of things we can do to optimize this, how many people are coming to this page? Like five a week, like. Dude, you're never going to be able to opt out and ask because it's going to take, there's not enough data. So this is really the big issue that I see is people start way too far down the funnel. When they don't have any data. So the kind of rule of thumb I use is to work backwards from because you want to be as close to the money as possible, but work backwards from that. So start at, okay. Check out. Do we have enough traffic there to, do you have enough people coming to that page to make a difference? No, go to the next one. Sales page. How about there? No emails, no opt in page. Okay. We finally have enough people coming to the opt in page. But they're not converting. Okay. So let's fix that first and then lets fix the next one and then let's fix next one. And it's really, it is a funnel because the closest things you can get to the money are at the end. But if you don't have anyone coming in the top, it doesn't matter. Rob Walling: [00:17:24] That's interesting. Asia Orangio talks about starting your optimization at the bottom of the funnel, which makes sense, because if you get that working and as you work backwards and more people, you push through it, the more you're going to convert. But your point is until you have enough people you can't really improve, how can you really even know how to improve, right. How to test, right. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:17:46] Yeah. And I think there are of course, low hanging fruit that you can do on that checkout page. You could make sure it has a button. There's obvious things you can do at the beginning. At the bottom of the funnel to make sure that it is following best practices, it works right. But when you're looking to improve right. Rules of thumb, but when you're really looking to improve, when you're not, when you're looking for that next thing mean you have to move up the phone and you have to have enough traffic to be able to test because I've worked with a number of clients who are like, Hey, we want to test this button on the sales page. If it's red or it's blue, and this is a small change. And if you're not getting enough traffic, you're never going to get an answer to that question. But if you have something that has a 1000 or 2000 people coming to it, you're going to get that quick answer question. That question answered pretty quickly. Rob Walling: [00:18:32] You know, I remember I, I tweeted something , it was probably five years ago and it was just a random thought I had  I'd said like being a founder is making hard decisions with incomplete information. And then I said, I find most of the decisions I make it's like 80% is made on data. And 20% is like rules of thumb and gut feel or something like that. And someone came back, I don't know who it is, but he was like, no, a hundred percent data all the time. I make every decision with data. And I remember being like, well then how do you build a landing page when you have no traffic? You don't have data yet, you know, it's like that, that's what I was trying to imply. That is. I use, um, my rules of thumb or other people's rules of thumb to do the first cut at pretty much everything. You know, if it's an email that I'm going to send out, if it's a landing page, if it's a, a product or an ad campaign, it's like, how do you decide the first 10 images to test test when you have no data? You know, what 10 images should I test in the Facebook ad or whatever. And then once you have the data, of course, we're going to go with that, but there has to be something. So  gut feeling , I think comes from experience or  from, you know, an instinct or whatever. But I think the nice part is rules of thumb. You can often hear on, on shows like this are conversations with founders who have been doing it long enough that they have their own mental rules of thumb, right. Of what, where the conversion should be. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:19:44] And I think that that's also important when looking and it's, it's a dichotomy because marketing is part science as it's part database, and it's part art because you have to know. What to do and how people think.  It's almost like a, like applied psychology in a way. you have to understand how people think like you can see the data all day.  Organic is converting really well, where Facebook is not, but that doesn't tell you what you need to do to fix it. And that's where the art and the psychology and the understanding of those, and that comes with experience. And even the idea of like, okay, what should we look at to find those outliers? What are some things like, people aren't, they're coming on this webinar, but they're not converting. Well, Facebook ads are not converting because they weren't looking to purchase anything. They're not, it's like just thinking through that mental process of people in each of these modes, as they're coming through that funnel. And that's how you start getting those ideas of, well, what about this? Oh, what about this? And that's, I think how you build those outliers, how you start to identify people who, who are performing and who aren't performing, and then figure out how you can best tailor your messaging towards them. Rob Walling: [00:20:57] We have a question from the live audience so Rison Simon says, what is a good traffic number to start optimizing for conversion? So I think he's kind of asking like how much traffic do I need to start splitting thing?. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:21:12] Right.  So I generally have around a 100 people. Going through something before I, um, before I start optimizing it. So traffic wise, I would actually say that so traffic is different than optimization. So what I would say is if you have a hundred people filling out the form on a page, you are ripe for optimizing that opt-in. Yeah, 100 conversions at any step. Is what you should use to say, okay, I now have enough people to start testing this and going through this. Traffic wise, it's interesting because especially when you're split testing,  you have a calculation of how statistical significance of that test. And what we have seen is that when you have small changes, the statistical significance is generally very small. So if you change the wording on a button, a lot of times the change is very small. The difference is going to be very small and it's going to take a long time for you to figure out, okay, did this really move the needle? Where if you have a big change where it's like a completely different picture of a person or a person versus a robot, or like  H1 changes, right? So you're changing the key proposition of the page. These are tests that we see big differences in conversion rates, and you're able to get that statistical significance much quicker. Yeah. Never knew multi rate, uh, testing when you're, when you only have a little bit of traffic. Cause that will take you years. Rob Walling: [00:22:44] Never. Never. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, um, that's a big part of it, right? Is it's that experience level of, I know that if I change the headline or the design, like everything on it, that I'm going to have a dramatic difference. And I know that if I changed some wording in a body paragraph or I change one icon or I changed the button color from blue to red, the odds of me getting that big of a change are pretty low. So you need more traffic, you know, at that to make these tiny tweaks. I think that's a mistake. A mistake I've seen people make is not changing enough or not, not making drastic enough changes. And then you just let the test run for a month or two. And then it's like, Oh, these are basically the same thing. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:23:27] Yeah. And if you have low traffic generally focus on, so there is no more fold anymore. Anyone who says, Oh, it has to be above the fold. Doesn't exist anymore to a degree, but focus on  that hero image that above the fold, what is your H1? What is the iconography that you're using? When people first visit the page, that's going to be your biggest win because that's the first experience that people are going to have with that page. . Rob Walling: [00:23:52] Very cool, sir.   We are almost at time , but do you have any other thoughts before we close? Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:23:59] I think that I think, especially in the developer community and in the founder community, I think there's a lot of people who think, Oh, marketing, I don't get it. Or, Oh, it's a dirty word kind of thing. I I'm a developer by trade. Um, I kind of fell into marketing and. The biggest successes I've had with marketing is thinking about marketing the same way I think about development. Where it's not a miasma of things I'm going to do. I break it down, just like we were talking about with those funnels of, we have a start condition, we have an end condition and we have a number of steps, processes that are going to go through everything. And we just put a number on each one. How is this one doing? What is the value of people who have done this step? What is the dollar value of people who've done this step? And just writing out. I have flow charts for every single marketing campaign we have and we put a dollar value to every single thing, and that lets us easily see where our holes are. And we can really look at it in a more scientific and structured way than I think a lot of people who are not. In that marketing world, uh, realize that you can do. Rob Walling: [00:25:08] Yep. I agree. I'm also a developer engineer from, most of my life. And that's how I view marketing too. I've always viewed it as a technical marketer, a left brain marketer where the numbers in the funnels made sense to my brain. Um, I've heard marketing described as math and human psychology.   the math was easy. The math is very natural. And I think if you're a developer lean into the math and learn enough of the human psychology, you mean when, when you say human psychology, it's how people make buying decisions, the stages they go through, , what copywriting is and what sales copy actually looks like.  These are the things I had to learn and I read all the, I mean, this was 2005 to 2011. When I was teaching myself this, it was a, there was no startup writing on this. There was no CopyHackers at the time. It was all the info marketer guys. It was that. Dan Kennedy and that whole crew, which I don't love a lot of the stuff they do from personal perspective. But, but cause they're just too hard driving sales and it's money, money, money. And I feel like some of them like trick people into buying stuff. Um, but they know copywriting and they know persuasion. And that was a big thing that I think is kind of the other side of it. Totally. And then you can learn from them and apply it in a way that feels comfortable to you. And that's all it is. This is not, it's not so complicated. It's not black magic.  the first copy I wrote was crap. Didn't convert very well. And the 10th, , landing page I built was really good, you know, and it's just, it's just learning like the first hello world program you write sucks. And then  that 20th  code you ship is much better. Sir, Thank you so much for joining me on MicroConf On Air today. Yeah. Your Twitter handle is,  I feel like I'm going to pronounce it wrong cause it's Japanese. Isn't it. is @harisenbon79. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:26:38] Very close.@harisenbon79. Rob Walling: [00:26:41] Got it. Okay. @harisenbon79 You used to live in Japan for those who don't know. So thanks again for coming on the show, man. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:26:49] Thanks so much, Rob. I had a great time. Rob Walling: [00:26:52] Absolutely. All right. And a couple of housekeeping items as we check out. Thank you so much to Hey and Stripe. There are a flagship partners with MicroConf for the year and they make everything. We do just a little easier and we always appreciate being partners up with them. MicroConf masterminds are happening. Round two of our matching go to MicroConfmasterminds.com. I believe it's plural, or you can just head to, MicroConf not common and search around for masterminds. If you haven't already had to youtube.com/microphone, it's scribe, and we'll see you next Wednesday. Same time, same place. MicroConfOnAir.com. Have a good week.


10 Sep 2020

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056: Understanding The Health Of Your Business Using KPIs with Keith Perhac

Say it Online

Are you using the right metrics to track and plan for growth?  With so much data at your fingertips these days, it can be difficult to know what you should be tracking, what to do with the numbers you find, and how to leverage that data for growth. Understanding KPIs (Key Performance Indicators) and how to utilize them is a powerful tool for any business strategy, and in this episode we’re breaking it down for you. Keith Perhac is the founder of SegMetrics, software that helps you get 100% clarity on where your leads come from, how they act, and how much your marketing is REALLY worth.  Keith is also the author of "The 90-Minute Guide to Building Marketing Funnels That Convert," a top-down guide that walks you through every step of setting up and optimizing your automated marketing funnels.   In this episode, Keith dives into how to choose the right KPIs for your business, and how to utilize those metrics to set and achieve new goals. Tune in to learn: How to start tracking KPIs for your business Ways to identify and align the right KPIs with your unique business needs and goals How to set expectations with your team to track their KPIs Connect with Keith at segmetrics.io/hi/say-it-online for 30% off, and on Twitter @harisenbon79.  For the budgeting tool Keith and I go crazy over, check out YNAB.


5 Aug 2020

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Streamlining Client Communication with Keith Perhac – Episode 35

The Agency Profit Podcast

About Keith:Keith Perhac is the founder of SegMetrics.io, a Saas company helping course authors, product creators, and self-funded businesses increase their revenue from their existing traffic.Unlike most marketers, Keith is also a developer, which facilitated his transition from DevelopYourMarketing.com to “the dark side” (AKA SaaS). This gives him an innate understanding of two key things: the marketing strategies required to grow, and how to implement said strategies for your business.Currently, his online software helps marketers and agency owners get 100% clarity on where their leads come from, how they act, and how much their marketing is really worth.In his spare time, you can find Keith buried in Dungeons & Dragons.SegMetrics.io and How it StartedLike all good software solutions, it was born from an itch that needed scratching.Keith started out as an agency owner, and had been doing funnel optimization and campaign optimization for a number of digital marketers. As his client base grew, so did the time spent on pulling the required numbers for the reporting process.“Pulling numbers is not what I got into marketing for… Understanding what to do with those numbers is why I got into marketing.”Numbers are vitally important to any business, particularly marketing, yet Keith and his colleagues were finding it to be a “huge time suck.” Being developers by nature, they committed to finding a more functional way forward.So, they built the first version internally, based on the premise of “Hey, can we drop these numbers into adatabase and then calculate them automatically?” As it turns out, you can! The Importance of Client Communication and ReportingThink about it… a client comes to work with you because they need guidance in a certain area. The more communication you have with a client, the more you can alleviate any lurking fears regarding your expertise in your field.“The number one thing I’ve found working with agencies, and things that we did internally, was to create a process. The stronger the communication process, the more confidence a client has in your agency.”Conversely, it’s worth bearing in mind that over-communication can have the opposite effect. It indicates a lack of structure and a certain malleability. When a client feels they should take control of a project, you’re in danger of losing your cache – that being your expertise.There are other pitfalls leading from that. For example, you could find yourself dealing with items that aren’t in the project scope; fixing up “little things” that need tweaking, and – as Keith attests – “suddenly, you’re a development shop instead of a marketing agency.”So, a set process is key to working well with clients from the offset. You can start this by ensuring…Every step is documented for both partiesEach step is part of a set process, showcasing how things are progressing/improvingEvery step then has a subsequent actionThis way, the client never feels in the dark, constantly wondering ‘What’s going on next?!’ Value Communication During COVID-19Right now, it’s more critical than ever to be communicating value to clients. It can actually be bad for your clients to cut you right now if you’re driving results for them, particularly online.“If you can keep revenue the same, or keep it from tanking, that’s your agency fee paid for right there. That’s the value you need to show and that’s what we try to do with our funnel optimizations.”You need to show them you’re not a cost, but an investment and a value-add, and you do that through your concise communication and reporting process.“Look, here’s what we did this last month, here’s where you would have been without us, and here’s where you are with us. We’re only taking 5% of all the improvements we’ve made; so we’re definitely worth keeping on.”Set processes creates clarity, continuously reinforcing the value the client is getting. This, in turn, creates client confidence that you’re producing results. Streamlining Your Client Communication ProcessKeeping that pertinent word in mind (value), how should agencies think about setting up a process for communicating with clients that’s going to be efficient, streamlined and not take up a ton of their time?Depending on how much the client is paying you, create a cadence of a weekly call and/or email that updates them on where the stats are.When Keith signed a new client via his first company, he would follow a set schedule – core for clients that turned out to be a good fit.“They got a packet, a list saying, ‘go do this now. Go do this, go do this. This is going to give us all the information for our kickoff call…’ Then, give them a list of everything you’re going to do in that first six weeks – because it’s a process, right?!”A simple example of such a process should go a little something like this…Schedule weekly calls to review results, plus the next steps requiredHost meetings every six weeks to discuss strategy, and roadmap for the subsequent six weeksEnsure there’s a meeting two weeks before the renewal of the contractNever underestimate the importance of inserting yourself into the strategic decision-making process Automating Streamlined ReportingWhen should you consider automating the processes that feel like they might be quite tricky to streamline? According to Keith, there is one golden rule:“Never try to use software to automate the first time around, it is such a bad idea.”Instead, implement the below process before attempting to automate:Start with a paper and/or checklist of the Standard Operating ProceduresGive that SOP to someone who preferably hasn’t undertaken this process before; their different POV should be able to highlight any holes and redundancies (plus it means you’re delegating and possibly putting your time towards something more valuable!)Once that SOP is solid and proven, then you can work on automating parts that are consistently the same Your Take-Away…By way of summary, find ways of building more value into your relationships with your clients during COVID-19. Now is as good a time as any, according to Keith…“You are going to see a decline in revenue, that’s a given; don’t panic, take that extra time to make your business stronger… Now is the time.”So, take the imminent lull in customer interaction to refine your processes and, in turn, improve your value to both your existing and future clients.Go plug those holes! That way, you’ll be better prepared for whatever lies ahead… Want to see more of Keith? Follow him @…Twitter @harisenbon79LinkedIn – Keith’s personal pageLinkedIn – SegMetrics company pageSegMetrics.io Did you learn anything new from this episode? If so, let us know in the comments below – we value your feedback! Our next instalment of #APP, on June 10th, will see us chat with John Doherty. To view our previous blog with Alex Glenn, make your way here… Agency Profitability Tool KitIf you’re looking for more resources to help you improve your agency’s profitability, then check out the Agency Profitability Tool Kit – it’s full of the same templates and checklists we’ve used with consulting clients to help them improve their profitability by over 100% in under 60 days.Download the Agency Profitability Toolkit!Get the same templates & guides we use with consulting clients to get them results fast.DOWNLOAD FREE


10 Jun 2020

Most Popular

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Marketing Your Way to Success in Trying Times with Keith Perhac

Agency Ahead by Traject

Keith Perhac knows a thing or two about building a success story when times are tough. He founded SegMetrics and Develop Your Marketing in 2008, right smack dab in the middle of the housing crisis.Many of his clients are infopreneurs, bloggers, and online coaches. You may have heard of some of them, like travel blogger Nomadic Matt, natural health guru Wellness Mama, and I Will Teach You To Be Rich. He also helps name-brand clients like Toyota and Circle K, along with a whole host of other, smaller individuals and companies.Many of his clients also got their start when times were tough. If you're looking for some encouragement or some insight into building your own troubled times success story, you've come to the right place.Here are the highlights: (1:11) Why mentality matters. (3:55) Where the opportunities are. (9:29) Advice for individuals looking to start an agency or who want to become solopreneurs. (11:01) What's going on in the ad world, and the real ROI of content marketing. (14:46) Getting started with SEO. (16:34) The one thing you want to avoid if you want to avoid failure right now. (20:09) Ways agencies should be talking to their clients.  (23:06) Keith's causes. Looking for the quick takeaways? We've got you covered.Why mentality matters"The 2008 crisis was when I started running the agency. And that's when my info-product and personality-based clients were all rocketing to success. They went from doing 10K to 100K to a million to 5 million to 20 million a year in like 3 years. When on paper, the economy was in the gutter."In short, it's important not to panic, even as people all around you are telling you that it's the worst economy since the Great Depression. There are always opportunities. Keith says that during a time like this everyone's looking to improve, to get higher, to improve their status.Yet the ways you seek to improve your status aren't nearly as important as the thoughts running around in your head. "There's a fearful mentality and there's a success mentality," says Keith. "There's, okay, I'm just going to struggle and do it."Keith does acknowledge there are people who really can't reach certain opportunities, who can't go online, who can't change their business models. Yet certainly many companies who were brick and mortar just three months ago are now finding creative ways to pivot and transition, and with the right mindset you may be able to find your way to come out on top as well. Where the opportunities areKeith says the info-product industry is really starting to look just about as successful during this crisis as it looked during the last crisis. "The fully info-product, fully-online business is growing, especially coaching, or anything that's building finances, or building for the next step."He warns "time-wasting" info products have kind of fallen by the wayside, but is seeing lots of success with:  How Do I Start an Online Business? How Do I Become a Coach?  How do I Help Others? He says people are spending more money, and the personality brands are the ones that are advertising right now. "All the big advertisers pulled out. You can't advertise Applebees right now. No one's buying a new car right now. This means that companies like ours that couldn't go toe to toe with some of those bigger companies that were eating up all the ad spend can now get in there. Our click-thru rate has doubled. Our ad spend, we doubled it, and not only did our CTR go through the roof, but our leads have increased."One of his clients did a webinar, and 70% of the people on the webinar went right ahead and made a purchase. "People who have been furloughed, who have been fired, they're sitting at home and they're thinking about what's next. They're asking themselves: What can I do so this does not happen again? What can I do to protect my family, to protect my revenue, to protect my way of life if this happens again? Yeah, when this is over, I can find a new job, but is that where I want to go back to even? All of our preconceptions about what day-to-day life is, and what society means, are now being challenged. Not only do we have a lot of time to search for those answers, but there's a lot of answers out there to be had, now." Advice for individuals looking to start an agency or launch a solopreneur businessUnless you've got a passion for technical digital skills, Keith does caution you against going there just because it looks lucrative. Though he does note that if you are passionate about those things, you've got a lot of time to learn, and "being able to understand how technology and the web works is like a superpower." Yet in the short term, he says he thinks ads are the best place to start, because, as mentioned, they're cheap now.He says to strike while the iron is hot though. "The New York Times just ran an article about it, so don't expect [these prices] to last forever. Be aware everyone else is going down that route as well. Maybe even next month, that advantage is going to dry up." See: Even Google and Facebook May Face an Ad Slump to read the Times article. Even YouTube ads may be up for grabs, and for a lot less. "Mazda's not advertising. Subaru's not advertising. Content creators [on YouTube] are getting no money because there's no advertising. That's good for us because we're advertising and have a lot more opportunity to get that out. But at the same time, that's not going to last forever." The ROI of content marketingKeith says he's a huge proponent of SEO and content. "When you just do ads, you're paying for every single lead. Then something happens and you can't advertise anymore."He says ads are a good short-term strategy, but content is the real long-term winner."I've had clients that had written articles 5 years ago that still bring in leads. And each of those leads is worth $1. It's a free lead. It's an article that someone finds organically or is backlinks. They look at it. We get maybe 5,000 of those a month. For writing an article. That doesn't stop. It doesn't stop if I stop putting money in. Other than Google deciding they hate us there's not much that's going to take that away from us."In other words, content efforts compound in value. You don't even necessarily have to go back and update them. You also might not have to overthink them."I have an article I hate-wrote a few years ago. Facebook was changing around the way they were doing their ad platforms and their URL parameters, and they were breaking stuff left and right. I just wrote this really angry, angry post. Two years later it's our #1 post. It brings in like 1000 to 2000 leads per month. Not all those convert, but that's a lot of traffic for something I hate-wrote at 2 AM."Getting started with SEOSEO can be hard, even experts like Keith struggle to predict what will actually produce results. It can also take time for the results to show, just as with content marketing. Keith encourages you to just keep writing articles. "At the beginning of SEO, a lot of it is like a shotgun. You just need to spray it out there and see what's going to work."He says once something resonates, you can build entire content ecosystems around just one or two articles that really take off. You can write more in-depth content about really popular subjects because you know that content converts. You know that content brings traffic in. Avoid this if you want to avoid failure"If I try to reduce and shrink the business, I'm going to fail. I'm seeing all my clients, all my people that SegMetrics works with, anyone that is shrinking, and trying to stop and hold back, they're missing out. Because a lot of the agencies are going gung-ho and getting more clients."Bottom line: If you can afford to keep advertising, don't pull back on your advertising and marketing. You want to go as strong as ever because there's space in the market to stake a claim.Keith stresses that there are a lot of opportunities right now. "I've gone through two recessions now. The first Dot Com bust. The housing crisis. The last time we went through this, the chaff all sank down, but the people who are succeeding and took advantage of it, man! And they're still strong today."Again, Keith did acknowledge there are socioeconomic factors that can hold people back, this isn't a matter of blaming victims. It's just a matter of understanding that everything isn't doom and gloom, everything isn't necessarily terrible for everyone, and there may be opportunities that you personally can find if you keep your spirits up and look for them.  Ways agencies should be talking to their clientsKeith has plenty of advice for agencies who have to handhold panicky brands because he does it himself every summer."Sales always dry up in the summer. The affiliates are on vacation. Your main customer base is on vacation. Sales go dry in the summer and they come back in October."He says he always encourages clients to know this, be ready, and to use the time to build a foundation. Fix all the things that needed fixing at launch that you didn't have time to fix. Create new marketing campaigns and make sure it's all done. Go through the data. Handle everything that went on your "when I have time" to-do list. "But a huge percentage of people don't do that. They panic. It's so funny because I'll have these conversations in May. Hey, sales are going down next month, here's what we're going to do to prep. And they're like yes. Totally agree. Awesome. Let's do this. June comes and they're like, we didn't make any money, aaaaah! They start churning and working harder for less return, and it's actually worse for the company."Yet in spite of this tendency, he's learned to talk clients through it, and he says you can use similar methods during this downturn."It's important for agencies, when they talk to their clients, to say: look. We understand. This is a downturn. It's going to be hard. But now is the time to prep for when it gets better. It's not going to be bad forever. We have all these opportunities."Keith also really stresses that positioning matters. "Agencies need to make sure they are not seen as a cost vector. Paying us does not cost you money. Paying us is an investment in getting more money later down the road."He says this has been, in talking to other agencies, the biggest differentiator between people who are keeping, or even getting, more clients, and people who are losing their clients. "Are you seen as a cost vector? Or are you seen as a lever to success?"What’s your right now cause?Keith's not focused on charities right now, but he is focused on local businesses, especially restaurants, who really can't go 100% virtual. "We used to never eat out. We now eat out 2-3 times a week, meaning we're doing pick-up because we want to support the businesses around us so they can have at least some of the benefits we can."So true, and what a delicious way to help out! Bon appetite, Keith, and bon appetite to all of you agency owners out there. Get a full stomach for the opportunity hunt ahead.Connect with Keith Perhac Websites: Segmetics.io and  Develop Your Marketing Twitter LinkedIn


26 May 2020

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Epsiode 020 - How to Increase Revenue from Your Existing Traffic with Keith Perhac

Digital Agency Insiders

Hey Insiders! I’m back! This is Tabitha Thomas with our featured guest Keith Perhac. We’ll be discussing today how our guest started and grew his technical marketing agency after teaching English in Japan for years. Keith started his journey as a freelancer in Japan, working for info product marketers in the US and Europe. He also shares his exciting experience while he was living in Japan and the Japanese work ethic that was instilled in him.


14 Apr 2020

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141: Choosing between a side project and your agency with Keith Perhac

The Digital Agency Show | Helping Agency Owners Transform Their Business Mindset to Increase Prices, Work Less, and Grow Profits

Keith Perhac is reaching the third (but probably not final) stage in his business. Originally a developer based near Nagoya, Japan, he built a million-dollar technical marketing agency that worked with some of the top digital marketers. Now, he's taken that knowledge and built SegMetrics, one of the top analytics tools created specifically for marketers.


3 Mar 2020

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Episode 61: Finding Success as a Freelancer, Agency Owner and SaaS Entrepreneur with Keith Perhac

The Solopreneur Grind Podcast

In this episode, I talk to Keith Perhac about: - How Keith started out his career as an employee, turned freelancer, turned agency owner - What he learned and what led to his success across multiple business models - What he recommends to those getting started as a freelancer, agency owner and SaaS entrepreneur And much more. ----- Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoy it, join the SG email list to get more business insight and content right to your inbox every week: https://www.solopreneurgrind.com/join/ ----- Find Keith Perhac on Google or at https://segmetrics.io/


1 Mar 2020

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067 - Where Is Your Data With Keith Perhac

Get Automated Podcast With Kelsey Bratcher

Kelsey Bratcher and his guest Keith Perhac Founder of Segmetrics. This episode is all about data. Why is it important to collect data on your sales process, how to insure that your data is valid, what can you do to leverage that data now that you have it. They also dig into custom direct mail and how to shake things up by going old school. Also as a bonus Keith and his team cooked up a killer offer if you want to sample the power of Segmetrics. Be sure to check it out at https://segmetrics.io/hi/get-automated/

1hr 27mins

24 Sep 2019

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Episode 141: Launch Best Practices with Keith Perhac

UI Breakfast: UI/UX Design and Product Strategy

"Build it, and they will come" could not be a bigger lie: an effective launch is crucial to your product success. Our guest today is Keith Perhac, founder of SegMetrics. You'll learn how to turn a few random emails into a cohesive launch experience, "prime the pump" for your product, and measure the outcome — so that you can optimize and iterate. Podcast feed: subscribe to https://feeds.simplecast.com/4MvgQ73R in your favorite podcast app, and follow us on iTunes, Stitcher, or Google Play Music. Show Notes SegMetrics — Keith's product Launch — a book by Jeff Walker explaining the Product Launch Formula (PLF) CartHook — a well-known upsell tool How Sean D’Souza Changed Everything I Know About Pricing — Jane's article about pricing tiers Neil Patel's Digital Marketing Blog SegMetrics Blog Wirecutter — a recommendations website Patrick McKenzie — a famous software consultant we're talking about Episode 100: Leveling Up with Patrick McKenzie The Personal MBA — website & book by Josh Kaufman Develop Your Marketing — Keith's website Head over to segmetrics.io/loves/uibreakfast to get your 15% lifetime discount Today's Sponsor This episode is brought to you by Airtable. What would you make if you had tools designed for the way you like to create? Airtable gives you the freedom and structure to design a workflow that fits your product needs. This tool can handle any content you throw at it: screenshots, long text notes, to-do lists, and so much more. Receive $50 in credit by signing up at airtable.com/uibreakfast Interested in sponsoring an episode? Learn more here. Leave a Review Reviews are hugely important because they help new people discover this podcast. If you enjoyed listening to this episode, please leave a review on iTunes. Here's how.


27 Jun 2019